Tough topic, not being able to connect

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I don't think it's that you/we don't trust our own judgement.  I think that we allow our past experiences cloud our current decision making.  I think we get into a pattern of finding the wrong people.  We very much know what we need vs want in a healthy relationship.  We then take actions to sabatoge our current relationship that are good and instead continue on in the unhealthy pattern.  I am hopeful I am overcoming all those things and moving on to a better place.

[eeyore]

I don't think it's that you/we don't trust our own judgement.  I think that we allow our past experiences cloud our current decision making.  I think we get into a pattern of finding the wrong people.  We very much know what we need vs want in a healthy relationship.  We then take actions to sabatoge our current relationship that are good and instead continue on in the unhealthy pattern.  I am hopeful I am overcoming all those things and moving on to a better place.

[NewPhoenixRising]

I think that we allow our past experiences cloud our current decision making.  I think we get into a pattern of finding the wrong people.  We very much know what we need vs want in a healthy relationship.  We then take actions to sabatoge our current relationship that are good and instead continue on in the unhealthy pattern.

Hi Eeyore,  

Isn't this mistrust, either of your own judgement, or the outside world (specifically the dating pool) ?  If not, then why do you sabotage your current relationships if they are good ? (honest question, not trying to lead you here)  Is it because you are familiar with the unhealthy ones, so they are more safe ?

[Matt]

PDQ and everybody,

Reading through all the wise thoughts here, I guess my take on it - both for you and for me - is that, after going through something difficult and educational and frustrating and dramatic, I think it makes us much more self-aware, and aware of others, and of what can be under the surface that isn't so pretty.

I don't think, because I got burned by someone who wasn't who I thought she was, that everybody - or all women - are hidden borderlines.

But I do think, wow, I'm one clueless son of a gun.  And all that I've learned, most of it is about how to get out of the hole, and not that much is about how to avoid falling in.

So maybe you're not afraid, and maybe not cynical, but maybe just so much more aware, that you aren't feeling or projecting all the sunshiney optimism and clueless goodness that you used to.  Maybe now you're more thinking than doing, more analyzing than acting, still processing all these experiences.  (I think that's a lot of why we all spend lots of time here, by the way.)

I'm not sure if that's good or bad - knowledge is usually good but I might rather be happy than smart.  But you probably can't go back (without drugs) to as dumb as you were before, so you probably have to go forward to a new kind of relationship, and that might require just the right person.  Who will be harder to find I imagine.

Anyhoo, that's my 2 cents.

Best,

Matt

[ellefun2]

a man that looks at me in the mirror, wondering what is next, anticipating more destruction.

Why?  Why are you anticipating more destruction? 

[whiletheseasonspass]

PDQuick,

Phew!  I posted this accidentally in the thread where your quote came from...but luckily I could cut and paste! 

I came to this site to try to figure something out- but then was drawn to you thread.  In this post- I’ve included a quote from you that you wrote to me...a good ways back- in my thread- on another board and I will say that only a very sensitive, person could write with such honesty and introspection and empathy. 

I wrote about my D and after I explained my situation-  with great empathy you used your own history to try and soothe me.  I put parentheses around 3 different sentences that perhaps- maybe might hold a clue to what is going on- again just maybe and soon after the quote - I ask you 3 questions about these sentences.  Just my observation which could be totally off base but I thought I’d put in my 2 cents if it might help you.  I hope you don't mind that I dredged this quote up but it is one of  few post that is very memorable to me for several reasons.  You wrote: 

I can give you a little insight from your daughters point of view, now knowing a little more about your story.

At the ripe old age of about 10, something happened in my life that confused the hell out of me, and made me angry. It started my wheels in motion of running away from my problems, and led me down a path of some truly wrong decisions. It didnt manifest quickly, but rolled down the hill at a steady pace until I was 17.

My mother made a decision that didnt set very well with me, and we moved halfway across the country in the middle of my junior year of high school. This was the trigger. I had battled my demon from when I was 10 without the knowledge, understanding, or maturity it took to deal with it. I tried fighting my way through it. I failed miserably, and the move triggered the rage inside of me.

I didnt do well in school, started drinking heavily, and had the worst attitude of any one human being you have met. I got into fights that didnt end well for the other participants, and did things that I shutter to think about now. All of this was pointed at my mother. My rage and unhappiness was pointed at my mother.

