Wife and D14 went against covid restrictions and took my Mom out in town

[formflier]

   The way that a community moves on from an infectious disease that is spread through casual contact is through herd immunity.  

I agree this is likely and normally what happens. 

Is it wise to assume this one will progress like all the others? 

What happens if it start mutating?  Will those that were immune to the "original" be somewhat bolstered?  We simply don't know, although we can make reasonable assumptions based on prior experience.

For the record I don't like the word "control" because I don't think we can "control" this...I do think we can "influence" the spread.

There is a chance that history will look back on this as an overreaction and there is a chance we look back on it and wished we did more.  It appears "leadership" is leaning towards being "too conservative" if they are going to make a mistake.

All that being said...we won't know until well into the future and looking back on all this.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

My last post on this matter, as this isn't a political discussion forum.  I do plenty of talking on those.     .  Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss further.  I only brought this up, as it is easy to look at the pwBPD and think they are acting "crazy" when they may actually be acting more rationally than you thought.

What if herd immunity is impossible?  That would suck, but it wouldn't really change things.  We still have to leave our homes, do our jobs, and build our economies.  The shutdown orders would have been shown to be useless, only delaying the inevitable.  But anyway, normally you get a disease once, recover, and are immune.  It would be better to bet on trends, than on the exceptions, since we are all operating due to a lack of knowledge.  As for mutation, certainly a risk (a great argument to get herd immunity fast so it has less time to mutate), although what I have read is that the mutations are more likely to be prevented from prior infections than some other diseases.  That isn't a guarantee, but a little reason for hope.

[empath]

FF, how much contact with others did your mom have on this trip? And...  where was FFw that she couldn't be reached?

I understand the extra caution that comes with loving people who are in high-risk categories. My gd2 is high-risk, and my doctors tell me that I am. That being said, a couple of weeks ago, my d23 needed a ride home from work because her car broke down. I agreed to help her - I went and picked her up from work and drove her home. She was the only person that I was in contact with.

[Notwendy]

Fian-
I understand that people have different opinions on this situation, and I think this is an important point- we are all individuals with our own opinions.

I think this can also apply to spouses, but with spouses, or anyone living together sharing space- we also have to be able to communicate our opinions and arrive at some kind of agreement. One person might like to do the dishes right away. The other might like to do them later. Either way they get done, but if one person's preference is irritating to the other, then they need to be able to sit down together and arrive at an agreement. And they also have to keep the agreement. Keeping these agreements builds trust, and breaking them diminishes trust.

With spouses this has to happen with more difficult situations such as money, child care, household chores.

FF's situation is that this process breaks down. I don't think that's unusual with BPD. Difficulties with processing emotions and impulsiveness, feeling like a victim- make communication difficult, and agreements get broken.

It doesn't matter what the topic of the issue it. Maybe it's money, or visiting family, or having guests over. FF feels one way, FFW may feel differently. To FF, it seems they have an agreement, but the wife does something different.

Somewhere, something breaks down. Is it in the communication? Is it with his wife? Is it with the structure- because if FF is the appointed "head" or decision maker, and the wife has to obey, if she feels differently, then she might have little recourse but to just do her own thing regardless. Or she doesn't realize they have an agreement in the first place. Or it's passive agressiveness, where people who don't feel they have control, or choice, say yes, but then do something differently. These are just ideas.

So let's say wife isn't acting irrationally. She's in line with your opinion and thinks the restrictions are overly strict. FF feels they are not. This boils down to two people having different opinions. Honestly, that's OK for two people to disagree in general but also they need to have the ability to come to an agreement on important issues. Enmeshement is the idea that my partner needs to be feeling the same as me. If we have good boundaries, we know that we are not the same.

Each can present their own case of how their opinion is correct- just like we different posters have done so here.

But in FF's case, it's not just FFw making her own choice. She did this with his mother, and that's upsetting to him. Now, we have three people involved and that's fertile ground for the drama triangle. While we might strive for herd immunity, there are two vulnerable people involved- the 81 year old mother, and the daughter with asthma. They may need different restrictions due to their conditions. It can be concluded that this is concerning to FF.

FFW and the 14 year old D are at lower risk. But this is all we know with an unknown situation. Then, we have the mother, and she has her own free will and doesn't want the restrictions. That's her choice, but what about the daughter with asthma? She's an adult too.

