Sex and BPD wife... hot and cold. How to handle?

[Husband321]

Wife and I have been off and on during our courting phase and even marriage.

She always was the one to leave... .

Then, usually a day or two later she proclaims extreme love for me. And to this she ties sex.  How I am her best ever... .how she wants to be extremely submissive.  Anytime I ever want sex or anything sexual, she is all mine.  And she comes up with many kinky ideas as well.

What usually happens is this is great for about two weeks. Then all of a sudden every morning or night is a stomach ache. A back ache.  Head ache. She might start a silly fight. Touching her leads to her just pulling away. She then acts mad at me no matter what my reaction to her sexual refusal is.

Do they usually KNOW they will become cold sexually and do all this to manipulate you? What is the proper reaction on my part when she does just turn cold?

In a healthy marriage how often should a partner be denied sex?

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[JoeBPD81]

Hi there,

I know this is frustrating, even the more open minded and "evolved" people... .we get affected emotionaly when it comes to sex. Mainly, when we are denied, it feels like rejection. But also, when we do it without being too much into it (for whatever reason), and we think "but it's OK, it is fun, and it costs me nothing... ." eventually we also feel used, or worse. We can like it and think about sex as a fun activity without much ties to emotion, and still, it ends up affecting us.

For people with BPD everythig is estremelly emotional. Not just a bit, painfully strong emotions. "Touching makes everything a 1000 times worse" I've been told that, and also I've read a similar line in "The Buddha and the Borderline".

It's really complicated for them, for all of us is, but we can go without thinking about it too much, they can't. Sometimes they are ashamed of simply being human and having needs. Specially if they have a sexual trauma in the past, or abuse that they relate to phisical contact... .It is very difficult for her, and the key is listening and comunicating as much as you can. So you would know her and avoid conflict.

Nothing in the relationship must be deal in the basis of "I have the right to... .". She can deny sex as much as she needs to. Same as you. Your job is to make her feel safe. And to comunicate that anything she needs is understandable, and OK. It's not easy.

She could, or not, be aware of what happens, but I don't think it is manipulation. Talk to her, when things are relaxed. And tell us how it goes.

Good luck!

[isilme]

Awareness is often not right in the forefront of BPD actions.  By the the time we see the actions, they have been justified and reinforced emotionally several times in their minds first. 

Yes, it IS a form of manipulation, but in the BPD mind, they are just acting normal and you deserve everything.  All anger, frustration, and bad feelings must be projected onto you so they can absolve themselves from any blame for their feelings or their actions. 

BPD is both afraid of intimacy and abandonment.  Sex can be used to pull you in, but also to push you away.

Finding a balance so the seesaw swings less wildly as they go through these cycles is our challenge.  Our reactions often affect how far the seesaw swings, and sadly, as the more emotionally capable and honest person, it's up to us to modify how we react to make sure we don't pour fuel on the fire.  That's not to say we can directly control them.  But as we learn to react differently, they have to modify their reactions.  If they expect us to argue back, giving them "permission" to yell at us, and then we don't, we remove ourselves from the situation, they are stuck having to manage those emotions on their own - the very skill they need to learn.  It's a long process, but if you can look at it as a form of disability, it seems to help me at least, take a little less hurt from some of the comments that come my way during dysregulations.  Typing it out here is also a big help. 

[Hmcbart]

In a healthy marriage how often should someone be denied sex?

That's a great question but probably not the right question.  I think how often you're denied really depends on how often you're willing to accept.  JoeBPD81 is correct on his statement "she can deny sex as much as she needs to". You also have the right to say no, even if it's very unlikely that you would.

 I learned that she can say no and come up with all kinds of reasons to justify it. 
Just like you, I've heard headaches, stomachs aches, and also had her pick fights to use against me later.  The very few times I have said no have lead to more withholding and anger on her part so it's difficult to actually turn her down.  That said, I don't get the opportunity to say no very often since sex has only happened 4 times this year. It's a struggle to feel the way you are feeling. I know your pain very well. For me, as much as I hate it, I'm not going to cheat or leave so there isn't a lot I can really do to change it. 

I do believe it's manipulation and I believe they know they are doing it.  They may not understand why but they do know it.  Of course that's my opinion and nothing more. 

I personally believe in a healthy relationship that both partners are actively trying to make this a part of the relationship and try to fulfill each other's needs as much as they can.  Unfortunately in an unhealthy relationship it is usually the one who wants to have sex as a part of the marriage that will have to  give in to the one who doesn't.  That's been my experience for the last 15 years.  So it's just a matter of what we are  willing to accept. 

