We're meeting up Thursday

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

It's been a year of mainly No Contact.  My exgf has been in therapy since June and wants to see me again and answer my questions without any pressure for anything more.  She wants to prove to me she can be trusted.  She finally left her live-in nanny job and is now a manager at a major department store, so she's not trying to hit me up for money.  I'm doubting whether she really has BPD or just has PTSD, anxiety, OCD.   From what I witnessed in the past she exhibited most of the criteria for BPD.   

The things that have me doubting are that she never really raged at me, when we were getting close it wasn't as intense as most people report it on here.  I never really got the "honeymoon" phase.    But I'm also not sure if I'm getting suckered again. I'm not sure that I'm not just entering the honeymoon phase now. I was devalued, and she admits to that and isn't shifting any blame to anyone.

I'm not getting back into a relationship with her right now, and even if it goes that way I'm dating her for a loong time before ever thinking about marriage again.  She admits to being emotionally abusive and taking me for granted.  She told me she pushed me away because my love scared her and she didn't think she deserved to be loved.  She told me she pulled me in because she felt badly that I wanted a relationship and she wasn't ready for one at the time.  I'm not sure what to think.  She said she wasn't ready for a relationship, yet she was trying to find one with multiple guys before.  She says she's eliminated them all from her life and realized I was the only one who loved her for more than her body and realizes what real love is now.  She's taking responsibility and not shifting it on God or her abusive childhood like she was doing before.  She now admits that what she did was cheating and said she was too ashamed of herself to admit that before.

I still love her, even after everything.  She seems to have problems with her memory though.  I told her I thought she has disassociation issues.  She claims she just has bad memory.  Some things that I bring up to her she claims she doesn't remember having happened, but doesn't deny that they may have.  I think that could be a major problem.  2 months ago she said I could talk to her therapist, but now she claims her therapist refuses to talk to me because it's not her policy to talk to outsiders.  She claims to keep asking her therapist and she won't budge.  She could be telling the truth, but  I feel I should be able to ask the therapist a few questions, or at least be able to request an e-mail saying that goes against her confidentiality policy.  Maybe I should demand an in-person meeting with the therapist before getting back into a relationship though.  My exgf told me she'd show me the receipts for her therapist and her psychiatrist.  But that doesn't prove that she's been telling her T what I want to discuss with her.  I don't know.  I feel like she's still trying to control the situation.     

I'm going to demand to look at her phone and read her texts  Thursday to make sure she hasn't been talking to some other guy this whole time.  If that's the case I'm walking out right then and there and not looking back.

[Valentine09]

It's been a year of mainly No Contact.  My exgf has been in therapy since June and wants to see me again and answer my questions without any pressure for anything more.  She wants to prove to me she can be trusted.  She finally left her live-in nanny job and is now a manager at a major department store, so she's not trying to hit me up for money.  I'm doubting whether she really has BPD or just has PTSD, anxiety, OCD.   From what I witnessed in the past she exhibited most of the criteria for BPD.   

The things that have me doubting are that she never really raged at me, when we were getting close it wasn't as intense as most people report it on here.  I never really got the "honeymoon" phase.    But I'm also not sure if I'm getting suckered again. I'm not sure that I'm not just entering the honeymoon phase now. I was devalued, and she admits to that and isn't shifting any blame to anyone.

I'm not getting back into a relationship with her right now, and even if it goes that way I'm dating her for a loong time before ever thinking about marriage again.  She admits to being emotionally abusive and taking me for granted.  She told me she pushed me away because my love scared her and she didn't think she deserved to be loved.  She told me she pulled me in because she felt badly that I wanted a relationship and she wasn't ready for one at the time.  I'm not sure what to think.  She said she wasn't ready for a relationship, yet she was trying to find one with multiple guys before.  She says she's eliminated them all from her life and realized I was the only one who loved her for more than her body and realizes what real love is now.  She's taking responsibility and not shifting it on God or her abusive childhood like she was doing before.  She now admits that what she did was cheating and said she was too ashamed of herself to admit that before.

I still love her, even after everything.  She seems to have problems with her memory though.  I told her I thought she has disassociation issues.  She claims she just has bad memory.  Some things that I bring up to her she claims she doesn't remember having happened, but doesn't deny that they may have.  I think that could be a major problem.  2 months ago she said I could talk to her therapist, but now she claims her therapist refuses to talk to me because it's not her policy to talk to outsiders.  She claims to keep asking her therapist and she won't budge.  She could be telling the truth, but  I feel I should be able to ask the therapist a few questions, or at least be able to request an e-mail saying that goes against her confidentiality policy.  Maybe I should demand an in-person meeting with the therapist before getting back into a relationship though.  My exgf told me she'd show me the receipts for her therapist and her psychiatrist.  But that doesn't prove that she's been telling her T what I want to discuss with her.  I don't know.  I feel like she's still trying to control the situation.     

I'm going to demand to look at her phone and read her texts  Thursday to make sure she hasn't been talking to some other guy this whole time.  If that's the case I'm walking out right then and there and not looking back.

[lostoc]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

[Valentine09]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

Hmmm, maybe I posted on the wrong board.  Care to elaborate? 

