another paradox; the better you treat them the less desirable you are

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

because if they were to be abandoned by a good person they would have to feel a great deal of inward shame.

therefore, relationships with those that are either abusive or non caring are preferable. (if the bad person leaves, its not a big deal).

This is where I believe I had to be painted black - it is like preparing the groundwork in advance in case I would leave.

The nicer and kinder I was to my ex, the more she started to act-out and get anxious.

Its like in the midst of all that provocation, there was a desperate need for me to retaliate hurfully, so it could be stockpiled as evidence that I wasnt a nice person after all.

Probably explains why so much stalking and personal intrusion happened too, like a dirt-digging, mud harvesting exercise.

Just wondered if anyone can relate to this at all.

[Cromwell]

because if they were to be abandoned by a good person they would have to feel a great deal of inward shame.

therefore, relationships with those that are either abusive or non caring are preferable. (if the bad person leaves, its not a big deal).

This is where I believe I had to be painted black - it is like preparing the groundwork in advance in case I would leave.

The nicer and kinder I was to my ex, the more she started to act-out and get anxious.

Its like in the midst of all that provocation, there was a desperate need for me to retaliate hurfully, so it could be stockpiled as evidence that I wasnt a nice person after all.

Probably explains why so much stalking and personal intrusion happened too, like a dirt-digging, mud harvesting exercise.

Just wondered if anyone can relate to this at all.

[Husband321]

 I do not think there is any rhyme or reason to it.

I think our brains try to make sense of it. (This day I did something special and she was mean to me. This day I was aloof and she was all over me etc)

Atleast in my case, she had so much stuff going on in the background that her mood towards me was totally affected by that.  Other men.  Her ex husband. Her family members.  Probably even other women.

But certainly. When things were good, she would push, push, and push to get me to say something rude.  Then that would be ammo for all future conversations that I said something mean. 

She would also tell me horrible stories at the most inopurtune times.

A day before her children visited for the summer, out of nowhere , tells me the day after we met 2 years prior she was with another man. Now why on earth decide to tell me that when things are actually good?  .

[MeandThee29]

I agree that it's complex.

A therapist once used the phrase "relationship chaos" with me in trying to understand what happened. It doesn't make sense to treat us the way they do. I thought for awhile that we might just quietly go our ways, but NO. I have to be treated horribly with burned bridges and then vacuumed up again as if nothing happened. And it's my fault if I can't adjust to the chaos, or it's flipped that I am the one who created the chaos.

[CryWolf]

for what its worth, my ex told me I was too good to be true. how she didnt deserve me, etc. in the beginning, then came her bringing up dirt from my social media before ever meeting her, or alleged accusations of me cheating or being unfaithful to other farfetched things. all tainting my image to her.

how have you been feeling lately crom?

[In a bad way]

WOW!
All the posts I've just read are spot on.
I got accused of not being there for her and helping to bring her children up for the last 10 years, I said I've only known you for six months, how can you blame me for that?

[Getoverit]

I have felt that way before Cromwell. I would be kind to him in many ways, verbally, emotionally, physically, generous with gifts to him and his family... .When he would say obnoxious things that challenged how genuine and sincere I was I eventually got annoyed and asked him if that was his passive agressive way of trying to break up with me. I didn't understand why he kept picking on me. Of course I never got a straight answer. Once he became very angry he would say that I'm materialistic and shallow--look at how I try to buy my way into his family! He also said I was vapid and needy--look at my friendships that are only with men. This is completely untrue but he somehow convinced himself that I only have male friends. And because I didn't mind being intimate with him whenever he wanted, I was surely a whore and a sex addict!

I found all of this so sad. He seemed so desperate to hate on me and I would tell him I'm sorry that he feels the way he does, that I understand how he wouldn't want to be with someone who is all these things (those were just a few). He would then scream at me for not fighting for him and that I was "discarding" him altogether because if I really loved him, I would stay. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I would defend myself at times, angrily too, when the accusations were ones that were too much to ignore. And naturally to him, these were perfect instances of my "evil nature" and "true colors". Once I accepted that he holds grudges I stopped entertaining thoughts of a future with him. How could I when he is incapable of letting go of the past?

