Domestic violence - accountability vs support. How to balance?

[Lost In Thought]

My wife was recently arrested for domestic violence and there is a protection order in place which prohibits her from being in the same house as my daughter and I.   In a few weeks she will have to appear at her court date and the DA remarked (since we don't want to press charges) the judge will likely put her on probation for 18 months but the protection order will remain in effect for that full duration.

My counselor believes she is suffering from BPD (but has not been formally evaluated).  I am reading the book "Walking on Eggshells" and it talks about holding them accountable and not encouraging the BP rollercoaster by trying to appease her. 

A part of me wants to say "She is in dire need of help and I should be there for her" and the other part is saying "She should be responsible for her actions".

She currently is unemployed, so do I ask her to get a job and pay for all the costs associated with legal council, court fees, probation fees, counseling, living separately etc.?  Or, do I support her and pay for it out of our joint account?

If we pay for it out of our joint account, I feel as if I am being penalized, but on the other hand, being my wife, she is entitled to some of that as well. 

What is the right way to approach this?

How do I straddle the fence between holding her accountable and/or being supportive?

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[Radcliff]

Welcome, Lost in Thought.  I am sorry that you're facing the difficult situation you're in, but am glad you've found us, and glad you've passed through an important milestone in getting official recognition of the DV.

Can you tell us more about the history of DV, as well as your relationship.  How long have you been together?  When did you first experience DV?  What things has she done?  What for and how did she get arrested?

RC

[Lost In Thought]

Can you tell us more about the history of DV, as well as your relationship. 

Ok, that is a very loaded question... .one that took weeks to fully explain to my counselor.    I will try to keep it short and brief as possible, but I warn you... .it is complex and tentacles that stretch on forever... .

We have been married for 28 years.

tl;dr;
Working with my counselor I have come to realize that it all started 20+ years ago, but we came to a pivotal point about 3 years ago.   In essence, I am an overly accommodating person, so most of those 15 years, the conflicts we had were over trivial things; kids not cleaning their rooms, who does the dishes; getting to church on time; etc.   So, I naturally didn't want to pick nits and just went along with whatever she wanted.

The first incident was 20+ years ago when she was yelling at our children as we were driving calling them names.  That was the first time (and last time until the pivot point) I put my foot down.   I told her that she could say their actions were stupid, etc., but name calling was not appropriate.  From that point on, I "broke her trust" and she never again would tell me "I love you".   She would do things and be caring, but never again would she say those words.

The years passed.  I started a company with my business partner and she wanted to help.    She took over the office administration.  Being a small company, we oftentimes overlooked the things she did (or didn't do) that were important to running the company (such as billing, financials, AR etc.).   She did what she wanted to do and would ignore what we needed to run the company.   Little by little my partner was getting frustrated and finally said, I am tired of hearing excuses from you about what you wife is not doing.  She needs to take responsibility for her performance.

That year, he refused to give her a bonus (which we do almost every year for our employees).   She flew off the handle and accused me of not supporting her (despite the fact that I had been doing so for many years before).   She accused me of "being in bed with my partner and not her".   So, she left our bed and slept on the floor in the closet for months.  (I know, I know... .I should have figured this out earlier... .but I just thought she was mad at me and she needed some space).   I broke her trust again, didn't have her back, was greedy and only cared about money, and was married to my partner.   She was heartbroken.

Time passes... .she still is working for the company... .still sleeping in the closet... .still being toxic to everyone, and me being too accommodating.   One day, while on a business trip, my daughter calls me up in a panic and tells me that her mom is hitting her and wouldn't stop.   My son and his roommate come down from college and pick her up and take her to where they live.   I get on the next flight out in the morning.   I pick her up and we head back home, but she is too scared, so we stay the night in a hotel.  Upon returning we get into another big argument and I tell her that I can't take it any longer.   I pack up and go to a hotel for a few weeks and search for an apartment that my daughter and I can live (when she is with me).

By this point, my daughter has been in counseling for some time with all of the fighting she has had with her mother and the stresses at school.  (this is another whole backstory... .but will leave it off for now).   We decide to also do couples counseling and for 9 months we just keep spinning our wheels.   Every time we talk, it just brings up more ghosts for her, and nothing gets done to solve our problem.   I decide that perhaps we should go to marriage counseling and we do a retreat.   It was helpful, but even at the very end, she would make quips and remarks that it was because of me.

On the way home, at the airport, she confides in me that she is very worried about us being apart and how her family will see it.  In her culture, women are blamed when a relationship fails.   In the hopes that we can put all of this behind us once and for all, I agree to moving back; with the condition that I get rid of absolutely everything that I took there.  Nothing is to come back to the house and remind her of our pain.   (I know, I still didn't get it!)    I gave absolutely everything away to charity (I guess they made out!

