Coparenting with BPD spouse...is it really possible?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Anyone that has been following my posts in a few of the other boards will probably have a good idea what I am talking about in this post.  My W has a need for 'absolute' control over everything including our children.  It is her belief that she since she has been a SAHM, that she gets the final say in anything involving the children.  They are S14 and D11.  She will not allow them to email anyone other than her sister.  They are not allowed to email or call grandparents unless under close supervision (especially if it is my parents).  They are not allowed to go on trips unless she is present, most recently a trip to a theme park with their church youth group.  She is very controlling with any teachers/principles that the kids have interacted with and is the same way with the youth group leaders.  She spends hours going through our S14's phone to review all his messages and internet history etc.  Where I am stuck is that all the things that she is doing are not bad if done in a measured and loving way.  Instead it is all about control.  She knows better than anyone on all subjects.  She has stated that she doesn't care what I think or anyone else thinks, she is going to do what is best for the kids.  Is coparenting even really possible in this scenario?  I feel like I am sitting back with my hands tied and unable to influence or have much of a say in anything.  What is even more concerning is that the children are getting old enough to where they are resenting her for her actions.  They feel like she doesn't trust them or believe in them and just wants to control and find fault.  I am having a difficult time with supporting her and backing her up when the children ask questions or push back against something that she is doing or saying.

WC

[Woodchuck]

Anyone that has been following my posts in a few of the other boards will probably have a good idea what I am talking about in this post.  My W has a need for 'absolute' control over everything including our children.  It is her belief that she since she has been a SAHM, that she gets the final say in anything involving the children.  They are S14 and D11.  She will not allow them to email anyone other than her sister.  They are not allowed to email or call grandparents unless under close supervision (especially if it is my parents).  They are not allowed to go on trips unless she is present, most recently a trip to a theme park with their church youth group.  She is very controlling with any teachers/principles that the kids have interacted with and is the same way with the youth group leaders.  She spends hours going through our S14's phone to review all his messages and internet history etc.  Where I am stuck is that all the things that she is doing are not bad if done in a measured and loving way.  Instead it is all about control.  She knows better than anyone on all subjects.  She has stated that she doesn't care what I think or anyone else thinks, she is going to do what is best for the kids.  Is coparenting even really possible in this scenario?  I feel like I am sitting back with my hands tied and unable to influence or have much of a say in anything.  What is even more concerning is that the children are getting old enough to where they are resenting her for her actions.  They feel like she doesn't trust them or believe in them and just wants to control and find fault.  I am having a difficult time with supporting her and backing her up when the children ask questions or push back against something that she is doing or saying.

WC

[Radcliff]

Coparenting under these circumstances is exceptionally difficult.  One concept that is important to understand is enmeshment.  That linked page is tuned for romantic relationships, but it will give you an introduction, and also may be worth considering with respect to your relationship with your wife.

This may be rather obvious to you, but your wife's indentity is intricately enmeshed with that of your children.  She is not able to let them be independent humans.  You are not going to be able to fix this.  But you can make a major difference for your kids.  Every chance you get, show respect for their opinions, thoughts, and feelings.  Try to draw them out, and show them that they are safe to express themselves with you.  When they are open with you, say you're glad they're being open, and you appreciate their thoughts.  Do this especially if you don't agree with them.  Welcome respectful dissent from them.

You may also want to take a look at the book, Understanding the Borderline Mother.  A couple of cautions about that book -- first, it's tilted towards adult children of borderline mothers, but I still found it useful as a husband/father.  Second, since it talks about the many problems of borderline mothers and the potential repercussions on children, you may find it discouraging, so you'll want to balance it with constructive tool development for coparenting.

What is your relationship like with each of your kids?

WW

[ForeverDad]

Isolation is a common control tactic in the BPD Handbook most people with BPD (pwBPD) seem to have memorized.  Your relatives are cast as just as bad or even worse than you.

Your children are older, approaching or in their teens.  They'e old enough to be safe in your care.  Probably best not to drop them off with your parents or relatives, best not to invite allegations.  But together they will be under your supervision and unless they're associating with Cousin Vinnie the jailbird, no court, lawyer or evaluator will imagine they're in danger.  However, to minimize your stbEx's intrusion on your parenting time and parenting decisions you need to have it CLEARLY written in any temp order during the divorce that your parenting time is your time, she may voice her concerns of course but YOU make the decisions on your parenting time.  Let her have wiggle time and you'll be trying to get court to fix it.  (I had many issues with my temp order.  Yet neither the lawyers nor magistrate nor main judge ever changed one letter of the divorce temp order.  My divorce lasted two weeks shy of two years.  My lawyer had told me "Sh, we'll fix it later."  Later was nearly to years.  It was tough.)

