Progress in communication about BPD MIL

[pursuingJoy]

After yet another merry-go-round conversation that didn't result in anything but hurt feelings, I decided to take another approach in communicating with my H.

We do ok when we write thoughts to each other, so I wrote him a message. My purpose was twofold - highlighting what we agree/disagree on for the sake of clarity and defining where we actually are, and taking a stab at what I'd heard him say so that he feels heard.

Copying our email below. My first message is in regular font. His responses are in italics. My final response back to him is in bold. We sent this, minus his "I" statements, to the counselor.

Conclusions:

1.   We agree that our marriage is at stake and that we are both very unhappy.
 
H response: I don’t think our marriage is at stake.  I think that while this seems huge, it’s just from the lack of attention we have been giving it until now.  I am not very unhappy with you pj.  I am struggling to find a better way to communicate with you.   I am struggling with resentment over how we have handled certain things.

1. We agree that we are unhappy due to built-up resentment and avoidance. We agree that our problems feel overwhelming at times. H approved this statement.

2. We agree that the biggest issue is our marriage and our inability to communicate, not my daughter's or your mom's behavior.  
H response: Yes I would agree 100 percent, and how we have handled their behavior

2. We agree that the biggest issue is not H’s mom or pj’s daughters, but our inability to communicate and how we have handled or ignored their behavior. H approved this statement.

3. We disagree on how to handle their behavior. You believe the person with the issue should handle it directly. I believe we need a team approach because we both care deeply about our loved ones.  

H response: Here is where it gets complicated, very complicated.
 
3. We disagree on how to handle their behavior. H believes more so that the person with the issue should handle it directly. He feels that he is not allowed to speak to children and that it is a trust issue. pj prefers a team approach.  We both care deeply about our loved ones.   H approved this statement.

4. We agree that we are incapable of discussing your mom outside of counseling. You end up feeling put in the middle again. I end up feeling like your care more about your mom’s feelings that you do about mine. Neither of us is trying to make the other person feel the way they feel but we have not learned how to interrupt the pattern.  
H response: I don’t agree at all.  I do end up feeling like I am in the middle, not because we cannot discuss it.  But because it goes back to item 3, and we disagree on how to handle the behavior.  Either we aren’t willing to hear the other persons side, or we are not willing to try and cooperate.  

4. We agree that we experience great difficulty discussing H’s mom outside of counseling. H doesn’t like feeling like he’s put in the middle. He disagrees with pj’s understanding of his mom and his relationship with her. He cares about pj, but the conflict between his mom and pj is difficult for him. Conversations about H’s mom result in pj feeling like H cares more about his mom’s feelings than he does about hers. Either we aren’t willing to hear the other persons side, or we are not willing to try and cooperate.   H approved this statement.

5. We agree that we love each other and want to work this out.  We are both trying to reconnect, but aren’t seemingly able to do so.
6. We agree that our marriage is worth saving.  
7. We agree that we are going to have to cooperate to make it through this.  

H’s Perspective:

1.   You have felt deep resentment for a long time that I will not allow you to discipline my children the way you feel is necessary. This resentment has negatively  impacted your relationship to C, E and H, and me.  
H response: Yes Ma’am, I 100 percent agree

1. I have felt deep resentment for a long time that you will not allow me to discipline your children the way I feel is necessary. This resentment has negatively impacted my relationship to your daughters and you. (this statement was removed, H was upset that I put it in an "I" statement and said he didn't want me speaking for him)

2.   You and your mom agree that I should not visit her again unless I can be more friendly to her. The fact that you agree with her has nothing to do with how you were raised or that she’s your mom. You simply happen to agree with her.  
H response: Again here is where it becomes complicated.  It was my impression that you wanted to work on your relationship with her,  and that was one of the reasons for going up there.   I don’t think that simply going up there because of me is going to help that relationship.  I think it actually causes more issues.

2. I and my mom share the opinion that you should not visit her again unless you are more willing to repair your relationship and be more friendly. At the very least, you could pretend everything is ok for the sake of a short visit. I added this because he said it. I am deeply concerned that you do not seem to care about repairing your relationship with her. (Point of clarification: the fact that I agree with her has nothing to do with how I was raised or that she’s my mom. I simply happen to agree with her.)  Going to visit her for my sake creates more issues between you and my mom. I do not think that approach is helping your relationship with her. (this statement was removed, H was upset that I put it in an "I" statement)

3.   Because I took too long to respond to her, your mom has now moved on and doesn’t really care to have a relationship with me. You also don’t really care if I have a relationship with her. In fact, you’re encouraging me not to bother.
H response:   I agree.

