The relationship is toxic and I can't let go - part 3

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mod note:  Part 1 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339129.0;all
Mod note:  Part 2 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339234.0;all

.  It is difficult to process the thought of someone never engaging with us again, it really is. Regardless of the BPD, this person sounds deeply unhealthy and the longer you stay interacting with her, the more damage that will be done to you, and the longer it will take to heal and recover.

What if she didn't have BPD or bipolar, would it be easier to grieve the end of the relationship? Can you train your mind to ignore the possibilities of her coming back, and switch focus to your own feelings and moving on process?

This really is the crux of the matter. I think the lack of empathy and apparent heartlessness of the situation is what has me in such despair. I think I’ve focused so much on her behaviour as I’m trying to find some logic in her behaviour, some rationale rather than the ‘I’ve moved on accept it’ narrative. I have always felt that women can be brutal when ending relationships and this situation has underlined exactly those feelings. I’m sure men are the same, if not worse, but my experience is of women and so that’s all I have to go on. I’m sure I’ve done my fair share of heart breaking also without realising it but this situation just feels particularly ruthless, given we were on holiday (at my expense) just a few weeks ago. I find her one cold hearted harpy to be honest. Anyway, better to feel anger than despair.

I don’t think it matters whether she has BPD or not really. The pain of loss is just the same. More pronounced in this situation as it has been all consuming and then suddenly nothing. It’s truly painful.

[RomanticFool]

Mod note:  Part 1 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339129.0;all
Mod note:  Part 2 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339234.0;all

.  It is difficult to process the thought of someone never engaging with us again, it really is. Regardless of the BPD, this person sounds deeply unhealthy and the longer you stay interacting with her, the more damage that will be done to you, and the longer it will take to heal and recover.

What if she didn't have BPD or bipolar, would it be easier to grieve the end of the relationship? Can you train your mind to ignore the possibilities of her coming back, and switch focus to your own feelings and moving on process?

This really is the crux of the matter. I think the lack of empathy and apparent heartlessness of the situation is what has me in such despair. I think I’ve focused so much on her behaviour as I’m trying to find some logic in her behaviour, some rationale rather than the ‘I’ve moved on accept it’ narrative. I have always felt that women can be brutal when ending relationships and this situation has underlined exactly those feelings. I’m sure men are the same, if not worse, but my experience is of women and so that’s all I have to go on. I’m sure I’ve done my fair share of heart breaking also without realising it but this situation just feels particularly ruthless, given we were on holiday (at my expense) just a few weeks ago. I find her one cold hearted harpy to be honest. Anyway, better to feel anger than despair.

I don’t think it matters whether she has BPD or not really. The pain of loss is just the same. More pronounced in this situation as it has been all consuming and then suddenly nothing. It’s truly painful.

[Skip]

Did you read anything Skip wrote?

Read it all.

RF, I think ct21218 is asking if you comprehended it and see any relevance to your current state of emotional chaos and see a prescription to get your life on a health pattern?

Only those who have experienced the emotional hell can understand. Those who find it easier to walk away can never comprehend the depths of despair more susceptible people plunge to.

Who are you saying this to? We have had member's here that have killed themselves because of the depths of their despair.  Heck, my ex-uBPDish ex-husband pushed a .357 Magnum through the middle of his brain with the bullet continuing on and lodging by the bed of his 12 year old son.

People here get it. That's one of the main reasons people come to this site. The advice they get is relevant.

You have discounted most everything that has been said to you in the last 2.5 years regarding 3 relationships in your life... and the things people warned you about have all come true.

Do you see that? Even the most basic suggestion of go to an emergency room and get a meds evaluation is dismissed out of hand. For a year you have been saying that you are looking for a "cheap therapists" and instead turned to an ex-lover with a BPD diagnosis as your "therapist".

I think the lack of empathy and apparent heartlessness of the situation is what has me in such despair. I think I’ve focused so much on her behaviour as I’m trying to find some logic in her behaviour, some rationale rather...

Yes, you are totally focused and her behavior and how it doesn't serve you. But be honest,  is she any less empathetic, heartlessness, and logical than you? I say this not to offend - I say this as you have to understand your own actions if you are to understand anyone else.

For example, think of what your wife is going through trying to sort out what happened in her marriage based on what she knows about your relationship with her. You lied and betrayed her for years, and then dropped her like trash over a relationship you started while she was on vacation with friends. Can you imagine how much she has cried over this. Did you show her empathy? We you heartless? Would any of it appear logical (she doesn't know that you had other lovers for most of the relationship). Do you think her pain and suffering is less than yours?

I told my ex that I am now getting divorced [Tuesday]. Tonight (Sunday) she replied: "So sorry to hear that." I replied: "It's all very amicable." she replied: 'Fab".

Do you not understand (empathy) what these words mean?

I am wondering if there is any chance at all now that I am single whether my ex and I could start over on a more amicable footing.

I've asked this before, other than sex, what is this relationship all about? As a reader, I feel understand the needs that you feel she can satisfy, but I don't feel the love and respect for this women. And from your description of her, I feel resentment and devaluation from her - not love and respect for you. The two of you seem to have no ability to resolve conflict in an adult way... you are constantly blocking, unblocking, breaking up, attacking each other's mental health and character... What makes this the love of your life?

[RomanticFool]

RF, I think ct21218 is asking if you comprehended it and see any relevance to your current state of emotional chaos and see a prescription to get your life on a health pattern?

Yes, of course I understand it and see the relevance. I agree with most of it.

Who are you saying this to? We have had member's here that have killed themselves because of the depths of their despair.  Heck, my ex-uBPDish ex-husband pushed a .357 Magnum through the middle of his brain with the bullet continuing on and lodging by the bed of his 12 year old son.

People here get it. That's one of the main reasons people come to this site. The advice they get is relevant.

I am thinking that anybody who has experienced this kind of hell would understand what I'm going through. That's all I mean.

You have discounted most everything that has been said to you in the last 2.5 years regarding 3 relationships in your life... and the things people warned you about have all come true.

