I am conflicted and feel intimidated about how to start and hold this dialogue

[Serenitywithin]

I posted a long intorduction about my wife and our issues. The biggest issue is our 4 Children the oldest of which is 12. The older two have noticed the issues and we have all walked on eggshells for a long while. I have gotten her to understand that since our last child 7 months ago, the children have become increasingly scared of her and they do not wantto be alone with her. She wants to be a good mother and her children are her universe, but she is confusing to them. My twelve yr old suffers very low self esteem and I am not sure how to tell the wide she caused alot of that. She is talking about wanting to home school the oldest next yr because she says at school she is miserable because she is not pretty enough or smart enough. but that is not the answer.

She has admitted now that she has screwed up a lot with the girls and wants to rectify it, but she is causing them angst in the process. She is going to therapy with me now for couples couseling, but what I am hoping is the therapist will see the BPD symptoms and maybe help, however she says almost nothing in the sessions and has rolled her eyes when I or the therapist has said certain things.

I am debating trying to have an open and honest yet supportive conversation with her about the BPD I think she may have and ask her to get help? I think if she realizes it is for the good of the kids, that I may be able to convince her she needs some help. Since our issues have been in the open the last several months and I have been telling her what me and the kids think and not letting her push us around, she has made several attempts at changing and is not yelling or blowing up as often, but she still gives looks and rolls her eyes a lot. She still feels she is the victim and after the fist of our two counseling sessions she yelled at me all the way home that she is the way she is because of me and was projecting her feelings on me.

I feel like the therapy sessions will be a waist until she can realize that these issues with the kids and with me and with my family are related to the BPD and that until she recognizes it nothing will change? She knows she screws up and have me and the kids feel certain ways, but she is unable to see the relation to her actions and words? I know this is part of the issue with BPD, but I cannot let things continue as they are for my kids sake. I have kept logs and audio/video recordings of all kinds of irrational stuff and keep a daily log of all the odd things that happens in case I need it. But I do not want a divorce, and more over, I do not want to take the kids away from their mother as they love her and fear her at the same time! She is a good mother a lot of the time but the inconsistency is damaging to the kids. I am afraid a split would leave the kids very Angry with me as they do not realize that they have been verbally and emotionally abused and they think it is all their fault as it is .

I have told her I want to get the kids some therapy for the things that have gone on and she had been open to it, But I need to tell her that it is because of the things she has done and said that have confused them over time. I need to get them into therapy to realize that these things are not what normal mothers do and say to their children. But I am not sure how to re-approach this without first getting wife to realize that she may be BPD?

I am conflicted and a bit intimidated about how to start and hold this dialogue with my wife? Have any of you had success in this conversation with your BPD? I have seen some horror stories out there about people who have tried, and when I have told her that something is going on and told her she needs to get some help before I understood what this was, it did not go well. She wants to bring every single thing I have done wrong for 12 years up and throw it at e to deflect. wants me to believe I have a problem, but in my situation there are enough people now who have seen the issues, that I know I am not imagining this any longer?

Any thoughts , Suggestions, on having this conversation!>

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[Harley Quinn]

Hi Serenitywithin and

It is great that you found us.  This is the right place to talk this through and I'm glad that you decided to seek advice before taking the plunge on this.  I can imagine just how nervous you must feel.  When you say it did not go well in the past when you approached her on the issues, what do you think was the reason for that?  How did she react?

We have excellent information here and I'm sure you'll hear back from others with their experiences too, so keep posting and take your time to think about your next steps.  Reaching out was a wise decision.  It is important for your family that you find ways forwards and we can help you here.  

Love and light x

[Serenitywithin]

Hi Serenitywithin and

It is great that you found us.  This is the right place to talk this through and I'm glad that you decided to seek advice before taking the plunge on this.  I can imagine just how nervous you must feel.  When you say it did not go well in the past when you approached her on the issues, what do you think was the reason for that?  How did she react?

We have excellent information here and I'm sure you'll hear back from others with their experiences too, so keep posting and take your time to think about your next steps.  Reaching out was a wise decision.  It is important for your family that you find ways forwards and we can help you here.  