Without going into the right/wrong aspects of this, somehow there needs to be an agreement. Either FFW goes to his side with the understanding that exposing his mother makes him feel uncomfortable, (whether this is right or wrong )and agrees to his restrictions. Or FF has to let go of his wishes and accept that his wife's way is how it will be.

This now isn't about Covid- but the relationship dynamics. And 4 separate people with different opinions and their own free will.

81 mother needs to make her own decisions about what risks she wants to take.

The daughter with asthma also can decide which household to live in with the lower risk. None of us can have zero risk unless we live alone and have things delivered. Some people are essential workers, and they have families. That household can not be completely separated from the outside world, . Also, being in shut down isn't workable for the long run, so we have to assume some risk to returning to some daily activities at some point. The actual risks aren't well known at the moment. So this isn't a right/wrong decision as much as weighing risks, and FF's risk comfort level is different than his wife's.

FFW can make her own decisions, and so can FF, but since they are married and live in the same home, this leads to conflict. Their task is to arrive at an agreement, but since the wife has a pattern of breaking them, this causes marital conflict.

Covid-19 is the new situation where this marital pattern is seen.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Just wanted to pop on and say sorry you’re dealing with this. As you know, I don’t have any answers  .

While I think this situation could play out on many different topics, I believe it is more serious with covid. I don’t want to prolong the discussion on herd immunity, vaccine timelines, possible treatments, reinfection, asymptomatic carriers — everyone is well-versed on the current issues and can speculate based on history, but truly no guarantee — but is there ever really in life?

This rings slightly to the hypocrisy I was frustrated in my relationship last week. Wouldn’t risk her parents safety vs proactively risking FF’s mom. Who made FF mom feel there was little risk?  FFw? News?

Whether this was intentional, poor judgment or even that she thought your mom might be feeling cooped up and was being nice, I have no idea.

But, imho, it was discussed and agreed to. It goes further than breaking that commitment.

Say FFw picks up mom and takes her for a drive. She opens the door for her but unbeknownst to her, the ups driver touched same door handle an hour before when he bent over to tie his shoe or catch himself from falling. Far fetched, yes. There are hazards at stores and gas stations and banks. Money and credit cards we use without thinking. Estimates are that 25% are asymptomatic so potential to get exposed without realizing remains very high.

And, they started by  saying children weren’t carriers and were “less sick” if they did get it BUT two months later we're seeing a lot of kids getting a very serious Kawasaki-like disease. That’s scary.

Again, my point is not to debate covid, but to recognize the reason many families have agreed upon strategies to deal for their family. When that is broken, it’s not just a simple I didn’t really see anyone. What if she tickled her nose after touching the door handle, became infected but was asymptomatic but daughter with asthma had a much more difficult time?

We stay home mostly and do deliveries (bless those UPS drivers!) and still have a process we follow for bringing anything into the house. It is NOT fun, a lot of work, but as much as I’d like to get herd immunity and get it myself so I could (possibly) be done, the risks are too great. I could get really sick, I could make my H or kiddos sick and they may have a bad reaction.

If you’re okay with personal consequences, great.  But, when one family member changes course, it impacts everyone else in the family. Maybe you have to have a quarantine zone if she goes out again.

Definitely need to have a conversation with mom.  She can do what she wants, acknowledges that she understands AND understands that while she can make her own choices, you will respond by keeping your family safe. Risk is she won’t tell you when she does go out.

Just sharing my thoughts. Not sure a great takeaway.

[Fian]

Notwendy, you made a lot of great points in your post, and I find myself agreeing with what you posted.  A couple of thoughts:

1.  I can easily see wife going around husband because she disagrees with him, but doesn't feel that she has the power to disagree with him.  It could be the male authority dynamic, or the fact that he is just a good debater that she feels she always loses.  He wins the debate, but doesn't truly convince her.  So she agrees, and then does what she wants behind his back.  If this is the dynamic, is there anything that FF can do to have a truly meaningful conversation with her where he can actually get an honest answer from her?
2.  His mom is a different situation.  She doesn't have to listen to what FF says, and he is now thinking about trying to force her to do things his way through use of grandkids, etc, if I am understanding things correctly.  In my opinion, this is taking things too far.  If he can't convince her, he needs to respect her decision to take risks.
3.  The assumption seems to be that he needs to preserve his mom's life and take large measures to protect her.  But is this what she wants?  Her husband has died, and she may feel that it is time for her to leave this earth.  As you get older, death often becomes a lot less scary.  You have had your fill of life, and are ready to move on to the next phase.  If this is the case, I can easily see this as a conversation that she would not want to have with her son, as it is a message that a son cannot bear to hear.

