Tough topic, not being able to connect

[PDQuick]

I haven't posted alot of heartfelt emotional turmoil lately, but in light of some things that have come out lately, I feel the need to lead the way and bear myself here, hoping to have a unique discussion.

This one is somewhat tough for me to talk about. I seem to have a problem connecting to a woman who is close enough to affect my life in any type of substantial way. Let me try to explain.

Ive been out of my disordered relationship now for 3 years next month. I have met some truly wonderful ladies in these 3 years, and have dated a few of them. Some of them live close to me, some are friends from different venues of my life and live in other places in the country. I have dated 3 ladies on a somewhat serious level, and several on a friendship level.

Here is my honest assessment of them. The further away you live, it seems the closer I will let you in to me, and the closer you are to me, geographically, the lessor chance you will have of seeing me. Its a flip-flopped sliding scale of what I think it should be.

What I am starting to believe is that this experience has affected me more than I truly realize, and accept. Because of my job, and my recreational hobby of playing music, I meet many women, whom, 16 years ago, I would have jumped at. Now, I am just as content to stay home and clip my toenails, as I am to venture out with any of them.

Case in point, I was recently broken up with by a lady, who I think is a pretty lady, and she seems to have her head on straight. We went out to a few lunches, and watched a Cowboy game together. During the game, I all but ignored her, not because I wasn't interested, but because I just wasn't "into" her. That's the problem, by all indications, and knowing myself, I should have been "into" her. She is attractive to me, but I just didn't feel comfortable, or much like myself, when around her. There was something there, a wall perhaps.

Could it be depression? Could it be a fear? Could it be that even after 3 years, that I'm not ready? Why is it that my heart desires a close bond with a special woman, but when confronted with the opportunity, I'd rather just take out the trash, and worry about what the ant crawling across the floor is really thinking. This isn't me, the me that I have known for 38 years.

[elphaba]

I'm right there with you on this one Quick.

I seem to have little or no motivation to get out there and find that connection.  I've not really dated at all in the last 3 years, which is kinda sad...but, I'm not really sad about it.

The whole prospect of dating, is...meh...just not enticing. 

I think part of your issue may be that the further away someone may be physically/geographically, the easier it is to let them in because there is a safe distance.  Whether we have that physical distance or we are just keeping an emotional distance, it is a form of somehow protecting ourselves.

As much as some of us think we have healed alot of our wounds...we may still have some healing to do. We were HURT, very badly in alot of cases...taken by surprise by an illness that so insidiously permeated every part of our being.  The person we loved and trusted turned on us and no matter how much we tried or loved them, it just didn't matter.  That has a profound effect, to think that our love, or love itself, just doesn't matter. 

I know for me, I lost so much of myself in my relationship with DB, parts of me I'm not sure I can even get back.  So, then where do I go with that?  I keep a safe distance from even friends, I'm not willing to give of myself as much as I once was, maybe cause there is less of me to give.  I'm generally happy, have my creative stuff to keep me busy, my kids and granddaughter...but, I hold back in so many ways...  from everyone else.

So, I don't have the answers, just similar questions...but, know you're not alone in this

[TonyC]

wow this is like old times huh...

havent been this close to you pdq for some time... for you new comers thats story you will have to dig for..

pdq .. im the same as you.. thats why i went away form the site.. thinking part of me was still in due to my daily reminicing( think i punished that word. skip wheres the spell checker..)

so any way like you pdq i dont know where im at...since i left the site..;i continued my reighn of terror.her in ny.. dated , dated dated dated,,

even forgot named of who i was dating... it got that bad...

i tried the realtionship thing.. couple of times..i agreed to be exclusive.. (yea right) no i did. really..but then i hear things.. like love you, or we need to go away together., or my mom wants to meet you..

i am done... they got to close ,

i bail...and move on.. to the next..and the next  and the next..

ive dated models, accountants, exuctives , laywers,, bartenders.., woman too young women too old.

ive earned a title manhore..at work...but its not waht i want..

i want to go home to someone everynight..,wake up next to someone...in the morning..

i want to miss some one , cause they went to work...

i got out of miserabe..

to sit in a waiting room...with a sign on me that says..i am looking for some one to love..

do get me wrong.. i still listen to guys that say tony i want to be you for a day...

and i giver them the same answer..

no you dont..

so pdq i feel ya...

and i dont know what it is...but as usual  you are me and i am you..

this is one of the reason.i stayed away...i ponder maybe i should have just kiccked her out every couple of months , then took her back..

ok that was a 2 second thougt

pdq... i dont know..i think deep down.. there is a piece of them left inside...and we dont know it..

love ya brother

tony

[PDQuick]

Thanks Sister Elphie, and my brother Tony. Its good to see you back Bro.

Here's the deal, I see it on the boards, and I wanted to bring it up. It affects more of us than you think. Thanks for the courage, I expect more will be chiming in soon, I hope.

[DreamGirl]

This is a tough topic. Big fat       to you guys...

The further away you live, it seems the closer I will let you in to me, and the closer you are to me, geographically, the lessor chance you will have of seeing me. Its a flip-flopped sliding scale of what I think it should be.

This is a little obvious to me only because someone from a distance is no threat to your comfort zone. There is no threat of long term commitment, there is no threat of even your Friday night.  There is safety in that, and that’s what we often want in our life is to feel safe.  Something that you rarely felt in the relationship that ended three years ago.

Healing time is essential.  When we lose faith, when we lose trust in love.. in ourselves and our ability to chose who we allow in our secret gardens.. it takes time to gain that back. The same way a child whose innocence is taken can take a lifetime to recover and learn to trust again.  You were young, PDQ, when you embarked on this relationship that lasted most of your adult life. It’s all you’ve ever known, you probably don’t even remember what it’s like to travel on a two way street with a woman.  No wonder you were out of sorts on a date around someone who had their head on straight. It’s not what you’re used to.. there was little familiarity for you. I think that you weren’t comfortable is a good thing.  

You’ve written about cravings and possibly sabotaging yourself before.  Are you so afraid of doom that you sabotage the lovely lady who could occupy your every football game? I still see you waiting for your big moment, this woman or whatever to stroll into your life and knock your socks off… but I think you fear what you want as well because losing your socks the last time didn’t work out so well.  

