Progress in communication about BPD MIL - Part 2

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341588.0;all

Just finished another session in MC. She said she read over our email and thought we did a good job communicating. He told her that he did NOT like it when I tried to use I statements for him.

We spent most of our time talking about H's resentment towards kids. Per your advice, FF, I shared the example of the chips and asked him specifics of what he would have done differently. He said, "I don't remember. That was years ago. I don't rehash things that happened years ago." I didn't bother to point out that he frequently talks about this incident in terms of how resentful he is.

He is really upset that I don't trust him. I shared that there were things he had done to lose my trust, offering the example of asking him not to tell my daughter he was disappointed in her for suicidal thoughts. He cut me off to say loudly, "And I'd say it again today." At this point I reached my limit and started crying. Each session I go in with some hope, and each time, our conversations are absolutely pointless.

The MC then proceeded to try to convince him that he didn't really mean to say 'disappointed.' Maybe he was just emotional because it reminded him of his brother, and he was just worried for D16? He said no, I was disappointed in her. The MC kept going, suggesting that maybe he meant to express concern because he knew what it was like to lose someone to suicide? He finally said, "Yeah, I guess. Maybe." Pretty sure the MC isn't supposed to convince you you're feeling something, but maybe she was trying to get him to explore other possible emotions? He relies a whole lot on disrespect and disappointment.

I shared that I felt disrespected when he ignored my request not to tell my daughter he was disappointed (he genuinely empathized with feeling disrespected and said he was very sorry). I also asked if it was possible that he bore some responsibility to earn trust he'd lost (he didn't say much). Other than that, I just cried.

Haha ... MC said there was some dysregulation going on (looking at me, because I'm sure at this point I look crazy because I can't stop crying), then very gingerly brought up individual therapy as an additional support mechanism. I said yes, I need support and my depression is worsening. H was hesitant so MC backed way off and said think about it, it needs to be something you choose. So he said, "Yeah fine, whatever. I'm willing to do whatever. I mean, I'm a happy, well adjusted guy with a good life, but I'm willing to see someone."

We also talked about his rage (he calls it animation). He said he understood that it caused me discomfort and he was going to try to work on it.

What a cluster.

[pursuingJoy]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341588.0;all

Just finished another session in MC. She said she read over our email and thought we did a good job communicating. He told her that he did NOT like it when I tried to use I statements for him.

We spent most of our time talking about H's resentment towards kids. Per your advice, FF, I shared the example of the chips and asked him specifics of what he would have done differently. He said, "I don't remember. That was years ago. I don't rehash things that happened years ago." I didn't bother to point out that he frequently talks about this incident in terms of how resentful he is.

He is really upset that I don't trust him. I shared that there were things he had done to lose my trust, offering the example of asking him not to tell my daughter he was disappointed in her for suicidal thoughts. He cut me off to say loudly, "And I'd say it again today." At this point I reached my limit and started crying. Each session I go in with some hope, and each time, our conversations are absolutely pointless.

The MC then proceeded to try to convince him that he didn't really mean to say 'disappointed.' Maybe he was just emotional because it reminded him of his brother, and he was just worried for D16? He said no, I was disappointed in her. The MC kept going, suggesting that maybe he meant to express concern because he knew what it was like to lose someone to suicide? He finally said, "Yeah, I guess. Maybe." Pretty sure the MC isn't supposed to convince you you're feeling something, but maybe she was trying to get him to explore other possible emotions? He relies a whole lot on disrespect and disappointment.

I shared that I felt disrespected when he ignored my request not to tell my daughter he was disappointed (he genuinely empathized with feeling disrespected and said he was very sorry). I also asked if it was possible that he bore some responsibility to earn trust he'd lost (he didn't say much). Other than that, I just cried.

