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Author Topic: The man, the mirror and possibly acceptance?  (Read 1508 times)
turtlesoup
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« on: July 14, 2010, 05:32:10 PM »



Just a couple of weeks ago there was a topic on these boards talking about the exBPD being a soulmate of ours and a theory that they were a mirror perhaps for all that was wrong in us. I didn't like this much. The idea that all this crazyness I endured was a mirror of me was something I found very hard to swallow and quite insulting. I've come to understand this now as something else. Not that my exBPD was apeing me or my actions but that she was showing back to me my problems by being the other side of the coin, the penny that fit the slot.

We say all the time here that we have to look at our own behaviour, why were we so chemically drawn to these people. Many of us talk about the deep sexual/physical contact, the ignoring of red flags, believing that this was love even though many of us didn't really like the person our exBPD was, they were cruel to us, they didn't show compassion, these boards are filled with these stories but still our souls yearned for this person. It makes no sense.

My exBPD was supercharge off the hook plain old nuts a lot of the time. How can I date this person and respect myself? Obviously I can't and didn't! She was a mirror, she gave to me unconditionally in bondage (both figuratively and sexually) to start with and then at the end accused me of being perverse. There is a codependent hole in me that absorbed that woman and every bit of her I could get, the drama, the headaches, the base and primal sex, this was the whole and unconditional, over the top, dependent love I craved. Why I craved this is now my work. I am not going to say why, to expose my soul on this forum entirely but obviously it has to do with my take on love and what has been missing whilst growing up.

It has taken me 6 months to arrive here. 6 months to turn and look at myself. I was so repulsed by her and embarressed by her that by association I had these feelings for myself. I have to accept that I allowed this to happen to me and that she completed me so totally and captured me because I have a problem and you want to know something else... .this is the best feeling I've had in 6 months. It's no longer about her and things I can't control. I don't have to stand with my mouth agog wondering how someone could be so careless and hurtful, how they could talk of a future to your face and be cheating behind your back, because it's not about her, its about me, and its the most freeing realisation I've had thus far.

I'd like to be able to carry this feeling through so if anyone has any ideas for books on codependency (I already have a therapist!) that would be great. I have been so struck by this feeling that she was the one for me, really just because I'd never had such a sexual connection, I hadn't realised it could just be my deep need for BPD characteristics drawing me to these women, that they fulfill a need in me and that is where the "heat" is generated. I thought it was love! Im so glad it's not! Now it's definately NOT it means I haven't lost the love of my life, just the biggest mirror Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know this is rather self indulgent thread but the person who wrote the soulmates thread, even though I really didn't like it, managed to get me really thinking and sometimes it is surprising how the insights of others, even if at first you think they are not to do with your issue get you taking another tack.

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RedRightHand
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 05:46:35 PM »

Can't it just be a bit of bad luck being "snared" by a predator?
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »

Can't it just be a bit of bad luck being "snared" by a predator?

Hi

It could be! I have never struggled to get over a woman as I have with this one... .and like I said, I don't like her... .she never made me laugh, so why so sad? How it is for you, may be something different. For me, I had this sexual connection with her that I just can not describe, I've never taken drugs but I'm guessing that would be the closest thing. The intimacy with her, was a drug, completely and I nearly lost my world chasing this high that came with so many damaging lows, nearly lost my job, did lose friends, my family thought I had lost the plot allowing someone to treat me this way. I think, and again, just for me, its critical I understand how I let myself compromise so much and dated a person I didn't like mostly because i am ___ scared of doing it again! Sure, she's a con artist and a liar, im not cutting her any slack, but Im tired of thinking about her BPD, this... .my problem... .it's light relief!
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »

Good luck to you.

I am 1 year out and still in constant self reflection about how I got in that mess and how to avoid it in the future.
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schwing
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 06:20:13 PM »

I can identify with your experience Turtlesoup.

And this is why I feel that what people with BPD (pwBPD) have, can be like a terrible gift.  They can see others so clearly and so deeply, and can elicit such vulnerability and wonder.  My xuBPDgf helped me realize some of the best qualities I never knew I had in myself: the commitment and devotion, self-sacrifice, and such love.  And at the same time she taught me just how much of myself I was willing to give up in order to keep what I so dearly sought.  And how painful and woeful a state I could be reduced to, when it was taken away from me.