You may feel I've discounted it but I assure you I have not. I have taken on board so many things that have been said to me here, including don't go to the cinema as friends with my ex which I didn't. It just hurts. Nor did I discount any of the advice I got over my previous ex. I actually ended that relationship when my heart and body wanted me to stay in it.

Do you see that? Even the most basic suggestion of go to an emergency room and get a meds evaluation is dismissed out of hand. For a year you have been saying that you are looking for a "cheap therapists" and instead turned to an ex-lover with a BPD diagnosis as your "therapist".

I explained that I couldn't go to the emergency room and get sedated because of the work I'm currently engaged in. I need to be sharp. Once the work is over in two weeks, if I am still feeling the same I will get my doctor to put me on anti-depressants. My ex has not been diagnosed with BPD and she insists that she doesn't have it after a year of counselling and examination by therapists. She has been extremely helpful and talked me down from the ledge (figure of speech) many times. I have taken your advice on board about not looking for a cheap therapist. I discount nothing. I do not ignore any of your advice I assure you.

Yes, you are totally focused and her behavior and how it doesn't serve you. But be honest,  is she any less empathetic, heartlessness, and logical than you? I say this not to offend - I say this as you have to understand your own actions if you are to understand anyone else.

Yes, she is much less empathetic than me. In this situation she has no empathy at all. Apart from physically attacking me and then denying it and blaming me for it, the other lowlights of our relationship have been threatening to go to the police and expose me on social media for 'abuse,' which amounts to arguing back with her and stopping her from assaulting me. Two weeks after an all expenses paid holiday by me she cycled past me on her bike without stopping and then ended the relationship when I complained. I could go on but what's the point?

For example, think of what your wife is going through trying to sort out what happened in her marriage based on what she knows about your relationship with her. You lied and betrayed her for years, and then dropped her like trash over a relationship you started while she was on vacation with friends. Can you imagine how much she has cried over this. Did you show her empathy? We you heartless? Would any of it appear logical (she doesn't know that you had other lovers for most of the relationship). Do you think her pain and suffering is less than yours?

I have thought of nothing else other than what my wife is going through. She is staying here at the moment because she can no longer stay at her previous place. She told me tonight that she is angry at me and said that I was a coward with regard to not telling her. She did also say that she recognised that I am trying to be understanding towards her now. She also understands why it happened but of course she feels awful about everything. I hugged her and apologised again for the trauma I have put her through. I don't get a pass on my behaviour. I am not a good man for what I've done and from here on in her well being is a priority. I'm trying to be empathetic towards her now. Bit late maybe but at least I am making an amends where I can. She has made it clear that the marriage is over and we are breaking up. Her suffering is no less than mine. I didn't 'drop her like trash.' I didn't follow through on the relationship with the ex in the way that perhaps would have been more honest but I saw my wife cry and couldn't do it. That makes me more cowardly than my ex probably (who walked out on her marriage after two years without her daughter) but I do think it makes me a tad more empathetic. I have plenty of examples to show how little empathy the ex has. If the shoe was on the other foot and somebody who said they were leaving their marriage who I was involved with and then finally did, I know I would at least enquire as to their well being. Before anybody reinforces the idea that the marriage split is on me, I understand that and that isn't the point I'm making. I'm talking about empathy and I have more of it than my ex.

 

Do you not understand (empathy) what these words mean?

Empathy isn't just words. After a year of a relationship she ended it by text. She has shown a complete lack of empathy towards me specifically over the last three months. When she ended the relationship the first time I told her that I had been feeling suicidal and called the suicide prevention charity. She mocked me and said she didn't believe me. Does that strike you as empathetic? When we reconnected after three weeks she asked me to buy tickets for a film. I did so and she refused to come out of her house. I then rebooked tickets for the following Thursday for the film (at her request) and she reluctantly came out with me and then shouted at me when I told her I had been sad at not seeing her. She asked me to book a holiday which I did and paid for and then said the next day she didn't want to go. Two weeks of stress ensued and I didn't know whether or not she would come until the day of departure. So you can defend her on alot of issues but I'm sorry, empathy is not one of them. She has shown me none whatsoever.

I've asked this before, other than sex, what is this relationship all about? As a reader, I feel understand the needs that you feel she can satisfy, but I don't feel the love and respect for this women. And from your description of her, I feel resentment and devaluation from her - not love and respect for you. The two of you seem to have no ability to resolve conflict in an adult way... you are constantly blocking, unblocking, breaking up, attacking each other's mental health and character... What makes this the love of your life?

I keep asking myself the same question over and over. She touched something in me that I don't fully understand myself. Hope of a better life, a world that I wanted to inhabit with her in it. On the good days she was wonderful company, funny, intellectually stimulating, vulnerable, combative, fiesty and generally full of life. I adored her.

[Skip]

RF, here is some information on antidepresants ( https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/pdf/103/6/93.pdf ). 1) It often takes 2-4 weeks for the drug to kick in.  2) there are energy activating antidepressants - they are not sedative at all - just the opposite.  There are also anti-anxiety drugs, which if taken in small doses, can be used to take the edge off without drugging you. We have had members quarter these and just take them when the anxiety is controlling them - they act within 10 - 15 mins so you can adjust the dose to not tamp you down below a active state.

RF, lets look at a few definitions:

Treating with love and respect - this is a pretty good list: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/stronger-the-broken-places/201701/25-ways-you-can-show-respect-your-partner Treating with empathy - the ability to understand someone else’s feelings or rationale and being able to validate and make them feel understood Treating with compassion - showing sympathy and sadness for someones suffering or bad luck and a desire to help

Your wife. I think you have consistently shown almost no love and respect, no empathy, and  a modicum of compassion. For 8 years, you didn't put her significant needs above your convenience needs. When you announced your most recent affair, she is the one that left the house, not you. Currently you have huge secrets that would help her get closure and you are holding them back. You got a lot of advice about getting into some joint counseling sessions so that your could clue her in on what is going on in a constructive way with a counselor. Instead, you put the needs of a girl you knew for two weeks and blurted out that you had someone else and let the chips fall where they may. The level of abuse on your wife rivals the worst abuse we have seen by people with BPD on this board.

