D9 Emotional About Joint Custody

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Our daughter turns 10 in about 2 months. Her mom left our home 8 years ago almost to the week. S12 had just turned 4. He's been OK, and his Aspie Power is that rules and routine need to be followed.

Two weeks ago, D9 was sad that she didn't see either parent for a week at a time. We had switched from the 3-2-2-3 (3s being Friday through Monday morning) mid last year and the kids seemed OK with it. Our solution was to do a Wednesday switch on the other parent's week. Our son didn't want to do it, but he didn't protest too much.

This is my week and the Wednesday switch, the 2nd one. Last week on mom's time went well. D started crying this morning, but wanting to go to her mom's (she mentioned it last night with no crying). She stopped crying, mostly, when I pulled up to school to drop her off. It was a struggle to get her to get ready for school.

Tonight, they pulled over and called me after mommy picked them up from after school. D was crying. I had thought about warning their mom but let it go to see. D told her mom that I was getting older and she wanted to spend more time with me. Last night, D told me that she felt that she had a stronger connection with me (I didn't know what to say to that).

My ex, on speakerphone, volunteered that she got mad at our daughter last weekend for moving her stuff. She called D inside from playing and had her put things back. She said that she got mad enough that she slammed a stool against the floor but didn't touch our daughter. D cried and went to her room. Her mom apologized later. I've heard similar stories over the years and I think that similar explosive anger incidents happen more often that I don't hear about. Mommy hasn't targeted S12 recently that I've heard about.

I'm not sure that this is "the thing" this time, or if it's almost tween girl emotions. She asked this morning why we didn't get back together or if mommy couldn't move closer. She asked again tonight on speakerphone. The other home is less than 15 minutes away by car. She's been periodically asking why we can't get back together, and from what I read, this desire of kids often goes on for years.

Not to minimize her feelings (and I love my baby!) But this clinginess concerns me and I'm not sure what to do with it. She has an appointment with her Psych in a few weeks and I'll shoot her a message that we want to explore this next session. Mommy missed the last in-person and then the last video session, and her mom is the one that requested D go back into therapy when she was having concerning issues with our daughter.

When I was 12, my dBPD mother took me to family therapy, then abandoned me to get "fixed." My ex did that in our r/s (before kids, I was not courageous enough to tell her to pound sand and leave), and the same at the end when she left me for her young stud cum husband, then divorced him.

One for thing is that my ex volunteers possible causes, because I listen without judgement.

[Turkish]

Our daughter turns 10 in about 2 months. Her mom left our home 8 years ago almost to the week. S12 had just turned 4. He's been OK, and his Aspie Power is that rules and routine need to be followed.

Two weeks ago, D9 was sad that she didn't see either parent for a week at a time. We had switched from the 3-2-2-3 (3s being Friday through Monday morning) mid last year and the kids seemed OK with it. Our solution was to do a Wednesday switch on the other parent's week. Our son didn't want to do it, but he didn't protest too much.

This is my week and the Wednesday switch, the 2nd one. Last week on mom's time went well. D started crying this morning, but wanting to go to her mom's (she mentioned it last night with no crying). She stopped crying, mostly, when I pulled up to school to drop her off. It was a struggle to get her to get ready for school.

Tonight, they pulled over and called me after mommy picked them up from after school. D was crying. I had thought about warning their mom but let it go to see. D told her mom that I was getting older and she wanted to spend more time with me. Last night, D told me that she felt that she had a stronger connection with me (I didn't know what to say to that).

My ex, on speakerphone, volunteered that she got mad at our daughter last weekend for moving her stuff. She called D inside from playing and had her put things back. She said that she got mad enough that she slammed a stool against the floor but didn't touch our daughter. D cried and went to her room. Her mom apologized later. I've heard similar stories over the years and I think that similar explosive anger incidents happen more often that I don't hear about. Mommy hasn't targeted S12 recently that I've heard about.

I'm not sure that this is "the thing" this time, or if it's almost tween girl emotions. She asked this morning why we didn't get back together or if mommy couldn't move closer. She asked again tonight on speakerphone. The other home is less than 15 minutes away by car. She's been periodically asking why we can't get back together, and from what I read, this desire of kids often goes on for years.