You also mention your 38 years and not knowing this person you’ve become.  Is there something to that too? Do you feel like you expended some of your chances at whatever it is that you think you wanted?

 DreamGirl

_________________________

i got out of miserabe..

to sit in a waiting room...with a sign on me that says..i am looking for some one to love..

I wanted to remind you of your words just yesterday cause I loved the idea behind them...

i think what it all comes down to if you say

i am ready let me go find someone to be with... its not gonna work .cause you are looking..

for a replacement maybe? ..., some one to fill the vacant spot...?

some one who maybeeeeeeeeeee  has the parts you ex didnt have. but someof the parts your ex did have..

which is like running thru the streets yelling who is available to love me..

i think when the time is right..it happens like ... well it just happens..

and this person... make the rear view miiror  just dissapear..

[Mount Si]

I have heard some shrinks say that it takes a year to recover for every five years you were in the relationship with the ex.  In my case, I can't expect to feel normal as far as feelings and relationships go for another five years.  I'm one year totally out.  And as odd as it is, I am really comfortable using that as a schedule.  We've got to have time to heal completely.  To circumvent that system means we bring an unhealed us into a relationship with an unsuspecting partner.  That's not really fair to them nor to us.

Mountie

[schwing]

Hey PDQ, and HEY TonyC wb,

Here is my honest assessment of them. The further away you live, it seems the closer I will let you in to me, and the closer you are to me, geographically, the lessor chance you will have of seeing me. Its a flip-flopped sliding scale of what I think it should be.

What I am starting to believe is that this experience has affected me more than I truly realize, and accept. Because of my job, and my recreational hobby of playing music, I meet many women, whom, 16 years ago, I would have jumped at. Now, I am just as content to stay home and clip my toenails, as I am to venture out with any of them.

My gut tells me right off the bat that this is an issue of intimacy/vulnerability you're dealing with.  You feel comfortable with the ones who are physically distant, and you are keeping emotionally distant with the ones who are more available (locale-wise).  And IMHO, this is a pretty normal place to be in the aftermath of a BPD relationship;  you got burned.  Maybe you're willing to venture into the kitchen, but you might not be so willing to take off the oven mittens.

Case in point, I was recently broken up with by a lady, who I think is a pretty lady, and she seems to have her head on straight. We went out to a few lunches, and watched a Cowboy game together. During the game, I all but ignored her, not because I wasn't interested, but because I just wasn't "into" her. That's the problem, by all indications, and knowing myself, I should have been "into" her. She is attractive to me, but I just didn't feel comfortable, or much like myself, when around her. There was something there, a wall perhaps.

Walls protect people.  But they also keep others out.

Could it be depression? Could it be a fear? Could it be that even after 3 years, that I'm not ready?

I don't know if it's depression.  Maybe depression is the wrong word.  You might be in denial of something.  And fear probably has a bit to do with it.  I know this feeling you are talking about... the feeling where you are not sure if or how you can move further along with emotional intimacy in a relationship.  If... depends on if this is something you want.  I think it is.  How... depends on the assumptions you have about the kind of man you are.  I don't know that part.  But I'll tell you what my hypotheses for myself were, and maybe this will help.

Coming out of my uBPD relationship, I actually did get involved with a few women WAY too early.  Heck, what was going on inside my head at the time would make me think I was BPDish -- I wasn't ready, because I wasn't done grieving over my relationship.  It took me 3 years of being single before I felt my head was screwed on right enough to try again;  not that I didn't try not being single, I just never took to a relationship before that.

One of my assumptions about myself was that my gauge for "feeling connected" to someone was off... way off.  Because before my BPDgf, I really had to feel head over heels in love with someone before I made myself vulnerable; it was like I had to wait until I couldn't help myself.  I didn't want to do that anymore.  Mainly because I didn't want to repeat that experience again and I decided I never wanted to be THAT vulnerable to another woman again.  You might decide differently here than I, and I can't tell you if you'd be right or wrong.  But for me, being that vulnerable meant triggering my co-dependent nature, and I will not drink from that cup ever again.

Problem for me at that time was, I was still meeting women that were triggering me in that way big time.  I learned to avoid them.  Which left me with women I had to make a deliberate effort to get vulnerable with, which for me was a whole lot harder than letting my emotions do the driving.  I think to some people, this hypothesis is kind of crazy.  Because it meant I gave up "chemistry" as a basis for selecting who to date.  Personally I think my chemistry is messed up.  Other people's aren't.  Maybe yours isn't.  

But here's where I think our paths might start to look similar.  My choices meant I had to pursue relationships on other bases.  I had to give up certain kinds of "connections" in favor of a new "connection" calculus.  I think you need to ask yourself, is your current means of assessing "feeling connected" a good enough gauge?  If you believe it is.  Then I would argue that perhaps you're just not ready yet to get that vulnerable with someone else.  But then if it isn't a good gauge.  You'll need to do a bit of soul searching to figure out how you're going to make these calls in the future with other women.  Because you're going to have to make that call.

Best part is, there is no wrong way of going about this, so long as you do something.  You make an assumption.  Go with that for a while and see what happens.  If it turns out it wasn't a good assumption, you make another and proceed accordingly.  Next time you let an opportunity that this go make sure it's because YOU decided it has no future; otherwise, you might just be stalling.

I just think that so long as your goal is to find a certain kind of relationship in your life, that you should make a deliberate effort, especially if this is important to you; and I'm assuming it is.  Sometimes the effort will be more than others; timing is a big part of the equation.  But you're going to figure out something new about yourself each time.  So long as you're not just hanging around with only what is familiar.

Why is it that my heart desires a close bond with a special woman, but when confronted with the opportunity, I'd rather just take out the trash, and worry about what the ant crawling across the floor is really thinking. This isn't me, the me that I have known for 38 years.

In this specific situation, you need to decide that if you want that close bond, you're going to have to pursue it.  And maybe it doesn't feel right for a while, but maybe you'll learn a bit about WHY it doesn't feel right.  It might be fear.  It might be that you're just not fully healed yet.  It might be something you hadn't thought of.  But whatever it is, there's no sense in not finding out.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes, Schwing

[PDQuick]

but I think you fear what you want as well because losing your socks the last time didn’t work out so well.  

She can have the socks, its the boots I'm afraid of losing again.  