Love and light x

Thanks Harley Quinn,

About 4 months ago we were in another fight caused by nothing and and she was raging at me in front of the kids right before we were supposed to leave on a camping trip . I finally told her that something was up and that I think post partem was enhancing the things going on , but that the kids and I have been walking on eggshells for years and that  I was not going to have it any longer.

I know I made a mistake by confronting her in a raging moment and at the time I had been researching for months and BPD was not on my radar at the time. I thought she might have been a possible bipolar but she does nto have the Full depressive states or manic states... She does, but they are usually hours, sometimes a few days.

Since we have been in counseling 2 sessions now with a third scheduled, I have wrapped my mind around how she feels and am trying to be validating in conversations. She is fearing abandonment and realized that the older kids have noticed her issues and she jsut chalks it up to she screws up all the time and she wants to do better. she does not link their fear of being alone with her, or their fear of asking to go to a friends or to their grandparents to her own actions and reaction to their questions. since she feels like the kids are choosing everyone else over her is they want to go somewhere( especially since she has been told my me all the things the kids have told me and my family about the issue) she rolls her eyes or makes smart allek passive aggressive comments about the kids wanting to go somewhere else.  

She does not realize she is doing it. I asked our son the other day if he wanted to go with me to pick up his sisters so he could see his grandpa, she huffed and rolled her eyes. She did not want him to go. I said why did you react that way, and she told me she didnt and it is all in my head and to quit taking things so personally.  She later divulged she also thought I just did not want to leave him alone with her, which was not even on my mind since he is the GOLDEN CHILD in her eyes and I am never afraid of leaving him ... .But if she is not in the room when I ask him about going over he does want to go. so even he is effected or trying to please her by saying things he knows she wants to hear like no I dont want to go right now.

She went off on me though about the Bipolar conversation. It was not received well, however, I also know it was not delivered well. She told me we were getting divorced and we would NEVER EVER be together again after that night. 2 hours later when she got me to come back home and talk after me and kids retreated to my parents house. she wanted to go camping the next morning as planned. So Divorce has been threatened like 5 times in the last 7 months/

My thinking is that if I can talk to her on a good day when she is not down . I may be able to show her that certain things are tied to her actions or reactions, and that I just want to get her some help? I have said this to her about her Anger and how she reacts to anger, as well as her anxiety , but if I was to ball it together and ask her if she would talk to someone about wether or not she is BPD or not and give her a few articles that s gentle to read about BPD and the things they say or how arguments go with a BPD individual and explain that while I am trying to be understanding about all of these little things, it is confusing to the children and they do not always understand the things she does.  I feel like I need to her to seek help and get a diagnosis, so that I have something to explain to the children as they are  internalizing things and possibly even becoming depressed about things because I have no way to explain things to them currently.  If she is diagnosed at least we could explain to the kids that when this happens, dont be confused, and here is what we can all do to help mommy fell a little better if this or that happens?

[Harley Quinn]

If she is diagnosed at least we could explain to the kids that when this happens, dont be confused, and here is what we can all do to help mommy fell a little better if this or that happens?

From what I understand, you have a 7 month old and a 12 year old with two others aged in between.  Is that right?  I'm guessing three of them are old enough to be able to talk about feelings.  As a person who suffers with BPD or has traits of BPD is driven by emotions, I'd suggest that using the language of emotions would be understandable to the kids, in age appropriate terms of course.  So with or without a diagnosis, it could potentially be possible to gain the understanding of your children about their mother's behaviour when they are confused by it.  Do they ask questions about things that happen? 

There are some excellent resources here to help you to improve communication and reduce tension in the home.  Some of which could be modelled in front of the kids who will catch on quickly I'm sure to the fact that you are taking a different approach to handling situations.  I'd encourage you to take a look at the articles to the right side of the page here, and also to the Basic Tools beneath these, where there is a wealth of helpful tips.  What are the behaviours that you struggle with the most from your wife?  Common examples are shown in this lesson, on Understanding your partner's behaviour.  What would you like to see an improvement with as a priority?

I'd be tempted to hold off having a conversation with her about anything to do with BPD diagnosis at this stage.  We can help you here with the groundwork that is needed to reach a point where it is more likely to have the desired outcome.  It may take time, but will be worth it for your family if it means things improve long term.   

Love and light x   

[Tattered Heart]

If I remember correctly your W goes through periods where she acknowledges there are issues but then just as quickly changes her mind about the seriousness of what is going on. Is that correct?