I learned so much about myself as a result of my experience with her that in many ways I cannot help but be grateful to her.  But of course that is not how I always felt about my experience.  There were times I felt I hated her at least as much as I once loved her.
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 06:51:42 PM »

Turtle,

I agree with you completely. I didn't dislike my ex quite so much, but he definitely had some qualities I didn't like. However, There were many things I absolutely loved about him. We had many hours of discussions about people and the world and we bared our souls to each other in a way I had never done before. He was absolutely the great love of my life. Lows, they were there for sure. But even those, I could accept for the most part, until he wanted to date others. That I was not comfortable with. I am a serial monogamist and I never wanted anyone but him. That led to lying and cheating, and the rest.

Sexually, he taught me more about trust than anyone before. I am a very strong kind of feminist person and he was into S and M. I had never in a million years thought I would let myself be tied up or dominated sexually. Yet with him, I found it very freeing. I could explore all of that and I think it was good for me in that way. Now, he did lack in the tender department sexually. With him it was always super charged and primal. I would prefer it to be a bit more balanced. But that was the problem with him in general.

Balance. He was either one way or another. He actually told me his therapist said it was OK that he was a black and white thinker. Which I cannot believe!He must have misinterpreted that or lied.

Anyway, the sex was amazing and the rest of it was 35% good. But when it was bad... .it was terrible.
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2010
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 07:18:10 PM »

Excerpt
I learned so much about myself as a result of my experience with her that in many ways I cannot help but be grateful to her.  But of course that is not how I always felt about my experience. There were times I felt I hated her at least as much as I once loved her.

And if I could add anything to Schwing's elegantly placed observation-it would be this: This wasn't about codependency. It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

A Personality Disordered human being has a pattern of behavior that is ingrained, and rigid. But we dont see that at first. A blogger called Mommybunny writes: "At first, it is paradise. They are exciting and sexy. They are adventurous. They seem to make us feel more attractive, more important and more brilliant than we ever even dared to believe. We have no idea that it is all part of a dance repeated by these people over and over again. We are idealized. We are the most perfect ideal of our own self-image.  These people have done the work of the makeup artist. We are seeing ourselves in reflection, but in perfect form. How could we not fall in love?

The idealization phase is heaven. Nothing could be better. It is a little bit heady in experience. We feel off-balance. We feel higher than we have ever flown before, but with a sense of danger. We are losing ourselves. It feels too good to be true. It feels to good to be true because it is.

One day, for no reason that we can identify, something ugly happens. We find ourselves ignored, or deeply insulted, or the object of rage. There seems no reason for this. It hurts like the stab of a knife to the soul. We try to make amends for this unseen thing we did to become less wonderful to our partner. In the back of our minds, I think we know that it is the beginning of something very different.

These people lack a developed sense of “self” and so they borrow ours. In doing so, they become less enchanted with the image. We are now tainted with the horror they avoid. They see the phantom, distorted image of their own inner world. This, they cannot bear. We have lost our luster in binding to this partner. He or she must find a new specimen. They need fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of their own tortured soul.

We cannot understand at first. From this point of view, it is understandable that this human must try to do everything and anything possible not to look in the mirror. They run away. They project the vile parts of themselves onto us. For some time, we accept the burden. We see they are in pain. We love them and so we take it on, hoping to ease the burden and help them feel better.

Time after time, we take on their pain. It is confusing to us that this seems to make them hate us so much more. It makes no sense to a person with an identity of one’s own. They look at us and see themselves (punished.) They rage and run; they insult and beg; they find fault and ridicule. We love them anyway.

In the confusion, we become traumatized and distraught. We fall into an abyss. We cannot see ourselves any longer.  We have reached the ultimate irony. For the Borderline, to not be able to see one’s true self is a great victory. For us, it is the ultimate loss."

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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 07:49:59 PM »

And if I could add anything to Schwing's elegantly placed observation-it would be this: This wasn't about codependency. It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

2010, this was so soothing, and so real... .Idea  Idea  Idea  Idea  Idea

and Mommybunny... .wow!