Haha ... MC said there was some dysregulation going on (looking at me, because I'm sure at this point I look crazy because I can't stop crying), then very gingerly brought up individual therapy as an additional support mechanism. I said yes, I need support and my depression is worsening. H was hesitant so MC backed way off and said think about it, it needs to be something you choose. So he said, "Yeah fine, whatever. I'm willing to do whatever. I mean, I'm a happy, well adjusted guy with a good life, but I'm willing to see someone."

We also talked about his rage (he calls it animation). He said he understood that it caused me discomfort and he was going to try to work on it.

What a cluster.

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry, pj...an MC session like that is frustrating. I'm thinking the value comes in getting additional insight.

Here's what I see from what you write...

If your H is limited to such a very limited emotional vocabulary -- disrespected, disappointed, animated -- and really has such trouble moving off those emotions, I have to believe 1) he has limited experience in feeling certain emotions (it's difficult to name something you've never seen or touched, etc.) and 2) it's probable that his emotional experiences were so invalidated and/or shut down that he only feels safe with very narrow emotional definitions.

The other observation is that I wonder what triggers his retreat into his "I'm OK" position. Is it your display of emotion? How defensiveness?

Your MC may have been probing to see what his breadth of emotion actually is?

[pursuingJoy]

If your H is limited to such a very limited emotional vocabulary -- disrespected, disappointed, animated -- and really has such trouble moving off those emotions, I have to believe 1) he has limited experience in feeling certain emotions (it's difficult to name something you've never seen or touched, etc.) and 2) it's probable that his emotional experiences were so invalidated and/or shut down that he only feels safe with very narrow emotional definitions.

It's helpful to hear what you see, GaGrl. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. The lack of feedback from the MC means these sessions really test all of my resolve and emotional awareness, alone. MC works really hard to keep everything fair and across the board. Sometimes I leave wondering if I'm imagining things, like maybe all of this is in my head.

It didn't help that the MC mentioned an individual therapist she knew that she would highly recommend, but when I showed interest, she said, "I don't think he'd be a good fit for you." That really made me feel like something was wrong with me, like I'm too much for a therapist. 

I know the depression and anxiety render me very sensitive right now, but that session was rough.

Your MC may have been probing to see what his breadth of emotion actually is?

That's the only thing I can figure. I asked him the same things when he first said he was disappointed, thinking maybe he was triggered because of his brother, but he's always been adamant that he means what he said, that D16 let him down by having suicidal thoughts, and he only tells her he's disappointed because he really cares.

I asked him later if MC was accurate in describing his feelings. He was really vague again. I think you're right that he just doesn't have access to, feel freedom to feel or comprehension of a wider range of emotions.

The other observation is that I wonder what triggers his retreat into his "I'm OK" position. Is it your display of emotion? How defensiveness?

Can you help me understand which "I'm ok" position you're referring to?

[GaGrl]

Sure.

When he said, "I'm a happy, well-adjusted guy, but I'm willing to see someone."

That to me was retreating to a defensive position.

[pursuingJoy]

Gotcha. For me, his response was pretty consistent with his overall mentality that he had an ideal upbringing. Our issues are because I have issues and he's being a supportive husband by joining me in MC.

When the MC suggested individual counseling, he needed to clarify to her that it wasnt him with the issue.

[Harri]

Hi PJ. 

That was a rough session.  How are you doing today?

I am glad the MC brought up individual counseling.   I hope your husband follows through on it.  I think it will be good for you, not because I think you are the issue here.  It is more about you being supported and being able to talk freely without worrying about balancing your husbands needs at this point.  This is such a difficult and painful thing that it would be great to get some one on one input and support.  Have you looked into it?

We spent most of our time talking about H's resentment towards kids. Per your advice, FF, I shared the example of the chips and asked him specifics of what he would have done differently. He said, "I don't remember. That was years ago. I don't rehash things that happened years ago." I didn't bother to point out that he frequently talks about this incident in terms of how resentful he is.

What kept you from speaking up about how he will in fact bring up the incident?  His brushing the incident off and in essence denying that the incident bothers him seems like another attempt to make him the one without the issues.    I find that stuff infuriating. 

