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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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C12P21
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« on: March 13, 2010, 08:28:32 PM »

Today I remembered he called me from a city he was in... .

He told me he "hadn't felt this good in a long while" I asked him why and was perplexed as I knew he had a huge presentation and was wondering why he was feeling so good. The call came at 5:30 AM, and his presentation was around 7:00AM. He said he had been up drinking and laughing all night with the other CEO of the corporation and they were really having a great time. He then cut the call short as he said his friend was coming up to him.

I realize now that he had spent the night with the new woman and the guy story was a fabrication. He told me later she traveled with him to the presentation.

The memory of the phone call came to me today.

I am disgusted he would play such games. I am really angry he would tell me he hadn't felt this good in a long time, we had spent a wonderful weekend together just two weeks prior and laughed a lot. I also remember however he was moody right before I left to return home, withdrawn and a little sullen.

I also realize I never knew him at all. He was a chameleon and I suspect he doesn't know himself very well either.

I get now his criticism of my concern for my children... he was blaming me for "bringing him down" justifying his choice and behavior. He wanted what he wanted, as narcissists do, and when he no longer desired me for narcissistic supply, he resented me. He found fault with me. And he took the very things I am vulnerable about (my children) and used it as his excuse in an email.

But on the day we broke up it was all about her, his lust, blah, blah, blah.

Thanks for letting me vent. I have been keeping this inside all day.

C
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allycat

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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 08:44:07 PM »

I dont blame you for being angry but it just shows how they can lie with absolutely no sense of shame and how shallow their emotions are. I really feel for you having children in the equation as it makes everything soo much harder! Glad you feel a bit better!
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C12P21
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 09:26:12 PM »

Thanks Alley cat.

Yeah he is certainly a   

C
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 05:49:00 AM »

I dont blame you for being angry but it just shows how they can lie with absolutely no sense of shame and how shallow their emotions are.

I think this is what I'm finding hard to accept.  The evidence is there but goes against all the brainwashing.


I'm sorry C12P21 he has been so hurtful towards you.  At least your eyes are open to his immorality and lack of shame.  When mine did something similar I remember talking to his friend and saying in bewilderment 'where is the shame?'.  
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 06:25:22 AM »

C12P21, I know the feeling. I had my own betrayal bond with a person that sounds very similar. I'll never forget the email I received with an attachment of a photo of the two of us.  We were standing together at a charity function- all smiles. "Look at how happy I am! Look at my smile! I have never felt so good in my entire life. And it's all thanks to you... ."

Really sweet and heartfelt- until I found the photo again on a dozen Internet dating sites (with my face cut out, of course) Only a wisp of my hair was showing. Obviously anyone could see that someone had cut a person out of the photo (and presumably out of their life) It was very symbolic. But I was never given the memo and when I uncovered the betrayal it felt like someone stabbed me in the heart.

I found that I began to process many of the things and slowly worked through my denial that people like this really did exist. Rather than treat people with respect- they prefer to play a game of cat and mouse. I really began to suspect that I had encountered a psychopath. Some days I still believe that- and I'm reminding myself on a daily basis that I'm lucky to get away.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  

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Indigo Sky
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 06:31:12 AM »

Hi C,

When my relationship first started with my ex, her ex husband would phone in the evenings when we were in bed together watching TV or just reading, she was big on wanting me to listen to the ex as she talked with him, it wasnt until years later that I realized that she would text him to call at these times. There are no coincidences when dealing with PD’s

Then when we were married and I was at work she would text me to call, Over a period of time I realized that she was with her lover as we talked... .and I can only assume that her lover was listening to our conversation.

The last time I saw her (her boyfriend was living with her at this time) she was very smug and childish, she threw out a quip about her being such a clever liar and having lovers right under my nose... .a day later when I asked a question about her boyfriend she snapped back at me….”What makes you think I have a boy friend living with me?”.

They are real big on thinking they are so clever that no one can see through their lies and manipulations.

The things she said and did during our last month together were absolutely strange beyond belief. All it did was etch in my mind the seriousness of her disorder. It removed any doubt of her disorder, yes she in undiagnosed, but no doubt there is something not quite normal (not even remotely normal actually).

The last year of our marriage I had confronted her about her lovers and her inability to tell the truth... .but at the end, she again rewrote her history... .I believe they create their own fantasy world... .