[phuzion]

I would be wary.  She may have said you could talk to her therapist before she actually asked her therapist if it would be okay.  Could be one explanation.  I just don't know if six months is enough, though.  I have been under the impression that it takes years.  As for her having BPD... .maybe, maybe not but the things you described are familiar to me, as well, and my ex was diagnosed BPD.  Also, you wanting to look at her phone is a sure sign that there is not enough trust to have a healthy relationship, perhaps you are not ready - and that is what you should be most concerned with, your state of mind and readiness, despite her claims of being ready.  How do you feel?  Thursday is close.  I would bounce this off friends or family who know the whole situation and get their opinion, too.

Lostoc... .that was an Admiral Ackbar line... ."It's a trap!" - whenever I hear someone say that, I think of Return of the Jedi and him saying that.

[Kenai 91]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

I think that he is say that the trap is  "I've changed".

I for one don't think people can change that quickly either.

Of course she will be sweet and "changed".   

On the other hand - if she doesn't think she's changed, then she would probably just try "fresh" with someone else.

If you are going to do this I'll ask you a question.   How miserable were you during the bad times?   Can you imagine being there again?   But now with a mortgage, two kids, ... .

Finally, if you are going to do this, I would test and retest the waters.   Not sure what I mean by that but you checking her cell phone is heading in the right direction.   go further though.   You are going to need to see her call history on her on-line web page.   She can delete her call history on her phone.

What are her spending habits?   How do she spend her time now?   How is she with her family these days?    What do they say?

Sounds like a lot of work... .

[Valentine09]

I just sent her an e-mail telling her that I'm setting a boundary that I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.  I just want to know that she's not making this person up.  You're right, I don't have enough trust to be in a relationship.  Meeting with her would be taking a step to building back trust.  If I look at her phone and see that there is no one on there that she's been talking to, I'll gain more trust.   I wanted to talk directly to her T to ask her questions about BPD, abandonment issues, disassociation, etc, just to get a professional opinion of whether they've discussed such things. Now that I've been denied access to that, I don't feel as good about meeting up.

Yeah, her spending habits seemed out of control when I was dating her before.  She claims it's under control and that she doesn't have a money problem.  Yet, she gets therapy heavily discounted through some kind of social services.  She claims she doesn't have anything to hide, that she'll show me her bank accounts, credit card statements, give me her e-mail passwords.  Yeah, it is probably too much work, and it's already stressing me out. 

[TonyC]

you dont need to have a face to face... .

this conversation could be had on the phone... .

look at one thing... .

you are trying to trust her... yet you are doing all the work...

shes suppossed to make all the plans... ., shes supposed to tell you how sorry she was, for this and that...

i say. you ask her ... what makes to day different... than yesterday...

what have you been diagnosed with and what is your treatment...

whats dbt?

ask her what make her deserve you

[Valentine09]

She claims that today is different than yesterday because she's been working through how her brother raped her as child with her therapist and how her actions up to this point in her life have gotten her pretty much nowhere.  It sounds like she's honestly trying in that regard, where a year ago she was flat out denying that the sexual abuse had any affect on her life and that what she was doing to me was wrong.  She says her therapist has diagnosed her with PTSD, anxiety, depression, and OCD.  She went to therapy on her own accord and has stayed in it.  But yes, I do feel like I am doing a lot of work just to get to a level of trust.  She claims she can't properly express herself over e-mail, which in some respects is legitimate.  I often will write an e-mail and forget to say something, or wish I hadn't said something else.  So that's the reason for the meetup, so she can say her peace.  I told her I thought she was trying to seduce me back into a relationship and she told me that offended her and was far from the the truth.  It wasn't unjustified, she's done that with other guys.  But she says she's done with her old life and realizes it leads nowhere and that this change is for good.   Could it be that she's just very troubled, has some BPD traits, and isn't necessarily a full-fledged BP?  She's self-aware enough to realize what she's doing is wrong, she outright admits it and apologized. Even the stuff she doesn't remember she admits as being cruel.  That would be my main concern, that she'll do stuff and then forget about it.  So I'd have to monitor her again and see if she acts up.   But yeah, I'm just trying to be content being single for now, and not get into a relationship for a while.

Oh, and she hasn't said she deserves me but did say we both deserve to be happy.  As for the why? I don't think she believes she deserves me per se, just that she's ready for a healthy relationship.  She just thinks that we had a really good connection as friends and that when I tried to take it to the next level she couldn't handle it.  And by the friend connection she means I didn't try to force myself on her sexually.  I'm not that kind of guy and she respects that part of me, and admits she took advantage of my kindness.  So she believes she can handle a real relationship now.  She keeps referring to how she's a good-hearted person and thinks of herself as such and that her behavior in the past wasn't the real her and she wants a chance for me to experience the real her.  I just think there needs to be a 3rd party to talk to about this, and if her T is unwilling to mediate  I don't know how that would be accomplished. 