It didn't help that the MC mentioned an individual therapist she knew that she would highly recommend, but when I showed interest, she said, "I don't think he'd be a good fit for you." That really made me feel like something was wrong with me, like I'm too much for a therapist.

     I have felt similar.  I think she was probably thinking he would be a good fit for your husband right?  Why else would she have mentioned him?

PJ, I see your courage and the love and concern you have for your husband.  It is achingly beautiful.  I remain concerned that you are getting lost in the process.  We've got you here.  I think individual therapy will do you a world of good too.   

[I Am Redeemed]

I second harri, I got the impression that the MC brought up the individual counselor to highlight it for your husband.

Are you going to do an individual session with the MC for you? Perhaps you can ask her for a recommendation for yourself. I am sorry you had to go through such a rough session, but perhaps the MC is now getting a more clear picture of the challenges you are facing when trying to communicate.

Going back to the Christmas thing, is it possible that your husband doesn't even know what he really wants? He doesn't seem to have any awareness of his own emotions, and he seems to have conformed to the role of being an extension of his mother. Perhaps he doesn't know how he, personally, would like to spend Christmas. It seems like he is so used to being controlled by FOG that he doesn't know how to distinguish between his mother's wants/needs and his, much less anyone else's.

Am I making sense? I am just exploring possibilities here

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks all. I'm so sorry for venting so much. I'm at an exceptionally low point. I felt a little better yesterday afternoon because H came and talked to me. He was calm, we just chatted about the kid's issue again, like we used to in the beginning.

We are trying to reconnect but there is so much tension built up that small things set us off. This morning he left without saying goodbye which he only does when he's pissed off at me. I checked in with him and he just said he'd miscalculated his time, the kids' two hr delay threw him off.

I don't know what's real and what's just passive-aggressive. He doesn't know what he feels, so here we are.    

Have you looked into it?

I texted the MC yesterday asking if she could recommend someone and I started searching online today. It takes time to find someone that takes my insurance, much less click with. This time I'd also love to find someone that has experience with BPD and blended families.

What kept you from speaking up about how he will in fact bring up the incident?  

Acceptance, I guess. He couldn't process his emotions when it happened and we've had the same conversation over and over in the last 3 years. As you noted, the benefit here was that the MC was able to observe.

He admitted yesterday that he can't remember everything that happened, that it's a fog in his head. Oh! He did share in counseling that the neighbors told him it happened with cookies, too - they would give her a few cookies, then she would go steal more. I said this was the first I'd heard of cookies. He said the neighbor told him. I asked why they didn't talk to me, and why he didn't share that with me when it happened. He said he didn't know, he thought I knew.

I didn't get into this because (1) I don't know if he is being honest, (2) this neighbor had a nasty habit of stirring up trouble with other neighbors down the street, and (3) I'm not sure I'd qualify taking more cookies as stealing but I'm not going there with him. Pushing boundaries? Yes. Rude to help herself and take more than she was offered? Yes. Stealing? That's a stretch. But H has limited categories and 'thief' was the only category she fit into.

Later when he came to talk to me, he said that he was really upset that D16 didn't show remorse. I said his frustration was understandable, and I noted some examples when I'd felt the same way to let him know that I empathized. I added truth that neither of us can make anyone feel remorse, and that the goal of punishment was to curb the behavior. In this case, the punishment was effective because she has never stolen anything since then. (Did I kind of do SET?)

PJ, I see your courage and the love and concern you have for your husband.  It is achingly beautiful.  I remain concerned that you are getting lost in the process.  We've got you here.  I think individual therapy will do you a world of good too.  

Your kindness and care mean the world, Harri.   Thank you for filling the gap while I find a T. I hope I find a T soon. I don't even care anymore if my H goes to individual T. That's on him.

[GaGrl]

Does your employer have an Employee assistance Program? They might be able to do some of the legwork for you -- just to find 3 therapists with the kind of experience you're looking for, so you can do a phone interview.