I believe my ex knows herself very well, they are just too sick and too scared to actually change. She would rather suffer a whole year plus of depression and contemplate suicide than try and seek help.

When they are with us, they will do everything in their power to bring us down, to hurt us, to tell us about our flaws, both real and imagined... .yet they can cheat, lie, and be plain evil... .yet in their eyes they are perfect and we imperfect. They feel justified in their actions because they are paroniod and unable to trust anyone. They see us as the cause of their pain, therefore what they do is payback.

For me this was a difficult concept for me to understand, but once I understood I felt better... .I stopped looking at the hurt my ex tried to inflict on me, yes, they intentionally try to hurt us, to destroy us, because they can not stand happiness, they can not live in peace, and started looking at WHY she did and said the things she did... .and I came away with, none of what she said or did was about me, EVERYTHING they say and do is about them and to fill their needs. So when your husband called you it was because he needed an ego boost, he was that fragile, he was that empty, he was that lonely, A person that is secure and confident doesn’t need to play games nor rub things in other peoples faces.

The last month I was in her city. She tried every possible way to hurt me. She locked me out of her apartment with her boyfriend inside while I slept in the stairwell with her Christmas presents. She told me her son didnt want to see me anymore. Yada yada yada.

Now 3 months later she says I am perfect. She wants me back. She says her boyfriend left (I now dont believe that, she just doesnt want me moving on with another woman and she is trying to juggle her men like toys). She wants us to be together again, just not now, she wants to meet in the Ukraine, in summer and then maybe next year we can be together again, but not at her apartment, I must never go there, she will find us a new apartment on the other side of town. In response I have told her to seek another western man in Italy, Spain or France. The sun will help her. During the summer months she is much closer to normal, during the fall and winter, all unholy heck breaks loose.

They seek the highest highs and the lowest lows. Dont take what they say and do personally. They are sick and unfortunately most of them will spend their whole life this way.

If it is any consolation, they are empty, they hurt inside, they are lonely, their life is the true hell, I cant imagine a life without feeling close to someone. What we all see about them is not real. When they bounce from lover to lover... .its only to try and fill their emptiness... .which is impossible. Most of them think about suicide, not just once or twice, but they live with these thoughts.

My ex was a chameleon for awhile, but thankfully she couldn’t hold it together, it would have devastated me to find out of the blue she had lovers. I think your ex was higher functioning and was able to hide more. Ouch, it must have hurt big time to have everything dropped on your lap the way he did.

Only now do I realize my ex never tried to support me, not even once. All her actions and words were meant to lessen me as a person so eventually she could feel better than me. She wasn’t going to change, so to her, I had to change, to become less than her. And for 3 years I let her. My bad.

I wish there was some way to remove your pain. All I can say is they are ill. How they behave and think is not the way we are suppose to think. They are ill. I pity them.

There was a good post by Vincent, he has been 3 years NC and I really enjoyed it. It’s a recent post.

Sorry for writing so much and hope its not to incoherent.

I am sure better days are ahead for you and your family. Go C GO! “YOU CAN DO IT”! Have a great day!


I found this on the internet, not sure how it might fit for your ex, but for my ex it was like a blue print of her behaviors.

NPD and others with PD Characteristics:

Note: Characteristics fit for either female or male

1. Self-centered. Her needs are paramount.

2. No remorse for mistakes or misdeeds.

3. Unreliable, undependable.

4. Does not care about the consequences of her actions.

5. Projects her faults on to others. High

blaming behaviour; never her fault.

6. Little if any conscience.

7. Insensitive to needs and feelings of others.

8. Has a good front (persona) to impress and exploit others.

9. Low stress tolerance. Easy to anger and rage.

10. People are to be manipulated for her needs.

11. Rationalizes easily. Twists conversation to her gain at other’s expense. If trapped, keeps talking, changes the subject or gets angry.

