How can I help my wife get help?

[udontexist]

Hi folks,

I've been with my wife for over a year now, and I only recently figured out that she has BPD.  She is from Africa and believes that she is cursed by her witch aunts, but also that she is somehow spiritually beyond everyone (as she has spirit "guides" who show her things--usually negative false things about me).

It took me a year to get her to recognize her narcissistic traits. I've been trying to get her to read up on BPD, but I think this is kind of going against her belief system. She doesn't even talk to me anymore (aside from a few texts per day asking if I'm ok).

For the past few months we've been living separately, which is a blessing that we can afford it. It has given us a lot more peace, altho despite it being originally her idea, she doesn't seem to like the fact that I prefer living apart from her and barely seeing her to being subject to her abuse every day (usually just screaming accusations, but occasionally also pushing me, preventing me from leaving a room, etc).

She says she does want to find a therapist, but she never follows thru. She has never really done therapy except as a teenager for a few sessions.

I think she's afraid of being "labeled" as BPD by a therapist now. She thinks she can fix herself just thru meditation. But her meditations often bring her visions of my evilness and such, instead of clearing her mind up.

We've had a terribly tumultuous relationship. Thankfully, no children together yet. One of the hardest things is the lack of trust. I don't trust her because she lies all the time (and denies it of course, until I point out specific undeniable lies--she even deleted the lie catalog I had written up on her), and she doesn't trust me because she just thinks it is unlikely that anyone would be honest--I think she's never really met anyone who was honest with her.

I do think (and am not alone in this assessment) that she is a genuinely good person (unlike my ex-wife who is a self-described misanthrope and tried to kill me and my mom) who is simply in need of help for this condition.

I've been reading books and watching youtube videos and really learning a lot about how I should have been dealing with my wife more compassionately. To be honest, I'm not sure I'm mature enough to love someone who just yells at me in return with vile accusations, but that's my goal if that is what works. What I've found thru experiment is that usually what gets her to get back to her normal self is when I tell her I want a divorce, which is why I kept using the negative approach with her, but now I'm thinking perhaps it only appeared to be working (she did what she thought I wanted her to do temporarily).

I'm not desperate to remain in this marriage (ok, maybe my inner child is, but I rarely talk to him), but if me being here for her can really help her get better, then I think I need to do that if at all possible, rather than focus on selfish desires (to be loved consistently).

She has told me she needs time. I'm patient.

I'm just wondering if I'm taking the right approach by a) not living with her "until she trusts me", and b) continually asking where she is at on the road to getting DBT therapy.

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[NoliTimere]

Hi

I'm sorry you're going through this, it sounds like a really difficult time - I've gone through a similar period with my partner in the past.

Drawing on my own experience, I think there's a few things you can do to try to improve the situation.

First of all, I don't think you should discount your own needs to be loved and cared for. Those are completely valid and not something you should have to give up on. See them as goals for you both to work towards.

Second, in my relationship two things have helped. 1: I practiced what I preached and went to therapy myself. When my partner perceived a change in me and that I was feeling better, he became more open to going himself. 2: stick to your boundaries, but make them precise. Communicate clearly how your wife can demonstrate her trust in you (trust is such an abstract concept, sometimes we just need people to act with trust, until we can generate it, which happens when we realise our trust is rewarded). 3: I found Shari Y. Manning's book Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder really helpful (there's an ebook and an audiobook).

Finally, it's really difficult not to respond with anger and hurt feelings, when one's partner is behaving in difficult/destructive ways, but I would recommend avoiding threatening with divorce and instead enforcing smaller boundaries for more specific behaviours. In my experience, threatening to leave creates a lot of insecurity and doesn't have the positive benefits as observing and enforcing smaller boundaries. I use communication/my time/help (different kinds of positive reinforcement) as leverage. For example, if my partner is angry and verbally abusive over WhatsApp, I refuse to reply to text messages and say I will talk to him on the phone (when he's calmer). This works very well.  My partner responds well to these boundaries and I think reinforcing them creates a system he understands, can predict and eventually feels safe in. Maybe you can try some of these with your partner's lying?

I don't threaten the relationship unless I am actually going to follow through when he pushes the boundary. The way I see it is that it's less of a boundary and more of a threat - if you walk away forever, the boundary has been enforced (but you don't benefit), if you return then the boundary is no longer effective.
 
I hope that helps! Either way, hang on in there and take care of yourself.

 

[udontexist]

Thanks NoilTimere,

I had previously looked at that book on Amazon but a few negative reviews (I always pay special attention to those) led me to ignore it. Since you recommend it, I'm going to read it.