3. Because you took too long to respond to her, my mom has now moved on and doesn’t really care to have a relationship with you. I also don’t care if you have a relationship with her. In fact, I’m encouraging you not to bother. (this statement was removed, H was upset that I put it in an "I" statement)
 
4.   You have felt deceived because you understood that ‘working on my relationship with her’ is what I’ve been working on for the past five months. You are disappointed and feel that I’ve lied to you about my motivations. This deceit has left you feeling confused about what I want to accomplish.
H response: Honestly I don’t know if it is deceived or I just wasn’t on the same page as you.  I don’t know what you want honestly.  Yes I am disappointed.  I do understand that you want to work on our relationship.
 
4. For the past five months I’ve had the impression that you were working on your relationship with my mom. As I realize that working on your relationship with her is not your priority, I am struggling with feelings of disappointment and wonder if and why you’ve lied to me about your motivations.  I am confused about what you want to accomplish. Sometimes I feel deceived by you, other times I think we were simply not on the same page.   (this statement was removed, H was upset that I put it in an "I" statement)


pj’s Perspective:

1.  From H:   You are going to counseling to work on our relationship and communication skills.  
1. I am going to counseling to work on our relationship and communication skills. My relationship with your mother is not a priority at this time.

2.  From H:  You resent the relationship that I have with my mom.  
2. I resent the lack of boundaries that you have in your relationship with your mom. I also resent that I am expected to tolerate her behavior.

3.  From H:  You feel like I show a lot of emotion with things, and that can be hard for you and others to be around.
3. The intensity of your frustration and anger can be scary to me and others.

4.  From H: You are having doubts that we are going to make it through this.  
4. I am having doubts that we are going to make it through this. Other times I see a little willingness to learn and grow. I feel overwhelmed and depressed most of the time, and I understand these feelings may be concentrating the doubts that I have.

5. I want to continue visiting your mom as we have, with time limits and structured activities, because it is important to me that you and I develop better boundaries with her. Timing a visit is not unloving. It offers all parties clear expectations. Structuring activities is not unloving. For now, it allows me to keep the door open to a relationship with someone who has caused a good deal of harm.

[pursuingJoy]

This was easier to write this morning than it is to read through now. I'm still processing how wide our divide really is. I know it's wrong to feel this way but I'm so envious of others on this board that have supportive spouses.

[SepiaScarf]

Would your H be willing to write his own I statements? I am really curious to see what that would look like directly from him. Might tease out whether he is just in denial about his own feelings or if the "I" statements don't feel accurate to him.

[pursuingJoy]

I agree, sepia. He was fine as we emailed back and forth, but when I created the I statements he snapped back and said he didn't understand why I had to speak for him. I called him immediately to explain that that was the opposite of my intent, I was actually doing this so that he would feel heard and have an opportunity to clarify what he wanted to say. I happened to be the one initiating, but I was fully, 100% open to changing anything he wanted.

I verbally asked him to write his own "I" statements and he said he wasn't interested. I might email him back in a bit and try again.

[Imatter33]

H approves the we statements but rejects the I statements. It is curious to me...

H may not know what his own voice sounds like, bc he is too accustomed to running everything by mom first. A mom approved need.

I would be very heightened to anything he says that begins with I at all...

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, I kinda wondered the same thing. My priority was that he feel respected so I deleted all "I" statements from his section and just sent the MC my comment and his. That's what he wanted, and it was important to me to send the message that what he wants, matters.

I sense that he doesn't feel much freedom to feel emotions, period. I know he struggles to take ownership of emotions. He claims to not feel anger, so I have to use words like upset or frustrated.

It makes me feel awful because I'm not trying to do that to him. But it would also explain why he's so sensitive about me speaking for him...on some level maybe he resents not having a voice?

I sent him a follow up email inviting him to put #'s 2 and 4 into "I" statements, do away with them, or just adjust them to something that felt more comfortable. Overall he seemed to appreciate this process so I want to capitalize on that.

[formflier]

I love writing things out.

As long as hubby is willing to keep going...keep going.


However...I am worried about his lack of creation here.  He is basically either accepting or rejecting or slightly modifying.