If so, what would be the purpose of telling her she has BPD?

One interesting thing about pwBPD is that they often have a very high level of understanding about what is going on. They can see that their behavior is creating all this dysfunction in their life. They could easily give advice to someone else going through the same in how to handle emotions, but they seem incapable of changing the behavior that they hate in themselves so much. (Not saying they are incapable but it takes a lot of work, and usually with experts).

Your previous post about your W talked about how extremely volatile she was. I'm not sure that this would be the right time to try to bring up the diagnosis. I think it could further cause her to feel alienated from you and your kids. Plus, you are still new to understanding BPD. Having a hard conversation without having an understanding of the communication tools could blow up in your face. Have you had any success with any of the skills in our workshops?

If you still think it's important to let her know about BPD, I'd highly suggest reading through our workshop on Telling Someone You Think They Have BPD .

[Serenitywithin]

If I remember correctly your W goes through periods where she acknowledges there are issues but then just as quickly changes her mind about the seriousness of what is going on. Is that correct?

If so, what would be the purpose of telling her she has BPD?

One interesting thing about pwBPD is that they often have a very high level of understanding about what is going on. They can see that their behavior is creating all this dysfunction in their life. They could easily give advice to someone else going through the same in how to handle emotions, but they seem incapable of changing the behavior that they hate in themselves so much. (Not saying they are incapable but it takes a lot of work, and usually with experts).

Your previous post about your W talked about how extremely volatile she was. I'm not sure that this would be the right time to try to bring up the diagnosis. I think it could further cause her to feel alienated from you and your kids. Plus, you are still new to understanding BPD. Having a hard conversation without having an understanding of the communication tools could blow up in your face. Have you had any success with any of the skills in our workshops?

If you still think it's important to let her know about BPD, I'd highly suggest reading through our workshop on Telling Someone You Think They Have BPD .

Tattered heart, thanks for your response. My 9 and 12 yr old girls need counseling for what they have been through, but If I cannot get her to see that there is an issue, I am afraid she wont see the good in getting the girls help? I mean what do I tell her they need counseling for? If she cant see that the way she has parented is because there are anger and anxiety issues, I am not sure how to get the girls into therapy or to talk to our pastors with her blessing.

That is the main reason I feel the need to help her into seeing the possible BPD or whatever else is going on as she is not diagnosed and I am not a Dr.  Our Family Dr thinks she needs to get into a psychiatrist to get the help she needs and I am hoping that our current marriage counselor who is seeing some of the traits and issues of anger and hate can help her come to the same conclusion, but I need to get help for the girls who have been confused and I believe even falling into a bit a of depression because of the things that have happened in the last year. I have been reading through all of the workshops and tools and I can see how I can do a lot of these things, but I am not sure how to tell and 8 or 9 year old to try and validate when she is raging in their direction or when she is apologizing to them, but doing so in a way that makes her the victim which is ultimately confusing for kids at this age?  and if there is no diagnosis  I have no way to explain to the children why she acts the way she does, or how to tell them that certain things are not their fault when they feel that way, which seems to be all the time.

[Harley Quinn]

It's unsurprising that you are feeling anxious to get things moving for the sake of your kids.  I would feel the same way.  :)oes your W have awareness of how her emotions affect her?  You stated that she knows she has screwed up sometimes with the kids.  I'm taking it that she knows in what ways her behaviour has affected them to some degree.  That is a positive in that you have something to work with.  By implementing the tools yourself, perhaps the emotional reactions can be somewhat reduced and this will in some respects shield the kids from having the same degree of negative impact at least in the short term.  Are you able to speak to her in calm moments about coming up with plans to handle situations that occur with the girls?  Come up with strategies together to prevent the same outcomes?  

Tattered Heart has a good point in that informing her of a possible BPD diagnosis might be met with negativity and worse behaviour.  Here is an excerpt from an article here, which speaks about sharing this information with a loved one:

Professionals do not recommend that you tell a loved one that you suspect that they have Borderline Personality Disorder. We may think that our loved one will be grateful to have the disorder targeted and will rush into therapy to conquer their demons, but this usually doesn't happen.  Instead, this is difficult advice to receive and more likely to sound critical and shaming (e.g., you are defective) and incite defensiveness, and break down the relationship trust.  It's not like a broken leg where the affliction is tangible, the cure is tangible, and the stigma nonexistent.  While we are grateful to learn about the disorder and the pathways to recovery - for us the information is validating and represents a potential solution to our family problems- to the afflicted, it is shaming (you are defective),  stigmatizing (mental illness in general, Borderline Personality Disorder specifically), and puts all the responsibility for the family problems on the loved one's shoulders.