9 months out and this wrapped it up in a bow.  Thanks for starting this thread TS.  x
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 08:08:13 PM »

2010, THANK YOU for sharing that! Wow. That hit home... .
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 08:18:14 PM »

Turtlesoup:

Not sure I could even possibly improve upon the eloquence of 2010, with acknowledgements to Mommybunny, but I think you may also be a little too self-critical at the moment, however liberated you might be regarding the "flip side" of the soulmate coin and previous discussions/threads about that issue.

I think what's so difficult for us nons who feel so passionately, so devotedly, so affirmed and alive by the physical and emotional chemistry of that relationship that ultimately eludes us because of the mirage of our BPD lover is that what we really hope and want to see in the mirror is the person BESIDE us in that mirror, who feels and acts as honestly, passionately, loyally, and lovingly as we do, so that when we're looking at ourselves, whether in joy or in crisis, they're looking in the mirror with us--at us, but also at themselves.

Instead, we get the ghost images, the False self (of them) and, as a result, potentially of ourselves, standing, bereft, with nothing but the longing.
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 09:40:48 PM »

turtlesoup,

I always relate to your posts.

Excerpt
She was a mirror, she gave to me unconditionally in bondage (both figuratively and sexually) to start with and then at the end accused me of being perverse. There is a codependent hole in me that absorbed that woman and every bit of her I could get, the drama, the headaches, the base and primal sex, this was the whole and unconditional, over the top, dependent love I craved. Why I craved this is now my work.

Do you still crave this? I am 8 weeks NC and I do. The sexual connection was so powerful on every level. We were: tender, romantic and playful, imaginative with role playing/dress up, trusting each other to trade roles in bondage/S and M, and all of it seemed like this incredible combination of psycho/sexual merging; both of us giving ourselves to each other in ways we had never been with another partner; going to places we had never been. What a betrayal to be split me black because *I* was sexually perverted and emotionally self indulgent. I was his slave, he was my master. I was his master, he was my slave. I am struggling with how to find peace and let this go. I fear that I will never again experience this kind of sexuality and it really makes me sad.

Is this kind of sexuality part and parcel of BPD? Is it just the flip side of something destructive? Are we left to believe that none of it was "real". It felt very real to me. I have struggled with this question: if I allow myself to believe the incredible sex was real between us, then do I also have to believe that the horrible accusations were true as well? Is it wrong to crave a truly amazing sexual bond where both partners are dependent on each other and emotionally invested 100%.
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T2H
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2010, 10:02:13 PM »



Hey TS - nice to see you again. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks for sharing this!

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2010
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 10:13:12 PM »

Excerpt
The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

This is what therapy is all about. You go in to an office and talk to a complete stranger about perceptions of reality and methods of dealing with difficulty. For most of us, the intimacy in a one hour chat isn't enough to trigger a complete breakdown of who you think you are. It's only in the self trusting, complete intimacy of mirroring- that we let down our guard. And we do that when we think people understand us. When we come across a person who idealizes, mirrors and unfortunately has a hidden personalized (its all about them!) agenda in mind- it shakes our very foundations of who we are and who we trust. And it is exactly the reason why we get pulled in and involved with a person that mirrors us, idealizes us, and then devalues us. They steal our false self and then deride it, but we've allowed it to happen. They shame us.

Because our false self served us so well in the past, we fight to get it back and clean it up- and the fight and struggle is what nearly kills us.

It is a transference that normally would have taken place in a therapist's office- If it would have happened at all- after *decades* of therapy. The speed involved is frightening (often after a few months)- and the loss of control is demoralizing. That's why some people think of this as a great gift. It's almost as though they peeled off a great scab that had covered a pre-existing wound. A wound that we thought we had taken care of a long time ago. We can only have this happen IF we allow someone to get very, VERY close.

The good news is- you transferred your reaction formation of a false self onto the BPD and came away with a realization. The bad news is: Your BPD partner did *not* learn a thing.

James F. Masterson says, that the Borderline is *not able* to respond to analysis, because they are *not able* to form a transference relationship with the therapist. I would add, that they are not able to be in healthy relationships, because they are not able to complete a transference with the partner without regressing.

In other words, they could project onto you, but "could not see you as a separate, complete individual with both postive and negative qualities." You however, could see positive and negative in them. And in spite of that false persona they may have mirrored- you've now come away from this and are able to see things in a completely different light.