Every time I've threatened divorce, I meant it. I really, really had enough and felt totally done. But I guess what really ends up happening is I realize that I simply did not need to react to my wife's distress with my own distress, and to divorce just because I was not acting correctly seems silly. Plus, she always pleads with me to stay, and she is the sweetest person inside, despite all the BPD stuff outside. I've never connected so deeply with anyone before and I'm sure I never could again.

Both of us need to be better at truly meaning what we are saying, but I need to take the lead since I don't have BPD. I do feel traumatized from 2 abusive relationships, especially the previous one, and I did go to therapy for a while. My last therapist flat out told me I don't need therapy. She felt I was wasting time talking to her because I was pretty well-adjusted despite the trauma. Perhaps I'm just not a good patient or something. I do feel like I can be my own therapist, if I have the space to do so (not constantly barraged by drama). Even with therapy, constant drama is very difficult to handle, but I have a lot of reframing to do to gain proper perspective. I recognize that.

When I say that I don't want to live with my wife until she trusts me, I mean, trusts that I'm being honest with her. I understand this is sort of a double standard, because I don't trust her. But the fact is, I AM honest with her, and she is NOT honest with me (of course, you don't know either of us so you don't know which one of us is lying, I get that, but let's just assume for now that what I'm saying is true). Having said that, I do feel that (tho I could be wrong) she is *basically* honest despite her multitude of lies. What I mean by that is, to the extent that she is capable, she does love me. She's not lying about that. She does trust me deep down, despite her distrust on the surface. I don't believe she is having an affair with another man. I've told her how much I appreciate honesty. I hope she understands. If she is having an affair, the worst part of it to me would be that she felt she needed to lie about it. The jealousy I would feel would be secondary to that. But again, I really don't think she is--I mean yeah I get that feeling sometimes when she is so super distant, but I know it's just probably my own insecurity. She is flirty (huge double standard there) but she doesn't hide that (she'll be flirty even while I am present, but still deny it). That lack of self-awareness and need for attention is really unattractive to me, but I have to keep in mind that things can get better.

She has said so many times that she knows we can't be together without trust, but then she goes backward and says the trust still has to be earned.

What she doesn't understand is that distrust breeds more distrust. If your suspicions of someone are proven wrong, over and over and over, at what point do you say they have earned your trust? This really gets to me. I need to be more patient. But I'm just not sure how healthy it would be for us to live together without trust. This is my main question for folks here.

[udontexist]

I guess I've basically just answered my own question. Here's the message I just sent to my wife (who by the way has all of the money that I make in her account up til now):

Honey,

I don't know what you are doing every day over there. You don't tell me. All I hear from you is accusations.

I am not going to finance your mental illness. If you want to continue with your condition as is, you can finance yourself somehow.

I sent you now over $1000 specifically earmarked for therapy. You have not found a therapist. You admitted you have not even checked your voicemails to see if they returned your calls. Therapy is not a "whatever" thing for you. It is a dire necessity.

I sent you a list of therapists who specialize in BPD (let me know if you can't find the list and I'll resend it...). They will be able to diagnose you if you have it. If you don't have it, they will still be able to help you figure out what's going on.

Until you start regularly seeing a therapist who specializes in BPD (and has a BPD support team, because BPD therapists don't work alone), you will not receive more money from me, and I will not talk to you about anything unless you can show you are making real progress in finding a therapist. This should not take more than a week or two, probably much less. 

I wish you well. I hope you find what you are looking for in life. I sincerely hope you are not looking for what you seem to be, which is a trustless marriage...

I will leave you with a few pieces of wisdom, which is all you need to end your mental illness:

1) Emotions cloud perception. Emotions can be tools for positively engaging in the world, or they can be allowed to rule you. So far, you have chosen to allow emotions to control your perceptions. (Do not accuse someone without evidence. The fact that your husband bought palm oil is not evidence he is cheating on you. The fact that you accused your husband of cheating because he bought palm oil, is evidence that you are not fit for marriage yet.)

2) If your perceptions are accurate, that means you already have some peace, and you will continue to gain peace due to your accurate perceptions.

[udontexist]

Ok, funny story.

My wife comes over without any notice as usual (tho I hadn't seen her in I think some weeks). She probably came because I wasn't being my usual sweet self on Whatsapp asking how she was feeling (since in the e-mail I mentioned I didn't want to talk to her until she started on the road to therapy).

She was sweet, drawing me in, wanted sex etc. I asked her if she read the e-mail. She said what email? I said why don't you read it? She said, "I don't want to." I said ok I'll read it to you. She said "That's so impersonal, just tell me what you want to tell me." I said, "The gist of it is you need therapy..."

She says, "I'm actually going to therapy."

I said, "Huh? You are? What?"

She said, "Yeah, it's a support group for people with trauma."

