Dating for successful love

[Moselle]

I'm desperate to be capable of a healthy relationship.

I want:

- Light hearted friendship
- Intimacy ( intellectual, emotional and physical)
- Teamwork
- Understanding
- Freedom
- Emotional intelligence
- Fun

It's really hard to understand why it seems so difficult. I've dated three girls post divorce. 2 demonstrated cluster B traits at 5 or 6 months and I exited. The other we mutually agreed that we were not suited.

I don't want to walk down the road with the pothole. I want a different road with a lovely woman.

What do I lack? Why is this eluding me? An I trying too hard?

Taking some time out from dating. But keen to put my house in order. Any tips/ thoughts ?

[Insom]

Hi, Moselle!   

It sounds like you're asking yourself some deep questions after a handful of not-so-great dating experiences.  While I'm not currently dating I can relate very much to what is feels like to question yourself after getting out of a relationship with someone with BPD. 

I want:

- Light hearted friendship
- Intimacy ( intellectual, emotional and physical)
- Teamwork
- Understanding
- Freedom
- Emotional intelligence
- Fun

Yay!  Congrats on being able to articulate what you're looking for in an partner.  I know it sounds like a simple thing to do, but really, it is a big step!  Especially if you're, like me, not used to understanding what you want.

In addition to the traits you've listed, are their any common interests you may want to look for in a person?  It can be hard to gauge a person's capacity for intimacy and teamwork right off the bat.  I'm wondering if there are other qualities or interests you can use to decide if you have potential with someone?

It's really hard to understand why it seems so difficult. I've dated three girls post divorce. 2 demonstrated cluster B traits at 5 or 6 months and I exited. The other we mutually agreed that we were not suited.

I hear you.  What happened with the two who demonstrated cluster B traits?  What were the traits?

I want a different road with a lovely woman.

Yes!  I love this and am rooting for you. 



 

[Moselle]

It sounds like you're asking yourself some deep questions after a handful of not-so-great dating experiences.  While I'm not currently dating I can relate very much to what is feels like to question yourself after getting out of a relationship with someone with BPD.  

Hi Insom. It's not that they weren't great. They all started out great. I couldn't pick any strange things to start with. Then a few red flags, then lots of boundary defense and a vjew of the dark side. And a realisation that here I am... .again . At least it's quite predictable

In addition to the traits you've listed, are their any common interests you may want to look for in a person?  It can be hard to gauge a person's capacity for intimacy and teamwork right off the bat.  I'm wondering if there are other qualities or interests you can use to decide if you have potential with someone?

I'd like her to be nurturing.
Be able to articulate and have honest discussions about the relationship without it getting heated or tense
Have a good sense of humour

Do you mean interests as in golf, travel etc?

I hear you.  What happened with the two who demonstrated cluster B traits?  What were the traits?

The first I am NC. The second is all or nothing and I have LC
Circular arguments, splitting, dysregulation, push/pull

Yes!  I love this and am rooting for you.  

Thanks. It's back to the drawing board. I'm focussing on my growth now. And we'll see what happens

Especially if you're, like me, not used to understanding what you want.

What do you mean? Is it hard for you to think what you would like in a partner? Is that why you aren't currently dating?

[Sunfl0wer]

How are you finding women to date?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Moselle,

I can relate to your feelings and questions here. I think you have a great list of what you want to experience in a partnership. Piggybacking on Insom’s question, I wonder if writing out/imagining some specific scenarios that encapsulate the ideas in your list would be an interesting and helpful exercise?

For example, you wrote “Fun.” Does that mean your partner has a great sense of humor, tells hilarious jokes, loves rollercoasters, laughs a lot, etc.? What do you see you and your partner doing that would reflect Fun?

Taking some time out from dating. But keen to put my house in order. Any tips/ thoughts ?

In my experience,  “letting go” of goals can be exactly the time when they come to fruition, or something even better than what I had imagined. I say enjoy this break, and get yourself into your listed feeling states as much as possible.  

heartandwhole

[Insom]

They all started out great. I couldn't pick any strange things to start with. Then a few red flags, then lots of boundary defense and a vjew of the dark side. And a realisation that here I am... .again grin . At least it's quite predictable.

   It sounds like you're learning!

Do you mean interests as in golf, travel etc?

Sort of, yes.  I was thinking about shared taste in music or movies, but golf and travel work, too!  Whatever you're into.  Sunfl0wer and heartandwhole asked good questions, too.