MOUNTIE! Thanks for posting, I haven't seen you in a while. Great to see you.



I'm glad you bring this up DG. Ive known for some time now that my past relationship was basically a One Way Street. It didn't start out that way, but it didn't take all that long for me to give up my friends, family, influences, likes, hobbies, and dreams. Part of my own codependency issues were chasing her dreams, so as to give them to her. Don't get me wrong, I loved doing some of the things I did. We were into horses, which I loved. I got the privilege of raising two beautiful ladies, which I loved. I would'nt trade those experiences for all the gold in Fort Knox.

Part of the pre-relationship me was alot different than what I have become. I realize this is an evolutionary process, but it wasn't one that I aptly controlled, or even wanted. I stopped playing music for many years. I quit doing things that I use to love, like fishing, and just jumping in the car for a weekend getaway. I even excelled at the job I was in, eventually getting to the point of owning my own business, in a field that I really don't enjoy. It was due to the motivation of being a good provider, and doing my part to be a good man, father figure, and partner to my new found family that I had accepted.

I have known that for some time now, that my job, and my way of life, as I choose to lead it now, is all too bland for me. I'm sitting at a park bench, looking at the one way sign, waiting for traffic that isn't there to entertain me. I left the only vehicle traveling that road three years ago. Yet, here I sit. I have no motivational forces to move me. That's my problem, my motivation. I simply don't have any. I want so many things to be different, yet, I lack the energy, willpower, and fortitude to change them. Or, as to come full circle, am I scared to change them?

[PDQuick]

We crossed Schwing. Thanks for that input. Ill chew on it for a little bit and spit it back out. Good points brother.

[Steph]

 May I jump in here?

A happily married woman to an awesome guy whos recovered from BPD.

I struggled with the same stuff.

When we were apart, I walled myself in, content to watch a movie with my gay housemate and go out grocery shopping for fun..

then, when we reconciled without the symptoms of BPD, it got hard for me inside. I was scared. I felt so vulnerable. I felt like I wasnt wearing my skin. I pushed away and I observed myself doing so. Happily, I was in therapy and we thrashed this one around and I came out the other side.

I get it, Q...I do. I had alot of support getting thru this, yet it was so present.

Even now..today..I can feel anxious about loving my H and being happy..and being calm and healthy. Its memories, its some scar tissue and I am told that its ok..just move thru it.

Anyway, wanted to put it out there, in case this helps

((()))))

[JoannaK]

I think that most of us who were involved with BPD/NPD types needed some kind of "rush" in our relationships.. that head-over-heels, sexually hot, addictive quality.  We may also need that need-to-be-needed feeling... the combination of sex and vulnerability.  A normal, healthy relationship may simply not give us that rush; without the rush we'd rather stay home.  So.. the desire for the highs (that we may never get from someone "normal".. and the desire to avoid the lows..  Also, we may still be haunted by the misery of the relationship with the person with BPD.  I think that there is nothing wrong with not moving into a new relationship for 2,3, or even 5 years.  On the other hand, I do think that, as we get older, and the longer we live by ourselves (or with kids), the harder it gets to allow someone back into our day-to-day lives.  We do become set in our ways.   

[eeyore]

self sabatoging behavior.  Why do people do that?  There are so many reasons. And I think we ask ourselves what is it that we haven't reconciled or come to terms with.  But we ourselves can't think of a thing.  Yet we don't allow ourselves to be happy by sabatoging. 

[Mousse]

In my experience, a big part of hesitancy to let someone in had to do with what I thought that would entail, logistics-wise.  Same for the man I am seeing.

We Nons very often rush the process - fall wildly and passionately in love, move in, make babies, get married, whatever.  We rush in, and we give it all away.  Part of me wanted to do that again, but a bigger part of me was terrified at the thought of upheaval for my son, changes in my schedule, not having all the hot water to myself and relinquishing complete control of the thermostat...

But all kidding aside, the very thought of such closeness, and such a change from our "dull" routine, can be as scary as the immediate prospect of getting hurt.  It's a fear of engulfment.  It's very likely that the reason things are working so well for us is that children, our school commitments, and work make rushing in an impossibility.  If we do move to merge two households, it won't be for a couple of years at least.

At the same time, because we took the leaps of courage to be open with each other, we can enjoy the best of both worlds:  we can be committed to each other, talk daily, see each other when we can, cook for each other...whatever...but we get to ease into the prospect of changing our lives for each other.  In other words, we get to do what Nons do best - staying close, being supportive and affectionate, without doing what Nons do worst - jump out of the plane with nothing but faith (or rather, the hope) that the parachute really will deploy, when we really should have triple-checked our gear.

I keep a safe distance from even friends, I'm not willing to give of myself as much as I once was, maybe cause there is less of me to give.

elphaba, not to be presumptious, but I refuse to believe this of you, or anyone else here.  It's simply not possible.  Certainly not with all the people all three of you have helped guide out of the FOG as evidence.  This isn't the reason.  (Why isn't there an arm-folding, head-shaking icon when you really need one?  Would it be invalidating?   )

 Love and thanks to you all  xoxox

[elphaba]

Oh, I love you Mousse... xoxox

It's a fear of engulfment.

Perhaps it is, therefore making it easier to hang out on the outside fringe and just not get too close.  See, those leaps of courage have burned me so many times. 

Here on the boards, there is that safe distance, plus my deep need to help those here who I know are hurting just like I once was...It hurts my heart to see anyone else going through it.  Helping others here has helped me heal so much.

As JK has said, as I get older, I seem to get more set in my ways, and it's getting harder to think of letting someone in to my day-to-day life.  I've spent so long taking care of everyone else, my ex's, my kids...giving to my job, my volunteer work, and I guess now spending a little time being better to me, enjoying my peace, exploring my creativity -

I am a deeply caring and passionate person but, it may take someone very special to find their way in/around/through the walls I've built to protect myself.  Ironically I had a conversation a few weeks ago with an old BF from HS, who said that was the one thing he remembered the most about me...my passion for love and life.  I have lost some of that "enthusiasm", still working on getting it back and I'm getting there...

But, I no longer need the "highs", and would be very happy for something that is just comfortable and drama free, it's just hard to take that chance again. 