Where is the original thought.  (no criticism of PJ here...just something to be aware of)  If this keeps going without his "original" input...that worries me.  Maybe he just takes a bit to get warmed up.


Focus on the PJ and Mom thing.

Ask him to fill in the following.

Assume I am a fly on the wall.

There is a visit to Mom's house.

What does it look and sound like to watch Mom.

What does it look and sound like to watch PJ.

Just like he expressed some frustration at not understanding what you want...and I mean EXACTLY, I suspect PJ has some (I the FF certainly do) because I haven't got the slightest idea what a "win" for PJ means with Mom.  (the truth may be that he doesn't either...but don't suggest that for a long time)

Do NOT...NOT suggest this to him now, but I picked up vibe of PJ needs to work on the Mom relationship but my Mom does not need to "work" on it.  (anyone else pick up this vibe?)


Overall...this is a positive.  Keep it up.  Few things to keep our eyes on!


Best,


FF

[Imatter33]

I still have a hard time verbalizing needs. For a long time they sounded like... I think I need you too be quiet ( if that’s ok)  after work  so I can Get some things done ...and I’ll talk to you soon ok?
Or i think I want to be alone today.
———oh my gosh what’s wrong... should I come over?


Leaving my need wide open to interpretation.

A need statement I feel should not be contingent.
I need to spend time alone after work.

A true need statement doesn’t ask permission, but somehow that has not typically  been allowed by the BPD person in my life.

[I Am Redeemed]

Do NOT...NOT suggest this to him now, but I picked up vibe of PJ needs to work on the Mom relationship but my Mom does not need to "work" on it.  (anyone else pick up this vibe?)

I sure did. I also picked up on the fact that he keeps emphasizing "how we have handled their behavior". I am not sure, and I certainly don't want to assume, but I am sensing that his focus on that statement and his belief that PJ wanted to work on the "Mom" relationship are related. Like, maybe he was hoping that MC would encourage PJ to handle his mom's behavior differently (i.e., just learn to put up with it and not be affected by it so Mom doesn't have to change a thing but everyone puts on happy faces and there is no more conflict).

[formflier]

OK, so it appears the vibe is really there.

Let me update the request for hubby.

Hubby writes from a fly on the wall perspective:

What PJ looked like in the "before" visits.

What PJ looks like in the "after" visits.

What Mom looks like on "before" visits.

What Mom looks like on the "after" visits

Don't suggest anything, just that he needs to describe both parties before and after.

This should be interesting.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Really good work here in pursuing an avenue for communication that moves you both forward!

The reluctance of inability to have a voice is something that has come up on several threads lately. If the child of a BPD was invalidated and could not individuals from the BPD parent, he/she either loses his/her authentic voice, doesn't recognize what a separate voice sounds like, or subsumed his/her voice to feel "safe" with the parent. Your H may have been uncomfortable with your making "I" statements for him because his mom has been making his statements for him for so long -- some resentment there. In any case, I don't think he has a sense of his authentic voice.

[formflier]

GaGrl makes a massive point.

Part of what I'm trying to do is "boxing in" your husband to provide an answer or not.

Please don't panic if he "clearly" doesn't provide an answer, there is a future down that path.

What is critical in the next few weeks is figuring out if there are answers or not.

My wife is a top notch school teacher.  Above average class test scores, constantly being sought out for advice, well liked etc etc.  People would be shocked that on "intimate" things, she does not want to take a stand (with clarity).

Most likely it comes from if you don't take a stand (position) you can't be "wrong".  My wife was always wrong as a child.  It's not going to be fixed.  I've made allowances and changed how I do things, so we have a functional marriage

Basically on a lot of items I offer her a chance to take a position, then when she doesn't I pull the trigger on something and move forward.  I don't pay attention when she tries to rewrite.

For now let's figure out what camp he will be in.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I still have a hard time verbalizing needs.

That's really interesting insight, Imatter.  It's a little depressing that even in writing, we can't nail down what his concerns are, but at least I have a 'maybe' window into why he can't do that. It sounds like it's common to children of BPD parents.

I sure did. I also picked up on the fact that he keeps emphasizing "how we have handled their behavior". I am not sure, and I certainly don't want to assume, but I am sensing that his focus on that statement and his belief that PJ wanted to work on the "Mom" relationship are related. Like, maybe he was hoping that MC would encourage PJ to handle his mom's behavior differently (i.e., just learn to put up with it and not be affected by it so Mom doesn't have to change a thing but everyone puts on happy faces and there is no more conflict).