Things went OK for a while, but I was always on eggshells.   We continued to go to counseling (lasted 18 months) until her wrath turned on the counselor.   He looked back at me and was genuinely afraid.  He finally understood what I had been going through, but not being trained in someone with BPD, he didn't recognize it.   He was also a "tell me how you feel"-type counselor, not an active one.

We stopped seeing the counselor and things were pretty much status quo.   I still never knew what to say, and did everything to avoid a conflict (which also means I didn't jump in to help my kids out when she raged on them).  

The situation worsened at work, my business partner was so fed up, he started looking for a replacement and I told her what was going on.   She started getting more and more rages, until the day came when he walked into the office, called a meeting and told her that she was fired.   I, at first, didn't want to enter the room, but she called me in.   The raging went on, but he has a stronger personality than I do and just followed through (though he did look at me like WOAH, I can only imagine what you have been going through).

It was hell on wheels for a while after that.   Constant quips and remarks about her being left out on the street, and I'm not her #1, etc. etc.    I became so worn down and beaten, that I started looking for ways to stop the pain.   I cared for her, but just couldn't stand to continue the way we have been going so I proposed that we sell the house (which is too big and costly to maintain... .and I wanted to get out of it anyway), and move to our cabin in the mountains, and step down from the company.   (nope... .I still didn't get it yet!)  

Things actually started to improve, however.   It gave us a focus on something other than work and her being fired.   I started warming up and looking forward to early retirement.   Until the fateful day (on my daughter's birthday) that a work event that she felt personal with occurred and "I sold her out" by settling in a company lawsuit that she was named in (it was not about her, but she was in it because she was the office manager (HR) at the time).   She disagreed with us settling as it "admitted guilt", so she threw a fork at my daughter (who tried to stand up for me), threw dinner plates everywhere, and my daughter took off to her room and called 911.

The police came, took our stories and said that mine and my daughters were closer together than hers, and arrested her.   That was almost 3 weeks ago and to this day, my daughter doesn't want any contact other than text/email (and I agree myself).   We are terrified at what she will do/say.    Not that I think she will be physically abusive, but more mentally and emotionally abusive.   The legal and other bills are now $12k+ and I am feeling like I am being punished for what she has done.   She is going to have to live at the cabin or away from the house somewhere for 18 months at a minimum and likely the protection order will remain as is (no contact other than digital).   They will force her to go to counseling, but that typically means DV and anger management counseling, which my counselor says will likely do no good.   She needs to be evaluated for BPD and if so, then she should get counseling by someone who is experience in DBT (dialectical behavior therapy).

To make matters worse, ever since we got married, I could never have any friends or partake in any personal activities because of "needing to be there for her and to support her".  Not that she directly prohibited it, in fact, she would sometimes tell me to go out.   The problem is, I never felt like I could without feeling guilty nor did I know when it would backfire on me and cause me more pain when I returned.  So I just never made any friends or had any kind of personal life of my own.   I was always known as "her Husband".   Now, I struggle to get out and meet people.   I know I need to, but it goes against all I have known for the last 28+ years.   That is a lot to undo.   I am working on it though.

Anyway, I, myself am so lost as to how to proceed.   What should I do next?   Should I continue getting the house ready for sale, or do I put my life on hold waiting for her to get through counseling?   Even with her away, I still feel trapped.


So... .now you have the much abbreviated story behind my first post.   I warned you... .LOL  

[Lost In Thought]

Oh, forgot one thing (as if you didn't have enough to read already):

I started my counselor the week before the DV incident because I was feeling like moving to the cabin was just switching our focus, but not fixing anything.   I was worried it would come back again to haunt me.   Little did I know it would have happened the following week!    I just kept on with the sessions, but she is also not trained in BPD; but at least she knows how to recognize it.   

Through her, she has shown me that all of this may be related to her suffering from BPD.   Again, my wife has not been formally evaluated, but it certainly points to a BPD case.   Now, after all these years... .I am finally starting to get it... .just not sure what do with it now that I have it.  ;)

Thanks for the bending of your ear (or perhaps the burning of your eyes in this case).   Helps sometimes to talk it out.

[GaGrl]

I know the number of years in your marriage is a factor. My DH divorced his ex (uNPD/BPD) after 33 years of legal marriage ; he had not been able to live with her for 14 years. The FOG was thick.