Then came the BPD relationship, which distracted me to a whole other degree. I was still running from that 4th grade boy that I was, then the 17 year old boy that I was, and now, at the present time, the 23 year old person I was. Angry, scared, tired, and running, I tried, all in vain, to MAKE my life better, still lacking the understanding and skills that I needed to do what needed to be done. (I was trying to force things to happen, because dammit, I could do better than what I was doing). Trouble is, I was still running.

My ex, and my mother didnt get along well, and it fed into my feelings for her. I did love my mom, and I knew she would always be there for me, as she showed me in her actions, just as you are doing. She let me run off at the mouth, never saying much in her defense, because she believed what I was telling her, it was all her fault.

Finally, the collapse of the BPD relationship took the last bit of wind out of my lungs that have been running for so long. I was down. I couldnt run anymore, and I HAD to stand and face everything that had been chasing me throughout my life. I was at what we refer to as rock bottom.

Since then, I have confronted my past. That 10 year old boy, he is ok. What happened to him happened, and he knows now that it was wrong, but he didnt cause it, couldnt control it, and it isnt worth allowing the rest of my life to be influenced by the events. He came to peace with it, and allowed it to hit the floor at his feet, and he walked away from it, emotionless about it. (That 17 year old, well, he had a little harder time, because it was the first time that he ever viewed his mom as anything but a superhuman). She was vulnerable because of her own mothers death, and made some bad decisions. But because I see her now as human, and not holding her up to a superhuman, I understand that she did the best that she could with the cards she was dealt at that time. I understood, for the first time what she went through, and accepted it, and forgave her for the role I thought she had in my misery. Funny thing is, I put all of that on her shoulders, because I knew, out of everyone in my life, that she would still love me irreguardless of anything I did to her. She was the safest person for me to dump on, so it was there that I dumped it. I knew my mother loved me, and would, and thats why I chose her to hold the toxic spill of my life, as I ran from it as hard as I could.

Im not saying this to alarm you about what has happened in your daughters life. I say this to you to let you know that you, my dear friend, are just like my mother, and I was just like your daughter. My mother, just as you are, wondered the whole time what this was all about, not knowing if she had lost her son. She tried and tried, and still never gave up the love, just as you are doing. My father would talk to me, as a "friend" and ask me to please let up on my mom. Sadly, I didnt. I hurt her, and did it time and time again. The truth is, I did it because (I was hurting myself, and I needed someone that I knew would be there for me through everything I could muster). She never let me down, just as you are with your daughter.

I write this to you WSP, with tears in my eyes, because that is exactly what I did to my mother, and exactly how I see now that I felt doing it to her.

   

Soo - about that quote above- I put parentheses around 3 sentences that stood out to me.  Now I have quotes. 

1. “I was trying to force things to happen, because dammit, I could do better than what I was doing”.  Hmmm-  my question - is this presently the case for you - by any chance?

2. “That 17 year old, well, he had a little harder time, because it was the first time that he ever viewed his mom as anything but a superhuman”.

Just wondering- is “superhuman” playing a role now- whether it is something you expect in yourself or what you expect in a woman? 

3. “I was hurting myself, and I needed someone that I knew would be there for me through everything I could muster.” 

Again wondering- do you feel that you need someone who would be there for you no matter what?   Or do you feel that you expect this of yourself- especially since you tried this route already?  Is there some tug of war going on with this inside of you? 

Anyway- just somethings to ponder- and btw- those sandbags in one of your posts on this thread- what eloquence-  how wonderfully you speak in pictures- how beautifully put- yet hauntingly poignant and not just the sandbags- in general- you have a lovely gift for writing. 

[Buffie]

PDQ,

I have read your posts, and am impressed with the way you express yourself...I like your cowboy poetry style of writing, but more than that, you show a depth that, I believe, is the result of the healin you've experienced after the emotional damage...OK, chest bump!  Can't get too mushy with a guy!

I think that you've gotten to a point where the problem is not with you, it's with them.  They may bring the looks, and that's great, but they don't have the ability to carry a relationship at at depth that you are.  You know what it's like to truly live selfless, what a real relationship is all about, if your posts are an indication of you.

Hang in there, buddy.  You're doing OK.  That person is out there that has the ability to match your varsity relationship ability...and I'm sure when you find her she will have her own success story, where she overcame similar adversity, and has the depth of character to win your heart and capture your imagination!

Happy Trails!  Buff

[PDQuick]

Ya'll need to quit inducing this salty substance that somehow leaks from my optical orfices everytime I come back and read a response here.