[HelenaHandbasket]

I agree with Hmcbart that there's probably no one-size-fits-all answer to that question. My husband and I have only turned each other down a handful of times in all the years we've been together, usually because of illness or tiredness. But we're very well matched in libido.  I have a friend who hasn't had sex with her husband in almost a year, and according to her he's okay with that. Different arrangements work for different couples.

I think it depends on the libidos and expectations of both partners. Obviously no one is ever required to have sex if they don't want to, and both partners have to realize and respect that. At the same time, for most people sex is an important part of intimacy, and absent any trauma or medical issues I think it's important for both partners to do their best to accommodate that. But let me be clear--I'm referring to a HEALTHY marriage here, because the dynamics in an unhealthy one are TOTALLY different. It's very hard, if not impossible, to feel desire when you're being mistreated.

So with regard to the healthy marriage referenced in your question: I think we've all had sex when we weren't in the mood, and what I find is that even if I'm not raring to go at the beginning, I'll often get into it once we get started and I'm always glad I did. Provided there's no abuse going on (psychological/emotional or physical) and provided it's a good relationship where both partners feel loved and respected most of the time, I think you could argue that it's part of loving someone to sometimes have sex when you're not in the mood to do so.  I'm sure my husband has done this for me a few times too.  Sex is a big part of a lot of people's "love language," and in my experience that's especially true for men. I always try to keep that in mind when I'm not feeling super in the mood but my husband is.

That said, of course you should never make someone feel bad about saying no, and I don't think anyone is *entitled* to sex with their partner. Sex is a gift and it has to be freely given.

[BowlOfPetunias]

It is of course true that spouses can deny sex whenever they want.  The other side that is not being discussed here is that the other spouse can (and should) take this into account when deciding whether or not it is worth continuing the relationship.  I am not saying that Husband321 should leave his wife.  What needs to be clear, however, is that it is OK for him to factor how her withholding affects him into his decision of whether or not he wants to remain in the marriage.

Consent is required whenever we have sex, even inside a marriage.  But we also have a legitimate choice of whether or not we consent to continue the marriage based on our own needs and how we are being treated.

Back in college, my extremely BPD ex-girlfriend tried to lure me back with sex while I was breaking up with her ("Let's make love one last time."  I did not consent because I recognized it would create a sense of obligation for me to stay.  Indeed, I am sure she would have used it against me ("You made love to me and now you are leaving me?  How could you?"  Saying no was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Obviously, most of the people on this board have made the choice to remain in their relationships with their BPD partners.  But none of us are OBLIGATED to do so.

[Hmcbart]

I think Bowlofpetunias is spot on.  I have made the mistake of expecting my wife to change so many times that it's laughable.  I have asked, begged, pleaded, and threatened to leave over the lack of sex.  None of my actions have helped my situation.  The last one, threatening to leave, is especially bad.  That got turned around to her saying I am willing to give up on 22 years together over sex.  Even when I tried to reverse it and ask her if she is willing to give up on a 22 year relationship by continuing to withhold sex, it didn't matter. The damage was done and her mind was made up that I was an evil mean hurtful person. 

I unfortunately had drawn a line in the sand that I wasn't willing to stand my ground on and she torn me apart.  The fact that I caved only reenforced the fact that I will ultimately accept what she does or I'm the case of sex, does not do.  This is now such a loaded topic for us that I just steer clear of it.  I already learned that to her a compromise is meaningless as she will tell me what I need to hear to keep me from leaving.  She talks a great game but has zero follow through.

So I would try to talk about it before ever making any statements about this being an issue you would leave over.  I don't know if there is any way to talk about it where both people can reach a mtual agreement, not when one of the people have limited ability to see things from a different prospective.   For me, my two boys are the biggest reason I continue to cave on this issue.  Each of us have our own reasons for staying.  I love her dearly, but if we didn't have the kids, my actions would probably be different.   

[HelenaHandbasket]

Absolutely true--I think it's important for spouses/significant others to talk about their needs and expectations, ideally before marriage and then again if a problem arises in this area. If your needs aren't being met, you can absolutely leave.

Hmcbart, I think it's unfair of your wife to accuse you of throwing away your marriage "over sex." It makes it sound as though you're being shallow and hedonistic, and it ignores the fact that sex is really important in a relationship. For most of us, anyway. Sex is a big part of life for most of us, and it's one of the main ways we show love and affection in a long-term relationship. To say that you're throwing your marriage away over sex is an overly simplistic assessment, in my view--and it absolves her of responsibility.