This was the theme of the relationship starting early on. I am ashamed for putting myself through this over and over again. It became increasingly vicious and cruel, and over time I started to believe that I was worthless.

You mentioned, Cromwell, that this is their way of preparing the groundwork. I agree with that. Additionally, I think they are constantly creating dialogue and situations that could be open to misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding so that they maintain control over what REALLY happened (depending on the reality they see fit at the moment). Does that make sense? It would have never to me before I was involved with this guy, but I am forever changed.

[Getoverit]

Hi In a Bad Way, I'm not surprised--of course it's your fault. Just like it was my fault for being the cause of his inability to quit smoking for the past thirty years (just like you I was accused of this less than six months into the relationship).

[Getoverit]

My apologies to Cromwell and other members if my replies are "hijaking". I just learned this term and I hope you all can forgive me for being inconsiderate. My intention in writing about my specific experiences is to express the serious and long lasting effects of the relationship. And for others to understand the parallels that will help relieve us from feeling alone. I'm sorry and I will have better forum etiquette from now on.

[SWLSR]

Yes and when you decide that v unsure better off without them and you want them out of your life they want to feel you back in

[EdR]

I totally relate Cromwell. It is like eventually nice people scare them off. They seem to -or at least be able to- come too close emotionally.

I am sure they consciously or unconsciously feel shame about treating their NON as they do. And therefor they desperately try to look for 'evidence'/'validation' to excuse their own horrible behaviour. They even would fabricate stories when deemed necessary.


I've seen it personally. Multiple times. Some kind of dysfunctional coping mechanism.
 

[Husband321]

I totally relate Cromwell. It is like eventually nice people scare them off. They seem to -or at least be able to- come too close emotionally.

I am sure they consciously or unconsciously feel shame about treating their NON as they do. And therefor they desperately try to look for 'evidence'/'validation' to excuse their own horrible behaviour. They even would fabricate stories when deemed necessary.


I've seen it personally. Multiple times. Some kind of dysfunctional coping mechanism.
 

Not to stick up for their actions, but I believe BPD have an excellent moral compass. They know exactly what is right and wrong.  Exactly what hurts.

I feel the shame they feel is very deep, so as a defense mechanism you MUST be the bad one for the things they do. It plays out the same way in every relationship they have. 

But I think this will come out if you are nice to them. Not nice to them. Or mean to them.

[zachira]

People who are comfortable in their own skin let others know when their boundaries are being violated in a firm yet kind way. People with BPD have a hard time handling people they cannot project their feelings upon.

[JNChell]

Excellent point, zachira. I wonder if this could be perceived as rejection by some with BPD/traits?

I also agree with the others that have pointed at shame. I believe that this plays a big part in the subject matter of this thread. Maybe it’s also important to remember that the disorder is on a spectrum. Different traits and behaviors will be seen in different individuals with varying levels of severity.

Cromwell, the title of your post has been my experience. It boggles the mind when you’re enmeshed in it, only realizing what happened after it’s over. Interesting thread. What’s your take on the discussion so far?

[EdR]

Not to stick up for their actions, but I believe BPD have an excellent moral compass. They know exactly what is right and wrong.  Exactly what hurts.

I feel the shame they feel is very deep, so as a defense mechanism you MUST be the bad one for the things they do. It plays out the same way in every relationship they have. 

But I think this will come out if you are nice to them. Not nice to them. Or mean to them.

I wasn't saying they don't have a - excellent- moral compass. And yes it could play out if you are mean to them as well. But then I wouldn't call their behaviour dysfunctional or illogical. Then it would make sense and be more logical, wouldn't it?

[Husband321]

I wasn't saying they don't have a - excellent- moral compass. And yes it could play out if you are mean to them as well. But then I wouldn't call their behaviour dysfunctional or illogical. Then it would make sense and be more logical, wouldn't it?

Yes.  I guess it depends on what Cromwell means by "the better you treat them". And then "the less desirable you are"

As a practical example I could pretend it was my ex wife's bday. Let's say I went all out. Vacation.  Fancy dinners.  Thoughtful gift etc.  She might break up with me the next day.  Or she might love me to death. If she breaks up with me I would erroneously be thinking "it's because I treated her so well"

On the flip side I could almost forget her bday and do nothing except say happy bday. She might love me to death or dump me.