First of all, thank you, each and every one of you here. You all do mean the world to me, even if i dont tell you. Where do I begin?

TC, I know of that "shiny ball" syndrome as well. I seem to have that aspect going on as well.

MwBPD, Thank you. I have learned to trust people again, but I do it so differently now. I use to trust people in their words, but now, because of all of the work Ive done in therapy, and lessons I have learned here, I watch actions and have learned to trust those. You can tell me all you want, but until you show me, I wont believe.

Mousse, thank you for your kind words. ILooking back, I dont feel special for what I have come through, or an outlook I have, or even to what I contribute here. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I seem to have a strength with analogies, and that seems to be a very understandable feature to help me get a point out there. There are alot of people here more kind and compassionate than I am. Im just a drop in this ocean.

You asked me what that meant, and I wonder often if I should just uproot my life, and begin again somewhere that holds a future, rather than where Im at, that only has its past. Ive never liked where I live, but I cant go back to where Im from, because what I loved so much about it were the experiences. I know where Id like to land, but even that place is a bittersweet place of high hopes from within me, to an unrealized dream that will never come true.

[PDQuick]

Out of Oz, I have done the long distance relationship thing as well. Part of what is interesting to me is that they arent from where I live, and truth be told, I dont have alot of respect for where I live. In 21 years, I have never felt accepted, and Ive never fit in here. Ive always felt I was different, and people tend to agree with me on that subject. I live in a remote area that has alot of primitive thinking. Thank you for your kindness, I know I can survive, but to tell you the truth, Im past that, I want to thrive.

Crys, my angel that comes in from the outfield. Little do you all know that Crystal is alot of my inspiration, and saving grace. She and I went through it here together, and I love her to pieces, as well as many others here. You all would do well to have her wisdom cast upon you. Thank you my dear friend for honoring me with your presence.

Phoenix, I think I trust my own judgement, but it hasnt been challanged in a while. That is why I have this thread, hard to trust my judgement when I wont allow any connection close enough to judge. Id love to have a thread with you on what is a good relationship, when everything you had was less than mediocre. Big Macs are good when youre use to garbage. So, if you stop with McD's how will you ever experience a prime rib?

[PDQuick]

Matt, those 2 cents could buy a house. I wonder the same things alot of times. So, you tell me, when does the thinking subside, and the action begin?

Ellefun, Im not quite sure how to answer, I dont see where the quote is from.  Did I write that? Give me a break, I have ADD.  Yes, I do anticipate destruction, mostly because its all Ive known.

WSP, its your turn now. Thank you for that remembrance, I didnt recall it until I got into it. To answer your questions, I dont try to force anything at all anymore. I was foolish to think I could ever have an effect on the course I was on. I am who I am, and truthfully, I like myself for the first time in my life. Im not angry anymore, well, not so much. I have alot of burdens on me, and my attitude is, do your worst, because the most important thing to me is me, and noone can take that from me. Cars, home, belongings, are all replaceable, but Ive fought hard for this piece of mind, and you cannot take it from me. I am more open to opportunities now than I have ever been, and the secret to that is to stop trying to force things with tunneled vision, and fixated eyes.

Sadly, "superhuman" was a fantasy. It was the last thing I let go of from my childhood. Superhumans are just like Santa, great in theory, but useless in actuality. I know that everyone has faults, burdens, experiences and skeletons. Its the very thing that makes us all individuals.

Tug of war? I dont know. I am going to be the only person there for me for the entirety of my life. I accept that. I cant expect anyone to commit themselves to me like that. I understand we all have our paths in life, and even if I found someone to share mine with, it doesnt mean that there may be a fork in the road somewhere. I dont really expect anything from anyone, and maybe that is my problem in life, no expectations.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, I really do appreciate it.

[PDQuick]

Buffie, I'm by far not selfless.   I'm sure there are many people out there that share not only mine, but all of our levels of emotional recognition. There are literally thousands here on this website. Many people have impressed me with their thoughts. Many in this thread actually.