What do you mean? Is it hard for you to think what you would like in a partner? Is that why you aren't currently dating?

I'm not currently dating because I am married. (I am here on the forum to process an abusive relationship I had as a teen.) I lucked out big time when I met my husband because even though I hadn't finished healing from my BPD-relationship when he and I met, he's been great for me.

I struggle to know what I want when it comes to work and career goals.  Goals feel very hard to me.  It's like I want to succeed, I believe I have qualities that should allow me to succeed, but somehow I haven't been able to get it all together . . . yet.

I'm desperate to be capable of a healthy relationship.

For me it is "I'm desperate to find a way to do financially rewarding work that doesn't require co-dependency with boss."

[Jeffree]

Moselle,

I'm in the same boat as you, right down to putting my house in order.

May I ask, what type of woman are you attracted to on the outside?

I am beginning to suspect that for myself the problem is what draws me in on the surface.

J

[AnalogGuy]

Hi Moselle,

You can do it, just be patient and be firm about what you're really looking for. My first actual girlfriend after my divorce showed some signs after about 4 or 5 months (she was such a breath of fresh air I thought). I dated casually for a couple years and then a girl who I was just friends with asked me on a date. I bit over a year later we moved in together, two years after that we got married. Now we've been married almost 6 years, have three amazing kids, and I'm happier than I have ever been.

One thing to reflect on is what attracts you to a woman. I liked independent women with wit (and sometimes sarcasm). Turns out independent women who are sarcastic can sometimes also be BPD. I think that is what happened with my first serious girlfriend post divorce. For my second (now my wife) I focused on friendship and mutual respect. It has really paid off.

[Moselle]

Moselle,

I'm in the same boat as you, right down to putting my house in order.

May I ask, what type of woman are you attracted to on the outside?

I am beginning to suspect that for myself the problem is what draws me in on the surface.

Hey Jefree. It's nice to know others are on this journey.

It's interesting to ask that.

I was with a few mates.the other day (including my divorce lawyer)  and the topic of my ex came up. I made a comment about her and they mentioned how beautiful she is. My initial instinct was surprise that they said that. I feel repulse for the woman because she is a nasty piece of work. On the outside I concede she is a beautiful woman.

My focus was and still is not really on a woman's appearance but more on how she makes me feel.

The three relationships I've had since were with women who have quite different appearances but were all attractive to me.

To be honest I dont personally see a correlation between appearance and BPD.

I think they can be quite seductive (I can only speak for the female ones) and know how to play for attention. I'd  be curious to hear from the female listnership if borderline males are particularly seductive.  

[Moselle]

Turns out independent women who are sarcastic can sometimes also be BPD. I think that is what happened with my first serious girlfriend post divorce. For my second (now my wife) I focused on friendship and mutual respect. It has really paid off.

Thanks AnalogGuy

Friendship and mutual respect sounds great.

In also like an independent woman. But prefer playful to sarcasm

[once removed]

My focus was and still is not really on a woman's appearance but more on how she makes me feel.

what does this mean to you? i ask because obviously, it can mean many different things with many different connotations.

[Moselle]

what does this mean to you? i ask because obviously, it can mean many different things with many different connotations.

I find things like a sense of humour, playfulness, intelligence are more important to me than someone's physical appearance.

It's been a learning experience for me to realise that these traits were mirrored to me by my ex. She appeared playful and humorous in the beginning. I just can't remember where that stopped   But it did.

I realised after 15 years of marriage that we were so different.

This is why friendship is so important to me before a relationship becomes committed.

[Harri]

Hi Moselle.  Its been a long time since we have chatted but I have been following your story.  I'm still firmly on Team Moselle.  I just want to challenge something here:

I don't want to walk down the road with the pothole. I want a different road with a lovely woman.
What do I lack? Why is this eluding me? An I trying too hard?

You are saying that you are doing things wrong and are still going down the same road.  But you are not going down the same road.  You identified problems in all three relationships and stopped yourself from going further with the two women with BPDish type behaviors.  That **is** change.  It takes about 5 to 6 months to see how someone really is and as soon as you've identified a problem you address it.  Again, that **is** change for you and shows a lot of growth and counts a success!  Well done!

Maybe I took what you wrote too literally.  I don't know.  If not then think about it.  You might need a perspective change.  