Point is that theyoften times have other things going on.  Contact with an ex. Someone they see at the store.  A dream about someone else. There is no winning.

I guess logically if the above statement was true "the better you treat them the less desirable you are" we would have it all figured out and just not treat them well which would keep them happy.

[RomanticFool]

People who are comfortable in their own skin let others know when their boundaries are being violated in a firm yet kind way. People with BPD have a hard time handling people they cannot project their feelings upon.

This to me is the crux of the situation. I know when I was younger, I was very boundaried and would not allow anybody to get past my defence if I felt they were trying to hurt me. The trouble with that, however, is that I am discovering I have certain traits myself and it can become a form of push/pull when I push somebody away and I also have a tendency to paint them black.

The harder thing is to leave oneself open to receive love and allow ourselves to become vulnerable. When we meet somebody with BPD who will hurt us no matter how we behave, it encourages us to become closed and self protective.

I think it is important to remain available to receive love and open to people who are capable of loving us. If we are nice people to those who treat us well, surely that is better than battening down the hatches and keeping ourselves protected for the rest of our lives so we don't get hurt.

My experience of being hurt so frequently and so profoundly is to look at my own behaviour and why I allowed this person to transgress my own code of conduct so regularly. It is clear to me now that the whole situation was the problem and not conducive to a real r/s.

We only need to protect ourselves from a disordered mind, not those who are capable of giving us love. The trick is to find the healthy ones, I guess.

[Cromwell]

Thanks for all the input - what makes the most sense to me so far is a few clues that my ex came out with

"all the good people leave me"

Being the serial-cheater that she was, it comes as no surprise. Yet she said it in a 'fatalistic' tone, as if it was destined to always be that way.

I agree with Husband that there is no winning, the times that I withdrew and stopped caving in to her excessive demands, she would use that as an excuse to go and cheat. If I did run after, which I did a lot at first, far less as the relationship went on, she "couldnt handle me" and found it difficult to accept being cared for, or even just giving her a compliment was too much to handle, despite she actively wanted to embrace all these things.

My conclusion on it is that I was just an extension of some inner-narrative she had set for herself that her life previously was a theme of disappointment and her future would be too. Therein is where the drama and conflict gets created. I feel I was merely tagging along as the other 'good people' did, as far as they could endure it. My eventual leaving was just validation of that narrative being correct. She will either seek out "bad boy" types that she can engage in drama with, cheat on with good conscience and no guilty and depart without regret, or be safely discarded (he abused me, he was a bad person anyway) and avoid any shame. The good guys in her life get a timer running in the background of just how far they will put up with the drama until they call it a day. In the meantime constant mini-battles of trying to find some reason to paint them black. Not difficult, provoke someone long enough and they will either retaliate in some way, verbal or otherwise, or just leave.

I think the guys that were good and left quick were the most difficult for her to get over and probably why it is so easy to go back for a recycle - another round of trying to find fault and end the relationship more on terms that she can live with better in the long run.

[RomanticFool]

there is no winning, the times that I withdrew and stopped caving in to her excessive demands, she would use that as an excuse to go and cheat. If I did run after, which I did a lot at first, far less as the relationship went on, she "couldnt handle me" and found it difficult to accept being cared for, or even just giving her a compliment was too much to handle, despite she actively wanted to embrace all these things.

This to me is a perfect summing up of BPD and exactly how my own situation played out. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You cannot win.I ended up being an amateur psychologist with my ex and the thanks I got for it was usually ST when i said something she didn't like. This after hours and hours of texting positive things.

[Cromwell]

for what its worth, my ex told me I was too good to be true. how she didnt deserve me, etc. in the beginning, then came her bringing up dirt from my social media before ever meeting her, or alleged accusations of me cheating or being unfaithful to other farfetched things. all tainting my image to her.

how have you been feeling lately crom?