Six year affair partner. In the last year with with her, you showed her very little love and respect. The focus was on your needs and you were making demands that she feared would destroy her family - you did the push / pull to try to get her to spend more time with you. At one point she was admitted to the hospital for suicidal idealiation. Not high scores on the love and respect scale. You were not empathetic, you didn't comprehend what she was going through at all - as she was melting down, you were accusing her of cheating on you. She said you were abusive. People here said it was abusive. In the very end, you showed her some compassion with the help of members here. That was good. She became a non-issue the day you met affair partner #2.

Current affair partner (#2). The focus was on your needs and you minimizing being married. You made promises that you didn't keep. You blamed it on her. You  look at her as a deeply flawed human. This is not love and respect. Empathy? No, you really don't understand her. Compassion - no. You guys are just locked in a love hate relationship in which is hurting you both.

The point is not to beat you up. The point is that you easily call these women abusers but fail to take to heart emotional abuse you are inflicting. You say you have been "deplorable", but that is words only. You are not taking actions to end the abuse. You could clean all this up in a month.

I AM NOT SAYING THE 3 WOMEN ARE GOOD AND YOU ARE BAD. You have gotten some rough treatment for sure. I am saying that in addition to what you have to say about others, you are not taking seriously how emotionally selfish, manipulative, and abusive you have been.

You want a women for sex.  That's number 1. Having your sexual partner be an adoring companion, makes the sex take you higher. This what drives you. Their needs, feeling , complexities - the multi-dimensional aspects of a monogamous partnership is not of interest to you.

Your wife was a good person by all accounts except sexual intimacy issue. Rather than try to tap into her emotions and try to work it out and exit if you couldn't work it out - you did the push/pull thing - that didn't work and then you jumped into a fantasy affair. You liked that. It wasn't real or sustainable... but it was the thing you loved. When that failed, you looked for a replacement and eventually found it... another fantasy.

You're chasing a rainbow, RF. You are leaving a lot of damage in your wake. And you can't give it up - no matter what the cost.

She touched something in me that I don't fully understand myself. Hope of a better life, a world that I wanted to inhabit with her in it. On the good days she was wonderful company, funny, intellectually stimulating, vulnerable, combative, fiesty and generally full of life. I adored her.

For a short time, she replaced the fantasy of your failed affair. It was even better because she lived nearby. It's not love - it fulfilling an unrealistic fantasy. A rainbow.

With affair partner 1, you both shared the fantasy - and afterward you both went home to a real life. She only wanted the fantasy - it was enough. You eventually wanted to amp the fantasy up and it blew up the relationship.

With affair partner 2, you both shared the fantasy - you briefly had the amped up fantasy that you wanted from affair partner #1.  But in this case, she wasn't married and had high expectation to go beyond the sexual honeymoon (the roles reversed from you prior affair). You weren't ready to amp it as quickly as her  and it blew up the relationship.

You are addicted to the sexual fantasy. Not a person. If someone else jumps in, you will shift your world to them.

I'm not telling you anything new. If you could just get off the hamster wheel and look at this 15 year debacle for what it is, you could end the abusive stuff in a month and spend 12-18 months building a life you can feel good about.

[RomanticFool]

Your wife. I think you have consistently shown almost no love and respect, no empathy, and  a modicum of compassion. For 8 years, you didn't put her significant needs above your convenience needs. When you announced your most recent affair, she is the one that left the house, not you. Currently you have huge secrets that would help her get closure and you are holding them back. You got a lot of advice about getting into some joint counseling sessions so that your could clue her in on what is going on in a constructive way with a counselor. Instead, you put the needs of a girl you knew for two weeks and blurted out that you had someone else and let the chips fall where they may. The level of abuse on your wife rivals the worst abuse we have seen by people with BPD on this board.

I don't think you can state that I have shown no love for my wife. I married her because I loved her and wanted to make a go of the marriage despite reservations which I voiced prior to our marriage; notably that we hadn't had sex for two years and she pressed on with the wedding plans regardless. I have no secrets from this current affair. I have told her everything and she is moving on with her life. She has closure. If you really think this is abuse that is on a par with putting somebody in hospital then I take exception to what you are saying. You are using hyperbole once more. It was my wife who declined the idea of going to marriage guidance in favour of pursuing her mountain climbing hobby. She did not want to go to Relate. I asked her to do so with me right after I told her I had a crush on somebody and before I slept with her. I accept that I have treated her very badly aside from the mitigation above. Just one final thought: yes my wife is upset but she is not beside herself with grief because in our conversations she said that she recognises that our marriage has been dysfunctional and that a person cannot simply ignore their sexuality. She has known for many years that our relationship was lacking intimacy. I don't say that as an excuse for my behaviour, just that she understands. I asked my wife tonight if she thought I lacked empathy and she said she thought i hadn't been empathetic in this situation but in general she found me empathetic and compassionate. She did say I'm a coward, which is fair enough.

Six year affair partner. In the last year with with her, you showed her very little love and respect. The focus was on your needs and you were making demands that she feared would destroy her family - you did the push / pull to try to get her to spend more time with you. At one point she was admitted to the hospital for suicidal idealiation. Not high scores on the love and respect scale. You were not empathetic, you didn't comprehend what she was going through at all - as she was melting down, you were accusing her of cheating on you. She said you were abusive. People here said it was abusive. In the very end, you showed her some compassion with the help of members here. That was good. She became a non-issue the day you met affair partner #2.

