Detaching from Old Relationship, Staying Hopeful for New Relationship?

[lighthouse9]

Hey good people,

I hope this post finds you well, and if not well, then aware that you are not alone and that you are seen (or at least heard, in this instance).

I've debated between posting on the detaching board or on this one, and decided to stay here for a bit.

Here's my struggle:

I know that I need to detach from this relationship. I know that it is unhealthy and that there is no going back. And even though I'd love to have some of our moments back, I know that I'm just trying to bargain with myself and denying how shattered the relationship and my dreams for us are at the moment.

For anyone who has ever gone through a therapeutic separation, did you detach from the old relationship first, or during the separation? We haven't agreed to do this kind of separation yet (though it is my desire, I would very much like to see us work, under certain conditions), but I've been aware of the very real ways that I'm also going through the grief process and even the detachment process.

I don't want my old marriage back, but, I would like a new marriage with my wife. I would like a chance to build new memories and work through challenges together with new skillsets. I know I can do my part - and she would have to commit to hers, but I'm wondering if in order to have a new marriage, does one need to detach completely from the old one?

Let me hear your thoughts on this one, especially those of you who have had some time away from your partner, or got through the divorce threats, move outs, etc. Our brief no contact period ends tonight and I'm struggling with some of my emotions right now, trying to get my center back before we talk.

Thank you!

-L

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Wentworth is going through this exact same thing right now. He may be able to add some clarity to what you are experiencing.

I know that he has been through quite a bit in setting up a very good program for accountability with his partner, real life consequences, enlisting the help of others in a very specific manner, and requirements to show his W is making attempts at bettering herself.

What are your biggest fears for her return?

Just to make sure we are on the same page, do you mean do you need to thoroughly grieve for the old marraige before you can move on to the new?

[once removed]

the advice ive read, and the advice i have given is that it is best to consider the previous iteration of the relationship as "the old relationship", and any new iteration as "a new relationship".

its about approaching things entirely differently. sure, that involves a certain level and a certain kind of detachment.

i think the concept would be scary and painful to me. i dont think it has to be, exactly. its more about us, and our approach, and making room for change and better, healthier dynamics, and long term, that can really strengthen any relationship. youre both the same people, just ideally with a different approach. the memories and experiences dont evaporate.

this recent thread details the concept with all different kinds of relationships: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318951.30

is there anything on the agenda for the talk?

[Mutt]

Hi lighthouse9,



I’d like to join Tattered Heart and Once Removed welcome you. I know Skip has suggested some method my similar to Once Removed’s suggestion in the past with starting at ground zero, wipe the slate clean and start from that point forward. How long have you been married? How long have you seperated?  Is your W diagnosed with BPD? Do you have kids?

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9,

How did your talk go?  I've been separated from my wife for a little over three months.  Our situation may be a little unique.  I was quite attached even as I was filing a domestic violence restraining order.  When the order was served, I even offered to meet her in a local park to talk it through with her to soften the blow (uh, hello Wentworth?).  My heavy engineering of her recovery plan was in large part due to my attachment, and it was not until about one month into the restraining order when my I told my therapist how much trouble I was having with 4 hour text conversations with my wife that she helped me pull my head out of my *ss and get some distance.

I have gotten an astonishing amount of perspective on the relationship in the last 2 months, that I could never have gotten in the decades we were together.  I really do feel like I am able to evaluate it from the bottom up, and have a much better idea of what I'd be looking for in a "new" relationship.  Right now, my heart is saying I may not be able to recommit, but a huge part of that is the abuse of the last several years.  If we could have done this separation, say, four years ago, the results might have been different.  But one thing that I'll say is that it's important that the person with BPD be making serious changes.  My wife is in DBT training, and I've seen some good (if superficial for now) skills improvements.  Just my two cents, but if I were tearing a relationship down with a pwBPD and starting over, I wouldn't do it without DBT in the mix.  Have you read the links on this site about getting someone into DBT therapy?  If not, let me know and I can give you pointers.  For what it's worth, my wife is passionately committed to DBT, and feels supported rather than threatened by it.  The whole point of the "dialectical" in ":)BT" is synthesis of two opposing viewpoints -- acceptance on one hand, and the need for change on the other.  The "acceptance" part is critical to a pwBPD loaded with shame, and my wife's DBT therapist is a genius at making her feel accepted while inspiring her to change.

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey there,

Thanks for the replies!

Let me see if I can address them in order:

Hi Tattered Heart!

What are your biggest fears for her return?