[Woodchuck]

Isolation is a common control tactic in the BPD Handbook most people with BPD (pwBPD) seem to have memorized.  Your relatives are cast as just as bad or even worse than you.

Your children are older, approaching or in their teens.  They'e old enough to be safe in your care.  Probably best not to drop them off with your parents or relatives, best not to invite allegations.

This won't be a problem as our FOO's are thousands of miles away.

  But together they will be under your supervision and unless they're associating with Cousin Vinnie the jailbird, no court, lawyer or evaluator will imagine they're in danger.  However, to minimize your stbEx's intrusion on your parenting time and parenting decisions you need to have it CLEARLY written in any temp order during the divorce that your parenting time is your time, she may voice her concerns of course but YOU make the decisions on your parenting time.  Let her have wiggle time and you'll be trying to get court to fix it.  (I had many issues with my temp order.  Yet neither the lawyers nor magistrate nor main judge ever changed one letter of the divorce temp order.  My divorce lasted two weeks shy of two years.  My lawyer had told me "Sh, we'll fix it later."  Later was nearly to years.  It was tough.)

I do plan on being careful and developing a plan.  As you said, I think one of the keys is to not allow any wiggle room.  I had to clarify a few things with her this weekend that demonstrated how she is really thinking.  I have told her that I am fine with her taking whatever she wants and leaving.  She apparently took this to mean the kids as well.  When I found out that is what she thought, I clarified that I was NOT ok with her taking the kids out of the house and moving somewhere with them.  Of course she proceeded to tell me that I was a liar and that I hadn't meant what I said and could not be trusted. I just remained calm and told her what was ok and not ok.  It is all documented and there will be a big problem if she does try to take them anywhere without my consent.  I think that she is smart enough to know this and wouldn't try anything but at the same time, I don't put anything past her.

WC

[Moving On]

I have told her that I am fine with her taking whatever she wants and leaving.  She apparently took this to mean the kids as well.  When I found out that is what she thought, I clarified that I was NOT ok with her taking the kids out of the house and moving somewhere with them.  Of course she proceeded to tell me that I was a liar and that I hadn't meant what I said and could not be trusted.

This is my first post in about 9 years.   I decided to peek in on my old stomping grounds and saw your comment here.

Yes - my ex definitely thought our kids were "things".   Honestly, she logically knew that they were human, but so far as her treatment of them went, she did not consider them to be autonomous beings.   yikes.

A very big thumbs up on reading Understanding the Borderline Mother.  My copy is is rough shape because I read it front to back three times.  And lent it out a couple of times as well.   It helped me understand (truly "get") how she thought about things, why she did the things she did, etc.   It'll be invaluable for you going forward.  I promise.

The keys so far as "co-parenting" goes here is that you will have to create a separate environment for your children.   While it's tempting to directly undermine the bad parenting aspects you've identified, you definitely don't want to do that.  But you do want to create a "normal" environment for them as much as you can.   As ForeverDad mentioned, you might have to define the flexibility of your parenting time specifically stated (for her benefit mostly, and possibly from a legal standpoint).   In a "normal" situation that wouldn't be an issue, but we don't "do" normal.  Ha... .

My ex was very nearly as bad as you describe, and I was able (over the course of about the same number of years that you will have) to get them to be mostly independent and help them become socially "functional".  I actually found that the latter took more work.  Countering the damage imposed by my ex's enmeshment was a difficult but very satisfying job.  Good luck!   It can be done.

[worriedStepmom]

In a rare moment of honesty, my H's uBPDex told him that is was really really hard for her now that their daughter is 11.  When SD11 was younger, uBPDex could get away with exercising ultimate control - never allowing SD to play alone or even go outside alone, always being involved in everything SD did, etc. It got to the point that when SD was with us, uBPDex insisted that SD text her a few times every hour to tell her exactly where SD was/what she was doing.

However, now that SD was older, uBPDex was finding it very difficult to "keep her daughter safe".  SD pushed back on having her mom hover and be involved in everything.   H put his foot down about her monitoring SD at our home.