I would encourage you to focus and clarify your core values. Let them guide you to decisions regarding your wife and what you are or are not willing and able to do under the circumstances. Let the legal process take its own course, and don't interfere. (DH's ex could only understand dire circumstances and consequences when she was arrested.) Take your responsibility as a father into consideration.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the detail.  You've given us a good picture of your situation; that helps.  I'm sorry for all that you're going through.  I understand it very well, having been in a 30 year relationship with a BPD wife who became violent.  This thread, and the two follow-on threads cover much of my story:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316175.0;all

Job 1, as you know, is your daughter.  Her situation is complex.  A part of her wants to think her mother is good.  Protect her, give her your time and your understanding, but be careful when speaking of your wife.  You probably know this intuitively, but I wanted to mention it.  She needs stability, and your steady love.  She needs you to be her rock, which means you are going to have to reach out to others for the support you need.

I had a similar situation with pressing charges.  I told the DA I didn't want to press charges.  A part of me wishes I'd just given all of my evidence to the DA, and not pushed it either way -- just said, "take the evidence and make your decision, and I'll testify if you need me to."  I shielded my wife from the consequences of her actions for a long time.

If you have a court system that supports evaluations that would lead to DBT, that seems like a good thing.  Be prepared for her to go through all the domestic violence classes and DBT therapy and not get better.  There is no way to predict what will happen, and DBT for certain would be a healthy thing for her to try, and a valuable thing for her and your children.  But I experienced a lot of personal pain coming to grips with the fact that after DBT and the DV program, my wife had not gotten to where I'd hoped she would be.  So, go for it, but do your best to manage your expectations.

I particularly related to your point about how isolated you feel.  Right down to the part about our wives encouraging us to go out, yet we didn't feel able to.  I've spent the last year working on my relationships with my daughters, working through depression and all sorts of other emotions, and re-finding the identity I'd lost.  I've reconnected to old friends and made new ones.  I've picked up a sport I hadn't enjoyed for 30 years.  Things are still tough at times, but they are getting better.

You are going to need diverse sources of support.  It's time to get to work.  Do you have siblings, cousins, parents, etc. who you can lean on?  Old friendships you can rekindle?  Who are those "special" people in your past who can handle the tough stuff and are safe sources of support?

RC

[Lost In Thought]

Thanks Gagrl and Radcliff for your replies.   I will check out your story.

I don't really have anyone to go to, and right now everything is on the hush-hush with the families; especially her side.    The counselor is all I have at the moment and she helps me see things from an external perspective.

She told me to get out and do things; so I am going to join a club, or do some woodworking; etc.   My daughter will be back at college next week (another city), so I will be alone.   My other two kids are in the Army, my son is deployed (as of yesterday) and the other lives in Hawaii and is going to have a baby in May.   She has had real problems with her mom (the primary reason she joined the Army).   She didn't want her at the wedding and doesn't want her there for the birth of the baby.   As for my deployed son, I can talk to him from afar, but he is somewhat like me, and tries to avoid conflict.   He doesn't want to get in the middle (though he full well knows what has happened).   He will tell us "You two work it out."

Anyway, right now I feel OK; I don't feel depressed, and I am actually doing things that I never could do before.   Last weekend I cleaned the garage!   I can't tell you how long I have been trying to do that.   I started working out again (had trouble with breathing and heart issues that I wonder if they were stress and anxiety related).   It feels good actually to be able to not be on pins and needles right now.  I feel good about coming home.

Perhaps I am still numb and it will hit me later.   But I feel like I am able to function for now.   It is peace, and being void of drama, that I seek most right now and I am getting that to some degree being alone.   I will seek out help and look to make friends as best as I can.   It doesn't help when you are an introvert on top of it all!  But, I will try.

Well, I am going to read some more of the book... .I am at the chapter where it starts to explain how to develop the tools to deal with a BP in your life.   Perhaps there is still hope, but I feel bad at times for saying that part of me doesn't want to get back with her.   Then, I will hear in my head "Family comes first", "We stick by each other through thick and thin", and "... .until death do us part"; and the cycle repeats.   I have yet to get a good nights sleep.

I know it will take time; and I have been told to not make any decisions right now.   Being a project manager in my profession, that just makes it harder for me to deal with.   I am always looking for a goal to work towards, and right now I have no vision what that goal is.   

Anyway, thanks again.   

[Lost In Thought]

Radcliff,

I couldn't help but read through your story.   It seemed to end in Part 3, but felt like there is more (no continuation link).

I certainly can identify with a lot of what you have/are going through; though I will say your wife was a lot more verbal and physical than mine.  The part about the shorts in the fish tank... .I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it did make me laugh.   

I am going to try some of the things you worked through with the help of Skip, Pearlsw, flourdust, FF and many others.  In my case she is already out of the house and I will likely have no direct contact with her for 18+ months, so I don't have to deal with the call/no-call police and setting up a safety plan.   I just need to learn about boundaries and how to identify what truly are my values.   I think all of mine are through her colored glasses right now.   

I assume since your avatar lists ex-RP that you are no longer in that relationship?

