I've studied lessons... still not sure.

[PianoDood]

 
I have studied the lessons in this board extensively. I'm still unsure how to approach my wife with issues. It seems that no matter how I approach her, she either Flatout ignores issues and, if I repeatedly approached her, she then says I'm a broken record. The bottom line is, we always end up talking about anything that bothers her, I wind up owning things that I truly believe I might have done wrong, but issues on my side and never... .And I do mean never... .Get discussed, addressed, owned and healed. And I truly have been applying the lessons and trying to not be invalidating hey... Got very frustrated that she refuses to take ownership, apologize or heal the effect her behavior has on our relationship. Over time, this has created a situation where the relationship is completely imbalanced, I I'm required 2 simply let things go now showing there is a huge possibility she will repeat the behavior. At a loss for what to do. At the moment, things are calm, we are in a stable condition at the moment, although I wouldn't call it idealization. Very frustrating that she does not see the benefit of owning and healing the effect of her behavior on me and our marriage. The worst part is knowing that, her lack of ownership typically results in repeated Behavior. I have a very strong individual and truly love my wife, but it does get exhausting in an imbalanced relationship. My own personal esteem is high, however, it is exhausting to go through periods where I have to fight to maintain high self esteem.  We have been together 12 years, married for 5. Early in the relationship, I struggled severely when she would devalue and discard. With the help of these learning materials, I have learned 2 not take things as personally knowing it is her disorder talking. But, when the behavior does appear, I struggle sometimes to keep it in proper perspective based upon what I've learned on this website.Has anyone experienced something similar? If so, how did you handle it? Do you have to just radically accept is simply learn how to forgive constantly without being asked? Any personal witness from members would be helpful.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Yellowpearl]

Hey! I've definitely struggled with having the pwBPD making any changes on his end after I tried applying some of these coping skills and communication tools. I always seem to run into blame shifting and projection. I've been trying to avoid JADEING and that seems to help. Even if in the moment you can't validate yourself properly by validating them by not JADEing, (and this can sink self-esteem for me), I learned to realize, those with BPD, once they see you accept their side and are empathetic to their silly behaviors, they will come around and see your side on their own, without you really having to do anything except not make the conflicts worse. Listen, empathize and validate is what I've been trying to do. It's still a long road for me though...

What i'm also doing now is just controlling my own reactions and responses and having the mindset that the less we engage in the chaos, the more stable things will be. It's a working process and he just got back from no contact for 2 months and things are pretty fragile so i'd been using as many skills as I can. It's very discouraging when you don't see results but I'm thinking it will just take some time.

Can I ask what particular tools that you have been trying out and what kind of responses you get? What kind of problems have you been running into?

[once removed]

youre recently (and several times) broken up, right?

let go of the issues. for now.

we cant make things better until we stop making them worse.

it will go much further to connect (emotionally, romantically, keep things light and upbeat and get back to enjoying each others company), then to start trying to operate on the same page, than to approach her with a laundry list. its not a strategy for reversing a breakup.

lets tackle the issues here.

1. what are the primary issues for you as you see them
2. what are the primary issues for her as she sees them (not as you see them)

[PianoDood]

Yes, there have been three discards this year.

It is true that we can't improve anything until we stop making them worse. My issue was that I didn't realize how badly I was making it worse by not adjusting to and dealing with the aspects of BPD thinking and behavior.

It's funny that you mention a laundry list of issues. First, before I had my Epiphany a few days ago thanks to I believe your reply to one of my posts in The Other Board, I actually sat down and made a list of issues I wanted to cover with her that never get covered from my perspective. And then I stopped to ask myself, how will this list be received by her? The answer was, it would have made her shut down and distance from me. Not because I was asking for anything wrong, but because it would have been received negatively buy her. So, I encouraged her to spend time with me instead of shutting down this weekend. I set aside all of the issues that I need validation for and just loved her, was normal with her, spoke openly with her and it had an amazing effect. Last night, she openly from her heart admitted that her past relationship before she met me was a very damaging one to her. She lost her first born child under tragic circumstances when she was just 19 years old. The 14-year relationship with her ex-boyfriend, with whom she has three children, was abusive, a narcissistic, domineering man and a serious drug user and Criminal. He went to prison for trying to kill her when she left him. She admitted last night openly for the first time that she has a huge amount of emotional and mental damage from that relationship she has never taken any action to heal within herself. And she realizes that damage has become baggage she carried into our relationship. And she told me she needed to do something about it meaning get therapy and potentially, get medication to help her with her chronic depression. Now, that doesn't mean we've magically crossed into Utopia here, but it is a breakthrough. All because I took the pressure off, validated her feelings in spite of how strongly I need mine validated, and listen to her without interruption. Whether or not I agreed.