Not to minimize her feelings (and I love my baby!) But this clinginess concerns me and I'm not sure what to do with it. She has an appointment with her Psych in a few weeks and I'll shoot her a message that we want to explore this next session. Mommy missed the last in-person and then the last video session, and her mom is the one that requested D go back into therapy when she was having concerning issues with our daughter.

When I was 12, my dBPD mother took me to family therapy, then abandoned me to get "fixed." My ex did that in our r/s (before kids, I was not courageous enough to tell her to pound sand and leave), and the same at the end when she left me for her young stud cum husband, then divorced him.

One for thing is that my ex volunteers possible causes, because I listen without judgement.

[zaqsert]

Sorry to hear your daughter is having a hard time with it right now.

It's good that she already has an appointment with her therapist, even if it's a few weeks away.

It sounds like nothing significant changed that would cause this, so it's probably hard to say what's behind it.

Meanwhile, the main thing that comes to mind is continue to listen to D and help validate her feelings. It's great that she feels a strong connection with you, so she's more likely to feel comfortable sharing things with you.

[Turkish]

Thanks zaqsert

The kids will be with me in a week for 8 days into mom's week when she travels to go across country for her friend's wedding.

We're doing a semi-local staycation into the mountains. I hope it helps.

[zaqsert]

That's great. Enjoy the 8 days with your kids, Turkish!

[ForeverDad]

A month ago [August] my ex called me, sobbing that she dreaded weekends with the kids, because of fighting with our D9. We had a video session with a therapist. D9 was with me and I convinced her to come out of her room to join but she refused to face the camera "it's stupid!"

That week, we decided to switch from 3-2-2-3 (3s are Friday through Monday mornings) to week to week with her and S11. Things seemed to get better with Mommy and daughter. No more screaming fits. And D9 told me today that mommy pulled her hair a few months ago when D9 and her brother were fighting...

Two weeks ago, D9 was sad that she didn't see either parent for a week at a time. We had switched from the 3-2-2-3 (3s being Friday through Monday morning) mid last year and the kids seemed OK with it. Our solution was to do a Wednesday switch on the other parent's week. Our son didn't want to do it, but he didn't protest too much.

This is my week and the Wednesday switch, the 2nd one. Last week on mom's time went well. D started crying this morning, but wanting to go to her mom's (she mentioned it last night with no crying)...

Tonight, they pulled over and called me after mommy picked them up from after school. D was crying. I had thought about warning their mom but let it go to see. D told her mom that I was getting older and she wanted to spend more time with me. Last night, D told me that she felt that she had a stronger connection with me (I didn't know what to say to that).

The change in schedule jumps out to me as a factor here.  I recall my Custody Evaluator stating that the split week schedule is better for children 10 and under.  As children get older they do better with a home base in one parent's home.  So age does make a difference shifting from equal time to majority time with one parent.

I did get custody of my son when he was about D9 almost D10 age.  Then just before he was 12 I got majority time during the school year but not summers.  My divorce lawyer voiced this after the last change:

My ex had temp custody during our separation and divorce, over two years.  The divorce final decree raised me to equal time.  The Custody evaluator recommended spitting the week so we used a 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5) schedule where one of us had Mon-Tue overnights, the other had Wed-Thu overnights and the three overnight weekend was alternated.  He stated younger children (under ten) do better with the shorter visits.  Years later when I told my lawyer I wanted fewer (high conflict) exchanges and was pondering a change to alternate weeks, he asked, "Do you want court to think your son will do better with longer visits with his mother?"

Let me be clear, alternate weeks is not bad, hopefully it will succeed in your situation.  I was just explaining how my schedules worked out.

This requires a change of perspective.  How so?  What if your ex later seeks to get majority time and cites all the times you've praised her?  Frankly, society thinks that is normal if a mother gets majority time.  (I will post what happened to me below to illustrate my point.)  If you are always thinking and saying, "She is a great mother" then you are weakening your own position.  Well, unless she says you're a great father... does she?