According to Masterson, "A pre-requisite for a relationship was "an alliance" with the explicit understanding that two people are working together to help achieve a mature insight into any problems and the means to alleviate them."

But this is impossible to accomplish with a mirrored false self that's shared between two people. While your false self (listen, no one is *that* perfect) is being idealized by your partner, it's also being placed further and further from reality. And the further and further it's placed from reality- the more YOU become aware that it's not really *who you are.*

"The Borderlines problem arises from the developmental arrest of the ego and from defenses constructed against the abandonment depression when the real self emerges."  That's their own real self- but it also applies to you as well. Their fear of their own true self is what keeps them focused on your false self. By mirroring you and idealizing you, they undermine your real self and force you to defend your false self when things start to go downhill.

There is a withdrawing persona and a rewarding persona in Borderline. The rewarding persona is concerned with immediate pleasure rather than long term stability- and it reverts to regressive behavior that is activated by your "borrowed" false self. *THEIR* false self is so much more baby-like, infantile, submissive, masochistic, clinging. And concentrating on fantasy keeps them away from recognizing their own true reality (being.)

"The partner is not treated as a separate person upon whom the BPD displaces infantile feelings for the purpose of understanding them and working them out- but as a kind of maternal figure on who the BPD can engage in a kind of instant replay of the abandonment scenarios from childhood. Without realizing it, the BPD drags past and present and projects them onto the partner."

So your false self is very valuable- and they work it in a form of "reunion fantasy" whenever you have limited contact and they fear you are taking it away. This gives you the hope that you will become shared keepers of the false self again. But it's only a matter of time before reality sets in and hits you over the head. The false self has to go... .it cannot be maintained. It has to be shelved- this time for good. You are no longer that person anymore.

I hope I explained this well enough to understand. Most of it can be found in Masterson's book, "The search for the real self." His explanations, I'm sure, are much better than mine.  



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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 11:23:40 PM »

turtlesoup,

I must apologize because I think my previous post was a little bit off topic. I think I get where you are coming from, please correct me if I am wrong.

Excerpt
I have been so struck by this feeling that she was the one for me, really just because I'd never had such a sexual connection, I hadn't realised it could just be my deep need for BPD characteristics drawing me to these women, that they fulfill a need in me and that is where the "heat" is generated. I thought it was love! Im so glad it's not! Now it's definately NOT it means I haven't lost the love of my life, just the biggest mirror

So for you, the strong sexual connection you felt was due to the fact that it filled a deep need. I have recognized that at the time my ex came into my life, I had a huge hole that was filled perfectly by his over the top idealization. I am working in therapy to heal those holes so I don't attract another person like him into my life and want to believe that this kind of connection is possible between two emotionally healthy individuals.

Excerpt
Their fear of their own true self is what keeps them focused on your false self. By mirroring you and idealizing you, they undermine your real self and force you to defend your false self when things start to go downhill.

So sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the out-of-this-world sexuality is a combination of the BPD idealizing our "false self" and our "false self" soaking up the adoration.

Thanks for your insight and for sharing so openly.



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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 12:19:14 AM »

Excerpt
I must apologize because I think my previous post was a little bit off topic.

It Wasn't. It is exactly what we are talking about. (!)

Excerpt
So sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the out-of-this-world sexuality is a combination of the BPD idealizing our "false self" and our "false self" soaking up the adoration.

Yes. The openness you felt at first was just a way for the Borderline to seize the opportunity to insert their own reality, and slowly but surely maneuver the relationship down a path *away* from initial trust needed (for fantasy) -The trust was based on the realization that the *both of you could return to reality at any time* and be your true selves- in spite of the fantasy.

When your partner changed the dynamic and left you thinking that you were being victimized-You began to return to reality- a reality that your partner does not share.  And the fantasy of having this trust needed to share with another person was shattered. That is fundamentally heartbreaking.

Unbeknownst to you- this was the plan all along. They can be quite seductive in intimacy- only to have it turn cheap and degrading with the partner feeling used and betrayed. The more anger you have, the more the Borderline is thinking that you are a persecutorial sadist. And this was the Borderline's suspicion all along.