The primary issues as I see them:
(1)  Problem resolution and communication.
Very few things get resolved quickly,  which is one of the characteristics of a healthy relationship,  IMHO.  Most of the time,  there is no resolution or direct healing at all for words and deeds only she can own.   While I accept my responsibility if I say or do something that hurts her and do my best to not repeat the behavior,  she rarely... .like almost never... .apologizes after she goes into what I have coined "Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Heidi" mode (her name is Heidi... .obviously) and says and does things that leave me crushed.  She just lets them fade away,  sweeps it under the rug,  deflects... .the whole toolbox. Takes very strong person to make the conscious decision to set aside those kinds of things, love their spouse enough to become their caretaker and help them by not making it worse. But, the rewards are obvious. What is even stranger is this... .Friday night, this weekend, she was complaining of a back ache so I gave her some naproxen sodium. You have to understand my wife rarely even takes over the counter medication because she is severely reacted to drugs and other things. Well, we wound up in the emergency room with my wife having a severe allergic reaction, a very rare one, two naproxen sodium. It had a strange effect. I think my wife was not only appreciative but somewhat awakened by the way I stepped up and took care of her that night. I think it gave her a sense of security that I truly do love her. Because she thanked me for conversing with the doctor when she was in such pain and couldn't having her back when the doctor gave her medication and asking the doctor questions. I think she saw that I truly do love her and want to take care of her as your husband. I think that gave her a sense of security. Yesterday, she opened up to me quite a bit about things. On many different subjects. Things that she had never told me before. That's when she confessed to me that she knows her past has caused her a huge amount of emotional and mental damage but she has not addressed. That was able to let her know that I truly am trying to adjust to the things that she sees as issues.

(2)  She is a people pleaser.
The problem with being a people-pleaser is that you wind up miserable, pleasing no one. Not even yourself. My wife is a people pleaser. Unfortunately, from my perspective, it results in a lower priority than what I believe should exist for her husband for just about everyone and everything else in her life.  And I don't mean little things... .For example, what caused an argument the last discard was the fact that she and I had plans to go do something for the holiday season for 5 days. One hour before we were supposed to leave to go do this oh, she changes the plan 2 convenience her oldest son. So, we don't go do what we had planned for 5 days just because she needed to do something to appease her oldest son. Something he easily could have done for himself. Now, while I believe children should have a high priority, all three of her children are adults. And it was not an emergency. But, she changed the plan anyway at the very last minute. This caused the argument that caused her to shut down on me for another week.

There are probably other issues I could list but this could get very long LOL

Primary issues as she has told me:
(I'll hold my own invalidating thoughts and just make the list! ;)

(1)  I'm too critical of her and invalidate her feelings and opinions
(2)  I am impossible to reason with once I, myself,  am triggered in our toxic dance.

One of the things I frequently tell her is this... .Do something different. Instead of reacting in the same ways, do something different. I'm trying, now, to take my own advice in regard to my Approach with my life. I genuinely love her, we truly do have a good relationship. But over time, we have become toxic, carrying all of this resentment and anger between us that is built up over the years. And I need to do my part to adjust to her. It's not going to be easy I can tell that already. There will be a lot more giving than receiving in terms of validation, at least at the beginning. But, I love her enough to do it. The past two days have not only giving me hope but has also reaffirmed my belief in our relationship.

[PianoDood]

Yellowpearl... .I have been trying to focus on shifting my own reactions, not taking the toxic things she says and does personally, although that is difficult at times, I have been setting aside my own concerns to allow her and I a chance to reconnect without pressure or feeling like she has to deal with a laundry list of things, have listened to her without interrupting or being what she calls critical or invalidating, have been making an effort to validate her as much as I possibly can which is hard when you're not getting any validation in return, but it has had a positive effect. The problem I'm running into, is the one you stated above. I am trying to love her enough to validate her and adjust to her BPD thinking and behavior without seeing any validation to my side at all.

[Bnonymous]

Hi PianoDood,

I have been trying to focus on shifting my own reactions, not taking the toxic things she says and does personally, although that is difficult at times, I have been setting aside my own concerns to allow her and I a chance to reconnect without pressure or feeling like she has to deal with a laundry list of things, have listened to her without interrupting or being what she calls critical or invalidating, have been making an effort to validate her as much as I possibly can which is hard when you're not getting any validation in return, but it has had a positive effect.

That's great that you're finding new approaches are having positive effects. Some will be noticable straight away, but others might take time and patience. Hang in there - you're doing really well and definitely heading in the right direction.

I am trying to love her enough to validate her and adjust to her BPD thinking and behavior without seeing any validation to my side at all.