Hi,

im doing really great these days. no drama, no chaos, actually life is a breeze in comparison and yet ive got far more on my plate to manage than I did when I was with her. I know I would be able to have accomplished the things I am doing if we were still together, which helps to cement in my mind that I made the right choice. The relationship was way too much of an overbearing burden to carry. This took having a "high maintenance" girl to another dimension.

yep, everything seems a breeze to deal with after all of that. amazing how much energy can be suppressed without actively realising it until take out of the situation what is draining potential but moreover, spirit. I think when you lose spirit, when it gets crushed, there really is no reserve power to fall back on.

11 months to recharge the batteries but got there in the end.    Hope your doing well too.

[Husband321]

. In the meantime constant mini-battles of trying to find some reason to paint them black. Not difficult, provoke someone long enough and they will either retaliate in some way, verbal or otherwise, or just leave.

My therapist put it like this.

"Pretend you could ask your wife exactly what she wants. The lifestyle, the car, house, children, type of man, etc. then magically you give her all of those things.   The problem is that she will change her mind the next day, and want something completely opposite. "

Which is 100 percent true, especially with how they like to be treated.

Sometimes certain things would work.  Other times they wouldn't.  It was a constant conflict in my mind thinking things like "should I chase.  Should I ignore.  Should I leave.  Should I be more firm? More forgiving? More trusting? Less trusting? Give her another chance?

I had to finally realize there was no way to keep her faithful and content.  It wasn't my issue or anything I did.  It was her.  And there was no way to fix it.  No way to act.  No certain tactics.  No tricks.  That's all she was capable of.

[EdR]

My therapist put it like this.

"Pretend you could ask your wife exactly what she wants. The lifestyle, the car, house, children, type of man, etc. then magically you give her all of those things.   The problem is that she will change her mind the next day, and want something completely opposite. "

Which is 100 percent true, especially with how they like to be treated.

Sometimes certain things would work.  Other times they wouldn't.  It was a constant conflict in my mind thinking things like "should I chase.  Should I ignore.  Should I leave.  Should I be more firm? More forgiving? More trusting? Less trusting? Give her another chance?

I had to finally realize there was no way to keep her faithful and content.  It wasn't my issue or anything I did.  It was her.  And there was no way to fix it.  No way to act.  No certain tactics.  No tricks.  That's all she was capable of.

I think the problem maybe even something else for me: what DOES she actually want? And does she always know it herself (I don't think so).
And when she wants 'something', even something like 'distance' the main problem isn't always the fleetingness of it all, but the problem to communicate it. I don't think she has been able to communicate about any of those things. Let alone communicate them clearly.

Some kind of dysfunctional mechanism would kick in and she just assumes we would get it.

[Ysabel]

I really identify with the dynamic that you just described. I feel like and believe that the last 6 years of marriage were an attempt to transform me into the bitch that raised him! And what’s worse, sometimes I think he has! A person can only stand so much gas lighting, neglect and provocation and not fight back. I feel like the poor athlete  who gets fouled then retailiates. The referee only sees the second blow. My husband is a monster and in a way I have become just as dangerous and monsterous as he. He is now the one asking for a divorce because all he wants is “peace”. I am an agreeable person and don’t have any other high conflict relationships other than this one. Now that he is “tapping out” of this 6 year wrestling match, I am full of shame and guilt and remorse ( feelings he seems incapable of). His need to view himself as the consummate victim usurps reality every time. So now it seems as though “I have won”. Great, how stupid do I feel. I just defeated an adult infant who’s only goal WAS just that.

[Husband321]

In the meantime constant mini-battles of trying to find some reason to paint them black. Not difficult, provoke someone long enough and they will either retaliate in some way, verbal or otherwise, or just leave.

.

Definitely can relate to this.  It could be as little as my tone.  Or a face I made that would set her off and give her reason to leave. Cheat. Rage. Etc.

I think for any of us, while in a relationship, we could always find a reason to cheat. And justify it.  If we had the same inner compulsion to cheating that many of these BPD's have.  "You work to much.  You made a face.   You denied me sex the one day.  Your sibling was rude to me.  You smother me.  You don't give me enough attention" etc etc

And when wrapped up in this strange mix of love, sex, betrayal with kids and other family involved, it's hard to even think straight when constantly being blamed.

[MeandThee29]

I am sure they consciously or unconsciously feel shame about treating their NON as they do. And therefore they desperately try to look for 'evidence'/'validation' to excuse their own horrible behaviour. They even would fabricate stories when deemed necessary.