This flip of fantasy and back to a horrible reality is the journey for many enmeshed with a mirroring Borderline. The good news is that the awareness of a Borderline's use of fantasy is sort of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs-along the way to make the journey back. The fantasy must be grieved, the personality must be investigated and the awareness of the need for fantasy a reminder that it's many people's Achilles heel for BPD.  But dont be too hard on yourself. Many people are able to combine fantasy with reality without it becoming a pre-oedipal dilemma. And that's exactly what Masterson calls the Borderline's need for bondage. A pre-oedipal dilemma of bondage that disallows the real self to emerge- and one that never ends well.

For the rest of us- our real selves do appear- and it's perhaps our greatest work not to let them get covered up by our false self again. Fantasy is easy- Reality is where the real work means something... .
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 02:05:52 AM »

TS -  Great post & can so relate to the sex issue. I recommend the book  "Codependent no more" think the authors name is Melanie Beattie but not sure. It talks a lot about living with an alcoholic but I was able to take some really positive thought processes from it.
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 02:42:09 AM »

Hi Guys,

Wow, thanks for all these responses and a few Ims I have to reply to also. I think it is certainly true that I have been looking to recapture and polish up my old false self. In one of the IMs a person mentions to me a book "The Power of now" which really resonates with me because on a different message board (non BPD) I was talking about my total inability to see things around me because I am never in the moment anymore; I now think maybe this is because of my BPD experience and the desperate scrambling to avoid looking at the new emerging self.

I can seemingly no longer be in any moment but my mind is in a constant state of planning for the next event. I am not able to enjoy what is happening at this moment, even with friends or out at dinner because my mind is frantically planning for what I must do later... .but when later arrives my mind jumps forward again. Could this be what 2010 talks about? In relation to the fact I may have prefered fantasy to reality so wont deal with any realities!

OK so *deep breath*

So Schwing - I'd like to one day think of her in this way but I must admit right now, even though I am engaging more with the process that she filled a void/reflected a false self it rankles me to give her any props. I really feel, purposely or not, she brought down my world for cruel/hateful reasons, she wasn't trying to help me fulfill my promise or look at any inner child. I can't find it within myself to give her any credit, I see her as a bad person atm.

2010 - Your analysis of BPD is always so illuminating. You could be right that it isn't a case of classic codependency, I am struggling to put a "label" on what happened... maybe it doesn't need a label like "codependency"

"It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists." - Do you imagine then that my run in with the exBPD was something that I propogated and needed to tear down the false self, was I driving this or was I simply unfortunate/fortunate to meet her depending on how you look at it?

I did take on her pain, her accusations and insults and she did seem to regard me less and less as I felt I was loving and helping her more and more. I couldn't see myself anymore, all my hobbies and friends were now a past life and I have been trying to find my way back to that person but can't seem to reignite that passion I held previously for anything. This is because I am coming to terms with a new authentic self?

I think I fight so hard to just return to the start before i met her not only because I recognise it and it's easier but I also feel, if I fundamentally change because of my run in with her then I've let her win. Does that make sense?

CMK: Yes, we also had an issue with her wanting an open relationship initially but I didn't. This was the crux of me leaving the first time only for her 6 months later to tell me she could be monogomous... .of course, she could not in the end and was at least emotionally cheating. I never got the truth about what she was doing but the drama that accompanied that time (pretending to be raped/losing jobs) there was always so much else going on that the fidelity issue became of secondary importance - as did everything that involved what I wanted or felt. I was also not a person into bondage. With me and her, she wanted me to tie her up and hurt her with belts and other things. We explored sex and I was always up for whatever she wanted but I always felt very silly with the bondage as it was not my style. Almost always afterwards she would cry very hard and I was devastated! I would feel terrible because I had done these things she asked and then afterwards she would be in tears and look at me like I were a monster!

I still don't really understand why she did this.

2idealistic - I may be being too self critical but I feel in the past I have been so incredibly easy on myself. I used to be a person who would have shrugged my shoulders and gone "she's nuts" but the truth is, I am frightened to let this one go without giving myself the shaking I need to not do it again. Perhaps I am being too hard on myself I suppose I'll only figure that out in retrospect.

mshell - I love this "incredible combination of psycho/sexual merging" - I have struggled for the words for what happened sexually with the exBPD but I think this encapsulates it nicely. I don't really yearn for the sex the over-riding feeling I have when I think about the sex is that I am fearful or sad that I wont experience such sexual freedom (or bondage! the opposite of freedom?) with someone new. I certainly don't want to instigate anything like what my ex and me shared.