Here's the thing folks. Even our disordered ex's are capable, and have, in fact, mentioned and expressed many of the very same things that we all do here, on a day to day basis. We are all human beings first and foremost. As human beings, we all have the same desires to love, and be loved, nurture, and be nurtured, to feel safe and secure, respected and honored. It part of the human psyche. What we don't share is the pasts that they have, and the trials that they have. We all form patterns of thinking in direct response to our stimulus from our conceptions. We are the fortunate ones, because we can stop running and focus. We can feel things without being completely overwhelmed to the point of shutdown, or utter terror. We can realize our roles, instead of perpetuating our victimizations. We are just a few experiences away from their mental similarity. We all have "traits." Some of us even have fleas. They are no more monsters than we are amoebas. They are no more primitive than we are stellar. They are humans, wanting the same things we do, but going about it in a different way. They are simply different than us, not wrong, not right, just different. I have tried to love someone different, and it didnt work. It wasnt, looking back, as catastrophic as I once thought. What was, was my desire for her to be like me. She wasn't. And to tell you the truth, that is ok. She taught me who I was. She gave me the power to stop and face what I needed to face. She made me who I am today, and if it weren't for her, I would still be running. That makes her the single most important piece to my puzzle. Because the relationship went so wrong, so bad, I gained something I had lost for 27 years. Me. Yet, she walked away with nothing out of it. She is still who she was. This is what I will take from her, I will take myself and the knowledge that different isnt bad, it just doesnt work for me, I need someone more like myself. I recognize that now, and I accept it. And to tell you all the truth, I thank my lucky stars for her coming into my life.

My perception of my past relationship, as it currently sits in my head, is that two people came together for 13 years, through tremendous pain, and only one gained something from it, leaving the other to remain on their own burdened path. The one that gained something is thankful, yet the other remains bitter. Are you sure you still want to label me as selfless? 

[PDQuick]

By the way Buffie... (chest bump) GO COWBOYS!

[NewPhoenixRising]

Phoenix, I think I trust my own judgement, but it hasnt been challanged in a while. That is why I have this thread, hard to trust my judgement when I wont allow any connection close enough to judge. Id love to have a thread with you on what is a good relationship, when everything you had was less than mediocre. Big Macs are good when youre use to garbage. So, if you stop with McD's how will you ever experience a prime rib?

That is exactly why I thought it might be that you are not trusting your own judgment - that you won't allow anyone to get close.  That is exactly what someone would do if they didn't trust their own judgement.  It is a guess.  That's not to say it isn't something else.  You proposed a question, and I was doing my best to help you.  No need to get defensive.  Although it seems you are making a judgment on me ?  I don't really know how you can compare my relationships to yours ?  Or why you would want to ?  Are you saying that your relationships were prime ribs and mine have been McDs ?

[PDQuick]

Phoenix, Im sorry, I think I wrote that totally wrong. I wasnt defensive.  I didnt mean "you" in the literal sense. I was trying to say that how can "I". Healthy relationships are not something I have seen. My ex and I got together when I was 23. So, dysfunction is really all I know. So healthy really is a sliding scale for me. When I talked about a "garbage" relationship, I was talking about mine. So, a big mac would be pretty good, much better than what I was use to. I apologize for my poor choice of words, and if I upset you.

[NewPhoenixRising]

Thanks for explaining PDQuick.  I am glad it was a misunderstanding.  I had a bad experience yesterday on one thread, and I was hoping this was not another one.  So, while you may be guilty of poor wording, I am guilty of being on high alert for slights.  So I apologize too.  I would gladly have a thread with you about quality of relationships.  I don't know that there is a lot of fine dining on my side either.  If you started a thread, I would surely do my best to contribute.  

Just to clarify, I wasn't questioning your judgment.  I was wanting you to look at your 'trust' in your judgment.  But it sounds like it is something else anyway.  Like some of the others have alluded to, maybe you have changed.  Maybe what you want now is different, but because you have been removed from the field for a while, you don't know exactly what that is ?  maybe you have not defined exactly what the new PDQuick wants. 

[TCarlisle]

Is it possible that allthis worrying and self examination is pointless, because maybe you just aren't into her as much as you want, or as much as you think you should? Maybe although you think she has all the attributes you seek, this woman just doesn't set off your fire alarm. Doesn't mean the fire alarm is broken, just that you may not be as aware as you thought about what attributes set off your alarm. Sometimes we get so caught up in this BPD relationship survival game, but sometimes it has nothing to do with any of that.

What you describe about your general pattern of getting emotionally closer to people that are physically distant, it does seem to be fear of intimacy. The people that are geo far from you can't rage in your face, throw things at you, hit you, etc. They can't suck up all your time and energy. Most of us didn't realize the BPD issues until we lived together and then it became quickly apparent. All good reasons to fear physical closeness. So maybe it does have to do with the BPD past. You can't do anything abotu the past, and all you can do is move yourself forward by telling yourself the obvious -- this new woman is not your past BPD ex, and you are emotionally smart enough not to get sucked into that again. You give a lot of good insight on these boards so it is clear you have your head back on straight -- I am sure your heart is likewise. You just have to trust yourself that you have chosen well, and trust her because she probably hasn't done anything to deserve not to be trusted.