[Cat Familiar]

It goes beyond protecting his mother. His married adult daughter has moved back home because she is at risk due to asthma and her husband has a job with a lot of people contact.

Therefore all family members living in FF’s household are taking precautions seriously, so that this young woman won’t be put in harm’s way.

Undoubtedly she’d like to live with her husband as they are newlyweds. Because they are concerned with her health, she and her husband are making sacrifices.

Her safety is contingent upon everyone she comes in contact with following the rules. If grandma doesn’t want to play it safe, then she shouldn’t have access to the other grandkids, unless at a considerable distance.

[I Am Redeemed]

I agree, Cat. It's one thing to retain the right to take risks or make decisions concerning one's own life. It's quite another to make choices that could negatively impact another person, and this is where boundaries come in.

[Notwendy]

So, how do we come up with some kind of solution to the situation. We can not control other people- they will do what they do. Unless it's illegal, we can't arrest them.

How will the safety of the adult daughter and mother be addressed? They have their own free will. Mother will do what she's going to do.

Adult daughter needs to choose if it's safer for her to be with grandmother or at FF's house or her house.

There really isn't a perfect way to do this. Some households have family members who are essential workers and need to go out. They take a higher risk, and that puts the household at higher risk.

People in the same household might be different in their levels of risk taking with this. In this case, the only way the other person in the house can take more preventative measures would be to move out on their own. This isn't realistic for many people.

I agree that putting others at risk for one's own issues is being self centered, but people do that- all we can do is decide what we are able to do.

This isn't just with Covid-19 for FF. There's a pattern of wife breaking disagreements. How to address this issue? I'm not minimizing the seriousness of Covid-19, but this is the latest issue for a longer term pattern to happen. How to address the dynamics of the pattern?

[Fian]

I think a thought experiment might help understand the other person's point of view.  Let's go back to pre-covid-19 days.  While there may not be covid-19, there are certainly other diseases out there that can kill you.  Seasonal Flu kills something like 75k each year in the US if I am remembering correctly.  For a hypochondriac, that might be enough for them to want to take the measures that are being taken down.  Social distancing, wear masks, avoid contact with people.  If your mother was in that condition, you might agree to take some measures in her presence like standing 6ft away and wearing a mask, but what if she also insisted that you isolate yourself and do those measures when you weren't with her?  You would probably just say no, unless she had something that you needed like money (or grandkids...).  If that was the case, you would be inclined to say what you had to in order get what you needed, but when she wasn't around, you would probably tend to violate the agreement.  Sort of like what your mother did to you...

Back to covid-19, you are more afraid of the disease than those around you, it appears.  You are finding that to feel safe, you must impose your will on others, and are rightly seeing that as problematic.  I think the best you can do is look at some compromises like wearing masks and social distancing in the house, performing extra cleaning as needed.  It doesn't guarantee 100% safety, but that is the nature of the disease - we aren't in control.

As for your wife breaking agreements, you might want to change the power dynamics and see what happens.  She is probably breaking the agreements, because she doesn't truly agree, but doesn't feel she has the power to challenge you directly.  So, maybe try the conversation in the opposite direction.  Start with what she feels is needed in the situation and what the ideal solution looks like to her.  Then suggest a couple of compromises that makes you feel a little safer.  It may not look anything like what you want, but you may get an agreement that she will actually adhere.

[formflier]

To be clear with the agreement thing, I've done all that in the past. Not doing it again.

I can't count the number of agreements that have been engineered 100% by my wife, no compromise whatsoever that I've signed onto and she has abrogated.

My guess is that some short term feeling happens and "poof". 

There are times of genuine remorse (apparently) and times where she claims there was never an agreement even though it's objectively provable with documentation entirely created by her, yet she would claim there was no "agreement"

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Her safety is contingent upon everyone she comes in contact with following the rules. If grandma doesn’t want to play it safe, then she shouldn’t have access to the other grandkids, unless at a considerable distance.

This is the crux of the issue.

We have a "tight ship".  There is one "loose end" and that's my Mom. 

I suspect now that school is over and we can spend more time with her that her loneliness will get better and she won't do "jail breaks".

But...we'll see.

I'm not going to compromise my daughters safety, especially when they (her husband and she) have gone to such lengths to protect it.

Best,

FF