You are so wide of the mark on this one. She has never been a non issue. I love and care for her deeply. The push/pull was on both sides and while I accept my 50% of responsibility she introduced me to the notion of silent treatment. I had never experienced this from a woman before this affair. She sent me to a place of pain that I had never experienced before and one that almost sent me over the edge. Her meltdown was not to do with our relationship but the fact that she started drinking again after 10 years. Despite this I stuck by her and she treated me like an enemy. I had to move away from her with the help of people on these boards and I felt absolutely terrible when she told me that she had attempted suicide. To this day I have no idea what the extent of this was. She seems much better now and I don't want to open that can of worms. What is left is a friendship which is possible because we have both learnt to have a love and respect for each other which neither one of us showed very well at the time. She has since apologised to me for her silent treatment of me and I apologised to her for my dogged pursuit of her at a time when she was frightened by my passionate nature. We have made our peace with each other and while I appreciate you are identifying a pattern of behaviour in me, it is not correct that there was little love and respect. There was alot of frustration and fear. I love this woman and we are good friends now.

Current affair partner (#2). The focus was on your needs and you minimizing being married. You made promises that you didn't keep. You blamed it on her. You  look at her as a deeply flawed human. This is not love and respect. Empathy? No, you really don't understand her. Compassion - no. You guys are just locked in a love hate relationship in which is hurting you both.

The point is not to beat you up. The point is that you easily call these women abusers but fail to take to heart emotional abuse you are inflicting. You say you have been "deplorable", but that is words only. You are not taking actions to end the abuse. You could clean all this up in a month.

You are kidding, right? The focus in this relationship was never on my needs. Everything centred around her needs. I made promises that I did keep. I told her that my marriage would end and it has. I told her that I couldn't leave immediately due to a variety of issues, not least of which was financial.  I never minimized being married, I told her that my wife and I lived as friends which we did. I never gave her a timeframe I said that we would end up together and if she had hung around long enough we would have done. We are not locked in any kind of relationship because has unceremoniously dumped me. From the start the relationship was always focused on what she wanted. She gave me a blueprint on a daily basis of what kind of a relationship she wanted. I listened intently and delivered it for the first few months. Things started going wrong because she was jealous every time I spoke to anybody female outside of her house (including her pregnant friend) despite my constant reassurance and love for her. I loved and respected her right up until she punched me in the face. That's when things changed. Prior to that we were in constant dialogue about the relationship and how we were going to have a life together. Unfortunately (and this is where me being married did make a huge difference) she never trusted me. She claimed I was always texting on my phone which was absolutely not the case. In fact she used her phone far more than I did. She also called me a narcissist on a daily basis and despite me asking her not to she persisted. Then she started getting in my face every time I asked her to moderate her tone and my only option was to leave her flat as she often raised her voice. Me leaving triggered her abandonment issues and the violence followed that. Even after that I came back because I loved her. This relationship was never just about sex for me. Sure I enjoyed sleeping with her but she was just as keen and often the instigator of it from day one. She would touch me as soon as I entered her flat in the first few months. She also told me she loved me from early on and kept questioning me to make sure I was as into her as she was into me and would often say 'you're waning' to which I would reply "never.' She kept this up right up until she started to devalue me. There was no consistency in her.

She was constantly emotionally volatile and difficult to deal with and I didn't have the tools to deal with her and reacted emotionally. I don't think you can declare me as lacking empathy when I was at her beck and call for a huge part of this relationship; running her to work every morning, taking her out to cafes and restaurants, bookshops, cooking her dinner, building her wardrobe, trips to gigs and the theatre, constant attention on her and her needs. She never addressed my needs nor was she interested in them. The mistake I made in this relationship was actually not being more selfish. I gave my life and my power over to her and she abused it. Sure I stood up to her and baulked when she accused me of using her for sex (hot on the heels of telling me that she wanted sex every day). She also told me that she loved the fact I was a strong "alpha" male (which I'm not) and that I didn't 'let her get away with things that others did in the past.' She liked my strength, she respected me. Then it all changed and she decided that my attributes were now my negatives. I couldn't win with her. Ever. I believe she is a Narcissist and all of her protestations were projections of her own psychotic behaviour on to me. It's not normal to take your partner to the edge of despair. She has taken me there time and again.

You want a women for sex.  That's number 1. Having your sexual partner be an adoring companion, makes the sex take you higher. This what drives you. Their needs, feeling , complexities - the multi-dimensional aspects of a monogamous partnership is not of interest to you.

Sex isn't what drives me - love is. Sure sex is a part of that equation but I'd sacrifice it every time for a deep and intense love. That's what drives me - intensity of emotion. I'm 56 years old, sex is becoming less and less important to me. Love will always be my Nirvana. That is what I crave, not sex.

For a short time, she replaced the fantasy of your failed affair. It was even better because she lived nearby. It's not love - it fulfilling an unrealistic fantasy. A rainbow.

I wanted a real relationship with her not a sexual fantasy. I am so hurt precisely because i thought it was real. Unfortunately her aggression and violence towards me kept me away from her at times I really wanted to be with her. I've lost count of the number of times she didn't answer the door to me or cut me off WhatsApp or stood me for planned evenings. This is not all to do with my behaviour, this is to do with her desire for power and control over me. Your summing up is far too simplistic and lacks knowledge of the details of the relationship and also who I really am as a person.

our wife was a good person by all accounts except sexual intimacy issue. Rather than try to tap into her emotions and try to work it out and exit if you couldn't work it out - you did the push/pull thing - that didn't work and then you jumped into a fantasy affair. You liked that. It wasn't real or sustainable... but it was the thing you loved. When that failed, you looked for a replacement and eventually found it... another fantasy.

I did try to work it out. My wife didn't want to go to counselling. The first affair was a hangover from the past and the second one was a reaction to years of no intimacy. Actually the first affair was also a reaction to no intimacy with my wife. Morally reprehensible, yes but my sexuality and need for love had to go somewhere.

With affair partner 2, you both shared the fantasy - you briefly had the amped up fantasy that you wanted from affair partner #1.  But in this case, she wasn't married and had high expectation to go beyond the sexual honeymoon (the roles reversed from you prior affair). You weren't ready to amp it as quickly as her  and it blew up the relationship.