That I can trust her again and that she would be here out of her desire to make things work, not out of a desire to make me happy and therefore have someone else directing her. I've been thinking a lot about how it's easy to think the idealization was the relationship, and not the more normal times. I'd have to know how to be in a relationship with her when not being idealized or devalued - which is one part her not swinging wildly between the two and another part me doing my work to not swing there with her. I slightly fear my ability to hold my center if she comes back, but that fear is less grounded. I'm doing my work and really believe that my work will guide me to a place of knowing if I can do this with her or not, if she does her work.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, do you mean do you need to thoroughly grieve for the old marriage before you can move on to the new?

Yes - the no contact period has given me access to some of the grief that was harder to access while she was around and I felt like we were in crisis mode. I think I've answered my own question here: there is no moving forward, with or without her, without dealing with my grief. She has acted unilaterally and her decisions have shattered the future we were building together, even if just temporarily shattered that future. I deserve to grieve that and it would be unhealthy for me to not grieve it.

Hi Mutt!

How long have you been married? Almost 3 years

How long have you separated?  Not long - she just moved out last Friday, a decision she made without me. She asked for a divorce about a month ago, but then left town for work and hasn't made much movement towards it (that I could see) while she was in town. I asked her to consider a month of therapy at a DBT place before deciding to file or not, just to get out of crisis before taking such a big step. She's gone back and forth wildly between saying "you're right, that makes sense" and yelling at me for not "giving" her a divorce. I've told her that she can file and that I won't fight her, but it's not what I want and therefore it's not my responsibility to make it happen. She comes home this weekend from another training, and leaves again in a few weeks, so we'll see if she's made any movement on that front. Could go either way with her - she tends to be a person who does what she says she's going to do.

Is your W diagnosed with BPD? No - but lots of undiagnosed in her family and lots of operating under the assumption that it is in her family. We've talked about it and in her clearer moments she has absolutely acknowledged that she's showing traits and has always struggled with those traits. I had my first session with a DBT trained BPD specialist last night and she affirmed my suspicions, without of course offering a diagnosis for someone not in her office. Her behavior is pretty classic case and her recent behavior, while so alarming, has at least pushed us to the point where it will be a lot harder to pretend like this stuff isn't happening. She could still go AWOL on me, with or without a divorce, but she really seems to be in that super distressful "something has to change" moment. I could be wrong, and it's out of my hands, but I'm hopeful.

Do you have kids? Nope - just two lovely kitties. She's taking one with her, since it bonded to her first when we got it and I totally support the idea of her having something to take care of, as much as I'm going to miss the little one. The older one was mine before we met and she's my baby.

Hi Once Removed!

Thanks for the link to that thread - I had read some of it before, but I was in such a different place, so I'm really grateful for the reminder that it exists. Detaching with love is really my goal right now.

There was no real agenda for the talk, but we've never really been out of contact intentionally except for when she was initially away at training for her job. This was more a trial period to take some of the pressure off for both of us to feel like things need to be "fixed" right now, and I asked for it in order to set a solid boundary that she can't continue to have fun, even flirty text convos with me during the day and then paint me black in the evening. I needed some space to mourn the loss that she actually did move out of our home, without any input from me, and I needed the space to feel angry about some of her behavior without dumping it on her. We set up last night as kind of a check in time, I think because we both realistically want to talk to each other, so going too long without contact might have been bad. I had a few logistical things to tell her that I was saving up (stuff about taxes, the house, etc), and the no contact made it easier for me to just make a list of those things instead of texting her those things as a way to get her to talk to me or to see how she was doing. Some of our good text message convos start like this - one of us texting something that seems like it has to be handled right now, when in reality it doesn't. It's part of the push/pull, so I'm trying to model what it looks like to be caring and interested while still having boundaries and taking the space needed for my emotions and processing.

Hi Wentworth!

I really enjoy your perspectives on this stuff - your love for your wife AND yourself/well-being really stand out in your writings. I can totally understand being attached while doing something like filling out a domestic violence restraining order. I told you a bit about my relationship with my ex, who sounds a lot like your current W, and could totally see myself doing the same thing. I'm trying to have better boundaries in this relationship, which means more time to do what you said - get perspective and think about what a "new" relationship would look like.

The talk went well? I think? We had a weird moment earlier in the day, where she texted that she might be late to our call because of a "stomach issue" and she was possibly going to go to urgent care. My heart immediately sank that maybe she's pregnant and entertaining the possibility of that was eye opening, because it's absolutely within the realm of possibilities that she could have gotten pregnant with her affair partner. I had a What the heck moment that made me realize where we're at - that I'm so on edge that her saying she's having a stomach issue immediately has me jumping to the possible conclusion that she's pregnant. I would never have thought like this with her before, but given the depths she went to with her lies recently I have a hard time not bracing for the worst in even the most benign things. Getting back to a point where I can trust her is going to take a ton of work.