Thanks for sharing what you see, FF and IAR. I've definitely felt expected to do the adjusting (get over it, you're overreacting, pretend you're ok, mom's 73 and she's not going to change, that's who she is). If that was always the expectation, it would explain his disappointment.

For some reason I never considered that he hoped the MC would encourage me to handle his mom's behavior differently, but it makes all the sense in the world. Even if he did feel disappointed in the MC, my gut tells me he would never allow himself to express it - he is still trying to put on a face to impress her, he doesn't know her well enough.

Really good work here in pursuing an avenue for communication that moves you both forward!

The reluctance of inability to have a voice is something that has come up on several threads lately. If the child of a BPD was invalidated and could not individuals from the BPD parent, he/she either loses his/her authentic voice, doesn't recognize what a separate voice sounds like, or subsumed his/her voice to feel "safe" with the parent. Your H may have been uncomfortable with your making "I" statements for him because his mom has been making his statements for him for so long -- some resentment there. In any case, I don't think he has a sense of his authentic voice.

Thanks for the encouragement GaGrl. That he doesn't feel freedom to feel emotions or have an authentic voice is really ringing true. Up until this point, his mom's feelings have been his feelings. That is what felt real to him. If he talks to his mom to get more clarity about what she feels about these points, he may respond. If he does not talk to his mom, he may be in limbo for a while.

I sent him an email yesterday gently pushing him to respond to points 2 and 4. He did not mention my email when I saw him last night, and he sent me two other unrelated emails this morning. Maybe he's avoiding it, maybe he's busy. I'll let it go for a while, then I'll send a follow up reminder. I think it's fair to try to get him to think through what he thinks on these points.

I'm also wondering if projection and scapegoating have played a role:

1. When he says, "I don't know what you really want," I wonder if he means, "I don't know what I really want." I know I need to work on communication, but I have been pretty clear in MC since our second session together about being focused on our marriage, that his mom was not a priority, that things with her would fall in place where they should once our relationship was whole again. I remember the MC reiterating this goal several times in several sessions. I assumed he was too emotional to listen because I wasn't validating. I never considered that 'not knowing' may be how he really feels and he's stuck there. Am I reaching?

2. His first rage at my daughter (over taking the bag of chips) coincided with a time when his mom was really becoming disillusioned with me. Around this time MIL kindled an odd friendship with his formerly hated ex-wife, staying over at her house on Christmas, phone chats, babysitting, etc. She also started calling me by the ex-wife's name. I am wondering if that's when MIL started pressuring him more heavily. In the FOG, he wasn't able to be angry with his mom, so he unleashed his anger on me and made it about my daughter. Is that even a thing?

There was something more to his rage than the chips. His reaction to her was way off base and that's always bothered me.

Thanks to everyone who has sludged through this email with me. I know it's a lot but I want to make sure you have everything I have so you can make informed observations - and you are! I really appreciate you. I'll keep you posted if and when he responds to my email.

[pursuingJoy]

I sometimes look for ways to unexpectedly (and positively) disrupt. I have an idea.

His mom's side of the family gets together annually for Christmas. It's ultra awkward. Half of them don't like the other half, there's the snooty clique of popular people and the discarded family members.

I like two of his uncles and their wives. Cousins have been a little rude to me and others, but the get-togethers have been bearable.

After every visit, I started noticing that my MIL would indignantly share, seemingly in my defense, how much the cousins just hated me. H would pick up her indignation and pass along the message, stating he was done going up there to see them. I'm wondering now if she was blowing all of that out of proportion.

They're getting together soon. He is saying he doesn't want to go, but he keeps bringing it up. I am going to insist that we go. What do you think?

[Harri]

Hi PJ!

I sense that he doesn't feel much freedom to feel emotions, period. I know he struggles to take ownership of emotions. He claims to not feel anger, so I have to use words like upset or frustrated.

It makes me feel awful because I'm not trying to do that to him. But it would also explain why he's so sensitive about me speaking for him...on some level maybe he resents not having a voice?

We know you are not trying to do that to him, in fact we know it is the last thing you want to do to him.  His feelings are defining the facts of your behavior for him.  Try to see this as a combination of lack of voice as mentioned by others and not really knowing what he is feeling. 