There is some truth that she had high expectations of me but I was more than prepared to go beyond the sexual honeymoon. What I wasn't prepared for was accusations of using her for sex when she had instigated most of it. I think her shame kicked in after her daughter came to stay with her. That played a huge part in her psyche. She lives to please the daughter whom she walked out on when the girl was 15 months old. Her daughter liked me at the beginning but due to her mother's toxic behaviour she had to physically pull her off me one night when she was hitting me. that's what did for the relationship. Of course she had to blame me for that because she is not a woman who ever admits responsibility. I own my 50% but I'm going to own her abuse. That's on her. I can only imagine her next relationship will be exactly the same until she does some work on herself.

You're chasing a rainbow, RF. You are leaving a lot of damage in your wake. And you can't give it up - no matter what the cost.

I'm chasing love not a rainbow. I've learnt that the high intensity overly sexualised version of love is not healthy. I now understand that a woman who shares that emotional high is also unlikely to be healthy and from now on I will avoid going into an addictive love and sex cycle in favour of getting to know a woman properly prior to intimacy.

[iluminati]

In the words of Andre 3000, stop, don't do it, reconsider!  She is clearly trying to win you back for another round.  She is also someone who sucks as respecting boundaries.  That's not someone to be friends with. 

[Skip]

RF,

You can certainly go forward with the assumption that over the last 15 years there is no pathology here to work through and that basically you did the best you could with some troubled women and it was a bit messy, but understandable, reasonable. So, after all that has been discussed, this is your narrative:

The 3 year affair with a married women was largely because she lied in the first encounter and did not tell you she was married. By the time she did, you were hooked and couldn't get out.

Your 10 marriage occurred with a women who was frigid for 2 years prior to the marriage. She got caught up in the marriage planning and the sexual issues never got resolved. You loved her, but you became emotionally unavailable after year 2-3 of marriage - what choice did you have?

Your six year affair probably wasn't a great idea, but what else could you do? That ended badly largely because the women had BPD and abused you with silent treatment. You loved her. You were demanding , but not off the charts.

The second affair was an "honest affair" - this one you told your wife about. You would have divorced her but your affair partner was not supportive. In time she became emotionally, physically, and verbally abusive. You weren't always at your best, but your worst actions were in self defense. The good news that you are now practically single. You love her and it's a deep love, she is just illogical and troubled. You would love to reconnect and it could be beautiful if she cleans up her act.

So the issue, as you see it, is can she get her head straightened out and let the relationship blossom. If she does, the issues she has about you fighting with her will be moot. You are as good as single, so the "married" deal is basically fixed. Giving her space might be the right thing to do bit the bug concern is that she will jump into a relationship with someone else rather than use the space to rethink her approach to the relationship.

The last two interactions are that she wanted to go to the movie as friends and you "set a boundary that you are lovers or not going.

You later texted her a "probe" that you are getting divorced and she responded "fab".

What should you do now?

So, it's a standoff, then. A battle of wills. This is five weeks in, and she is holding out or moving on. Not clear.

What do you think?  Hold 'em, its her move?  Take the risk, and reach out to her again - before its too late?

[RomanticFool]

You can certainly go forward with the assumption that over the last 15 years there is no pathology here to work through and that basically you did the best you could with some troubled women and it was a bit messy, but understandable, reasonable.

That is closer to the truth as I see it. I don't say there are no issues for me to work through but I am certainly not lacking empathy generally in the way that you described above. I can put myself in other people's shoes and I am capable of putting the needs of others before myself. I accept that I haven't displayed this very well in relationships at times. I think the big issue for me is becoming emotionally co-dependent on certain women. This could be due to childhood trauma. I accept that I have treated my wife poorly.

The 3 year affair with a married woman was largely because she lied in your first encounters and did tell you she was married. By the time she did, you were hooked.

Yes and I should have walked away. That is another issue I have, I don't walk away when I should and the relationship becomes toxic.

Your 10 marriage occurred with a woman who was frigid for 2 years prior to the marriage and she got caught up in the marriage planning and it never got resolved. You loved her, but you emotionally withdrew after year 2-3.

8 years of marriage. 13 years in the relationship. Yes, that is actually the truth. I would describe her as sexually anorexic. However, I should have tried harder to resolve the issue and/or vetoed the wedding.

Your six year affair probably wasn't a great idea, but what else could you do? That ended badly largely because the woman had BPD and abused you with silent treatment. You loved her.You were demanding , but not off the charts.

This was the same woman I had the 3 year affair with when I was single. Again, I think this is closer to the truth than me being completely lacking in empathy and driving her to suicide. As I said above, she started drinking after 10 years of sobriety following her brother's death. This is what sent her off the rails and turned the relationship into a toxic mess. Prior to that we were getting on fine and saw each other occasionally and communicated by text. Obviously this does not give me a free pass regarding my wife and is a terrible betrayal. At the time I thought nobody was getting hurt. I can see now it's not quite that simple.

The second affair was an  honest affair - this one you told your wife about. You would have divorced her but your affair partner was not supportive. In time she became emotionally, physically, and verbally abusive. You weren't always at your best, but your worst actions were in self defense.

Again, closer to the truth. I did tell my wife and I did intend on having a relationship with the affair partner not just a fling behind my wife's back. I don't think this is good behaviour on my part and it is terrible as far as my wife is concerned but I was closer to being honest than before.

The good news that you are now practically single. You love her and it's a deep love, she is just illogical and troubled. You would love to reconnect and it could be beautiful if she cleans up her act.

So the issue, as you see it, is can she get her head straightened out and let the relationship blossom. If she does, the issues she has about you fighting with her will be moot. You are as good as single, so the "married" deal is basically fixed. Giving her space might be the right thing to do bit the big concern is that she will jump into a relationship with someone else rather than use the space to rethink her approach to the relationship.

The relationship is over and she has moved on. I am devastated because I did love her but her actions have shown no empathy or love towards me. She nagged me for eight months to get our of my marriage so we could be together. I feel let down and hurt.  I think she has jumped into a relationship with someone else. She was never going to rethink her approach to anything, she doesn't have to, she has men queuing up to go out with her. It was easier to blame me than look at herself.

The last two interactions are that she wanted to go to the movie as friends and you "set a boundary that you are lovers or not going.