Well the three amigos are just an interesting mix huh>> we seem to each be taking very different, yet, still the wrong approach, yet all any of us really wants is exactly the same.  To be in love, to be loved in return, to truly connect with that right person and be happy again.  isn't that what everyone wants...

[Mousse]

I love you too, witchy-poo  xoxo

I am a deeply caring and passionate person but, it may take someone very special to find their way in/around/through the walls I've built to protect myself.

My BF and I have had the wall discussion (he was a big fan!).  But boundaries are a much better alternative, because they are permeable - they let the good things in, and they allow for simple human error/well-intentioned emotional clumsiness on the other person's part.   Because when someone oversteps them, you can speak up, and give them another chance.  And when they repeatedly overstep them, you can let them go pretty early on because you have clear evidence that they are not a well-intentioned person.  

I view boundaries as basically a set of manners that you refuse to live without.  We had a rough spot where I felt like I was being closed out, calls weren't being returned, or wasn't calling when he said he would, - you know, the "busy guy thing"...When compared to the physical and verbal violence I've dealt with, this is pretty small potatoes for boundaries.   I felt VERY high-maintenance even bringing it up...but if you think about it, it says a lot about how important you are to this person.  And if I wasn't an important part of this guy's life, I believed he needed to say so and I would be fine with it and move on.  

Now this didn't go smoothly - I started off approaching this problem calmly, but when my expectations weren't met quickly enough  , I went into drama-mode, and he did his defensive clamshell posture (Walls went RIGHT up!)...but it ultimately resulted in a relationship where I feel very safe revealing who I am and asking for what I want, and giving freely in return.  The giving really does make me happy, so it's bliss when I can feel safe doing it and it's received with love. I think that safety and acceptance helps the passion to stay when the drama leaves.

It is unfair and counter-productive to hope someone will scale your walls to get to you - you have to put yourself out there equally.  Plus, the one who overcomes your walls may just turn out to be King Kong - some guy who doesn't respect limits!  It's in your best interests to maintain a watchful eye on the boundaries, rather than letting the wall do the work.    Strong, honest boundaries will protect you early on-- before you invest --while you do that.  Ironically, all that time I spend squatting at the Stayer's board has greatly enriched my dating/relationship toolbox    I highly recommend it!    

And what I said about boundaries allowing for human error:  Walls assume that people are bad...walls are self-justifying...they don't ask questions.  Because boundaries are permeable, you can examine intent a bit more critically.   My first thought was that this guy was using me, stringing me along, and that's why he was "busy", and that's where all the self-help books would say...':)ump him, Girlfriend!" .  But because I was putting myself out there, I felt the need to really ask about that.   It turned out that he was very much into me, and scared by that, and detaching was how he handled it.

But that first part, about finding someone special...I thought about that as I read all three Amigos' posts.  I wondered how easy it would be for people as special as you to find someone.  The BP experience is a transformative one.  I am a MUCH different person, with much different thought and reactions, than I was before.  You can see it in among colleagues or casual friends, -- my interpretations, my feelings about things or other people are often very different based on what I've been through.  It was hard to connect intimately with others who haven't been through something like this.   And because my guy seemed so "normal", I was only moderately interested in him at first, because I figured he would never understand me...  

...Sadly, lots of people have been abused by parents and partners and have had to rebuild...we understand each other, really, really well.  

So there is something to be said for just meeting the right person.

But you won't have a chance to recognize that person if you have walls to keep you from truly seeing them, and them from seeing you.

 Mousse

[schwing]

But all kidding aside, the very thought of such closeness, and such a change from our "dull" routine, can be as scary as the immediate prospect of getting hurt.  It's a fear of engulfment.  It's very likely that the reason things are working so well for us is that children, our school commitments, and work make rushing in an impossibility.  If we do move to merge two households, it won't be for a couple of years at least.

I remember that fear.  I see it now as my "fear of intimacy."  Not that I didn't want all the palatable aspects of intimacy.  I was petrified by the process of getting it.  That's why the "instant intimacy" of BPD relationships was so appealing to me.  That's why I kept selecting partners who were ultimately incapable of real intimacy but did a great job of simulating it.

I thought I knew what intimacy was and that I wanted it.  I had to realize I didn't know squat.  I think I had to take intimacy 101, and face all the scary aspects of it - the fear that I was in denial of - and learn to get comfortable with it: the potential for rejection, not taking rejection so personally, the reward and the risk, learn to willingly risk, not take rejection so personally.  I found that as soon as I got decent at dating, I no longer needed to date; courtship is funny that way.

As JK has said, as I get older, I seem to get more set in my ways, and it's getting harder to think of letting someone in to my day-to-day life.  I've spent so long taking care of everyone else, my ex's, my kids...giving to my job, my volunteer work, and I guess now spending a little time being better to me, enjoying my peace, exploring my creativity -

I am a deeply caring and passionate person but, it may take someone very special to find their way in/around/through the walls I've built to protect myself.  Ironically I had a conversation a few weeks ago with an old BF from HS, who said that was the one thing he remembered the most about me...my passion for love and life.  I have lost some of that "enthusiasm", still working on getting it back and I'm getting there...

I think in order to preserve a person's "enthusiasm" for close relationships takes practice and cultivation.  One might decide that it is not or no longer a priority; as long as one is truly honest with oneself about this I see nothing wrong with this perspective.  A trap might be to consciously put it at the bottom of the priority list when unconsciously it factors too high in the fear list;  I think I do that still... I avoid that which is MOST important to me because I am afraid things might not work out as I would hope.

But, I no longer need the "highs", and would be very happy for something that is just comfortable and drama free, it's just hard to take that chance again.  

Comfortable and drama free is a worthwhile goal.  :)oing something that's hard isn't bad if the reward is worth your while.  Not doing it is good too if the risk really isn't worth it.  So long as one is honest with oneself as to one's real reasons.  :)elaying something until one no longer has a choice isn't the best choice.  And personally, I think facing one's fears is the best way to get to know oneself.

To be in love, to be loved in return, to truly connect with that right person and be happy again.  isn't that what everyone wants...

The greatest thing you'll ever learn...

Then again that is coming from a very strange and enchanted boy...

[telecommdiva]

It's been a while...but here goes.

I tend to get really deep inside my head these days, over analyzing everything. Part of it is how I process things since my relationship w/ the ex.