12. Pathological lying.

13. Tremendous need to control situations, conversations, others.

14. No real values. Mostly situational.

15. Often perceived as caring and understanding and uses this to manipulate.

16. Angry, mercurial, moods.

17. Uses sex to control

18. Does not share ideas, feelings, emotions.

19. Conversation controller.  

20. Is very slow to forgive others. Hangs onto resentment.

21. Secret life. Hides money, friends, activities.

22. Likes annoying others. Likes to create chaos and disrupt. Needs strong emotions to survive.

23. Moody - switches from nice girl to anger without much provocation.

24. Repeatedly fails to honor financial obligations.

25. Seldom expresses appreciation.

26. Grandiose. Convinced she knows more than others and is correct in all she does.

27. Lacks ability to see how she comes across to others. Defensive when confronted with her behaviour. Never her fault.

28. Can get emotional, tearful. This is about show or frustration rather than sorrow.

29. She breaks her man’s confidence to keep him dependent.

30. Needs threats, intimidations to keep others close to her.

31. Sabotages partner. Wants him to be happy only through her and to have few or no outside interests and acquaintances.

32. Highly contradictory.

33. Convincing. Must convince people to side with her.

34. Hides her real self. Always “on”

35. Kind only if she's getting from you what she wants.

36. She has to be right. She has to win. She has to look good.

37. She announces, not discusses. She tells, not asks.

38. Does not discuss openly, has a hidden agenda.

39. Controls money of others but spends freely on herself.

40. Unilateral condition of, "I'm OK and justified so I don't need to hear your position or ideas"

41. Always feels misunderstood.

42. Does not listen because she does not care.

43. Her feelings are discussed, not the partners.

44. Is not interested in problem-solving. Unable to solve problems because that would mean facing herself.

45. Very good at reading people, so she can manipulate them. Sometimes called gaslighting.

46. Jealous

47. Double standards

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reneeth
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 06:36:38 AM »



    C,

    sorryfor your pain, what I find really sad is that to heal we have to come to the place where we 'take nothing personally'  ... .

its them, its how they are... .and for us, we were pesonally involved, we just didn't know they weren't and aren't able to be... .

 really sad,  but we can get better, move on and learn the lesson ... .most of them don't or aren't willing to         2 years out is a whole different perspective... .what a jerk he was  

the pain of the memories does decrease with processing for me anyways... .process away to get free from it all    R.
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C12P21
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 12:50:59 PM »

Thank you Everyone for your posts and support.

FB the list really helped although I see aspects of my personality in there, the things I wish to work on. I was moved to tears over abandonment issues. I have had to work through feeling guilty that I did this as I realize it is an action that might have made him feel guilty. When I think about it he would frequently tell me "I'm here to stay, you can believe me and trust me". Then when he would behave in a threatening manner (rage) over a misunderstanding (he did this twice) I would become anxious the relationship would end. I now know I need to work on my abandonment fears as it isn't healthy to rely so much on one person.

And I realize I need to grow stronger so when or if another person enters my life I am healthy. I know I was in a better place when I met him-the relationship began to wear down my boundaries and self respect. I didn't see it as it occured but as it sensed it happening, I began to assert myself and that is when we ended.

C
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C12P21
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 12:58:29 PM »

And one other thing, it is awful to know a person gets an ego boost out of duping others, I think about how awful it is to take someones love and trust and use it to play games. Knowing he did this, called me and played that game makes me sick.

I also know that when we broke up and I called him to understand, explain what was happening with him, or to talk and find closure-he responded through emails but never addressed the issues. He also lied to me about her, saying nothing happened with her-the whole time he was seeing her (that he later admitted too). My point is here he was-seeing someone and knowing that I was frantic and heartbroken and thinking I had gone crazy and imagined things.

It was an awful experience. 

Looking back, he took calls from her while we were out for the evening and I suspected something had changed as he never took calls when we were together, he used to say it was disrespectful. So the game began before I was aware. And yes, FB it was a shock to have it all dumped in my lap.

Oh well, better to let go and move on.
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VB
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WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 01:17:47 PM »

  That list is like my relationship... .
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Indigo Sky
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 01:20:30 PM »

Excerpt
Looking back, he took calls from her while we were out for the evening and I suspected something had changed as he never took calls when we were together, he used to say it was disrespectful. So the game began before I was aware.

Ditto... .

When mine was at this stage... .she always gave me  "Cheshire Cat Grin"... .it made me shiver, I knew something was up... .but didnt know what... .

Excerpt
10. People are to be manipulated for her needs.

Excerpt
22. Likes annoying others. Likes to create chaos and disrupt. Needs strong emotions to survive.