I took the advice of people on these boards. I actually wish I had gone now because she has now gone NC with me.

You later texted her a "probe" that you are getting divorced and she responded "fab".

She made one apparently empathetic comment "So sorry to hear this" and then came the fab comment which I found frivolous and lacking in any kind of real empathy and totally ignoring the fact that she was keen for much of this relationship for me to be free. She walked away after an all expenses paid holiday and I feel used and abused and let down.

What should you do now?

So, it's a standoff, then. A battle of wills. This is five weeks in, and she is holding out or moving on. Not clear.

What do you think?  Hold 'em, its her move?  Take the risk, and reach out to her again - before its too late?

It's too late, there is no relationship. She dumped me for two weeks not long after we came back from holiday for expressing my emotional upset at her cycling past me and ignoring me. After reconnecting with me two weeks later she tried to behave as if nothing had happened and demanded to be invited to my show. Since it was the second time she had dumped me in this way I set a boundary and said that she couldn't keep dumping me and reconnecting as if nothing had happened. She then called me an abuser on a par with Epstein and said she was going to tell everybody in AA that I am a predator. That tells you everything you need to know about who she really is. I've already reached out to her, she is gone. Now it's time to move on and heal and try to meet somebody healthy once I have sorted my own issues out.


  

[RomanticFool]

In the words of Andre 3000, stop, don't do it, reconsider!  She is clearly trying to win you back for another round.  She is also someone who sucks as respecting boundaries.  That's not someone to be friends with.

I think we are way past that. She is gone. The cinema trip was an attempt to be friends, not for another round. I think she did this because I told her she didn't have to pay me the £500 for the holiday and I told her that I had used the script that she edited and she was a talented writer. I didn't go because when I set a boundary she had accused me of abuse and since I knew I would want to at least hold her hand I sensed trouble ahead. She has now broken off all contact with me. It's over.

[Skip]

RF, if your wife is getting a divorce and your "affairs" (2) are over, you have a chance to reset your compass.

Don't miss this opportunity.

I am certainly not lacking empathy ..//.. I can put myself in other people's shoes and I am capable of putting the needs of others before myself. I accept that I haven't displayed this very well in relationships at times. I think the big issue for me is becoming emotionally co-dependent on certain women. This could be due to childhood trauma.

Maybe, after reading 800 of your posts over 2+ years and 3 relationships I have it all wrong. But what if I'm right?  What if its true that you are chasing a sexual fantasy rainbow and making a lot of unhealthy decisions in its pursuit? What if it's true that you selfishness in relationships is breaking them down? What if its true that there is a lack of empathy and that you often misjudge what your partner is struggling with and you do things that are counter productive to the relationship?

At 50-something, do you want to miss this opportunity to remake your life?

She nagged me for eight months to get our of my marriage so we could be together. I feel let down and hurt.  I think she has jumped into a relationship with someone else. She was never going to rethink her approach to anything, she doesn't have to, she has men queuing up to go out with her. It was easier to blame me than look at herself.

Read what you wrote carefully.

The marriage. You feel let down. Yet, you didn't see that she was building resentment, step by step, day by day, over this. You were mostly caught up in how it affected you. You couldn't see past your own feelings and understand the severity of it all and be responsive.

I think there is a pattern of his in all your relationships.

Accusations of cheating on you When your partners are overwhelmed or fed up with you and back off, you typically think (and accuse them) of cheating when it is highly unlikely.This has super inflamed situations that were already strained..

Bad macro choices You get into relationships even when lots of red-flags   are visible thinking "what could it hurt". Remember when you started this last relationship? Your wife went on vacation and you went on a date because "you also deserved to have fun".

I'll just say this... there are a lot of really attractive women out there who are available because they have relationship issues (same is true for men). In a way, its like that back street used car lot that is stocked with all the shinny, sexy Mercedes and BMWs that sold cheap at auction because they had serious mechanical issues.

Patterns, RF. Patterns of things that have not served you well.

[ct21218]

There seems to be a real lack of insight on your part and I have to agree with Skip.  There's something called outrageous overshadow.  It's when someone's behavior is so bad, it allows us to give ourselves a pass on our own behavior.   You mentioned that the latest gf just got a year of sobriety.   It is a huge no no for someone with time to date a newcomer.  Yet you say that if she had just behaved correctly you could have had a relationship.   The commonality in all of these situations is you.  If you were healthy you would not have cheated, you would not have gotten involved with a married woman, and you would not have dated a newcomer. Take some time and work on your own issues, you certainly have had a part in all these situations.  Until you do that, you will find yourself in yet another relationship where you see yourself the victim of another's behavior.

[RomanticFool]

RF, if your wife is getting a divorce and your "affairs" (2) are over, you have a chance to reset your compass.

Don't miss this opportunity.

Agreed.

Maybe, after reading 800 of your posts over 2+ years and 3 relationships I have it all wrong. But what if I'm right?  What if its true that you are chasing a sexual fantasy rainbow and making a lot of unhealthy decisions in its pursuit? What if it's true that your selfishness in relationships is breaking them down? What if its true that there is a lack of empathy and that you often misjudge what your partner is struggling with and you do things that are counter productive to the relationship?

At 50-something, do you want to miss this opportunity to remake your life?

No I don't want to miss this opportunity. However, I do need to put my side across to you in the interests of a full picture of these relationships. Not to blame the other or to minimise my part, but to get to the truth of it.