I have come to believe she was fulfilling some need in me but I still haven't worked out what the need was. Perhaps it is, as 2010 alludes to, some need within fantasy that has now been exposed and my authentic self would no longer be drawn to a borderline. This is my biggest fear and is keeping me in at night and turning down offers from women. I am finding excuses to not go on dates! There is a beautiful young Italian woman who has told me she would love to date me, I find her very attractive and instead I come home and play World of Warcraft!

There's a lot of stuff here and in honesty it takes me some time to really go over it and for it to sink in so these are my initial thoughts. again, thanks to everyone who replied Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 02:52:08 AM »

Schwing and 2010... .Thank you for the amazing posts. The posts ring true for me.

2010... .I have ordered that book. I hope it helps. I feel like I've come a long way but do not quite feel like I'm "there" yet where ever there is. It looks to me like you are there... .or if not, much closer than I. I am open to other suggestions. Are there other books that you would recommend? Or other things that may help me along?
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 02:56:22 AM »

I am not ashamed of anything I have done sexually with my ex. Are you feeling shame or is there some other fear?

I apologize if this is too personal.
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 03:25:52 AM »

I am not ashamed of anything I have done sexually with my ex. Are you feeling shame or is there some other fear?

I apologize if this is too personal.

Don't worry I will answer almost any question!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't think Im ashamed as much as I am confused. I can't understand why she now hates me for acting out the things she wanted. I have had emails from her telling me that I have raped her, that I have "taken her infront of entire cities" and I've shamed her! But I would never do anything to any woman without consent and indeed she verbally asked me to do these things, she presented the belt in my hand! Its crazy to then accuse this of being my idea and that I am the pervert!

What can I say!
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 03:52:21 AM »

It sounds like she is the one suffering from shame. Did she have a religious background?

My ex did the same. He had a sort of guilty ambivalence about his desires. He was raised Catholic and had kind of a Madonna Whore complex. So was I, but I think you can be a madonna and a whore!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) (not one or the other. ) There goes the Black/White thinking again.

I sometimes feel I won't ever feel as free sexually. Have you had those feelings?
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2010, 04:16:44 AM »

Yes I do feel that way. I am not overly proud of my body (even though I know in my head there is no real issue here) and that may be where my shame is coming from. She, for the most part and at least in the beginning was great with me and allowed me to express myself and didn't complain, infact she loved (or so i thought) my body and accepted me warts and all (I don't have warts!  Smiling (click to insert in post) )

She was also raised a catholic and has many issues with her sexuality, being bisexual and very sexual too, I think she has shame issues from both her mother and her father who condemned her for lesbian affairs.

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!
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gatorgirl
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2010, 07:52:38 AM »

Excerpt
They need fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of their own tortured soul.

This statement speaks volumes.  It's like changing a piece of clothing every few minutes because once it's on because it feels dirty.  I saw this with my exBPDbf.  He has been with so many women over his 54 years.  In a sad, introspective moment he said, "I guess I just want the white picket fence thing."  He has had it over and over... .many good women have come his way.  But I guess he is searching for someone he believes will hold that "new" untainted feeling for him.   

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David Dare
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2010, 09:08:36 AM »

This is a liberating thread for me.  Thanks, everyone, for all of the honest personal insight... .it is invaluable to me.  This has been on my mind for quite a while and I've been waiting for the right moment to let it out:

I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her.  I, ":)avid Dare", fully acknowledge and understand the lessons I've learned from studying BPD and applying them while retro-examining the relationship.  However, this part of me that longs for her, this nagging thorn in my mind that won't fully accept the logical implications of what has happened is not ":)avid Dare".

The false self has existed within me for a very long time.  It was a burning coal which was stoked into a raging forest fire by the mirroring of my ex.  It grew out of control via idealization.  I felt it building and growing hotter every step of the way.  ":)D" had his doubts, but the false self ate her up in fistfuls.  Before I knew what was happening, the false self was in complete control.  It wasn't until after many weeks that I could step back and see it for what it is, and now I am facing it head on, dismantling it.