[Moselle]

You are saying that you are doing things wrong and are still going down the same road.  But you are not going down the same road.  You identified problems in all three relationships and stopped yourself from going further with the two women with BPDish type behaviors.  That **is** change.  It takes about 5 to 6 months to see how someone really is and as soon as you've identified a problem you address it.  Again, that **is** change for you and shows a lot of growth and counts a success!  Well done!

Maybe I took what you wrote too literally.  I don't know.  If not then think about it.  You might need a perspective change.  

Hi Harri. It's so nice to hear from you. Thanks for the support. Thank you too for the re-frame. You are spot on. Let me be grateful for a moment here. My knowledge of Cluster B behaviour, my newly implemented boundaries has been directly because of my journey here at bpdfamily.
.
And yes. I do not stay in dysfunctional relationships once I know it's wrong. I'm proud of my ability to effect boundary defense and the emotional intelligence I have gained in recent years.

The last girl was someone I really liked, however she has BPD and N traits. We have agreed amicably to be friends so I have even learned how to exit a potentially explosive situation in a mutually respectful way . We are now good friends.

My concern is that there is still something inside me attracting these types of relationships. I'm trying to understand what that is,  because I want to address it.

Is it the "benevolent"rescuer?
Is it the poor self image and sense of self?
Is it a confidence issue that makes me feel unworthy of a healthy relationship?

I'm really asking the questions because I want a quality, happy relationship. I feel that I have to be what I want to attract.

It's a bit like trying to fix the holes in a net, without having worked on a net before, whilst blindfolded. Does that make sense?

[Panda39]

I too grew through the demise of my marriage and decided to approach my next relationship in a very different way.

I had life long pattern of looking for those poor lost/broken boys with "good hearts" that I could fix, and love and nurture and make myself feel good and worthy during the process.  I was always looking at what I could do for them, their happiness was my happiness, never once did I look at if they were right for me, good for me and sometimes even good to me.  I also just sort of fell into relationships none were deliberate or thoughtful.

In 2009 I actually ended my marriage and closed old wounds from the relationship I had right before my husband. That previous relationship was never worked through and never healed.  I married my rebound man for all the wrong reasons.   2009 was a year of breakdowns and breakthroughs and finally coming out a whole me at the end. 

I enjoyed a year of just being me, spending time with my friends and my son, working on my art and doing some writing.  I was a time just for me.

During that time I read relationship self-help books, talked to my younger friends about the ins and outs of on line dating and just started thinking about the possibility of dating again... .it had been 20 years.  I remember I did an exercise that was to write down 100 qualities you would like in your partner.  I found the exercise really helpful.  First of all coming up with 100 things is really hard, it really makes you think.  But what the exercise really did was help me focus on what I wanted (not what I thought a potential partner wanted from me).  It also helped me prioritize the things that were most important to me... .so I could identify what where my deal breakers.

So what I changed was what I wanted, what was important to me, and looked at what the relationship would do for me.  The past Panda would have thought this is the most incredibly selfish way to think and that would be bad.  The new Panda thought she deserved something for herself a relationship that was good for her too not just her partner.

So I tried a different approach it was thoughtful, it was considered, I was deliberate in my search and I listened to my gut.  I found someone that the old Panda would have never dated in a million years.  I found a nerd... .second date played the theme to Star Trek as we drove home from dinner  , I found someone educated, I found someone romantic, I found someone capable (I didn't have to take care of everything), I found someone supportive etc.  We are a partnership.

Anyway just thought I'd share, hopefully there is something there that is helpful.

Panda39

[Harri]

Hey Moselle.  I had a feeling I was missing something!  LOL  I have almost mastered ending bad relationships but making new ones (for me strictly platonic) is a whole new ball game. 

I think your questions are good ones.  I think, for me at least, all three apply and there will always be a pull toward dysfunction given my background.  Yes, I can learn new behaviors, shed old roles, but some of the responses are deeply ingrained and the personality traits are hard-wired. 

I like the posts here that are aimed at applying new ways of being and interacting with people.  Regardless of our history, which will always be a part of us, we can change.  That balances my more gloom and doom outlook with hope.   

Okay, jut rambling.  I Mostly wanted to say hello and let you know I am listening and rooting for you.

[Jeffree]

Moselle,

Is there a possibility that it's not you?

I'll say that for myself it's easy to point the finger at my patterns, history, cause and effect, and all that self directed insight. Not that it's easy because I am obviously doing so many things wrong, but it's easy because I am so used to doing it.