Mine threw out subtle hints, changed her patterns, made it obvious over time she was cheating... .all my words of suspecting (normal reaction to her behavior)... .she threw back in my face and accused me of being jealous... .

I understand now she did the same to her first husband... .yes its a game to them... .and it started at the first contact... .we just had no idea... .how could we... .

Keep strong... .

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C12P21
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010, 06:27:53 PM »

Excerpt
When mine was at this stage... .she always gave me  "Cheshire Cat Grin"... .it made me shiver, I knew something was up... .but didnt know what... .

Mine would do this too, this strange little smirk with just a glint of remote hostility in his eyes. I couldn't figure it out or put my finger on it, I just knew his faced and demeanor changed.

Excerpt
Mine threw out subtle hints, changed her patterns, made it obvious over time she was cheating... .all my words of suspecting (normal reaction to her behavior)... .she threw back in my face and accused me of being jealous... .

Mine threw out the hints, too. He claimed to be working toward a budget deadline. He was but then dismissed his staff for the holidays... and continued to work through the holidays without them. She was there with him I suspect at his office. He would email me strange things about knowing I didn't understand how hard he was working, I would email back and say I did but was concerned for his health and welfare. He then called me and said 'I know it seems as though I am having an affair, my ex wife used to accuse me of this during budget cycles". Well guess what, he was having an affair, I don't know if they had sex together, don't need to know, but he was spinning her in his web and this comment was after the trip to New Jersey. So if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it usually is a duck.

I am so sad when I think about the guy who played baseball with my son, walked with me for miles and laughed, took each of my children aside and told them how much he loved me and that he hoped to win their trust as we were together for life, held my hand as we walked through life together and promised me he would never betray my trust- he would state often to me that at 50 he had finally grown up. And you know, I think for awhile he really believed this to be true but then the spin of the disorder began when the excitment of "winning" me ended. On to bigger and better conquests.

Thanks for listening.
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lostinkansas
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2010, 06:35:43 PM »

WHY DO THEY DO THIS?

My ex BPD threw out hints too during the last several months and when ever

I confronted her about them ... .I was gaslighted!

It just seems like more mind games and torture for no reason... .like a cat playing with a mouse to prolong it's pain as long as possible.

Why?
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lostinkansas
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2010, 06:42:09 PM »

I got the chesire smile too... .after I was dumped and when she continued to live in my house for 4 weeks (I was still in denial). I saw the smile when she did unbelievable acts of cruelty toward me. I never saw acts this horrific during the relationship, but she really "let herself go" in the end to the point I was very scared for my own safety. I eventually kicked her out because of these acts combined with that smile.

I should also add that when I kicked her out she already had the keys to her new place for 6 days and was only hanging around to toy with me.
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C12P21
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2010, 10:04:43 PM »

I haven't a clue and hope to read some more about the disorder now that my initial shock and disbelief has subsided.

I wonder if they are paying us back for loving them, as they cannot pay back the person who first betrayed their trust if they were abused in child hood. We become the target...

I know this much, so much emotional pain was triggered for me that I left voice message after voice message trying to figure it all out, what happened, why?

And then the final voice message where I told him I was really angry that he $hit on our relationship.

This was a big step for me as I usually never go to that place of swearing and blame. But it wasn't blame its a reality thats exactly what he did. And then I get confused because with my training I KNOW he is acting out, I KNOW he doesn't get it, and I KNOW he was abused as a child and I feel compassion for him.

Sigh. I think what has been hardest part is knowing I have to work through my unresolved issues.

C
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C12P21
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2010, 10:05:46 PM »

Excerpt
should also add that when I kicked her out she already had the keys to her new place for 6 days and was only hanging around to toy with me.

Yikes, that sends chills down my spine... .

What a controller.

C
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Dorian
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2010, 12:08:48 AM »

C,

I feel for you. Mine pulled a lot of the same tricks and I'm also dealing with the surfacing of these horrible memories.

I was out of town on a business trip and she would call evenings to talk but something didn't seem right. It was something in her voice that seemed insincere. And during one call I swore that I heard someone cough in the background.  I told her that I was feeling anxious for some reason and asked her, "is everything ok between us?" She gave me lots of reassurances of her loyalty and deep love for me. Then she told me that maybe I needed to go to an AA meeting (she was in AA when we met and I would go with her mostly out of support). I actually did go to an AA meeting near the hotel that night.  After I returned from that trip I discovered the affair and found out that she was drinking with the new guy in our house the night of that call.