[pursuingJoy]

I second harri, I got the impression that the MC brought up the individual counselor to highlight it for your husband.

Thanks IAR. I sometimes leave these MC sessions feeling invalidated and I'm not sure if it's just my level of sensitivity or if it's something happening in there.

Are you going to do an individual session with the MC for you? Perhaps you can ask her for a recommendation for yourself. I am sorry you had to go through such a rough session, but perhaps the MC is now getting a more clear picture of the challenges you are facing when trying to communicate.

I have followed up with both MC and husband to see how they want to move forward with individual sessions or joint. An individual session would be helpful for me but I feel insecure to ask for one after the way I left feeling.

Going back to the Christmas thing, is it possible that your husband doesn't even know what he really wants? He doesn't seem to have any awareness of his own emotions, and he seems to have conformed to the role of being an extension of his mother. Perhaps he doesn't know how he, personally, would like to spend Christmas. It seems like he is so used to being controlled by FOG that he doesn't know how to distinguish between his mother's wants/needs and his, much less anyone else's.

I think you nailed it. He says he doesn't care much about birthdays and Christmas. He's always had to fall in line with his mom, whatever that meant, on these important dates. Because he's wired that way, even expressing the most innocent preference on my part is perceived as counter pressure to the mom-pressure he already feels and is therefore perceived as a threat.

The other day he got to talking about how he used to do holidays with his ex when they were married. Very early on they started splitting holidays. He would go to his family's, she would go to hers. He justified that by saying his ex was very set on seeing her family.

So 13 years of split holidays, followed by 1-2 years of transition to flexible singleness when he still went to see his mom, then his mom's been with us for the last 5 years. As I review the landscape, I predict this Christmas is going to be rough.    

The one thing I have going for me is that he feels he should prioritize us, his wife and kids. This is the first year when that value will be tested around a holiday.

[pursuingJoy]

Does your employer have an Employee assistance Program? They might be able to do some of the legwork for you -- just to find 3 therapists with the kind of experience you're looking for, so you can do a phone interview.

Good thought GaGrl, I hadn't thought of that. Part of me feels a little hesitant as I know all the EAP people, but maybe I move past that and just do it. I ran a search on psychology today and found two promising candidates that are nearby, I know at least one takes my insurance.

[formflier]

Whew!   I just got back from a short trip.  That sure was some session.   

I'm going to give a "first response", since I've read through things once.  I'll come back and try to study things deeper...later. 

This is in no particular order.

I'm going to raise the question that others have raised of why you back off and let him continue to have it both ways about the chips or cookies or whatever.

If he can't recall...the problem is solved, is there any reason to talk about it further?

If he can recall, then let's have details. 

It seems to me that a choice was made to stay in heads I win, tails you loose.  It seems to me that both parties made that choice.  My guess is that MC took a big note of this for the future, she got to see a big part of the dynamic between you guys.

I would plan on raising this next session to either understand it or put it away.  Stay away from saying "solve". 

If it can't be understood, then how can it be solved.  I think there is a heavy investment in "not understanding".  (perhaps this is "honest" investment, if people really don't understand)  In fact I would suggest proceeding as if this is "the honest truth". 
 
There is a part of me in this thread. Power struggles.  I will broadly say that I've learned over the years to have fewer power struggles and make sure you win any struggles that you choose to be a part of.

That certainly led me to think things through very carefully. 

So, I'm going to ask PJ to think through what Christmas days is all about?

I'm also going to suggest you go to him and suggest making plans and let him take the lead. 

If something comes up that is acceptable, I would ask you to use something like this.

"I'm really looking forward to our Christmas plans that you suggested.  Can we agree these are our plans and before even considering changing them, we commit to checking with each other first."

DO NOT mention his Mom.  If he brings her up, listen and ask validating questions. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

PJ  Please "hear" this very clearly from me.  I 100% support you wanting to "carve out marriage time" that is not intruded on by anyone.