I have no doubt there is a strong sexual element in these relationships with the two affair women. I'm not denying that. I think there is also an addictive element and a co-dependent element coming from me. I don't think I am simply chasing a sexual rainbow, what I'm chasing is my version of love. I think it has been mixed up with sex in both of these relationships but in the second one it was reciprocated and instigated by my partner. I also have no doubt that I have misjudged what she was struggling with because it changed from day to day. One day she would accuse me of using her for sex and the next day she would jump into bed with me. I also have no doubt that I was preoccupied with getting out of my marriage and trying to avoid being discovered whenever we were out. It was not a good ground to build a foundation and I saw it at the time. I was forever apologising to her about it and I was forever assuring her that we would end up together. I won't go into all of the other elements that turned it toxic which came from her because I know you are focused entirely on the impossibility of the relationship working due to my marriage. I don't even disagree with you. However, what I would also like to suggest here is that even if I was free and behaved like a perfect empathic gentleman, her pathology and my inability to deal with it would have surfaced at some point. There was a fatal schism in the relationship; namely the two participants. I am beginning to see that i never could have handled her whatever the circumstances. It may have lasted longer had I been single, or it may have been even more explosive. In some way me being married may actually have saved me further punishment because it meant I couldn't have spent as much time with her as I wanted to. What she was telling me in the relationship that I couldn't hear due to my own stuff is that she is damaged. That was told to me in various different ways and I ignored it due to my desire for love (and yes, sex). I should have laid down some strong boundaries and stuck to them but I didn't know how to do that. Now I have more of an idea. Boundaries I would have laid down are: no getting in my face and shouting, no physical attacks and no silent treatment. I should have walked away at the first sign of transgression of any of those. I let her get away with murder. I'm not blaming her, she is damaged. I can see that I was preoccupied with my own stuff, as was she. But I wasn't ready for the physical, verbal and psychological destruction she wreaked upon me.

The marriage. You feel let down. Yet, you didn't see that she was building resentment, step by step, day by day, over this. You were mostly caught up in how it affected you. You couldn't see past your own feelings and understand the severity of it all and be responsive.

I think there is a pattern of his in all your relationships.

I don't feel let down in my marriage. I feel I have let my wife down...Badly.
I feel let down in the affair for reasons I have already documented. I did see my affair partner was building resentments because she voiced them, physically and verbally. I knew only too well how she felt about my communication skills, but it was difficult to get to the root of it all because she constantly called me a narcissist and constantly called me a cheat when I adored her and only her.

Accusations of cheating on you When your partners are overwhelmed or fed up with you and back off, you typically think (and accuse them) of cheating when it is highly unlikely.This has super inflamed situations that were already strained..

In my affair partner's case she constantly threatened to go out with other men, that's why I was jealous and on several occasions did so and led me to believe it was more than just friendship. She tried and succeeded in making me jealous and then went ballistic when I reacted badly to that provocation. Yes, I shouldn't have rise to it but one thing I hate is women trying on purpose to make me jealous. I would never have done that to her. She was jealous anyway but I never gave her cause. It's her pathology...and sadly mine too to believe that she really would have met another guy, she wouldn't have at that point, but my low self esteem was triggered and I reacted badly.

Bad macro choices You get into relationships even when lots of red-flags  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) are visible thinking "what could it hurt". Remember when you started this last relationship? Your wife went on vacation and you went on a date because "you also deserved to have fun".

This I agree with 100%. I have had long discussion about this with my AA sponsor and I do see the red flags but I ignore them in favour of having my needs me. That is dysfunctional behaviour on my part and needs looking at. I do remember that I felt these was something not quite right about her pushiness, her inviting me to live with her after two weeks and then making it about money, about her telling me that I was untrustworthy and a liar early on because I was cheating. When I pointed out she was going out with a married man she deflected it back to me. She then warned me that when she loved, she loved fiercely. These were all red flags to me which I ignored.

I'll just say this... there are a lot of really attractive women out there who are available because they have relationship issues (same is true for men). In a way, its like that back street used car lot that is stocked with all the shinny, sexy Mercedes and BMWs that sold cheap at auction because they had serious mechanical issues.

Patterns, RF. Patterns of things that have not served you well.

Yeah, and I did think exactly that about her. Why is this beautiful woman who has it all going on single? Now I know. If something seems to good to be true, it usually is...sadly.

[Skip]

You've been in this place before with both affair partners and then gone back.

How do you make this your decision and stick to it? Not jump back in because of loneliness. It's coming.

[RomanticFool]

.You've been in this place before with both affair partners and then gone back.

How do you make this your decision and stick to it? Not jump back in because of loneliness. It's coming.  

Loneliness is well and truly here and has been for six weeks, along with grief and rage as my new bedfellows. My ex emailed me tonight and said she wanted to see my show but didn’t know when. I’m supposed to offer different dates and she will tell me why she can’t make them because she is soo busy. I didn’t bite. I told her when the play ends and left it at that. I no longer have the will to reconnect with her toxicity. After two weeks of blocking me on WhatsApp she demanded an invite. It wasn’t forthcoming. I haven’t told her not to come and I haven’t offered her dates. I’m simply being polite as there is no point being anything else. She has left it too long to reconnect with me. Apart from the week’s holiday I have had a dreadful summer. I don’t want the r/s with my ex impacting in my divorce or me getting myself together. It has been a long, extremely painful road but I no longer am attracted to the emotional highs. I want peace and stability. Seeing my wife suffer is sobering. Feeling myself fall into extreme depression with suicidal ideation has been sobering. Having had no love, support or empathy from the ex I don’t want her around me. The change is beginning. The work on myself begins.

[Skip]

You are both bartering for a re-connection...

She said cinema as friends. You said only as lovers. You said, hey I'm getting that divorce. She said "whatever". She says I want to see your play.  You said these are the dates.

So what happens next?

  She shows up all decked out and says she misses you and recycle 21 starts.
  She tells you she is starting to date. You put on the full court press and recycle 21 starts.
  She stops by to congratulate you on the play, you offer to walk her to her car, and recycle 21 starts.

Or instead of "recycle 21 start", she plays hard to get and the bartering game intensifies.

As you said, she is thawing. And this is a dance you both have done before. Heck, this relationship started as a "harmless friends meet at the cinema".

If you want this to end, you know the words to say. You just have to think about it. What words show disinterest without kicking up anyone's abandonment fears.

Do you have the conviction? Do you believe all the things you have written about here over the last 5 weeks? Or was that just emotional venting?

Serious question.