[ellefun2]

Yesterday, my D16 interviewed me for a "Regrets Exercise."  It was a series of 5 questions, the last being... if I had any advice for a young person like herself, what would it be?  I said, "to not live a life controlled by fear; to believe in yourself and the goodness of life; to have faith." 

I know we have all seen the "badness" that life can offer, but by living in fear that we will once again experience that (expecting destruction, PDQ), we block out the possibility of experiencing the goodness.  In the end, if we don't have what we need and want, it is because we haven't taken the risk.  A life lived in fear is a life half-lived. 

[DreamGirl]

I dont feel special for what I have come through, or an outlook I have, or even to what I contribute here. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I seem to have a strength with analogies, and that seems to be a very understandable feature to help me get a point out there. There are alot of people here more kind and compassionate than I am. Im just a drop in this ocean.

Just because you don't see yourself as special doesn't mean that you haven't touched a large handful of us in such a special way...so don't downplay that for those of us who see you as something that you don't think you are. 

I know we have all seen the "badness" that life can offer, but by living in fear that we will once again experience that (expecting destruction, PDQ), we block out the possibility of experiencing the goodness.  In the end, if we don't have what we need and want, it is because we haven't taken the risk.  A life lived in fear is a life half-lived.

xoxo

"It costs so much to be a full human being that there are very few who have the enlightenment, or the courage to pay the price...

One has to abandon altogether the search for security, and reach out to the risk of living with both arms.

One has to embrace the world as a lover.

One has to accept pain as a condition of existence.

One has to count doubt and darkness as the cost of knowing.

One needs a will stubborn in conflict, but apt always to total acceptance of every consequence of living & dying."

~Morris L. West in The Shoes of the Fisherman


If you really want it.. than you have to risk those parts of you again.  You have to have faith in your new found sensors, and perhaps be less afraid.  Only you can figure out how to do that.. and we're all here for you every step of the way.  xoxox

~DreamGirl

[ellefun2]

"It costs so much to be a full human being that there are very few who have the enlightenment, or the courage to pay the price...

One has to abandon altogether the search for security, and reach out to the risk of living with both arms.

One has to embrace the world as a lover.

One has to accept pain as a condition of existence.

One has to count doubt and darkness as the cost of knowing.

One needs a will stubborn in conflict, but apt always to total acceptance of every consequence of living & dying."

~Morris L. West in The Shoes of the Fisherman

That poem said all I wish I had the eloquence to say.    

[an0ught]

PD, you post some of the most thoughtful responses. Feel free to not feel special - but I feel you are.

Your problem I can relate. I've been touched several times by BPD and every time it has been a great rush and then a big crash. The last time I understood and changed. Now the rush is over, the fighting has subsided, wife mostly happy and I struggle. Somehow I lack the anger I had the previous times. I changed, am more mellow. I'm glad that I changed but I'm not more energized. Sitting here in a messy room that needs tidying up since weeks. No energy, at least not yet. There will not be a bounce back, recovery will take a different path.

And while I struggle I put my hope on validation - a gift that seem to keep giving. I reach out and am able to connect to people in different ways. Not sure where that leads but it feels good.

Fear controls attachment. And at least to me having fear of a beautiful and obtainable women close by feels natural - I guess a non problem. Your analysis of needing intimacy 101 may not be far off. But on the other hand you teach BPD 630 and know how to get closer - validate her. Control your fear - self validate, open up to her. And how to protect yourself with boundaries.

Not much insight I fear, nothing on your level, just basic fundamentals. But those matter too.  xoxox

[PDQuick]

An0aught, I just woke up after a very LONG and STRESSFUL day of playing christmas shows, with a completely unprepared band and a new venue. In my grog, even before a cup of coffee, your post makes complete sense to me.

Maybe this is the "withdrawl" period. I was angry and running from myself for so long. All my senses are still very much numb from those years. Maybe the only thing that Im going to feel is something extremely special, or highly emotional. Makes for a good topic of thought. Thank you for putting that in my head.

[PDQuick]

DG, thank you very much. You are a dear soul to me and I really do appreciate that quote from you.

We all touch each other here, most of the times, we never know that we have done it. Thank you all for allowing me to see it.