Hmm, I'm not saying the only choice is to return to split weeks.  For all you know the kids may get accustomed to the new schedule.  Note I say accustomed, not preferred.  I took notice that your daughter said she wanted more time with you.  Above I noted that she's getting close to the age to want a home base with one parent.  What's that old saying, Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?  (A horse's teeth reveals the age and typical value of the horse.  Most gifts have value, you get to judge the value.)  Your daughter is Gifting you basis to shift from equal time to majority time.  Since you have a somewhat loose custody arrangement (Is it a court order?) you may choose to begin seeking ways to slowly get or accept more and more parenting time and let their mother find a new level of parenting that is more in her comfort zone.  Ex already revealed weekends are hard for her, right?

For example, if ex goes on trips, gladly accept the extra time, don't be the first to offer make-up time.  In fact, you don't have to agree to a trade unless it will make your life difficult at another time when the situation is reversed.

[Turkish]

Unlike in he beginning, I'm not for gifting make-up time. You were one of the people who schooled me 

There is a court order. We all agreed to go week to week. S12 likes it.

Tonight I picked up S12 first and asked him if he saw the argument between his sister and mom. He said no. He was outside. We picked up D9 and I asked her about it. She said that she felt that mommy was going to hit her with the stool at first and her brother interjected, "no she wasn't!" I reminded him that he was outside.

Then D said, "that's why I need therapy because I feel threatened by my mom." Yikes.

D is a Spitfire. I've already thought that a future teenage D might show up at my house from an Uber after and her mom got into a physical fight...

A few months ago, I was an the verge of asking their mom if she felt that D9 might feel better spending more weekend time with me. S12 wouldn't like that. I'm not a fan of splitting the kids though mommy-son time and daddy-daughter time (what younger people call "dates" a term which I refuse to use) was suggested. That's only a band aid though.

[formflier]

 
On first read through this thread, I'm actually more interested in your son's reaction.

I feel like I "know" your daughter more.."spitfire" or "spirited" is a vibe I've gotten for a long time.  So..no shock there is "clash" with a high strung parent...and one that likely over personalizes things.

No surprise there.

What's up with your son assuming or being cast into the role (and playing it) as the "defender" or "advocate" for Mommy?

Has he been loose with the truth before?

Did his reaction to all this surprise you?

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

I think his Aspie tendencies like structure and resist change. He follows the book so to speak.

Is concerning that she whacked them with a flip flop a few months ago, but I don't think this is habitual, despite violating the order (and California law, no hitting with objects). Unless things get it of hand, I'm not inclined to make waves. She already gives me grief about the home not being clean to her standards, and the dog (like Lucy with snoopy, "dog germs!").

[Notwendy]

Does your wife prefer your son? My BPD mother prefers a sibling- this was evident to me even at about age 10. This had an impact on me, I was sad about it- but if I said anything to her she would tell me it was "sibling rivalry".

It's hard to describe our relationship when I was a teen. Her behavior was extreme- and yet, I was expected to behave properly and also obey her- and it was hard to make sense of that. She also began to confide in me- over share information about the issues between her and my father. I also was useful to her- could do things around the house. But there wasn't much caring or affection on her part.

Between the two of them, it was my father who acted as a parent to me- that was a child-parent bond. My parents stayed together but if they hadn't- I know I would have wanted to stay with my father and not my mother.

I know you don't want to triangulate, and I agree that it's good for children to have contact with both parents. I also know there's a lot going on emotionally with teens. My BPD mother explained our strained relationship as that "teen age" behavior, but didn't account for the contribution of her behavior.

But having been a parent of teens, it's sometimes challenging emotionally. It may be that your ex could manage younger children but if she herself has emotional regulation difficulty, the combination of that along with teen age mood swings may be more of a challenge.

If I did say anything about my mother, the response was mostly invalidating. Kids are not supposed to say these things about their mothers.

Children naturally love their parents- even abusive ones. However, the nature of a relationship is like any other relationship- and if someone is disordered, their relationships will be as well. One could say that my child-parent bond was stronger with my father because- he was a parent to me. His behavior was more consistent. I was more secure with him.

It's good that your D has a counselor. I'd see what their recommendation is. As Forever Dad said, it may be that it's better for you to have more than 50%.

Also with FF- your son may not express his feelings as much as your D, but if there's disordered behavior it may be better for both kids to have one home with you and visitation with their mother. Also don't divide them in separate households.