I think most of us can relate to that. It can be hard not to end up screaming in our heads "What about me? What about my feelings/thoughts/needs?". A lot of us have been there.

Keep doing what you're doing. Eventually she might reach a place where she can give validation back. If she doesn't (and in the meantime), you might need to take a "radical acceptance" view. The reality is that the person you love is presently unable to give you the validation you need. You can fight that and scream to the heavens about how unfair it is (and, believe me, most of us have done that!) or you can accept it - there really can be tremendous relief in acceptance.

(There's a workshop about radical acceptance here - I don't know if this is one of the things you've already studied, if not, maybe check it out? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0 )

Accepting it doesn't mean resigning yourself to your needs being unmet. Where else can you get validation? You will find it here. You may find it with a therapist. But I would guess that the most valuable form of validation you could get right now is from friends and/or family members. Is there any trusted person you can spend some time with? Spending some time talking things over with someone who knows you, listens, and cares can be really valuable. Also, spending some time just chilling out and having fun with friends (where your situation is not the focus) can also help you to rest and recharge and feel better about things.

What do you think?

[PianoDood]

One of the challenges of this relationship is that I am fairly isolated here where I live. I moved here because this is where my wife's family is from. My family is 200 miles away. I do have very good friends, but I can only speak to them regularly on the telephone. So yes, I do have a support system. It's just not next door.

[PianoDood]

Yes. I was contributing to much of the conflict myself I always holding onto the desire for her to validate me, on something and apologize. I'm not saying I'm out of the woods by any stretch, but since I have decided to at least except, for the moment, that's just who she is and where she is, it has helped tremendously to relieve my own stress and pressure. It still feels inherently wrong to not have those boundaries and expect them to be respected, but, with time, hopefully the positive effects I'm saying will continue. She does seem ready to start opening up to a lot of things... .Her physical health, her mental and emotional well-being. Time will tell, but she already seems much more open and Desiring a connection. Just trying to be careful that I'm not simply seeing signs of another recycle. That's the confusing part of this whole situation.  I'm still on pins and needles, however, I have chosen to radically except which is, to me, almost the polar opposite of what my intuition and emotions are telling me right now. But, I am very pleased with the positive outcome and progress so far in connection with my wife.

[once removed]

And then I stopped to ask myself, how will this list be received by her? The answer was, it would have made her shut down and distance from me. Not because I was asking for anything wrong, but because it would have been received negatively buy her.

if i were on the fence about getting back with an ex partner, and they came to me with a list, it would all seem like a lot of work, it might seem like demands, it might seem like theyre making me out to be the problem... .its not something id be into or would push me over the fence toward getting back together.

it was good to sit down and think through the things you want to tackle. it will give you clarity going forward. and it was also good to pause and consider how she might receive it, and table it for a while.

certainly part of healthy relationships is resolving conflict together. you have some issues that youd like to see resolved. when the relationship gets on more stable footing, in times of calm, there are ways to discuss these things, and work to get on the same page.

So, I encouraged her to spend time with me instead of shutting down this weekend. I set aside all of the issues that I need validation for and just loved her, was normal with her, spoke openly with her and it had an amazing effect.

light, fun, upbeat, being reminded of all the reasons i fell for an ex partner are the sorts of things that would push me over the fence toward getting back with them.

Last night, she openly from her heart admitted that her past relationship before she met me was a very damaging one to her.

its a good sign that she confided this in you. it means there is some level of trust. it also means there is a great deal of baggage that shes brought into the relationship. that is not something you can necessarily resolve or heal for her. but a rock solid, strong, confident, as well as benign, and loving partner, can be a healing experience.

says and does things that leave me crushed.  She just lets them fade away,  sweeps it under the rug,  deflects... .the whole toolbox. Takes very strong person to make the conscious decision to set aside those kinds of things, love their spouse enough to become their caretaker and help them by not making it worse.

it really does, PD. its one thing to say "take this stuff less personally, see it for what it is". but its coming from a loved one. it feels very personal. and it hurts. on top of that, it pushes us away; we need some time and space to lick our wounds, and our partners often arent very understanding about that. you need an outlet for those times. it will also help, not just to take it "less personally", but not to react in the moment; to show that it doesnt work, and that there is a better, more rewarding way to communicate with you. that will take some effort over time, too. this is stuff shes gonna have to unlearn, and then learn better ways.

So, we don't go do what we had planned for 5 days just because she needed to do something to appease her oldest son.

right or wrong, for a mother, a son will often come first. the best reaction to this is not to fight it, it will push her further in that direction, and you will make yourself the bad guy, trying to come between them. again though, when things are more stable, in times of calm, there are ways of talking about these things, working through them, trying to get on the same page. she may not understand how it makes you feel when she cancels plans. you will want to better understand why she prioritizes her son, without judgment. you meet in between, and find a workable solution.