Mine analyzed me and decided that he is the only person that can make me better. I'm so hopelessly messed up that no one else can do it. His poor, poor wife.

Really? Isn't that giving another human being super powers? When I told my therapist that, she laughed. Certainly professionals like her can suggest and point out things, but no human being can MAKE another human being better.

[JNChell]

Husband321, very much so.

And when wrapped up in this strange mix of love, sex, betrayal with kids and other family involved, it's hard to even think straight when constantly being blamed.

[Cromwell]

Cromwell, the title of your post has been my experience. It boggles the mind when you’re enmeshed in it, only realizing what happened after it’s over. Interesting thread. What’s your take on the discussion so far?

Hi JNChell, the problem is - despite all the streams of quality feedback and experiences - that I really never reach the point of actually "getting it" or unlocking the key to explain much if anything of it.

11 months of research and Ive given up on the trying to theorise the behaviour. I instead shifted focus on myself, first to extricate myself from the relationship now to stay away and build my life back up.

Threads like this is the occasional "aha" moment, it can come from nowhere, such as a quiet walk. It is a comfort to think that I have found a piece of the jigsaw puzzle - it gets input here - I feel validated or get convinced by another poster. I feel a sense of relief.

Until the next day I think it over again and end up thinking "something doesnt quite fit right". im not anymore convinced, my beliefs are suspended once again. It becomes circular and whilst it has added to knowledge of the condition and hear what others have been through, i am by no means any closer to solving any of it - the vast majority of what I have been through has been written-off as "unanswerable", the thing is, im fine with that, can cope with that. now at least.

It is frustrating to an extent, yet I have to remind myself that in addition to BPD my ex had alcohol and substance misuse issues - a lot of behaviour can be influenced by the latter two, and it just makes analysis ever the more complicated.

I use to believe that our relationship was symbiotic, falling short now of calling it parasitic on her part, she resembles more of a tendril that attached to me and I felt drained and unable to find my fulfillment from my own strength. The burden is gone now and each day I rue that I never detached earlier as I realise I got my life back and the illussion I needed her in it to stay happy was just that, an unhealthy illussion that she eventually took away from me and in that hurtful moment subsequently I was freed from her and found the traction to find a different path.

[Husband321]

It is frustrating to an extent, yet I have to remind myself that in addition to BPD my ex had alcohol and substance misuse issues - a lot of behaviour can be influenced by the latter two, and it just makes analysis ever the more complicated

Very much the same here.

My wife would go from health nut, to weeks of heavy drinking, to months of very heavy weed smoking.  Add in severe PMS, and feelings of guilt over abaondoning her previous family, and it is impossible to try and make any sense of it.

I tried so hard. I really wanted some answers. 

It was freeing to just stop wondering and asking questions. 

[Cromwell]

Very much the same here.

My wife would go from health nut, to weeks of heavy drinking, to months of very heavy weed smoking.  Add in severe PMS, and feelings of guilt over abaondoning her previous family, and it is impossible to try and make any sense of it.

I tried so hard. I really wanted some answers.  

It was freeing to just stop wondering and asking questions.  

im a believer that there is some stuff in life it is better unanswered.

Some explanations came to my mind and I had to wince about them. I wonder if its just a reflection of my own mind or if I am being accurate. Either way, in many of those instances I feel better to not know.

Once I consigned it all to 'history' it was freeing as well, not much reason to unravel the twisted ball of twine anymore - there is no going back so besides a learning experience based on the verified dysfunctional antics - to avoid in future - theres not much yield in ruminating too much these days for me, neither emotionally or practically.

[empath]

because if they were to be abandoned by a good person they would have to feel a great deal of inward shame.

And if they can't make you be a bad person, they will lie about you to themselves and others. My h hates that I have put some boundaries in place to keep myself healthy and not angry at him. He complains about the boundaries to his friends and family, and of course, he "didn't do nothing" to cause those boundaries to be there. I'm just being disconnected and not giving him things he is entitled to.

Down deep, my h fears that 'something is really wrong' with him, and people wouldn't like him if they really knew what was going on.