The talk started out with us joking about a sandwich place we both like to go to, because I was eating one right before our call. It was good light humor, because she used to stop there (it's a 24 hour place) on the way home from escapades with her affair partner and buy me a sandwich to share with her when she got home. I called them her guilty sandwiches when I found out what was really going on, and she straight faced told me that she didn't buy them out of guilt, but that she was going to eat and knew I liked them so she bought me one, too. Again, eye opening - how could someone cheat on you and then nonchalantly buy you a sandwich because you like sandwiches and not make a connection between the two? I believe her though - she really was just buying me a sandwich. Odd, but insightful. Thus, when I joked about the sandwich I had just eaten it was kind of a peace offering and a way of saying "I get it, it's just a sandwich."

Then she told me all about her training and it was amazing to hear the woman I married back in her body. She was lighting up with excitement about the stuff she was learning, she was thinking about her future while using phrases like "this seems like a potential path for me, right now at least" and there were lots of "right now" phrases that were really good to hear from her - it's her new way of saying "I get it that I wildly get excited about things and change my mind." I do that, too, and I like having the freedom to say that something seems awesome right now and not have to commit to it long term.

She also told me she was taking a retreat of sorts while on her trip. These training trips tend to be work all day party all night in her organization, but she told me she was instead coming back to her hotel and working out, doing yoga, meditating, and going to bed early. I really want to believe her here - and the level of calm in her voice was quite believable. I had just come out of counseling with the DBT person and she volunteered that she was also getting a referral to go there, of her own accord, and that she is trying to start it before she leaves for her next long training and is even trying to find a place to do therapy while she's away at training. I was shocked and impressed. Again, I'll believe all of this when I see it, but it was really exciting to hear her thinking about it without me prompting or pressing her.

Then we talked a little bit of logistics, set up our next no contact period (a few more days), and had a little talk about the things we needed to do when she came by to get the cat. I'm already a bit anxious about what's coming next (will she bring up divorce? will she dysregulate again?), but last night was hopeful. I didn't hear anything in her voice or the conversation that said "I want to try this again with you," but I also didn't hear anything to suggest otherwise, though she is the queen of omitting important things from conversations. I'm just hopeful she can step back for a few months and do her work, without having to think about filing for divorce or not, so I can do the same. The divorce feels rushed to me and like another one of her impulsive decisions, but I know I can't keep her in a marriage.

Wentworth, I'd love to hear more about your success getting your wife into DBT - and maybe we can connect too over some of your revelations during the separation.

All the best and thanks again everyone,

-L

[Radcliff]

Hi lighthouse9,

My situation is rather unique.  Several factors combined to create a perfect storm to get my wife to DBT.  An alignment of the planets that would be difficult to repeat (and I don't wish the situation on anyone):

* We had talked about DBT and she had rejected it, but we both knew the names of two local DBT therapists, so the seed had been planted.  (I had only made a light attempt, since my wife expressed such strong feelings against therapy that I'd pretty much given up years ago.)
* After failing to get things to a safe place on our own, I finally filed a domestic violence restraining order that required her to move out.  Two of our three children are still at home, and she was a stay-at-home-mom.  Her life as she knew it went up in a mushroom cloud.  All of her defenses were blown away.
* She landed at the home of a friend who supported her and strongly encouraged her to do therapy.
* Her most trusted brother, her permanent "white night" and his wife supported her an strongly encouraged her to do therapy.
* So, with her knowing that I thought DBT would be helpful, defenses blown away, and her support network guiding her there, it happened pretty quickly.

That said, had I known all that I know now, but known it only three years into the marriage, I think with my long-term patient mindset we might have been able to get help earlier with much less drama.  I think you would find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is an hour and forty minutes long.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help! How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment."  In the video, he says that two things are predictive of whether or not someone will stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.

Regarding what I've learned during the separation, I'm sure I won't be able to do it justice, but here are a few points off the top of my head:

* I have peace to think my own thoughts.  I had realized that I didn't even have space in my head to think my thoughts, but had not realized how wonderful and empowering it would be to actually get that space to think.
* I have been absolutely boundaryless.  I have learned how it started with my FOO, and how boundaryless our entire marriage has been.
* I have been terrible at self care.  I just waited around to see if we would do anything together.  I completely spent myself doing things for others.  Three months in, I am just starting to get the hang of self care, and have a long way to go.
* The amount of energy that went into feeding the relationship was just astonishing.  A monster vacuum.  It sucked away energy from my job, from my relationship with my daughters, and from myself.  I could easily go many many more months of separation simply repairing all of the other areas that suffered.
* I have had space to assess my injuries, to realize the extent of damage that I'd been hiding while trying to simply get along.  Hidden injuries were keeping me from functioning, but since they were hidden they couldn't be healed.
* Our relationship really has been reset.  I feel like I know so much more about what I want in a relationship, and I have the confidence to not give too much of myself unless I am getting what I need in return.

OK, that's what I've got for now.  I hope it helps!

WW