I said, "You never even told me that... what do they talk about?"

She said, "Well, I go there but I haven't been yet."

I said, "Um, ok so you 'go' but not really. You have not yet gone."

"Right."

Me: "Ok... well anyway, you need more than a support group. You need to go to a therapist who is certified in BPD treatment and works with a BPD team."

Her: "I don't operate like that. I will find a therapist my own way. It might be at a coffee shop, or maybe just walking on the street, I might meet the perfect BPD therapist for me. I want to get to know them naturally first."

Me: "That's not going to happen. Get real."


Then what ended up happening is we just cuddled (I wasn't in the mood for sex very much and she could tell).

Anyway, next day she goes to this Pentecostal church (she's not even Christian but she likes the social interaction), and when she comes back, I'm feeling kind of lame about myself because I basically haven't been able to get thru to her at all with my message, and I violated my own limits by being intimate with her last night (cuddling).

She notices I'm not kissing her today, altho I'm being nice and cutting up a pineapple for her. She says, "I can never figure you out." I said, "Hm, that's interesting, because that's what they say about BPD--folks with BPD can't mentalize, meaning they can't really understand what others are thinking/feeling altho they think they can. You fit the BPD description well." She said, "Oh, why thank you." I laughed. I said, "Look, if you want to know what's on my mind, why not check the email I sent you?" She said, "I deleted it." That was so ironic to me. I said something like, "You want to know why I'm acting like this, yet you don't really want to know, because you deleted my email without reading it. Well, it's going to be funny when you start noticing I don't give you money anymore but you don't know why, because you didn't read the email I sent."

THAT got her attention. Now she really wanted to know what I wrote.

So I pulled out my sent mail and I read the email to her (which you can see in my last message here). She was pissed that I had "broken my promise" to take care of her financially. I said (with some anger), "Look, I care about you, and I'm not going to throw money at you when you are not using it to help yourself get better. That's not caring." Despite her anger, she was surprisingly low-key. After a bit she left, went back to her place, thank Jesus.

[once removed]

I'm not desperate to remain in this marriage (ok, maybe my inner child is, but I rarely talk to him), but if me being here for her can really help her get better, then I think I need to do that if at all possible, rather than focus on selfish desires (to be loved consistently).

She has told me she needs time. I'm patient.

I'm just wondering if I'm taking the right approach

what is the ultimate goal?

to improve the marriage? to keep things as they are, with some distance? to slowly edge out?

[udontexist]

what is the ultimate goal?

to improve the marriage? to keep things as they are, with some distance? to slowly edge out?

Hm. Ultimate goal. Well, if she can get over her BPD, or at the very least if she could trust me, we could have a decent marriage. That would be nice. I just don't see how we can have any real relationship with zero trust and nothing but accusations.

At this point, keeping things as they are means I live by myself. She lives by herself. We don't share anything. Pretty soon we'll be divorced and that's that.

She lives in a fantasy reality where she can have a close relationship with someone that she thinks is an evil lying cheater... how strange!

[once removed]

She lives in a fantasy reality where she can have a close relationship with someone that she thinks is an evil lying cheater... how strange!

my ex was a serious pill. the jealousy and accusations i was on the receiving end of, sometimes daily, were a major stress in my life, our relationship, and similarly, i often felt like if only that went away wed be great.

please understand that i get where you are coming from on this.

but similarly, the quote above reflects an attitude that your partner is fundamentally broken, and if only she werent, everything would be great. its the message you are communicating to her. is that a fantasy? unrealistic? a rehabilitative approach? or is it a black and white take on something that may be more complex.

i did a lot of things that made things worse between my ex and me. i didnt realize it at the time. i certainly did my best. and on one hand, her and i were not meant to be, regardless. on the other, i could have handled things far more constructively. i learned those things after we broke up.

when it comes to the circumstances, and some of the exchanges between you and your wife, im not sure that this is the most rehabilitative approach. at the same time, i dont want to push you too hard, or in any direction you arent comfortable with. are you good with how things are right now? do you want to discuss alternative approaches?

[udontexist]

when it comes to the circumstances, and some of the exchanges between you and your wife, im not sure that this is the most rehabilitative approach. at the same time, i dont want to push you too hard, or in any direction you arent comfortable with. are you good with how things are right now? do you want to discuss alternative approaches?

My friend, if there is a better approach, I'm all ears.

I've tried every strategy so far that I could think of, that I've read about, that friends have suggested. At this point, yes, I think she is simply broken and the fact that she thinks she's not broken, is the main issue.

So, I ask you, how can I effectively communicate her this simple truth: Nobody wants to be in a "relationship" with someone who does not trust them.