I'm in a relationship w/ a man who up until recently, was long distance to me. Since I've moved, he's about an hour away. Close enough, but far enough at the same time. We've have discussions about marriage (whew I just broke out in a cold sweat) or living together. I was never really excited about either and I didn't know why...until recently. And here's why. I don't want to share my space that closely w/ anyone, and I have to trust the inner Diva that I might never want to...and be ok w/ that. I had to be honest w/ him about how I felt, and no he didn't like it. But that's ok.

I love him, however I am for the first time in my life living MY authentic life. I'm discovering and honoring what gives me peace. This might mean losing him...but I have to be ok w/ that because if I'm not, I'm not being true to me. I don't know what the next 5, 10 or 20 years will bring, but for right now I need SPACE.

[pallavirajsinghani]

PD:  Maybe it is simpler than you think.

We have the culture of becoming lovers before we fall in love.

Perhaps your mind is changing the relational paradigm.

Maybe now you realize that the better relational paradigm is:  Fall in love before you become lovers.

This means, sex is a natural extension of love.

[rcoaster]

Could it be depression? Could it be a fear? Could it be that even after 3 years, that I'm not ready? Why is it that my heart desires a close bond with a special woman, but when confronted with the opportunity, I'd rather just take out the trash, and worry about what the ant crawling across the floor is really thinking. This isn't me, the me that I have known for 38 years.

Hey PDQ-

Mousse actually tipped me off to your post, so I went back through to the beginning and afteer reading all of the varied responses, I have to agree with most of the posts by other members. It takes time man-and as a recovering Non man, of the same age as you, I can offer you this-

I think it's very simple WHY you are feeling like you do-and even though I was only with with BPDxw only a few years, after almost 3 yrs out, I am having similar issues, though I admittedly haven't had as much "field time" as you. BPD's knock the emotional wind out of us. You gave her everything, and she took what she wanted, and more than you offered willingly, and spanked your heart on the way out the door. It's trauma. It's trust issues. It's FEAR of the unknown, and of losing again what you worked so hard to rebuild, and are still in the process of re-discovering. Most of it I think, will improve over time...maybe much more time than you would like...but some of it is simply that you will never again be so emotionally naive, which is where some of that thrill of being REALLY in love-the tingly, gotta-be-with-her and I would throw myself in front of a train for her feeling, that in itself is not bad-but because we found it with BPD's, we now associate that feeling with pain, so it's easier for our minds and hearts to cope by turning it off. It's kind of like we have a bunch of wads of electrical tape covering the wires that turn that part of our selves on. The wires are there, but they just aren't connecting, mostly for fear they will connect us to another BPD. 

I have gone through a few stages along my recovery-some of them very lonely, and other times when felt like there was truly hope to finding a more satisfying love life. Right now I am experiencing a period of numbness of sorts. I have been dating an amazingly healthy and attractive woman in her 30's who loves me, and I love her. It's also very safe, but in it's safety it doesn't seem to turn those "in love" circuits on. We are very compatible, and have great friendship and good sex life-but it also feels hollow sometimes because we both go through alternating periods of pulling back and putting walls up. She lives about a 1/2 mile from me-but I don't think it's a proximity issue. For me, its a combination of a few things:

1) She is almost TOO healthy. I know, I know. What I mean is, she has been a great influence on me getting back to a more healthy lifestyle and positive outlook, but at the same time, sometimes I feel 'too used up" for her. I've seen too much, felt too much pain, been dragged through the mud, spent years in nightclubs carousing with musicians and smoking and drinking, and even though i'm trying to clean up my act a little, i still like to enjoy these things from time to time, as I feel its all about moderation. She, on the  other hand, is the complete opposite of BPDxw, and EVERYTHING I wished BPDxw was, but was not...doesn't drink, smoke or abuse ANYTHING. Very compassionate and gentle, and sometimes I feel like a dirtball next to her, when I know I am NOT really, but I find that there is a distance between us because of it somehow.

2) She doesn't call me every day, and rarely tells me she misses me. She gives me all of the space I need, and even needs much space for herself, working through her own divorce issues. It's almost too easy for her to NOT cross my boundaries that I wonder if she even wants me at all. I think there is something sexy about a little "neediness" and vulnerability IS sexy-because we ALL want to be desired by the OS. So it's hard for me to get really excited about spending time together sometimes when i don't get those calls at 1am begging me to come straight over and be with her. Some of that is good I think. When its absent entirely, it feels empty, like you;re going though the motions.

On the other hand, over the past couple of years I have also experienced the "blahs" about dating-and even about certain women I have been very attracted to. I will think about them, get excited to see them, then when it comes time to be together, I think, "Yea, I just REALLY want to go home by myself and read or do some work on the computer"...on a Fri or Sat night even! I also wonder how much of my own heart has been damaged so badly that I will never again get that "wow, I'm so in love" feeling. I have become too suspicious of women in genral, the process of love and the reality that most women I meet are damaged goods in some way. It's a b&tch out her when you are over 30-EVERYONE has baggage by then.

PDQ-

I hope that by rambling about my own issues I was able to help you in some way. It was therapeutic for me anyway! haha. I'm gonna watch your thread-its a great topic, depsite the way you feel my friend.

-Rcoaster

[PDQuick]

I really am humbled by all of your responses, and all of them make sense to me. Please forgive me if I say that I don't want to believe alot of the truths you guys are telling me. Part of me doesn't want to give my past relationship enough weight to carry these effects three years later, but the thinker in me cant help but realize that those effects are there, and my desire to put them in the past only serves to minimize them in my conscience mind, but they are obviously running strong behind the scenes. It is what it is, right?

Part of this process is the "new me." I see him everyday, yet still don't recognize him. I have done quite a bit of internal changing in the last three years. What once drove me, now has little motivational impact on me. The cocky confidence I once had, has been replaced with quiet reflection, and a vigorous interpretation of what may happen. My perception of myself, looking back, was of a man facing a flood, doing nothing but sand bagging. My entire existence was spent filling bag after bag with sand, and placing them in the most strategic location, trying to combat the waters that I knew were accumulating. I was focused more on trying to prevent the problem than I was in understanding the problem. My energy would have been better spent understanding it, accepting it, and dealing with it. Instead of moving my precious items of value onto higher ground, I felt confident that my preventative energies would work. Until the waters banked over my highest bag, and I watched the waters sweep away everything I once cherished. Now, those bags have a different job, they have held the waters in, keeping me wet with worry, further saturating things that weren't dampened by the initial onslaught. Now, I have to spend more energy removing these bags. One by one I lift them away, allowing the water to recede.