[roberto516]

Based on my own experience this exact difference was probably one of the things that put a fracture between us. I am a very affectionate person who, admittedly, likes to show my love through sex. Naturally, in the beginning it was frequent with a lot of passion from her. After the idealization phase it became so mechanical. I would try to flirt with her, make advances but she would push me away and so I would stop. I'd ask her at time and she would tell me she was tired or wasn't in the mood. The one time I did it to her she felt such a betrayal and hurt at probable rejection that i wouldn't do it again... .not that I'd ever refuse her. But yes, as some have commented, it kinda put her in control. She'd ask from the bedroom ":)o you wanna make love?" We'd do it with very little affection involved and then we'd get dressed and off she'd go to watch tv or something. She was the first woman I ever was with who didn't want to do some kind of cuddling afterwards. It was very robotic for the most part. I also guess the kicker was that during arguments she'd always bring up "We aren't intimate." I used to think to myself "Well I'm a guy and if you would have got rejected 8 out of 10 times wouldn't you be less likely to ask or make any advances too?"

Heck, she'd ask me during sex "Will you take me to the movies?" or "You're gonna take me shopping right?" She'd laugh about it but during one recycle she promised me sexual favors for each school assignment I wrote for her. I mean, in my relationship, what is that other than a form of prostitution?

And she does have the insight. Once she said "I understand that intimacy is how you connect to someone." but there wasn't much of a change in her desire to try more than once every 2 weeks or so. Combine that with being on anti-depressents for 20 years and daily benzo use I guess the sex drive was also non-existent. Maybe just a show in the idealization phase to really lock me in?

These are just my experiences with it. I relate all too well and maybe this can help you see that this isn't something you have struggled with all alone. And yes, if intimacy is important to you than there is nothing wrong with an evaluation of the relationship. BUT it might be beneficial to have a real heart to heart first just talking about your feelings on the matter without casting any blame or responsibility on your partner. Speaking from the heart about you could help or show you something different.

[JoeBPD81]

Each combination of two people has its own complications. We know our partner has a disability on the emotional department. If our partner was in a wheelchair we wouldn't get mad at all about they don't wanting to take a walk with us.

I think this is an area where it is almost impossible not to judge. We "nons" easily get very emotional over this, very hurt, offended, our ego and self esteem hurt... .So we can't analize this from a "wisemind". We can have a calm idea, but once we start thinking about the problems, the time we've been without intimacy, the things that have been said... .We get hotter and hotter inside with resentment, and with the certainty that we've been treated unfairly. We disregulate, and our hormones cheer our disregulated side to go bonkers.

On top of that, we have to negociate this with another person that is even quicker in getting to a disregulated state. So it is very very hard to reach a point where comunication is effective. We are too close to the canvas to see the big picture. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first that feels like this and it is in rare "wise" moments that I think I might be looking at things in a wrong way.

In my case, sex is a basic instinct, right, but survival is even more basic. Half the time my GF has no interest in life at all. She doesn't even eat unless she is half asleep and then she can't help it, many times she eats while sleep-walking. You add that she has been molested as a child, and raped, and in an abusive marriage for years... .And I wonder at how she could ever want to have sex again, and that it is a miracle how much she enjoys it with me (when I have the luck).

Maybe I can put myself in her place because before I was in a marriage for 16 years and I had lost interest about sex. There were things that hurt me emotionaly, and I kept dismising them, and kept having sex because it was "my duty" and it could be fun, sometimes it was great, sometimes I wanted to leave the house in the middle, or right after. I didn't want to say no, but I kept hoping she wasn't interested either, or that she wouldn't realize how long had it been since the last time. In time, it turned into a sad thing for me. I thought I was a jerk, a bad husband, old, a pervert for still feel attraction towards other women... .You name it.  The point is, a very small trauma can get very big in your head, and after a while, you just don't want to face it. The guilt about not wanting to have sex with my wife, make me want it even less.

It almost never is so simple as "I'm tired" or "I have a headache". We need to set a path towards knowing what it is that is hurting our partner, and blocking her/his desire and ability to enjoy that with us. And then show them that we are on the same team. Not one easy step on that path. Of course we can chose to just leave. But if we stay, we gotta learn what brings us closer to what we want, and what is counter-productive. And to do that, we need to stop judging ourselves and them.

[Hmcbart]

Joe, I think that was very well said.

It really comes down to what we are willing to accept.