One of the things I love is movies where the unassuming boy/man gets the sweet girl/woman.

There I'll be thinking, dude dress better, go out to parties, make yourself available, you're so interesting share yourself with others.

Then the female lead is that special someone who CHOOSES to look at the boy/man in a way he has never been seen before, gives him a chance to matter to her, and that just gets me because it's what I have so badly wanted.

I thought I had found that with my STBx, but she was just playing me for a fool.

Anyhoo, the possibility does exist that you've just not gotten lucky enough to find the right one.

J
 

[Moselle]

Thanks for everybody's comments. I appreciate you.

Moselle,

Is there a possibility that it's not you?

I'll say that for myself it's easy to point the finger at my patterns, history, cause and effect, and all that self directed insight. Not that it's easy because I am obviously doing so many things wrong, but it's easy because I am so used to doing

Yes there's a possibility. But the trend is happening in my love life. So the more I take responsibility for it, the more I can direct it the way I want to go.

I guess one of my frustrations is how long it's taking to bounce. My focus was mostly on her during the marriage and it's been a journey of discovery as I build a life for me.

I expected to be much further along by now.

One of the things I love is movies where the unassuming boy/man gets the sweet girl/woman

Then the female lead is that special someone who CHOOSES to look at the boy/man in a way he has never been seen before, gives him a chance to matter to her

This is how I  want to look at myself. Be my own cheerleader. Then when she comes among and treats me in the same way, it will correlate.

[Jeffree]

I am certainly never one to advocate for stopping self examination.

However, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the ways we have been told life works might not actually work that way.

Treat others how you would like to be treated.
You can attract more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.
Karma.

Personally, I now do not believe tenets such as these actually are valid. They've become hearsay in the same way Santa Claus was to me as a kid.

Likewise, I believe the possibility exists that you are not attracting pwBPD because of something innate in your nature.

Might you be a fixer, a giver, a helper, a self sacrificer? Probably.

Yet while these are traits pwBPDs tend to latch onto, they also latch onto many bad qualities in many bad people, too. Just none of them are here.

You and I and a whole host of people here are good, insightful people who just crapped out in their relationships. This is not to say there aren't areas within us that could use improvement, but there is a limit and meeting a BPD or two along the way is no indication of the lack of progress. Nor is finding that special someone indication that our self-improvement job is done.

J

[rj47]

I'm desperate to be capable of a healthy relationship.

What do I lack? Why is this eluding me? An I trying too hard?

Taking some time out from dating. But keen to put my house in order. Any tips/ thoughts ?

Maybe you are trying too hard. I realized after 20 years in the belly of the beast that I was probably more messed up than my unfortunate former partner. Untrusting of anyone and afraid of intimacy I looked for the signs in everyone I met. What an unfortunate way to exist negatively filtering our perceptions of others. I think there are more decent, accepting and loving people in the world, than not. We set a low bar for ourselves in the prior relationship. Some like me pushed ourselves to the brink of despair. When we start to come out of it we can recoil and seek perfection needing to set right what was wrong for so long. No one is perfect. But they can be near perfect to you, especially considering what you endured in the past. Besides, most of us bring a lot of our own baggage to new relationships as well. We ain't so perfect either.

I eventually met someone by accident ending up becoming supportive friends helping each other to learn to trust again without having to try for the simple reason that we lived a great distance apart. No risk. I was safe. When we finally met after almost a year of talking the shackles were already gone and I was finished. No secrets, no hidden agenda, only acceptance, close friendship, and trust. Two years later and we're traversing the Atlantic every few months planning a life together. I'd probably still be withdrawn and convinced that I had to protect my fragile ego had I not finally been eased into letting go of the self doubt and fear without knowing. Maybe not. The old habits may take a long time to wane, but I expect they do eventually. Nevertheless, I was very lucky. In hindsight I was in love with her before we ever met.

You know the signs all to well. But not every behavior you intuit is reality. Stay open, non-judgmental and give others a chance.

[Rubies]

I'm almost 8 years out of a 17 year BPD marriage, I turn 60 this year. 

I don't think we attract BPDs and NPDs.  I think they exist in large numbers and try to set hooks in everyone they meet.  Our first priority in building ourselves and our new life should be setting boundaries and effectively enforcing them.   Disordered people don't like my boundaries.  Too bad, I'm creating space I need to fully recover from all I lost. 