Ok, that was even a little deep for me. 

I guess it is the walls vs boundaries argument that Mousse brings up. Looking back, I should have said that if the water gets up to the stairs, I am going to save my valuables and flee the area, instead of building a higher wall of sand. Its a lesson learned the hard way. One that I don't think I will ever forget, but I pray I will have the opportunity of forgetting one day.

So, here I sit, with moisture laden walls, mud covered floors, and a yard devastated by rushing waters, not once but from the initial flood, then from me removing the bags and letting the water flow back out. This is where I stand. I can see now that I am torn with the decision, do I stay, clean up, and rebuild, or do I simply start over somewhere else. This is exactly where I am at mentally.

I have a business that has been skeletonized by the economy, a house that is in the middle of a remodel, stopped by cash flow and desire, and a man that looks at me in the mirror, wondering what is next, anticipating more destruction. I guess the burden is plainly on me, left with the decision of what to do. Do I stay and rebuild, or do I start over doing something totally different? I guess either way is an acceptable decision, but being indecisive is not helping me rid my life of the residual moisture from the flood. I guess I am the only one who can lift my head out of my palms, with my elbows resting on my knees, sitting on the mud covered porch of my life. I have sat here long enough, the question is, which direction do I go?

Thanks everyone, this has been an eye awakening discussion thus far. Please don't let it stop here.

[rcoaster]

Part of this process is the "new me." I see him everyday, yet still don't recognize him. I have done quite a bit of internal changing in the last three years. What once drove me, now has little motivational impact on me. The cocky confidence I once had, has been replaced with quiet reflection, and a vigorous interpretation of what may happen. My perception of myself, looking back, was of a man facing a flood, doing nothing but sand bagging. My entire existence was spent filling bag after bag with sand, and placing them in the most strategic location, trying to combat the waters that I knew were accumulating. I was focused more on trying to prevent the problem than I was in understanding the problem. My energy would have been better spent understanding it, accepting it, and dealing with it. Instead of moving my precious items of value onto higher ground, I felt confident that my preventative energies would work. Until the waters banked over my highest bag, and I watched the waters sweep away everything I once cherished. Now, those bags have a different job, they have held the waters in, keeping me wet with worry, further saturating things that weren't dampened by the initial onslaught. Now, I have to spend more energy removing these bags. One by one I lift them away, allowing the water to recede.

If I read that in the first paragraph of a book, then I would buy THAT book! Seriously. Spoken with eloquence, my friend.

Sadly, it sounds like my own life. So I guess if nothing else, know that you are not the only one out there with this EXACT feeling. I used to have sort of "Super Man" complex-I could take on ANYTHING you threw at me, and would nearly always come through, especially for those I loved. Was it so bad to perceive myself that way? I'm not sure, because lately I miss that sense of confidence that things would be ok and if anyone could get it done-it was me. Now I doubt every facet of my life-my career, my location, dating relationships, my health, my own words. If you didn't know me well, you may think that I am perhaps "different somehow" but not be able to put your finger on it, but otherwise I look the same on the outside-but feel nothing like the old me-positive, determined, trustful of my own ability to complete tasks, and very well at that. I walked my talk. I walked confidently. I was not afraid of my own heart or anyone else's.

I find that each step may be big or small, but I have to keep making them. Even when your legs are too heavy-make yourself pick up that foot. Be committed to the goal-of recovering your self, the way you were committed to piling up the sand bags in your marriage.

It's a b&tch and a half bro.You sound like a creative person-have you tried filtering these feelings into music or considered writing a book?

Find something positive to filter the experience into that can rebuild your confidence in why you went through it. Just a thought...

[PDQuick]

Rcoaster, many times when I was asked how I did it, I openly, honestly, and confidently told whoever asked, "I can put myself through anything." I thought I was, no, I knew I was a superman. Everything that I endured only seasoned me to take more. This was my naive thought process.

Just like losing your mind in a fight, I was beaten up pretty bad, but because of the adrenaline, I didn't realize it. After that wore off, and the next day arrived, I was hurt pretty bad. As long as I was in it, the adrenaline kept pumping, keeping me from realizing the pain I was in. After it was done, and the drama calmed down, and the adrenaline quit flowing, DAMN, it hurt.

Was it bad? Well, yes and no. Its a survival instinct. It is designed to get you through the situation. What it isn't meant to do is keep you going through situation after situation. There are limits. We tested them to the extreme. It takes awhile to recover from a bruising that bad, obviously.

Confidence is a great thing, just like everything else, in moderation. A man knows his limits, a boy tries to find them. I was a boy, living a mans life emotionally. I have matured the hard way, as it seems to be the story of my life. But now, before I continue any type of battle, I will start looking to see if I have started testing my limits now. I still don't exactly know where they are, but I know where they aren't.   As Ron White says "I don't know how many it would have taken to whoop my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use, and thats a handy piece of information right there."

[DreamGirl]

PDQ.. I just wanted to remind you of some comforting words that you offered up not all that long ago... (see below) not for any particular reason other than this post made me think of it (and really had to put forth an effort to find ) Sometimes I see you being pretty hard on yourself and expecting more than you're ready to put forth.  

Happiness comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes.. in a dinner with your daughter(s)... in your music .. and according to you even in a fish. Enjoy yourself, enjoy getting to know the PDQ that was forgotten for so long.

Now, with the past fully analyzed, and the lessons squeezed out of us, we are in the present. Not wanting to repeat the past, we look and feel ever so carefully in this present. The wounds have healed, but the pain is still fresh enough for us to remember. We feel nothing consciencely, but just below the surface, the memories of the pain are still very real, and its those memories that keep us right where we are. Stuck between the reality, the potential, and the past.

We are in limbo.

We try to chose what we deem as "safe." The luster isn't there, and the excitement is missing. We stay away from anything that gives off the slightest hint that it, or they, might have any potential to hurt us. We step softly on the ground, to make sure that it wont give way, and we taste very carefully, anything to ensure that it isn't bitter to our senses. We can tend to be over protective of the very things that we want... our happiness.