Very often when we say we want to help a loved one with Borderline Personality Disorder, we mean that we want the loved one to stop being a burden to the family, and to better attend to our own needs and expectations.

It goes on to talk about the types of pushback that can be expected.  HOWEVER, there are things that can be done to get things moving in the right direction towards more voluntary acceptance.

If we want to help a loved one to get into therapy and, more importantly, to embrace the therapy, we need to "plug in" and understand both the perceptual filters that our loved one has, and their motivations.  This generally requires a great deal of listening.

Studies show that there are three areas that are most productive for family members to focus on.

Building trust. Not blaming or not finding fault, but rather respecting our loved one's point of view, listening without telling them that they are wrong - especially regarding their point of view that they are not ill if that is their thinking. Amador says that family members and clinicians should listen carefully to the loved one's fears.  "Empathy with the patient's frustrations and even the patient's delusional beliefs are also important", remarked Amador, who said that the phrase "I understand how you feel" can make a world of difference.

Reinforcing the developing awareness.  Reinforce the struggles that the loved one perceives as concerning. One of the most difficult things for family members to do is to limit discussions only to the problems that the loved one with the mental illness perceives as problems - not to try to convince them of others. Work with what you have. It is important to develop a partnership with the loved one around those things that can be agreed upon.

Our belief that the loved one will benefit from treatment.  Our loved one may be happy with where they are and moving them from this position is as much art as it is science - and it may take time.

You can read more on the above HERE.  The article also contains a video on understanding how to get a loved one into therapy, which may be helpful to you.

I'm in agreement that teaching the kids the tools is not the way forward right now.  Gaining their understanding of what is happening is important, as you've said.  Can you identify the triggers for your wife's undesirable behaviours around them?  For example, when they are running late it might make her feel frustrated.  I'd tend to explain to them by simply stating that in x situation, mom feels y, and take it from there.  Again, it is helpful if you're able to speak to your wife to gain an understanding of what the triggers are for her emotion driven responses.  This is a conversation for when she is already talking about her perceived mistakes with them or when you know that things are calm enough to approach a situation that has occurred.  I'll hang fire to hear from you before going on.  Meantime I can imagine the tension you must be feeling around this and I feel for you.  How well do you feel your support system overall is helping the situation at home?  

Love and light x  

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks Harley Quinn and tattered heart for your responses. When she is admitting to screwing up, it is usually in a fit of rage. So she is not really approachable when she is talking about how the kids are scared of her or don't come to her about stuff.

Good news is the marriage counselor called me today and said she could feel the anger coming off of my wife in our sessions. She agreed with me that she believes my wife to be BPD, I told her I thought A-- was lightly BPD she thinks it is more severe than I care to admit. She may be right, but if it is worse than I think, it makes me feel like a bad father for not being more receptive and allowing things to go on as long as they did.

she is also wanting me to come in for a one on one to discuss how to get A-- to come around to seeing things and on how to get the kids in therapy.  The call with her felt like a weight off of my shoulder. I know it does not mean there is relief in sight, but at least it was recognized and I no longer feel like I am crazy or that it is just me and my family and a select few friends that have seen it. This therapist was a complete stranger and 3 sessions in, has got a handle on what I have been dealing with.

I hope that things go well tomorrow with the therapist in my one on one and in our couples counseling session, and that maybe a plan will come together on confronting her or assisting her in realizing that there is a huge issue and assist her in getting the help she needs to become a great mother and heal the relationships with her children.

[Tattered Heart]

I'm so glad that you feel like you have your T's support. I hope that you are able to work out a plan of action with the T on how to address the diagnosis with your W.

Please don't beat yourself up about not realizing how bad things were. You only know what you know and you didn't know until recently. You know about things now so you start where you are and begin to make improvements now.

Please keep us updated on things.