[Turkish]

I not sure if their mom has a preference between the kids though she gets along easier with our son. His order of preference: the dog, me, his mom, his sister.

I think it would have to get a lot worse to suggest I get more time, especially not breaking the kids up. I do not think that she would handle the kids well with more time. She uses her "mommy time" to cope by hiking, traveling, reading self-help books and instagramming. She makes coaching videos, some of them like Stuart Smalley, IMO. Weird, but if that helps her cope...

She does accuse me of paying too much attention to D9 at the expense of our son.

[Notwendy]

Do you think it's true - that you pay more attention to your D?

Sometimes it can't be helped- if your son isn't as social, he won't engage you as much. Kids are different and don't all have the same needs. The goal is to try to meet each child's needs as much as possible.

It's good you are there as a support for your D when she does get emotional.

[Turkish]

I'm not sure. S12 is easy. He'll fold his laundry or mow the lawn and the like with no attitude. It's like pulling teeth with D9. I also never had a father, so I'm supposed to be a little tougher on him?

Is it normal for children to give massages? D9 has rubbed my neck and back twice, unsolicited, and it feels odd. I'm physically affectionate with both. S12 will still lean on me on the couch watching a movie, e.g. I cuddle them both at bedtime. Yesterday, their mom posted on Facebook millenials D9 giving her a neck and shoulder rub, "my children know my love language." Seems creepy, but what do I know?

[GaGrl]

Your upbringing might be making you uncomfortable with physical affection, Turkish. I'm sure there is a middle ground.

[ForeverDad]

I too had that fear that some day my ex might blow some innocent contact all out of proportion.  What a shame because it's the kids who loose out due to fear-trauma limited parenting.

[Notwendy]

I can understand the confusion when not having a parental role model yourself. While you didn't physically have a father, you also didn't have a "normal" role model for a mother. That doesn't mean you are a bad parent- not at all. You have all it takes - love, compassion, empathy- to be the more stable parent for your children. For me, not having a "normal" role model for a mother meant I looked to other role models- my father's relatives, my friends for reference.

You may want to consider parenting classes- just for your own peace of mind and support. I was fearful of disciplining - because to upset my mother was a scary situation, but then I learned that loving discipline isn't the same thing and kids need those boundaries. Chores are good and if your kids need to pitch in with laundry and the lawn- great. Kids have different temperaments too- seems your son is easier to deal with but kids can be different.

No, I don't think you don't have to be tougher on boys. I think that's a cultural influence that isn't helpful. Kids need love and consistency- boys or girls. In addition, not all children have both male and female parents but they are loved regardless. Just be yourself with both of them.

I think physical affection can get a bit awkward at puberty. The kids are still mentally kids and want to snuggle and yet, they are changing. I think paying attention to natural boundaries is important. That may be an issue with their mother. If their boundaries are being broken through- and not just physical- they may have trouble tuning in to their own boundaries. This "giving mom a neck rub" feels creepy to me because she may be enlisting them as emotional caregivers- they somehow need to give her a rub? Personally, I have not ever asked my kids to do that.

Kids have their own comfort levels. There came a point where they didn't want to be as affectionate. I have one kid who loves to have a neck rub, the other hates them. There's also a gender difference in terms of how much physical contact is OK. Seems that mother-daughter affection is more tolerated in our culture than mother-son, father-daughter.

I think you need to be respectful of your own feelings. If a neck rub feels creepy to you, maybe say "no thank you, I'd rather have a hug" and then give an appropriate hug. Or "I'd rather watch a movie together" as time spent together is valuable. Also respect their natural boundaries. The transition from wanting to cuddle and be with parents all the time was gradual- the doors were shut when changing clothes, they wanted to hang out with friends more. But there are still ways to show affection to them.

[formflier]

I'm probably low on the physical affection side of things...as far as it "coming naturally" to me.

So it's something I actively think about that I need to hug, or touch or snuggle with my kids and wife.

I like the suggestion about "I'd rather (fill in the blank)" when you feel weird.  Might also want to add some praise and thanks in there..."thanks so much for being kind to me with a neck rub...I would prefer to snuggle and watch a movie together.  How does that sound?"

Something like that.

Good thread...really important stuff to think through.  Has me thinking about how I interact with my kids.

Best,

FF