In our new life, and our new minds, we have assembled those eggshells we once walked on, into a protective outer covering, protecting us from the world around us. There is a new role for those eggshells now, and it resembles what its original intention is. We are our own yolks, and we are waiting to hatch, to shed our shell, and reemerge as a living, breathing, separate entity, capable of experiencing life, rather than continually analyzing it, and sheltering ourselves from it. We are here incubating.

My struggle lately is one of wanting to crack that shell, and come out, but still, the memories of the past influence my future. There is a song that describes my feelings, yet the meaning is flip flopped. I spent 13 years in the disordered relationship. I thought I loved a person I didn't like for so long, that I am still rebuilding my own faith, and my own trust in myself. I fooled myself for a long time, and my thoughts were so screwed up, that I had myself thoroughly convinced of something that was not even close to true. The song I referred to is "I see you in everyone."

I still see disorder in lots of things in my life. I see it in alot of people in my life. I see it in myself. I see my ex in parts of everyone I meet, and even in that man in the mirror. Hell, I was steeped in her toxic tea for 13 years. I cant help but have remnants of her still in me. Cover yourself with crap for that long, and it takes more than one shower to get it off.

I am teetering right now, inside my egg, wanting to break free of the confines of my surroundings, yet still feeling secure enough inside that the blows that I lay upon the outer covering arent hard enough yet to bring the first crack in my encasing shell. I know, because I feel it, that there will soon come a time, where I will throw caution to the wind, and feel like I am strong enough to handle the outside world enough to go out and emmerse myself in it. My desire to live is starting to overcome my desire to not be hurt. In the past year, the only chances I was willing to take were the ones where I knew it was safe. It wasnt a calculated risk.

There is a place of freedom, just beyond where I am currently at, where I can take what other people throw at me, and not hold it against them, because they are who they are, and I cant do anything about that. I cant change them, only accept them. Sure, I can talk to them, and try to help them, but it is ultimately their decision. I wont hold them personally responsible for my feelings on it, because it is their decision. I will just learn more about myself because of those feelings they induce in me. This process will help me figure out who I am, what I want, and what I dont. I welcome feelings of all types right now, because they are mine, and I am tuned into them, rather than reacting to misconceived feelings, like I did most of my adult life.

Yet, here I sit, still covered in my shell, wanting to break out, but still not bad enough to deliver the fatal blow the the covering that has protected me for close to two years. We know what we did wrong, we know the lessons, and the wisdom. We see the twisted thinking that comes here on a daily basis, and yes, we can deliver advice because we are on the other side of the process. Some of us are disconnected from the pain, because we have healed. We remember it, thus, why we still remain covered by our own shells. We are still struggling, not with the disorder that unites all of us, but with ourselves. We are incubating.

[PDQuick]

Well crack my egg and call me George. ADD is a btch, because I dont even remember writing that. Sounds just like what Im going through though doesnt it? 

Thank you DG for caring enough to remember and finding that. I guess Ill continue my incubation with one added phrase. The eggs stirs.

[TCarlisle]

It's hard to say what is causing this for you, because only you know you. I find myself getting a little distant from people I date once the relationship starts to really go into gear. For me, as best I can determine by looking at it objectively, I start to feel just a tad suffocated. As much as I like being in a relationship and spending time with someone I care deeply for, Ialso enjoy my time to be alone and be myself -- such as participating in these boards, etc.

I find myself getting a little distant from the person, and what I think is going on is that the BPR relationship completely consumed all time to be myself, that I am so protective of that not happening again I distance myself. Probably a more healthy way of dealing with that woudl be to simply communicate with the person -- hey, I am into you and cherish the time we spend, but I also need time to myself. But instead, I subconsciously F it up by being distant and disconnected. Probably because being with a BPD for so long has re-wired me to not feel I can say "I want to be away from you".

Also for me I have a sever case of the shiny ball syndrome. I like to meet ladies, hit it off, go through the phase of starting teh relationship, and then I get bored with that ball. I don't cheat, but I think I distance myself a little more for this reason too. I found a way to control this problem. It may sound silly, and it is, but a little role playing keeps this problem at bay. It occured to me that the reason we all love new relationships is because it strokes our ego when we first find out someone is into us in that special way. So I like to role play that experience from time to time. At a restaurant, I might excuse myself to the men's room and come back to the table moments later pretending to be a stranger... introduce myself... use a cheesy pickup line, etc. They always play along, and most really get into it -- hell they probably have the same issue. And the best part of it is you get to go through the whole thing klnowing rejection isn't a possibility. And if you do it loud enough that other people can hear, then you get the added benefit of feeling like "the man".

Getting back to the feeling of being smothered, it really is the same thing. The lady certainly needs her alone time to do whatever also. We can't be joined at the hip 100% of the time. That just isn't healthy. In my last relationship my GF did her alone time, but I didnb't speak up to claim my alone time. What that really means is I was afraid that if I did, it woudl affect the relationship negatively. Could be fleas from the BPD relationship, but on some level it is a self esteem issue. I am afraid to speak up and claim what I need in the relationship isn't to be with her 24/7.Reframing it another way, I don't feel like I am "good enough" to set that boundary and have her accept it.

So now I think about it... if I want to go to the gym on a certain day, I speak up because there is nothing wrong with that, and I am certainly good enough that she can understand I need that time to do something other than be with her. Plus, she more than likley has some of her own "self" things to do. Lastly, some time alone is also time to miss the person -- too much time together leads to time to resent the person. Problem solved.

I don;t know if any of this applies to you, just taking a stab at it.

[mwbpd]

Hi PDQ,

I had walls around me for a very long time and did not even know it as a result of my uBPDm's influence on me; I didn't trust anyone close to me, period.  It's not easy to let them down even for a little bit and every time one I let them down I hoped that my vulnerability wouldn't get shredded as uBPDm would do.  I learned that sometimes it does get shredded and sometimes it doesn't; when it doesn't I have to take a little time to recover which is getting shorter and shorter as I learn to trust the world again.  It's like a dance, two steps forward and one step back.