When I say stuff like that and try to explain what might be going on for him I worry that I sound like I am missing you in the process.  That is not my intention.  Rather I am trying to offer a perspective to help depersonalize this to an extent, but not so you can distance from him but so that you can see the bigger picture and distance from his unhealthy reactions. 

My question for you is, did you feel heard with the email exercise you did with him?  I actually see his responses as being very open for someone who is as enmeshed as he is and who, we assume, is unused to expressing his feelings, or at least is out of touch with them.

I would not push too far, though I do think continuing this is a great idea.   Generally when pushed to see something, people are going to push back ... hard.  Or shut down.  Or cause distance between the two of you which is not what happens in a healthy marriage/relationship.  I know you know that though. 

After every visit, I started noticing that my MIL would indignantly share, seemingly in my defense, how much the cousins just hated me. H would pick up her indignation and pass along the message, stating he was done going up there to see them. I'm wondering now if she was blowing all of that out of proportion.

She may very well be blowing things out of proportion for whatever reason.  I would assume there is a lot of projection going on there.  That she even says anything to you about it is evidence of poor boundaries and poor judgement at the very least.  My brother would repeat stuff like that that my mom said other people said about me.  <roll eyes>  He was/is still enmeshed with my mom, who died in 2007.   Why not say "Gee, that is unfortunate.  I'd rather not hear this stuff in the future.  Thanks."

As for getting together, why not?  Especially if you enjoy some of the relatives.   I used to use those sort of events as a way to practice boundaries and being okay with being me.  Now that I know about it, I use wise mind (combination of my emotional and logical mind) as a way to step back and observe so I can respond (or not) rather than react.

Keep up the good work PJ!   

[formflier]

I am going to insist that we go. What do you think?

Love it!

Please go, even if he doesn't.

Seriously. 

You are starting to "peek over the fence" at how to "move forward" in BPDish relationships. 

What if...?..what if...?.. you stopped reacting and adjusting to them?  What if they started reacting and adjusting to you?

Hmmmm?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  His feelings are defining the facts of your behavior for him.  

PJ

Can you take this thought that Harri shared and ruminate on it for a while.  Seriously...a day or two.

Everytime you have a thought/idea/issue about your hubby or this "situation"...be deliberate to think about it with Harri's thought as the primary "lens".

What is the impact/how do things look from that perspective?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

We know you are not trying to do that to him, in fact we know it is the last thing you want to do to him.  His feelings are defining the facts of your behavior for him.  Try to see this as a combination of lack of voice as mentioned by others and not really knowing what he is feeling. 
 

Thanks Harri. I just want to do what I can to help and not hurt. It's frustrating because even a healthy request may be perceived by him as 'speaking for him.'

I know that part of this is his growth that needs to happen (owning his reality and processing the pain caused by his mother) so I don't want to take on more than what is mine.

Is it possible that the lack of voice is somehow tied to his constantly feeling disrespected, too? For example he feels slighted when my college-age daughter doesn't take his unsolicited advice to get a certain job, find a certain car, fill out a certain application, think about money a certain way. He says he knows she's an adult and doesn't have to listen to him, but maybe if I could tell her these things she would listen.

Rather I am trying to offer a perspective to help depersonalize this to an extent, but not so you can distance from him but so that you can see the bigger picture and distance from his unhealthy reactions. 

I don't feel missed by you all here. The perspective that children of BPD offer is hands down the most valuable learning I get from this board. I've discovered an entire layer of my husband I didn't know existed, a layer that defines every part of who he is. When y'all share what you've learned and been through, it gives me understanding and hope. I see the issue with more clarity and I start to think creatively, which is where I find solutions.

I feel selfish because what you experienced was very real and painful and I don't want to cheapen or lessen that. On the other hand your hard earned wisdom is soo useful to me and I'll soak up all I can get. I need it.

My question for you is, did you feel heard with the email exercise you did with him?  I actually see his responses as being very open for someone who is as enmeshed as he is and who, we assume, is unused to expressing his feelings, or at least is out of touch with them.

I like your perspective. I expected more JADE-ing and anger from him, so I was initially pleasantly surprised at the tone in his first response. The fact that he also took a stab at repeating words! That has not happened in verbal conversation. EVER. It was always an argument, and he later denied that I ever said what I did.