Or, do you think I'm wrong, and that I could perhaps have some sort of good relationship with her with zero trust?

Oh and btw, it's when she's only a little bit untrusting that she calls me a cheater. The worst is when she accuses me of being a child predator (her reason? because when we were at dinner with my sister and my niece, I did not look my niece in the eyes while she was misbehaving).

She has gotten physical (pushing & biting) and I called the cops and she went to jail for that some months back. I think that when she's super deep into her delusions she feels that the world would be better off without me and it's her job to make sure I am either dead or in jail (actually, she's said this, so it's not just my thinking).

I could have called the cops again on other occasions afterward but I figure she's smart enough to flip the situation around if she wants to and so there's no point.

[once removed]

So, I ask you, how can I effectively communicate her this simple truth: Nobody wants to be in a "relationship" with someone who does not trust them.

Or, do you think I'm wrong, and that I could perhaps have some sort of good relationship with her with zero trust?

a "bpd relationship" means an inherent lack of trust.

it is something that will always be an obstacle in your relationship. it is something that you should face with wide open eyes and a clear mind, and make no bones about. if its something that you cant cope with, there is no shame in that; i couldnt.

but it is something that can improve.

people with bpd and bpd traits thrive when they have a solid rock in their lives. unfortunately, they tend to test, most, the people that they look to as that solid rock. and often, we send the wrong message in response to those tests. for example, maybe we reinforce certain bad behavior. or maybe we show that we arent trustworthy. there are lots of things.

So, I ask you, how can I effectively communicate her this simple truth: Nobody wants to be in a "relationship" with someone who does not trust them.

if someone communicated that to you, would you trust them? would that message help you to trust them?

thats, in part, what i mean by a rehabilitative approach.

[udontexist]

a "bpd relationship" means an inherent lack of trust.

it is something that will always be an obstacle in your relationship. it is something that you should face with wide open eyes and a clear mind, and make no bones about. if its something that you cant cope with, there is no shame in that; i couldnt.

but it is something that can improve.

Definitely it CAN improve. But, after over a year, it has NOT improved. I would argue that this will only improve if she gets serious about going to the right therapist and doing the work on herself. As of now, in her moments of lucidity she tells me, "Just give me time. I just need to meditate." I've tried that. I've given her time to meditate. Her meditations just cause her to be more delusional. So that's a total waste of time if you ask me.

people with bpd and bpd traits thrive when they have a solid rock in their lives. unfortunately, they tend to test, most, the people that they look to as that solid rock. and often, we send the wrong message in response to those tests. for example, maybe we reinforce certain bad behavior. or maybe we show that we arent trustworthy. there are lots of things.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. This is why I'm not going to be her rock over here while she does the same thing repeatedly going nowhere fast. I'm here to help her IF she wants to get help. I told her that. She so far does not want help, but that's her choice.

if someone communicated that to you, would you trust them? would that message help you to trust them?

thats, in part, what i mean by a rehabilitative approach.

No, this is not relevant. I'm not trying to get her to trust me anymore. I've tried that for a year. I've been faithful and honest for a year. It has not helped. Why has it not? Because she's delusional. That means, no matter what I do, she sees that I'm doing the opposite. I'm honest? Nope, I apparently lie about EVERYTHING (no evidence tho). I'm faithful? Only because I'm a really good cheater who knows how to hide things. So, if you can explain how I can gain her trust by (in her eyes) lying and cheating, and generally just being evil, then please, enlighten me!

If she weren't delusional, and it were just that she had difficulty trusting, then absolutely I would be patient and continue to show her how trustworthy I am, that would make perfect sense. But alas, this is not the case. With each day that I do nothing, I actually make things worse by doing things in her mind that are horrific.

 This is something she has to get therapy for. There's real therapy that really fixes this, and if she doesn't want to fix herself, then she will not be with me, and probably not with anyone else either.

[udontexist]

So, we've been separated for about a month now.

At first it was very difficult on me emotionally, and of course I'm sure on her as well.

At this point, all I can say is I know that I made the right choice.

I feel so much healthier now that I'm not in this toxic relationship. At the same time, I'm not interested in finding someone else. I honestly do believe that my wife and I will be a good couple one day after she gets over her BPD. Until then, there's no possibility for a healthy relationship.

[once removed]

udontexist,

are you out of this relationship, or planning on one day being a good couple?

the support youre going to receive really depends on where you want to go with the relationship.

[udontexist]

Well, I'm "out" now in the sense that we don't see each other, we barely talk, and whatnot, altho we aren't legally divorced yet.
I'm not planning on any relationship. But I do for sure see the possibility that we could one day be a couple.
I do plan on going to a therapist myself starting when I get health insurance in January so that I can make sure I am using "wise mind" more often.