I dated for awhile, didn't much care for the take a chance on the numbers method many men use, or the looking for mr. goodbar method of most women.  Most guys can't hold my attention more than 3 minutes.  I enjoy taking myself to social events and activities and taking myself home alone.  I'm not eager to jump on anyone's roller coaster.  What I have is a handful of trusted Guy Friends who are not relationship material, at least for me.  Most have relationship PTSD too.  It's a great way to build trust with others. 

The relationship focus exercise I did was to make the list of all the qualities I want in a life partner.  I took my time over several days and had quite a list.  Go as shallow and deep and you want and as long and you want.  You're building your future life partner, no need to skimp on qualities and assets.  When you finish the list, set it down for a few days then come back to it.   

CHOOSE 5 of the most important things on your list and write them on a separate list.  When you meet new people look for these qualities only.  Nothing else matters.   Pursue a relationship interest with ONLY those  who possess at least 3 of the qualifiers.   You just eliminated 98% of possible wrong choices and leaves you free to work on your life and happiness.  It also leaves space for friendship networking when you don't try to build with inappropriate attachments.

We'll be rolling into spring soon.  I already feel my friends gearing up for their annual "I found a man for you" rituals and routines.   They're comical and I do appreciate their efforts.  At my age I admit appreciating the interest of some awesome gentlemen, but they're crossed off the list of possibilities and Friend Zoned within a half hour.

I know 3 men who possess at least 4 out of 5 of important qualities I want in a partner.  I give these friendships plenty of space to develop in trust and intimacy.  I have no timeline, no agenda, no hurry up and make another mistake.  Only the practice of love and forgiveness within boundaries as we learn to set aside our baggage and stay off each other's triggers.  If it's growing it's worth keeping.  These are remarkably healing relationships worth keeping even if I enter into an exclusive relationship with someone else.
 
I think those of us who fought and won our freedom from the toxic world of BPD are loathe to risk it happening again.  It's okay to be too cautious with people.  It's okay to put ourselves first when meeting needs, it's okay to say no to that which is not ideal or good for us .  It's okay to say yes to real possibilities.

[Moselle]

I don't think we attract BPDs and NPDs.  I think they exist in large numbers and try to set hooks in everyone they meet.  Our first priority in building ourselves and our new life should be setting boundaries and effectively enforcing them.   :)isordered people don't like my boundaries.  Too bad, I'm creating space I need to fully recover from all I lost.

This is spot on!
 
Cluster B's need three things in a relationship:
1. Compassionate and caring partner
2. Partner willing to live through the projection and emotional abuse (aka sharing their intense emotional swings)
3. Partner who accepts the push pull nature. "I love you. I love you not"

Tick for #1
Ixnay on numbers #2 and #3

These boundaries exclude almost all the Cluster B's as they need #2 and #3 much more than #1.

PS. My last (BPDish) ex phoned me last night perhaps trying to recycle. She wanted her fix of #2 and #3. I gave her lots #1 and absolutely no #2 or #3.

 
I dated for awhile, didn't much care for the take a chance on the numbers method many men use, or the looking for mr. goodbar method of most women. 

Not familiar with these methods. can you explain?

 
Most guys can't hold my attention more than 3 minutes.  I enjoy taking myself to social events and activities and taking myself home alone.  I'm not eager to jump on anyone's roller coaster.  What I have is a handful of trusted Guy Friends who are not relationship material, at least for me.  Most have relationship PTSD too.  It's a great way to build trust with others. 

Have you had any luck with anyone with no PTSD, and no previous relationship traumas? ie healthy history of relationships.

I also seem to find either BPD/NPD's or other codependents working through their stuff. I want to rewrite my hard drive so I attract neither, because I don't find either very attractive to be honest (abusers or abused). Wishful thinking? Thoughts on that?
 

 
The relationship focus exercise I did was to make the list of all the qualities I want in a life partner.  I took my time over several days and had quite a list.  Go as shallow and deep and you want and as long and you want.  You're building your future life partner, no need to skimp on qualities and assets.  When you finish the list, set it down for a few days then come back to it.   

CHOOSE 5 of the most important things on your list and write them on a separate list.  When you meet new people look for these qualities only.  Nothing else matters.   Pursue a relationship interest with ONLY those  who possess at least 3 of the qualifiers.   You just eliminated 98% of possible wrong choices and leaves you free to work on your life and happiness.  It also leaves space for friendship networking when you don't try to build with inappropriate attachments.

This is awesome and pragmatic.
 