I wanted the same thing and I have that now in my marriage.  For a few years I didn't.

PJ if your goal is to have future Christmas times be exclusive with your hubby, focusing on this Christmas is going to be counterproductive.  I can explain details if needed.  These things take a long time to shift momentum.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Thanks IAR. I sometimes leave these MC sessions feeling invalidated and I'm not sure if it's just my level of sensitivity or if it's something happening in there.

Can you start journaling about this?  Lots of details. 

I'm going to take a guess that coming back to this later is going to show you some insight into yourself! 

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Just had a conversation with a friend who also told me that I'm getting lost in this. The reason I back off is because I've been fighting for years with zero impact, I am so so tired, and I read here about how JADE-ing is ineffective. 

My friend pointed out that counseling is really the time to take a stand. Maybe I'll just find the energy to present my authentic perspective during counseling and allow things to play out in the hopes the MC can wrangle us.

[formflier]

My friend pointed out that counseling is really the time to take a understand. Maybe I'll just find the energy listen to present my authentic perspective during counseling and allow things to play out in the hopes the MC can wrangle us.

Think about my edits for a bit.  How do they apply to the chips/cookies incident?

FF hint...your answer should be about "conserving energy" and "an open door to a win".

Best,

FF

[Harri]

Hi PJ.  Take some time with all of this.   

Acceptance, I guess ... Just had a conversation with a friend who also told me that I'm getting lost in this. The reason I back off is because I've been fighting for years with zero impact, I am so so tired, and I read here about how JADE-ing is ineffective.

I understand what you are saying and sometimes I think it is best to leave past events in the past and focus on the things in the present.  I also get that feeling of being tired of fighting and arguing.  It is draining.  I am not sure I see JADE in this issue though.   Can you help me see what you are seeing?

My friend pointed out that counseling is really the time to take a stand. Maybe I'll just find the energy to present my authentic perspective during counseling and allow things to play out in the hopes the MC can wrangle us.

I agree that counseling is the place to talk about the tough stuff, especially when the MC is there to mediate.  I do think being authentic is important for you and for any therapy you may have whether it is MC or not. 

You have put so much energy into listening and gaining insight into your husband.   Your getting lost and your needs being glossed over have to play a part in your feeling of exhaustion and depression I think.  I am not sure where the balance point is to be honest. 

This always feels like a lame question to ask but it is sincere     What are you doing to take care of you, to express your needs here so that you feel heard?  You have your friend (which is great), you have us here though we focus a lot on your husbands needs and I think that needs to shift a bit at least in some threads, and you will have your own T soon.  what else?

Hang in there with us PJ.  We've got you.

 

[formflier]

The point below is especially important for "those like" PJ who are "can do" people and display an enormous amount of dedication, drive and energy into loving their families. 

You have put so much energy into listening and gaining insight into your husband.   Your getting lost and your needs being glossed over have to play a part in your feeling of exhaustion and depression I think.  I am not sure where the balance point is to be honest. 
 
Hang in there with us PJ.  We've got you.
 

We do have you PJ! 

I'm positive that you are heading to a better place in your life and relationships.  It can be tough to wait to be able to "turn the page" and start reading the next chapter.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I needed to take a weekend break from posting. My brain was fried

FF, so true, it can be hard to wait for the page to turn.

Harri, I feel like I'm JADEing when we repeat the same conversations in counseling and I'm constantly repeating myself. He says "I whooped my own daughter's butt for stealing" and I say "You made her sit on her bed and play with Barbies for one afternoon." I've had this conversation with him many, many times. His personal narrative always supersedes truth. The tape in his head will always win out over what I say.

At some point I stop disagreeing because our conversations turn into a pointless "Nuh uh" --- "Yuh-huh" ---"Nuh-uh" -----"Yuh-huh."