While I appreciate the attempt at mirroring, I still do not feel that he cares about the way I feel, nor did I receive any acknowledgment that he read what I changed, like, "resent my relationship with my mom" to "resent the lack of boundaries in your relationship with your mom." But it's a start.

I would not push too far, though I do think continuing this is a great idea.   Generally when pushed to see something, people are going to push back ... hard.  Or shut down.  Or cause distance between the two of you which is not what happens in a healthy marriage/relationship.  I know you know that though.

Instinctively I do know that, but it's good to hear you say it. I mentioned it to him again as a suggestion and there is still a resistance there I can't put my finger on. If he doesn't respond this time I'll drop it.
 

Why not say "Gee, that is unfortunate.  I'd rather not hear this stuff in the future.  Thanks."

Love this response, and good point about this communication indicating poor boundaries. That is one of the hardest issues to broach with my H. He thinks talking to his mom about everything is normal. Setting boundaries around communication is not just uncomfortable for him, he thinks my request is pointless.

We've already agreed to go up to see his extended family on the 21st. Thumbs up on that.

I asked when he wanted to see his mom for Christmas and he said he would arrange a day to go up, probably the week after when he has his kids.

Hm.

Just realized that I need to prepare myself for him to leave on Christmas Day. It's very possible that his mom will be very emotional and upset because she's spent it with us for the past 6 years. We won't have his kids on Christmas day, so he would see no reason to stay with us. My guess is that he'll tolerate the morning with me and my girls, then leave us to spend the day with MIL.  

I don't even have an issue with him doing that, I just wish he was capable of communicating and planning with me. So, knowing this is coming anyway, maybe I get ahead of it and actually suggest that he plan to take Christmas afternoon off to go see her? And maybe he would see my suggestion as a gesture of kindness on my part?

This sucks! I want a husband that wants to be with me on Christmas Day. He will be miserable with us no matter what, but if she's alone it will be unbearable for him.

[pursuingJoy]

Everytime you have a thought/idea/issue about your hubby or this "situation"...be deliberate to think about it with Harri's thought as the primary "lens".

I will think about this, FF. I agree that Harri's thought is a critical one. It helps me somewhat distance my feelings from how he's actually experiencing me. It is worth ruminating on.

[GaGrl]

Couple of thoughts...

I too have as impressed with your B's willingness to work on paper -- it is a new lens into his thoughts and feelings. Very promising!

He just may not be ready yet to leave his mother alone all day on Christmas Day. Yes, you'd like him to want to be with you on Christmas. You'll get there -- maybe not this year -- but your flexibility could be a gift to him.

And...it's another opportunity for him to sit with his mom and his emotions. I'm sure he has lots to "incubate."

[pursuingJoy]

Very reasonable and stabilizing thoughts, GaGrl.

Something he said this afternoon piqued my interest. I had asked him to reply to my email and he winced and said, but then it's on record. We both work for agencies who are strong on public information laws and using documentation to CYA. I think his first response was a true and unguarded one, but then he realized his email and what he said would be 'on record' and something about that made him stop.

So it's a mixed bag. I'm dropping it.

[Harri]

Is it possible that the lack of voice is somehow tied to his constantly feeling disrespected, too? For example he feels slighted when my college-age daughter doesn't take his unsolicited advice to get a certain job, find a certain car, fill out a certain application, think about money a certain way. He says he knows she's an adult and doesn't have to listen to him, but maybe if I could tell her these things she would listen.

It is possible.  I think the lack of voice is related to a lack of Self (as is seen in pwBPD) or a distorted view of Self (as is seen in c-PTSD).   Being threatened by 'small things' like your daughter essentially having a mind of her own seems to be invalidating to him.  Whether it is a lack of sense of self or a distorted sense of self, there is going to be a defensive reaction.  Using the tools here is important.  Validation will be tricky though as you do not want to validate the invalid.  SET might work better when coupled with boundaries (for yourself and your daughter).  He may get upset regardless of what you do.  The tools are not a cure and do not work 100% of the time.  If he dysregulates, he dysregulates.  Then it is time to step back and let him self soothe and return to center, while you do self care to take care of your own emotions surrounding his being upset including acceptance.

I don't even have an issue with him doing that, I just wish he was capable of communicating and planning with me. So, knowing this is coming anyway, maybe I get ahead of it and actually suggest that he plan to take Christmas afternoon off to go see her? And maybe he would see my suggestion as a gesture of kindness on my part?