If I wouldn't have taken a chance with my walls, and I did get burned several times unfortunately, I wouldn't have met my wonderful DH.  It takes a lot of courage to show our soft spots; by doing so we are also allowing ourselves to grow by understanding what makes us tick and also by rebuilding our trust in others.  We don't have to go out totally naked for all to see; just open up a little, feel the terrain.  I took my time and made it clear to DH that I wanted to take it easy without any good explanation really; he cared about me enough to stick around.  My walls are down now when I'm around him.

Anyway, I hope I make some sense...  xoxox

[Mousse]

I learned that sometimes it does get shredded and sometimes it doesn't; when it doesn't I have to take a little time to recover which is getting shorter and shorter as I learn to trust the world again.  It's like a dance, two steps forward and one step back.  

 It takes a lot of courage to show our soft spots; by doing so we are also allowing ourselves to grow by understanding what makes us tick and also by rebuilding our trust in others.  We don't have to go out totally naked for all to see; just open up a little, feel the terrain.

I love this, mwBPD!

I have a business that has been skeletonized by the economy, a house that is in the middle of a remodel, stopped by cash flow and desire, and a man that looks at me in the mirror, wondering what is next, anticipating more destruction.

I wonder - does it give you any strength when you remember what you survived, and how you helped two girls with a seriously troubled mother grow up to be lovely young ladies?  :)o you know that after surviving all of this, with freedom and dignity intact, you can survive anything?  More importantly, with foresight and self-respect, you can prevent most things and mitigate almost anything?   Is the massive respect that newbies and oldies alike clearly have for you here some evidence of your value, of your right to feel joy and purpose?

Do I stay and rebuild, or do I start over doing something totally different?

What is this referring to, PDQuick?  The business, the house?  Your identity?  I can't tell  ?

  Mousse

[OutofOz]

Hey all,

Great discussion...  And PDQ, I can identify with a lot of what you're sorting through.  I struggle with the long distance relationship-- I've put myself in my own 12-step program from them and have gone off them cold turkey!  My uBPDexh was a long distance relationship for eight years because of his job, and my bf before that because I met him while out of the country and we carried on after that.  The LD relationships are totally intermittent reinforcement and leave me sick and unsatisfied, yet strangely addicted.

One thing I've considered about it...do you meet the people you date long-distance while YOU'RE out of your area?  I mean, there's the thought that you're looking for someone who's safely out of your space, consciously or unconsciously.  Some of the others have brought this up.  But I don't think this is me and have a different theory.  Is it possible that when you leave your area, the novelty helps stimulate you and help you come out of your shell?  You meet new people and become a little more bubbly and noticeable to others?  But when you meet people locally you're in "hermit mode" and you are invisible to them?

If this is the case, the fix seems obvious-- to find things that get you a little more excited and "up".  Then the people you meet locally might seem more exciting to you, and you to them.  Same symptoms, but a subtle difference from the "afraid of intimacy" problem.  Thoughts, anyone?

OO

[crystal]

PD, Tonyc, Mountsi, Elphaba...JoannaK...mousse, schwing...  and all the others on this thread...

I struggle with some of the same things and have no answers.

Maybe it is all about trust. If that is the case, one we learn to trust ourself and we will be able to trust others.

Maybe it is about getting to know yourself first before you can commit to someone else. If that is the case, three years really isnt that long...

Maybe it is about healing.  that takes time as well.

Maybe it is fear?  of getting hurt again?  of losing ourselves again? 

Or maybe, just maybe you havent found the right person yet, and you are enough of your own person, to know that and be able to stand up on your own and be alone.

I think we all need to sort all those things out. And I am confident we can.  But I just have to say,  Holy moly what a group of incredible people you are.  Each of you should  believe in yourself and know that your presence on earth makes this world a better place. Each of you survived terrible abuse and destruction.. and came out with dignity and grace and wisdom and with a sense of humor intact. The generosity each of you showed in helping others, when you yourself were suffering so-is beyond compare. 

You can survive anything. Trust yourself. And trust your ability to survive and thrive and grow and you will do well. I am sure of it. 

Crystal

[NewPhoenixRising]

Here is my honest assessment of them. The further away you live, it seems the closer I will let you in to me, and the closer you are to me, geographically, the lessor chance you will have of seeing me. Its a flip-flopped sliding scale of what I think it should be.

...

What I am starting to believe is that this experience has affected me more than I truly realize, and accept. Because of my job, and my recreational hobby of playing music, I meet many women, whom, 16 years ago, I would have jumped at. Now, I am just as content to stay home and clip my toenails, as I am to venture out with any of them.

Case in point, I was recently broken up with by a lady, who I think is a pretty lady, and she seems to have her head on straight. We went out to a few lunches, and watched a Cowboy game together. During the game, I all but ignored her, not because I wasn't interested, but because I just wasn't "into" her. That's the problem, by all indications, and knowing myself, I should have been "into" her. She is attractive to me, but I just didn't feel comfortable, or much like myself, when around her. There was something there, a wall perhaps.

Could it be depression? Could it be a fear? Could it be that even after 3 years, that I'm not ready? Why is it that my heart desires a close bond with a special woman, but when confronted with the opportunity, I'd rather just take out the trash, and worry about what the ant crawling across the floor is really thinking. This isn't me, the me that I have known for 38 years.

I have a business that has been skeletonized by the economy, a house that is in the middle of a remodel, stopped by cash flow and desire, and a man that looks at me in the mirror, wondering what is next, anticipating more destruction. I guess the burden is plainly on me, left with the decision of what to do. Do I stay and rebuild, or do I start over doing something totally different? I guess either way is an acceptable decision, but being indecisive is not helping me rid my life of the residual moisture from the flood. I guess I am the only one who can lift my head out of my palms, with my elbows resting on my knees, sitting on the mud covered porch of my life. I have sat here long enough, the question is, which direction do I go?

PDQuick, Could it be that you don't trust your own judgment ?  Maybe you feel like you let someone into your life who did so much damage, and now you are not confident you can choose someone who won't do the same ?  If so, self-imposed relationship boundaries might work to comfort you and allow you to open up more.  If you say that you will not have sex with a woman, that you will not get be exclusive, that you will only spend so many nights a week with them, not get engaged within a certain amount of time (or ever   )  - it might help to feel more at ease with opening up a little more.  ?