And that's one helpful thing I learned about myself this weekend. I'm so, so angry at him. I'm angry that he's taken advantage of me financially. I'm angry at the nasty things he's said about kids. I'm angry that he's disrespected numerous requests not to share intimate information with his mom. I'm angry that he defends his mom's behavior by, of all things, putting me down. I'm angry that he chooses to stay where he is instead of growing.

And I don't know what to do with my anger. I feel that I've been honest with him and let him see. He is becoming increasingly resistant to growth and that is his choice to make. The frustrating part is that his resistance is showing up in exceedingly positive ways that are coming across as manipulative. After saying for 6 years that he couldn't afford an engagement ring (very long and painful story, don't want to share at this time), most recently until next year, he's somehow managed to buy one and he's very excited to give it to me. All I can think about is whether his mom paid for it, why did he withhold it this long, and I feel frustration that I can't genuinely enjoy it for fear of how it will obligate me. My heart is so locked up. I keep him at arm's length, partly out of wisdom, partly out of hurt.

Still working on my stuff but I may take a break from posting personal stuff for a while. Hopefully getting an individual session with the MC on the books for this week.

[formflier]

And I don't know what to do with my anger. 

Two thoughts.

1.  Regarding anger:  Let it "fuel action" for you to "do" the relationship differently.  Broadly:  Focus more on what you do to protect yourself because you believe you are worth protecting, focus less on what your hubby does.

2.  Keep opening the door for victory: And then let him figure out if he will walk through or not.

For instance.  The daughter discipline thing.  We both know the best thing is a full conversation and full and detailed understanding. 

However, what if you agreed with him  it's a long time ago and best to put away understanding and resentment over that issue.  (make sure you say both understanding and resentment).

"do you agree it's best to focus on the future?"

He just may grab it and drop it.  Then be very succinct in the future if he brings up resentment.

"Oh my, do you want to have a conversation so we can better understand each other?"

The core message.  2 paths.

1.  Talk and understand it
2.  Put it away.

Ok, sort of a third.  Should he choose to be resentful, you won't be participating.

I'm glad you took time to care for yourself this weekend!

Best,

FF

[Spindle0516]

This is me just hoping that you're finding some time to take some deep breaths in the midst of all this.

I've found myself really aggravated and angry and resentful this weekend too. Doesn't it sometimes feel like we are always just gearing up for the next intense conversation?   BUT I just went for a run. Even though it was FREEZING, I feel like I can breathe again and I am just trying to enjoy that feeling for a moment before another serious chat tonight.

[pursuingJoy]

Love that you went for a run, Spindle. BREATHE AWAY!  Enjoy this moment.     

Sometimes when I find my heartbeat racing or anxiety going up, I'll count down from ten and as I do, I note the temperature of the air, the things around me, the sounds I hear, just to ground myself. I talk to myself a lot and say that the fear is perceived, not real. Yesterday I went out alone and got some Christmas shopping done, then I spend hours wrapping. At one point I just felt angry so I screamed at the top of my lungs and banged the steering wheel.

I need space from my H and this mess.  I'm also intentionally spending time thinking about creative solutions, things I haven't tried yet.

Thinking of you. Just responded to your post.

[Harri]

Hi PJ. 

Thanks for answering about JADE.  I see what you are saying.  The circular convos with no end are incredibly draining. 

And that's one helpful thing I learned about myself this weekend. I'm so, so angry at him. I'm angry that he's taken advantage of me financially. I'm angry at the nasty things he's said about kids. I'm angry that he's disrespected numerous requests not to share intimate information with his mom. I'm angry that he defends his mom's behavior by, of all things, putting me down. I'm angry that he chooses to stay where he is instead of growing.

I am glad you can put that into words and release some of it here. 

Still working on my stuff but I may take a break from posting personal stuff for a while. Hopefully getting an individual session with the MC on the books for this week.

Taking a break is good.  You have been hit with a lot and it seems like it has been realization after realization so I am glad you are taking time for yourself.