[RomanticFool]

A good question. The truth is I’m terrified of her. She has the power to destroy me emotionally and we are halfway there already. If I reconnect with her and she pulls the plug again, I may not come back for it. It has now become about my health. I ha e no choice. I have to avoid her.

[Skip]

You need to buy space to detach... like another 6 weeks.

[RomanticFool]

I’m not sure she really wants to reconnect properly. She still has me blocked on WhatsApp and takes days to reply on email. It feels to me that these are the last vestiges of her attachment to me that she is exorcising. The gaps between the reconnections are getting longer and she is more emphatic in her stated desire to not engage with me again in a toxic relationship. Perhaps she wasn’t expecting me to hold a boundary around the initial request to come and see my play and then to do the same over the film. She is probably furious that I haven’t pursued her as I usually do. Either that or she doesn’t think about it at all. I really don’t feel qualified to make a judgement or second guess what she is doing. My point being that it doesn’t feel to me as if she wants to reconnect at all.

It would actually be helpful to try and get some insight into her pathology because I really don’t get it at all. That is my continuing problem with her and has been from the word go, I don’t know what motivates her to keep the connection with me. She doesn’t care about me or how I’m doing, she doesn’t love me or have any concern for my well-being. She won’t admit to still wanting me in any way, indeed all of her words and actions are about pushing me away and keeping the boundary. The only way she reconnects is if I initiate contact and then she plays hard to get. What does she want? What does she get out of making any contact at all. If she really has moved on as she says, wouldn’t she just not engage at all? She made one sentence of empathy around my divorce. She has said what we don’t get on and what we don’t argue well. What does she want? 

[Skip]

So, if she reaches out nicely, you will most likely go another round?

Are all or most of the things you say about her being toxic a defense mechanism on your part. Are you devaluing her as a way escape breakup pain? I say this because if you believed half that things you say about her, you would be long gone. 

Anyway..

If she invited you to a movie or is offering to come to see you at your play, she is not done. If she was done, there would be none of this. At the same time, it probably means that she doesn't trust you, thinks you are not the best partner for her and she is not ready to jump back in. If she sees more of what she doesn't like, she will pull back. If there is some major change, she may lean into it - but will hold you are arms length until she feels its not just another ploy.

This is empathy 101, RF. You should understand this by now. You are doing the same type of thing that you did with your wife - rather than working with her and finding a solution, you withdrew and went for the affair.

In this case, if rekindling the relationship is your goal, it's dysfunction to invest your time in an elaborate devaluation effort. That time should be spent looking at how to manage the issues you bring to the relationship.

See the parallel?

[RomanticFool]

I have no plan for anything. I’m trying to understand what motivates her.

It’s really hard to see good in somebody who has accused me of the same level of abuse as Epstein. I’ve never said anything remotely like that to her and by my standards have remained very calm in the face of onslaughts. I have reflected on her behaviour on these boards and how that has affected me. I still maintain that much of my reactivity towards her has been in response to what I would call her abusive behaviour towards me.

I see her as Jekyll and Hyde. I hate Hyde but I have a great deal of time for Jekyll. I know she sees me the same way. So I guess that’s my answer isn’t it. She wants to see my Jekyll too.

. This is empathy 101, RF. You should understand this by now. You are doing the same type of thing that you did with your wife - rather than working with her and finding a solution, you withdrew and went for the affair.

In this case, if rekindling the relationship is your goal, it's dysfunction to invest your time in an elaborate devaluation effort. That time should be spent looking at how to manage the issues you bring to the relationship.

See the parallel?  

I’m not sure what you mean here. Sorry to be dense. Are you saying that I should be working with my ex to find a solution?

I’m not trying to do an elaborate devaluation effort. She has put me through six weeks of hell. I’m trying to understand why on earth after dismissing me so unceremoniously and apparently having lots of fun without me, she is even bothering to talk to me.

Yes, I see the parallel but I feel far too hurt to reconnect with her. I would be a total idiot to allow somebody who keeps ending the relationship and demonising me back into my life. Even if I was of a mind to reconnect because I suddenly had become a paragon of empathy and emotional intelligence, she would still be the same and I’m not up for that. The time to try and work on our issues has gone. So has this relationship. What you are witnessing here are the dying embers.

[Skip]

I’m not sure what you mean here. Sorry to be dense. Are you saying that I should be working with my ex to find a solution?

Definitely not.

Yes, I see the parallel but I feel far too hurt to reconnect with her

The parallel is that you are not reading her well, right now and you are taking dysfunctional actions if your intent is to save the relationship.  The parallel is that having an affair was a dysfunctional response to your wife's frigidness.

AA girl is not trying to destroy you, she is trying to protect herself from you and she is fed up... this is not party time for anyone.

I would be a total idiot to allow somebody who keeps ending the relationship and demonising me back into my life. Even if I was of a mind to reconnect...

The relationship has run its course - dead man walking as they say.

I think you should send her a note that says "If you come to my play it will be distracting and awkward. It's me, not you. Thanks for understanding"

Pull the plug on this one. Get the divorce going. Enroll in a divorce recovery class - they teach life skills to people starting over

[RomanticFool]

Really? If all she is doing is trying to protect herself then why does she take such great delight in telling me how much fun life is without me? Constant silent treatment, taking five days to reply to my email about getting a divorce? Send me emails telling me I'm an abuser and threatening to expose me on social media and call the police? You think these are benign actions from somebody simply trying to protect themselves? Where does cycling past me without stopping a few days after returning from holiday and refusing to pay me the £500 she owed me for the holiday? This is the behaviour of a narcissist, not somebody simply protecting themselves. If that's all she is doing why did everybody advise me to stay away from her and not go to the cinema? Why are you advising me to stay away from her now? Surely all I need to do is learn validation and empathy skills if she is so reasonable and simply protecting herself from bad old me?

Serious question.

[Skip]

I said protect herself and fed up (as in resentment and scorn). Validation is not going to fix that.

Destroy you? That’s another level. Silent treatment or answering your emails slowly is not an attempt to destroy someone.

The reason to get out is that the relationship is toxic. But if your feel there is any threat at any level, close the door tight.