Primary issues as she has told me:
(I'll hold my own invalidating thoughts and just make the list! ;)

(1)  I'm too critical of her and invalidate her feelings and opinions
(2)  I am impossible to reason with once I, myself,  am triggered in our toxic dance.

nicely done. now, looking at this from her perspective and without judgment, is there any truth to these?

[PianoDood]

Through her perspective?  Yes.  Absolutely.  If I was problem solving with a non-BPD?  Would never reach that level of frustration.   Lol.  However, I am adjusting to make it easier for us to communicate while still maintaining my own identity,  mental and emotional health... .yes,  being extremely sensitive to emotions,  I can see why she would see it that way.   And,  to make it better,  I have to stop making it worse first.   I do react in a way that says "what human being would say or do such a thing to someone they love?" and when I set boundaries and separate, I do get demanding and expect her to own her behavior,  which she usually does not... .mainly because dealing with her own emotions is difficult enough.   Dealing with the emotions someone who is upset at her behavior just isn't possible and she sees any negative reaction,  no matter how human and justified,  as frightening.   She also told me over the weekend that she knows she messes things up and then doesn't know how to fix them... .Paints herself in emotional Corners, so to speak. So, she realizes what she does when she is in a more normal frame of mind. She just has not learned to intercept the process she's been wired to repeat. Therefore, to make it workable for her, I must adjust and learn when that adjustment is necessary so that I can maintain as many of my healthy boundaries as possible while she works through her own issues.

[once removed]

youve got the right idea 

i think a lot of us overestimate both our empathy levels, and our communication skills.

being able to see not only her perspective, but why she would have it, is a great exercise in empathy. empathy (understanding) is really essential in these relationships... .in any relationship, but especially important in these.

have you worked through the communication skills here?

have you read this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[PianoDood]

I think I just witnessed the most overt shift between dr. Jekyll and Miss Heidi that I have ever seen from my wife. And before I go into it, I want to say that I have learned something from it. Stay with me here. Yesterday afternoon when she got off work, my wife texted me and told me she would call me and talk to me last night since, temporarily, she's living at her parents house instead of with me at our house. Part of the discard period anyway... .So she tells me she's going to call me last night but she doesn't call, no text nothing. No communication whatsoever from her. Typically, this kind of behavior... .Saying you're going to do something and then not doing it... .would irritate me. But I let it slide until my wife texted me this morning on her way to work and I asked her why she had called. Immediately I was painted black. She didn't want to talk about why she hadn't called, so immediately I became the target... .first, it was my fault that I didn't call her last night even though she had specifically said she would call me after dinner sorry waiting for her. The second thing she tried was to accuse me of getting off the phone early with her on Tuesday because I had something better to do when in fact, I got off the phone with her early Tuesday so she could search for her insurance information to make appointments that she's needed to make four years to take care of herself. The third thing she tried was telling me that I was hiding something from her and mentioned the fact that I keep two unused bedroom doors closed at our house all the time. Basically, accused me of hiding something in those rooms that I didn't want her to see. When in fact, I have told her this is your house as well you can go anywhere you want, I keep those bedrooms closed because the registers are turned off because I don't see the need to heat rooms that I'm not using for anything but storage so I keep the doors closed. Basically, she was avoiding talking about why she hadn't called the night before.  Then, no communication from her until after she gets off work when she calls me and is just as bright and happy and chipper as I've ever heard her. No mention of keeping secrets in the bedrooms, no mention of having something better to do on the side when I got off the phone from her, no mention of me being at fault for the lack of communication from her. Just bright cherry and I love you honey. And I had done nothing in between to trigger her except ask her why she hadn't called me the night before when she told me she would. The first thing I learned from this, which I already knew, is how volatile my wife can be when she is dealing with her own emotions. The second thing you're taught me is, yet again something I already knew, that my wife will make up her own reality to fit whatever it is she's trying to avoid. The third thing I learned is that if I remain calm, don't react like I usually do, let it run its course, she usually will come back to the land of reality and start acting right. It's just strange to sit here and literally watch an illness in action.

[once removed]

The third thing I learned is that if I remain calm, don't react like I usually do, let it run its course, she usually will come back to the land of reality and start acting right. It's just strange to sit here and literally watch an illness in action.

if you "usually" react, its possible that when you asked her, she anticipated you being reactive. my ex would get into a line of questioning that would drive me nuts, so sometimes even an innocuous question would get my guard up. so its possible she was over compensating, expecting a battle. not giving it was a good move.

how did you respond at the time?