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Dorian
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 12:20:25 AM »

Excerpt
I wonder if they are paying us back for loving them, as they cannot pay back the person who first betrayed their trust if they were abused in child hood. We become the target...

We spend years of our life trying to pour love into this black hole, until we are exhausted and have neglected many of our friendships with people who can reciprocate. In the end we not only dumped but become an object of derision and hatred.
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C12P21
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 12:46:50 AM »

Excerpt
I was out of town on a business trip and she would call evenings to talk but something didn't seem right. It was something in her voice that seemed insincere. And during one call I swore that I heard someone cough in the background.  I told her that I was feeling anxious for some reason and asked her, "is everything ok between us?" She gave me lots of reassurances of her loyalty and deep love for me. Then she told me that maybe I needed to go to an AA meeting (she was in AA when we met and I would go with her mostly out of support). I actually did go to an AA meeting near the hotel that night.  After I returned from that trip I discovered the affair and found out that she was drinking with the new guy in our house the night of that call.

I am so sorry to read this, what an act of betrayal and such a mean thing to do. As much as I get this disorder, reading this stuff just shocks me...

x

C
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C12P21
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 12:54:21 AM »

Excerpt
We spend years of our life trying to pour love into this black hole, until we are exhausted and have neglected many of our friendships with people who can reciprocate. In the end we not only dumped but become an object of derision and hatred.

So true, yet he said to me "I left it all on the field" meaning he poured everything of himself into the relationship. He sees himself as a victim and I was the black hole. I know it is he irrational thinking but for a few months I began to think I was BPD. In retrospect I understand the issues I discussed with him were reality-about my life, fears, hopes and dreams. My feelings. He couldn't handle it due to his inability to understand or process his own. He wished to remain friends when "I" could handle it and not discuss my "drama" code words for feelings. Although it was perfectly okay for him to discuss his he would often describe his work day as hellish and brutal, although he is a finance CEO. I work with battered and neglected children, I never described my day as hellish. I love my job because I make a difference every day at work in the lives of children. It is tragic to witness their abuse that can be hellish. But crunching numbers and making a million a year to do it? Please, we should all have such hellish days, and he calls me a drama queen. Funny thing is, I never called him on his whining about his tough job. I just would inwardly think, GROW UP and stop whining!

Outwardly I would say, "Remember who you are and don't let corporate clones get you down".

Now I wish I would have said what I was thinking...

He is such a narcissist. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

C
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2010, 05:14:35 PM »

For me it would be when my mother passed away, on the funeral day, my BPD/PPD/NPD wife couldn't put her feelings aside for herself to allow me to grieve, she had to ruin that day as well, as well as every holiday and most weekends.

For my one daughter, the wife couldn't say it's your day on your prom day, to wear your hair the way you want or wear the dress you want or take the pictures you want, it had to be about the wife or when the daughter cried and cried one day, and the wife said "what do you want from me", and the daughter replied "I want my mommie back", and the wife says, "yeah, always about you".

Or about the other daughter, who brings their normal problems to the wife and the daughter says "help", and the wife says "it sucks to be you" and "I should have had an abortion".   

What kind of person says these things to their own family, to their daughters, someone who is BPD or whatever they are, evil incarnate.

This is just the tip of the iceberg in our lives.

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Indigo Sky
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 01:00:06 AM »

Excerpt
Then when he would behave in a threatening manner (rage) over a misunderstanding (he did this twice) I would become anxious the relationship would end. I now know I need to work on my abandonment fears as it isn't healthy to rely so much on one person.

I felt the same way in my relationship with my ex BPD partner. But I know I didnt feel that way in other relationships.

Know that they change us, or rather we allow them to change us... .

They need to control us, part of their control is to make them the cornerstone of our lives, then feed us thoughts and actions of insecurity.

Maybe for you it was just being in an unhealthy relationship with him?

I try and look at myself at various stages in my life and see where the change in me occured.

My new relationship is totally different than any other I have been in. Actually going slow and not feeling the need to cling or smother the relationship. And havent thrown my heart away at first meeting... .watching for red flags from her and from me... .still learning about myself but keeping the learning experience positive.
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