The more SD pushed back, the more anxious uBPDex got.  Now she was worried about keeping SD safe AND worried that SD didn't love her anymore.  She felt she was a bad mom if she wasn't constantly with SD... .but also a bad mom if SD complained, so she felt like she couldn't ever win.  H and I think that triggered some of the emotional dysregulation spiral that uBPDex has been on over the last year.

We are unable to influence uBPDex to change her behaviors or thinking. We are only able to establish boundaries around our home so that SD doesn't always have to deal with all of that.

While you and your wife are living in the same home, I have strong doubts that you will be able to effectively coparent, unless coparenting is you following 100% of her rules when the children are in your care.  My H and his uBPDex don't coparent so much as parallel parent.  He informs her of things we think she needs to know and then parents his own way while SD is in our home.  There are almost zero common rules, schedules, or practices at the two homes.  uBPDex gets really upset at the way we parent... .shrug.  She's also really really really really really upset that we take SD to a therapist... .so H was able to get the custody agreement changed so that he has sole mental health decision-making powers.

I understand that you love your wife and don't want to initiate a divorce ... .but I think your children would be best off if they weren't living with your wife all the time.  If you aren't able to convince your wife to moderate her behaviors (and she's already admitted she doesn't care what you think), then giving them a safe space where they can be themselves and not perfect extensions of her would definitely be in their benefit.

[AnuDay]

Woodchuck, it's going to take every fiber of your being to reverse the damage that has been done to your children.  You are going to lose a lot of points with your wife and maybe even your marriage.  You cannot allow the control to continue.  You must let your children establish their own identities.  You must break the enmeshment/brainwashing that your wife has embedded into your children.  You have to do this in order to break the cycle of mental illness.   A lot of what you have been writing on this site has been about what your wife wants to do and none of it sounds healthy. 

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck, it's going to take every fiber of your being to reverse the damage that has been done to your children.  You are going to lose a lot of points with your wife and maybe even your marriage.  You cannot allow the control to continue.  You must let your children establish their own identities.  You must break the enmeshment/brainwashing that your wife has embedded into your children.  You have to do this in order to break the cycle of mental illness.   A lot of what you have been writing on this site has been about what your wife wants to do and none of it sounds healthy. 

Anuday and everyone else-
I really appreciate the insight!  I think that by the grace of God, our kids have not been emeshed too much.  Our son had the opportunity to share his testimony at church last week.  He had me help him with writing everything out.  I was very humbled and proud at the same time.  The point to this though is, he asked me to help him and refused to share his draft with his mom.  Finally, the day before he was going to get up and speak at church, his mom told him that if he didn't give her a copy of it, she was going to take his phone away.  He relented but not 'quietly'.  He sent her an email titled 'Merry Christmas'.  In the email, he attached the document and wrote the following:

'I will tell you right now, I am not changing ANYTHING for you and I will say whatever I feel I should say.  You have no right to tell me what to say for my testimony.  And as long as I am still honoring my parents in how I say things then I am following God's law.  NO ONE IS PERFECT AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE ASHAMED OF ANY IMPERFECTIONS YOU MAY HAVE.'

I was extremely impressed with how well he stood up to her in a calm and respectful manner.  He did it better than I probably could.  With that being said, I do see the impact that it is having on both the children and the amount of anxiety etc it is causing and it is not good. 

WC

[Radcliff]

Darn, WC, if he were my son, I'd be a very, very proud dad!

The most powerful tools we have are the example we set of unconditional love and respect for our children.  Directly confronting our spouses or setting our sights on modifying their behavior is usually a losing proposition.

WW

[ForeverDad]

You ex may try to invalidate him, get him to back down, perhaps even blame you for inciting it.  Probably you can't prevent that, but you can validate him appropriately, though without "egging him on" to poke the beast.  Probably best that ex can't accuse you of doing this.  Your son set a boundary for himself, rather plainly.  Boundaries are good.

[AnuDay]

Good point ForverDad.  I taught my children very early to stand up to their mother.  They took a bit of punishment for doing so, some of which was physical.  My children are still young, but with my help they have sufficiently worn down about 90% of the UBPD mom's physical attacks which involve hitting, deprivation of material things such as going places, toys, buying things etc.  The psychological attacks, as ForeverDad mentioned, they don't have the knowledge or skills yet to combat, but I've been working with them on that.  Your son sounds like he took a very positive and strong stance and he should be commended (in private) for that.