The relationship was relatively short (3 months), and I sometimes ask myself how I could have changed so quickly?  It took me a while to realize that during my blind reverie I had spent 6 straight weeks with nobody but her.  My addiction for her was on full tilt.  We were sucking each other dry psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually.  A couple of friends refer to that time as my "disappearance", as I had practically fallen off the radar overnight.  Many of them had no idea where I was staying.

My inner-child came out right away during that time.  I would wonder "Am I doing this or is she pulling it out of me?".  There was no doubt that at that time she was my perceived "soulmate", however it should be defined.

Another thing that was so strange to me, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but she seemed to be fully knowledgeable of being PD'd without actually labeling it as such.  She told me she acts on cycles, was feeling fight or flight, tried to look at the gray, that we were mirror images, etc.  It seemed very methodical, and perhaps I should have started Googling then rather than after the fact.  So, for me personally, I wonder if I was victimized by a "professional" so to speak, someone who knew exactly what to expect, knew the end of it before it even began, pumping my false self to it's peak.

The time I saw her to say my final goodbye, a few weeks after I had learned that she cheated on me while I was out of town, I was amazed at how differently she acted.  The only part of it that seemed like the ex I knew was when she said, "It's gonna be okay".  Everything else, about ten minutes of small talk, was like communicating with a stranger.  Now I know why.  Her false self had exited the building, and so had mine.

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schwing
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2010, 03:11:58 PM »

@Turtlesoup

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!

I understand this concern.  I don't know how you will choose to approach this problem, but here is how I came to address it: In my case, I needed that intense feeling (of a BPD relationship) in order to overcome the fear I had within me.  I was so deeply afraid of rejection and ultimately of intimacy that I NEEDED such intense feelings in order to overcome my trepidation.  I needed the intensity and perhaps also the familiarity in order to engage some deep and dysfunctional issues I had as a result of my upbringing (thanks mom).

I came to realize that the women with whom I had such chemistry, are harbingers of a great deal of pain.  I decided it would be better for me to work through these personal issues without recreating them in my intimate interpersonal relationships (ie, such as in therapy as 2010 suggests).  So I did have to give up this "feeling."  Because I decided it would not lead me towards happiness.  I chose to believe that happiness can be obtained on a different path.  And I did have to alter my definition of "happiness."  And I am confident that my current definition is improved over my prior beliefs.

You may not be able to "feel that way with another woman" but you need to consider that how you felt is at least as dependent upon you (and your relationship with yourself) as it is on the behavior of other women.  Other people don't "make" you feel any way without your consent.  How you feel about the next woman, may depend on you as much as it does on her.

@David Dare

Another thing that was so strange to me, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but she seemed to be fully knowledgeable of being PD'd without actually labeling it as such.  She told me she acts on cycles, was feeling fight or flight, tried to look at the gray, that we were mirror images, etc.  It seemed very methodical, and perhaps I should have started Googling then rather than after the fact.  So, for me personally, I wonder if I was victimized by a "professional" so to speak, someone who knew exactly what to expect, knew the end of it before it even began, pumping my false self to it's peak.

My understanding of people with BPD (pwBPD) is that intellectually, cognitively they can be brilliant.  And when there is sufficient objectivity in their interpersonal relationships (ie, emotional distance) such as when the relationship is very new, they can recall their cycles and behaviors.  But the minute their emotions come into play, it overwhelms them (especially when they lack any training/therapy to temper these intense feelings).

As I see it, each time they start a new relationship, they desperately want to believe that this time it will be different.  If they truly believed that it would all end the same, then why go through the motions?  Why not try to break the cycle?  Why not work towards recovery? 

I think it is an act, a front.  Pretend that you know exactly what you are doing, know what to expect because you choose it; when in actuality, you have no choice in the outcome.  When your only choice is whether or not to continue doing what hasn't been working for you all this time.  And it is too painful for you to even try.  It is easier to give up on yourself when you pin all your (unconscious) hopes on the other person.

@2010

Thank you for your insight, explanations and quotes from Masterson's book.  I will have to give that book a read.
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 03:40:36 PM »

David Dare

Have you read the Masterson book also?

This thread has started an itch in my brain and got me to thinking. The accounts by 2010 and David Dare have been ringing true with me, but where do I go from here?
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »

"I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her."

Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?
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cmk
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 06:55:28 PM »

Schwing,

"Other people don't make any way without your consent."

I believe this is true. However, I have felt that it takes a lot for me to feel comfortable enough to expose myself intimately with someone. Maybe because my BPDex was so different sexually from anyone I had been with, I felt comfortable to do things and experience things I had never done before. I am 44 yrs old, divorced once and have had a far number of sex partners in my life! Yet, sexually, I had grown more with my exBPDbf in 2 years than I had with all the others combined. What is that about? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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David Dare
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2010, 03:47:40 AM »

"I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her."

Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?

Great question.  This is tough to put into words.  I will do my best.

The false self was created as the result of fullfilling a fantasy that has existed since childhood.  It's not a vivid fantasy, like one I dwelled on all the time for many years.  It's more like a vague fantasy of reaching a point in life where my lovequest had been fullfilled.

The problem is that in reality it hadn't been fullfilled.  Maybe for a brief period.  It was simply my belief that it was fullfilled that allowed it to be so.  At this juncture, my false self was an impeccable image that I wanted to convey to the rest of the world.  This impeccable image could only exist in proximity of the impeccable image I constructed of ex.  If her image became flawed, then so did mine.  Part of the false self's function was to constantly view my ex as perfect so it could sustain it's own false perfection.

So I let my guard down and shared many personal thoughts and ideas with my ex, stuff I wouldn't tell anyone else or even share here.  It is too personal.  She went right along with it, "mirrored" it, validating the false self into supreme existence.  Everything was going perfectly, too perfectly.

Was it thought reform?  I would say yes, but more like she allowed me to reform myself.  She allowed me to believe that I was the false self, and that the false self was sustainable.  She didn't have to try.  To blame her or give her credit for it would not be correct.  I wanted to be that false self.  I "trained" myself.  At the time, it felt so good, there was no worry as to where this would lead or that it was even happening other than subtle pangs of doubt that went ignored.

It happened at such a rapid pace that there was no time for introspective evaluation in the moment.  Finding a crack in her facade would reveal one in mine.  I knew that the circumstance I was in was too good to believe, but I never had time to sit back and analyze the reality of it.  I was caught up in the blissfulness that the false self reveled in.

It's when the dysfunctional truth of our r/s started to emerge that the false self began to "outthink" the real self.  Everything strange and inconsistant was rationalized.  Think of it like a mental mechanism growing bigger and weaker as time went along.  The more I rationalized things, the larger the mechanism became, the harder it was to sustain.  The damage is done when the false self is suffering but is so detached from the true self for it to register as pain.  The pain was completely numbed until the r/s fell apart and I was left to confront the reality that I had changed and was actually in severe emotional pain.

It took weeks of NC for my feelings to become more manageable to a point where I wasn't thinking about her every second of the day.  There were times, though, when my thoughts would focus on her and became very deeply felt, like I was mesmorizing myself.  This is when I began to notice the other self.  It is like a different me.  I recognized it as the return of the mechanism, the one constructed while I was with her, trying to regain a foothold over my consciousness.  

I'm not a professional psychologist, but I would presume that coming to conclusions such as this take time and honest introspection.  I would also argue that although such realizations of oneself are a milestone in terms of recovery, it also leads to new challenges, particularly, as Turtlesoup mentions, how to avoid returning to that mindset and staving off pangs of idealization nostalgia that temp us to desire that feeling again.  The goal, I imagine, is to gain wisdom from the experience while also examining what brought the false self into such powerful existence and what aspects of it were most damaging.  What were it's qualities, what were it's liabilities.  This takes time.

I have not read the Masterson book, but it sounds like one of many that I would like to read.  For me, I've relied on this website and other online literature to help me sort this out.  Going NC was an absolute must.  And allowing time to help heal and lift the fog.  

Schwing, thanks for your reply.  I agree.  She expressed a desire to "maintain balance" as she puts it, but when it came time to admit responsibility for her transgressions she would put the blame on everyone else but her.  I was just so stunned to find that what I was learning about BPD echoed much of her own verbage.  It was kind of creepy.




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RedRightHand
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2010, 04:45:29 AM »

Thanks for the reply!

I followed you for three paragraphs and then started to get lost a bit. I need time to mull over it a bit. What online literature do you suggest?
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