If I may ask: Did you post how things proceeded after October of last year and how the DA handled things?   Part 3 left off with you both going to a MC but it wasn't working.   What happened then?    You seemed to be trying so hard to keep things going, what finally made the decision? 

Thanks everyone.   I will check back in from time to time and let you know how things go.   

[Skip]

I will challenge you with this... .

Is the question "accountability vs support" or is it "support and zero tolerance for DV". Now is a time for you to leverage the situation with a compassionate but firm stance. The question is, what do you need to do different to be compassionate but firm?

Your partner did it in that business meeting, so you have seen it work. Do you rise up to do that on a consistent basis?

Here is what you read:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316175
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316173
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316170

Here are additional links:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317050
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317052
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317053

[Lost In Thought]

Skip,

Thanks for the additional posts.   For some reason, I couldn't get search to bring up anything that followed the threads.

... .what do you need to do different to be compassionate but firm?

Your partner did it in that business meeting, so you have seen it work. Do you rise up to do that on a consistent basis?

Yes, that is the million dollar question.   Right now, I don't know how to be compassionate but firm.   Anything on my part which was more than soft tofu, lead to heated arguments and (usually) me being worse off.   I am not saying my approaches were perfect either, but even when I tried to walk delicately, she would perceive it as a threat.  She is extremely smart and reads into things with uncanny perception.   Won't be easy... .but I know I have to try.

And, no, it did not work for my business partner.   She got pissed off and left.  Since he doesn't live with him, there is not much she could do.   I, however, felt that rage when I got home.

I have a lot of learning to do, no doubt.   My question is, can I handle it.  I am so emotionally exhausted right now that I don't have the energy nor desire to continue.   I guess with this probation period, it might give me the time to re-energize and decide if I am able endure more.

[Lost In Thought]

Radcliff,

I gotta tell you man, I am reading through your 6 threads and I feel as if I am looking at a mirror!    My wife never threw the divorce card at me (though she did ask if that is what I wanted), nor did she get as physical as yours, but the similarities in everything else is just astounding!  Even down to the criticism clock, and that I too am an engineer.   Are you sure there isn't some alternate dimensional plane going on here?  LOL.

I never had to plan out calling the police, nor did I have to protect myself from being accused of DV; since my daughter was the one who called 911.   So I feel I got off easy compared to what you went through in that respect, but listening to your rationalizations for holding off while your daughter prepared for school and not wanting to interrupt that, is EXACTLY what I had been going through.   There was always some other "event" that prevented me from doing anything and holding off for a while longer.   

You, however, seem to have more nads than me; as I still can't face her yet.   I skipped all the drama and went straight to the PO and now I am hiding behind it.    I fear greatly over what happens next and how to approach things with her (which is precisely why I posted this thread).   

I haven't yet figured out how to do this, but reading your posts where you state that you applied "tremendous pressure to her, leaving a pathway to success if she chooses to take it" is awesome and what I will strive for in my strategies.

One of the things you debated on and then finally did was to involve her brother.   When I spoke to my counselor about telling her family (specifically her sister) about her being arrested, she immediately said "No.  For BPs that is not a good thing.  She would further feel betrayed."    But between you and peralsw, harley quin, flourdust and skip (to name a few) figured out to involve her first, then go speak to her brother.   I think that is a great idea and I will try that out as well.   Besides, over the next 18 months, she will need some kind of support and no one will be there for her.   The people in the same state as her all are on the protection order.

All in all I have learned that I need to get a counselor who understands BPDs and how to help me deal with her should we get to that point.   I also need to get a lawyer to understand what are all the legal implications one way or another.  I am flying blind right now (except for your postings!) and it is clear that I need to get a better understanding of what the broader picture is.   

For now, I am going to listen to the peace and quiet and get my balance back.   After that I can start looking at what the next steps are.   The big deal (as everyone has pointed out here) is to see how she reacts to the court date in a few weeks when they issue the probation order.

Thanks everyone, and Radcliff... .you are my hero.   Kudos to you and best of luck in all your endeavors.

[Radcliff]

The peace is very important to you now.  18 months is a long time.  I felt euphoria at being safe for a couple of months, then the emotions became very complex.  I had anger over the betrayal, and much sadness and loneliness.  I slipped in and out of depression.  You need a diverse support network -- at least five sources.  Count us as one.  Your counselor is another.  Find a friend or two and do things for fun.  Take care of yourself.  It is not easy.

My wife and I were never able to come to a common view on what happened.  She accused me of being abusive, and has not demonstrated an understanding of her actions or their effect on me.  We are in the process of a divorce.  Every situation is unique, though, so take it one day at a time with yours.

There are more threads.  Here are some more.  I am far behind on an update, even with these, but these are a start:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316172.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317298
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318901.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320499.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320702
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321085
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322154
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322742.0;all

RC