Of course you want him to plan and communicate with you.  He is not there yet though.  It does suck and it hurts but it is what is happening.  I think getting ahead of his possibly leaving on Christmas afternoon is a good idea.  Managing our own expectations based on what we know is important. 

I am torn when thinking of you making the suggestion for him to lave to see his mom.  On one hand I am concerned about how it will affect you.  Compromise, validation, allowing him a voice, trying to meet his needs all are wonderful and loving things as long as you do not lose yourself in the process.  On the other hand, suggesting he leave may be taken as a negative thing by him with him hearing you do not want to be with him.  I like what Gagrl said here: 

You'll get there -- maybe not this year -- but your flexibility could be a gift to him.

And then i read this:

This sucks! I want a husband that wants to be with me on Christmas Day. He will be miserable with us no matter what, but if she's alone it will be unbearable for him.

 

he winced and said, but then it's on record.

I learned, and have read that several others here learned, to be careful with writing things down from when we were kids.  For me, things got brought up decades later, even stuff I wrote as a kid.  The idea of keeping a diary?  Good grief no!  I had one and wrote on maybe 3 pages and regretted that.  Letters, notes, even drawings were analyzed and used as emotional weapons or taken as one.  Ugh!  He may never like writing difficult stuff down.   I still don't... and yes, even here it was a huge struggle when I first started posting on line.  It comes up still on occasion for me. 

So it's a mixed bag. I'm dropping it.

Give it a break for now.  Can I suggest you keep this in your bag of tools though?  It seems to work for you and it seemed to help.  He might have been triggered and if you look at that in just the right way, it can be a good thing.  Emotions are being hit, in a gentle and loving way.  So yeah, drop it... for now.  He will be triggered.  Let him self soothe.   

[I Am Redeemed]

Perhaps you can just mentally prepare for him to leave on Christmas "spontaneously" to go see his mom, and gear yourself up to the radical acceptance of that so it won't be as disappointing if it happens.

I would not suggest that you offer that up if it is not a picture of the "goal" you see your relationship reaching with regards to how holidays are spent.

Let him take responsibility for that decision. If he decides to do so, you will be prepared to emotionally handle it. If he does not, you will be pleasantly surprised. But I would not make suggestions to him that automatically sacrifice your needs.

Does that make sense? Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, hand the responsibility for the decision to him. 

[pursuingJoy]

Ok to respond with some sadness if he decides to go? That would be a true response, but if I express sadness Im running the risk of being perceived by him as inflexible/uncaring.

Good thoughts. Thank you.

[pursuingJoy]

I need to honor our marriage by planning together first. He is blinded by emotion and he doesn't know how to begin boundary setting. My thought in suggesting that he think about seeing her that day is an effort to set up him up to succeed, and it enforces the planning boundary that I'm trying to be consistent about. I would want to suggest it in a way that highlights the positive and is forward thinking.

I want him to want to celebrate Christmas with me. It's super painful to accept that my H doesn't/can't/won't care. He's sort of like an addict. It makes me feel worthless and so sad. No amount of emotional flexibility on my part will result in him wanting to spend Christmas with me. Accepting my reality needs to happen for me, and will hopefully allow me a measure of peace and clarity.

I'm not sure these two are mutually exclusive.   

[Imatter33]

PJ,
I definitely hear your sadness in the likelihood that he will choose to go see his mom on Christmas, instead of spending it with you.
However, I wanted to shed some light on the lens you’re seeing him through. My question would be if he spends Christmas with you and does not see his mom...I wonder who you would be spending the holiday with? Would it be the husband that you love to be around? Would he be present or would he be in the FOG of Christmas day not spent with his mom, and your spending the holiday more sad dealing with that particular emotional baggage.

If he can make the choice deliberately out of his desire to be with you it will feel so different then him not seeing mom bc of your feelings of resentment?

From what you’ve said and others, he likely will not be there by Xmas so radical acceptance will help you actually just accept where he’s at.

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, what you're saying terrifies me because he has already chosen her over and over. He lives with me but his heart is with her. He doesn't know how not to choose her. And if he continues to choose her, I don't want to be married to him.

[Imatter33]

Well we are all here to help you process vent and do whatever you need. I know you’re not in an easy position!

 


I certainly had the wool over my eyes are about BPD behavior for years and years!

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks for being there Imatter. 

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been split.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341650.msg13091972#msg13091972

Thank you.