 
We'll be rolling into spring soon.  I already feel my friends gearing up for their annual "I found a man for you" rituals and routines.   They're comical and I do appreciate their efforts.  At my age I admit appreciating the interest of some awesome gentlemen, but they're crossed off the list of possibilities and Friend Zoned within a half hour.

This 'I've-found-someone-for-you' business is usually, 'I know someone who is also messed up like you. you guys will get along'- no thanks

 
I know 3 men who possess at least 4 out of 5 of important qualities I want in a partner.  I give these friendships plenty of space to develop in trust and intimacy.  I have no timeline, no agenda, no hurry up and make another mistake.  Only the practice of love and forgiveness within boundaries as we learn to set aside our baggage and stay off each other's triggers.  If it's growing it's worth keeping.  These are remarkably healing relationships worth keeping even if I enter into an exclusive relationship with someone else.

Sounds very healthy, indeed
 

 
I think those of us who fought and won our freedom from the toxic world of BPD are loathe to risk it happening again.  It's okay to be too cautious with people.  It's okay to put ourselves first when meeting needs, it's okay to say no to that which is not ideal or good for us .  It's okay to say yes to real possibilities.

I have gotten back on that horse, and found I am not yet healthy enough. I am more reticent now, focusing on my own life goals, which I feel really excited about.

Thanks for your thoughts Rubies. They're really insightful

[once removed]

I also seem to find either BPD/NPD's or other codependents working through their stuff. I want to rewrite my hard drive so I attract neither, because I don't find either very attractive to be honest (abusers or abused).

i think this just is what it is. all different kinds of people may be attracted to you. some may have disordered traits. i dont think theres a target on our head (for lack of a better word; im not saying you suggested this) that causes a certain type to be attracted to us, or that we can have a sign on our head that repels a certain type.

i also dont believe mature and grounded people "run" from relationships. i think they consider things, reassess, and if need be, exit gracefully. thus far, it sounds like that has been your approach. this is good. you are shifting models to something healthier, and a better fit. it wont happen completely over night.

its also true that as we age, and the dating pool shrinks, there will tend to be more folks with disordered traits in the water.

Is it the "benevolent"rescuer?
Is it the poor self image and sense of self?
Is it a confidence issue that makes me feel unworthy of a healthy relationship?

I'm really asking the questions because I want a quality, happy relationship. I feel that I have to be what I want to attract.

it could be all of the above, and i think youre on the right track. most of our "ways" are pretty set by a certain age, but all of the things you listed are pretty workable.

I find things like a sense of humour, playfulness, intelligence are more important to me than someone's physical appearance.

good stuff.

It's been a learning experience for me to realise that these traits were mirrored to me by my ex.

this is what i was touching on, and potentially projecting a bit of my experience on yours. what really struck me after my breakup was learning about my own need for mirroring. my ex mirrored back to me all of the things i so badly wanted to be loved for, believed i should be loved for, and that equated to me as love. and when that changed, i really struggled.

theres nothing inherently wrong with what i just described. we all idealize new partners. we all tend to find those quirks very charming and loveable at first. and its important that we are loved for who we are. for me, there was an over emphasis on my need to be mirrored, and an over investment in it. i went all in because "this girl gets me". it was much less about my feelings for her as a person but more about how she made me feel as a person. intensity equaled intimacy, etc.

ive learned a lot just from learning about how relationships evolve, devolve, breakdown. theres the power struggle phase. honeymoon phases end. some of those quirks we loved to death can start to drive us up a wall. etc. a lot of this changes around the 3-6 month mark, and that can affect the trajectory of the relationship.

Moselle, i think youre seeing this, switching gears, and making tremendous progress.

[valet]

this is what i was touching on, and potentially projecting a bit of my experience on yours. what really struck me after my breakup was learning about my own need for mirroring. my ex mirrored back to me all of the things i so badly wanted to be loved for, believed i should be loved for, and that equated to me as love. and when that changed, i really struggled.

jumping in here because i think this is a great insight that i can relate to. i remember when i was younger i wanted my partners to like what i liked, to act a certain way, to be a certain person that i could only describe as more constructed than 'real' in the strict sense

as i've gotten older and learned some things about myself, i find that i'm not so attracted to this kind of relationship anymore. i take a lot more out of things and am less demanding as far as what i expect a person to be. of course we all mirror others to some extent, it's natural, but there are lines there now. I expect individuality instead of conformity. i expect people to disagree with me; i like it even. it's a fun thing to navigate all things aside. in other words, it's a much more tenable standard than only wanting to be with people that align themselves to very specific criteria

so i guess in that way, i'm not really 'looking' for anything anymore. i go on dates, i have a healthy social life, i enjoy my alone time. it is what it is... .no need for the bow on top, and that is, i suppose, what i need in a partner now

[truthbeknown]

Hi Moselle,

You can do it, just be patient and be firm about what you're really looking for. My first actual girlfriend after my divorce showed some signs after about 4 or 5 months (she was such a breath of fresh air I thought). I dated casually for a couple years and then a girl who I was just friends with asked me on a date. I bit over a year later we moved in together, two years after that we got married. Now we've been married almost 6 years, have three amazing kids, and I'm happier than I have ever been.

One thing to reflect on is what attracts you to a woman. I liked independent women with wit (and sometimes sarcasm). Turns out independent women who are sarcastic can sometimes also be BPD. I think that is what happened with my first serious girlfriend post divorce. For my second (now my wife) I focused on friendship and mutual respect. It has really paid off.

Analguy:

i'm taking a stab at dating again and i spoke with a woman yesterday (two conversations) and it turns out she is very independent and has not been in a long term r/s more then 4 years.  She tells me that she is a "gypsy" of sorts.    The thing is that my life is in huge transition and so as i think that she might not want a long term relationship i start asking myself or telling myself "well maybe this is just someone who i can go out with and have some fun with."  But i think she is secretly screening for new sex partners and I've never had (on purpose) a casual relationship with someone.  My last partner turned out to have personality disorders and she was real verbally independent and had oppositional behavior but she was dependent on her parents and ultimately shacked up with a guy who had more money and was more stable financially then me.   So your point about the independence intrigues me.  How would you catagorize your current partner that you married then?    Sometime i feel like the real independent ones are "needy" in a different way (emotionally) and they don't want people to think they are weak so they exhibit those push pull behaviors?  thoughts?

[truthbeknown]

I'm almost 8 years out of a 17 year BPD marriage, I turn 60 this year. 



I dated for awhile, didn't much care for the take a chance on the numbers method many men use, or the looking for mr. goodbar method of most women.  Most guys can't hold my attention more than 3 minutes. 

Just wondering why?  also this is helping me to evaluate how i date because i tend to wonder what my potential partner wants in a relationship and whether i'm a good match for them too?  My exgf hooked me because she was really into me and I guess that felt good to be wanted.  If i had gone out with her and she told me that "most guys don't hold my attention" then i would have been thinking it's too hard to jump through her hoops.  After being in a relationship with someone who's cluster b etc. i am recovering from wondering what women want in relationships and maybe your comment touched a sore spot in my psyche thinking that there are so many people out there looking for perfection?  I'm not saying you are and actually I probably need to be more critical of potential partners vs being empathetic and understanding. 

Last night i spoke with a woman who has not been in a long term r/s for more then 4 years.  She seemed to pick apart the fact that i am a guy who's used to commitment.  She also asked me if i was "nervous when we first talked" and I immediately felt that this was a defensive type of question.  Later i found out she thought that i "talked to much" when we first chatted on the phone.  It seemed like she was setting me up for failure? 

Anyway, i need to have better rule out criteria but i'm in transition right now and would be okay finding some activity partners which i guess is equivalent to "friend zoning" but i'm okay with that right now.  My heart couldn't handle getting emotionally attached to someone who just wants to be a player.

 At my age I admit appreciating the interest of some awesome gentlemen, but they're crossed off the list of possibilities and Friend Zoned within a half hour. 

Why?  please explain and do you tell them you just wouldn't mind being friends?

I know 3 men who possess at least 4 out of 5 of important qualities I want in a partner.  I give these friendships plenty of space to develop in trust and intimacy.  I have no timeline, no agenda, no hurry up and make another mistake.  Only the practice of love and forgiveness within boundaries as we learn to set aside our baggage and stay off each other's triggers.  If it's growing it's worth keeping.  These are remarkably healing relationships worth keeping even if I enter into an exclusive relationship with someone else.
 
I think those of us who fought and won our freedom from the toxic world of BPD are loathe to risk it happening again.  It's okay to be too cautious with people.  It's okay to put ourselves first when meeting needs, it's okay to say no to that which is not ideal or good for us .  It's okay to say yes to real possibilities.