[TonyC]

BPD or not... .lets say shes a woman with unacceptable behaviors...

a woman who has hurt you severly

But yeah, I'm just trying to be content being single for now, and not get into a relationship for a while.

once bitten twice shy right... you know her... .my ex and i got together after a nine month hiatus... she popped up? pledged her undying love for me... and how shes takin the meds... seen the worngs in her ways... .and she shouldnt have dissapeard  blah blah blah...

ive seen the light...

she said im ready to come home ive mended my ways.

i said... youve handed my ass to me so many times... .how do i trust you?

then she dictated her terms... a list... i replied you leaving me... put me back out there... and i like bein out there... so if you want to date... and see what happens im okay with that... .

but we are not a couple we are dating... i will have my life you will have yours... and maybe someday we will meet in the middle... .

she went bathit_ and cursed me out... .the rest you can figure out...

im not sayin your ex is like this... but maybe something for you to think about...

guard yourself, protect yourself... .and be vigilent...

you cant trust her motives, words... .untill you decide to , see if shes up to the task...

[Valentine09]

Hmmm, I have been trying to go out with other women.  Maybe I should let her know and see if she explodes. 

She flipped the tables on me today and said I was hurting her for insinuating that her trying to come back to me was to trap me into a marriage.  I wouldn't have told her that had she not mentioned thinking about doing that with another guy, albeit a year and a half ago.  Her excuse?  That was the past, this is now, I've changed and want to show you I've changed with my actions.  She wanted to discuss a "game plan" for how we communicate and treat each other.  Sounded legit, but if she has memory problems, seems like she'd be prone to forget and slip up.  I just don't know if she turns into a different person after marriage or not. 

I just want to pick her brain as to what she was thinking when she left me last.  She just said she wasn't ready to give up her selfish behaviors and the negative attention she got from other men.  And I want to know her therapist knows about this stuff at the very least, but that seems impossible now.  If I can't have access to her T I don't think I should proceed.  It's tricky because her therapy is subsidized mainly through the government, so they might have different rules than if she was paying for the therapy herself. 

The only thing I can really trust right now is that she said she's not ready for marriage or kids and doesn't want to pressure me for a relationship unless I want to have one. 

[Im.okay.now]

Hi Valentine

After all the progress you've made I hope this does not go KABOOM in your face. I don't have to tell you this but the track record for these kind of meetings usually send the non suspecting non-BPD person scurrying and writhing in more pain than round 1.

I wish you well and hope that your situation will be an exception

I remember the pain you were in in round 1

ION

[eman01]

Here's a thought. Tell her to contact you in 2 weeks if she still feels the same way about you. In the meantime go NC for those 2 weeks. You should be worth waiting for. If she's baiting others then she'll go for the first one who bites.

The more you engage with her by gauging your level of trust, the more she realizes you're on the hook and gains power over you. By the way you want to talk to her T and check her phone, etc. sounds like she's ahead in this game.

Make her do all the work. Actions not words.

[FreeToBe]

I have to agree with eman.  Great advice!

[Valentine09]

Here's a thought. Tell her to contact you in 2 weeks if she still feels the same way about you. In the meantime go NC for those 2 weeks. You should be worth waiting for. If she's baiting others then she'll go for the first one who bites.

The more you engage with her by gauging your level of trust, the more she realizes you're on the hook and gains power over you. By the way you want to talk to her T and check her phone, etc. sounds like she's ahead in this game.

Make her do all the work. Actions not words.

Yeah, since she's not letting me talk to her T when she originally said I could, and saying it's against policy it sounds very manipulative.  My therapist said if I let her back in that I should have a 3rd party there to mediate.  I ended it with her 2 months ago, and that was after ending it 6 months before that.  Haven't seen her since last November and she's been trying to get to me ever since.  Her level of interest in wanting to start up a relationship hasn't waned since about March, so she's been "interested" for over 7 months now.  I just got off the phone with my parents and they said I should probably stay away and it sounds like nothing has changed, and she's ignoring all my boundaries as per usual.  I'm hoping she gets off work soon and  e-mails back .  I'll let y'all know what she says about her T e-mailing me.  

[mindful]

Remember people believe what they need and want to believe... .her story is a very tight fit--- seduction?  (as in playing on vulnerability).   It sounds like another version of To Good To Be True.  The reality is--- I would suspect someone coming out of being abusive etc. etc.  would have many doubts... .gaps in her self knowledge, and would need to stand wobbly on her own for a while before she could navigate a relationship.

When someone goes NC from BPD--- I think it is like blood clotting on a wound.  Over time the wound heals and looks like most other skin--- but there is weakness and change, and a propensity to break down again under the right pressure or conditions.   There is this veil over our wounds if we have some time out from it-  but unexpected forces are at play.   Do you want her to make you feel good?  What is the process she has learned to deal with the intense fear and anger she feels?  Has she changed her relationship to her suffering?  Or are you the fix again?  So much of this is about taking responsibility for our suffering.  Have her talk about how she deals with suffering--- has she learned to stay with sadness, or is she running from it? 

Good Luck.   

[2010]

I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.

Any therapist who emails you with information about another person's therapy is in violation of HIPPA.  That law is there is protect third parties from infringing on the privacy of individual therapy.  Whatever is said in confidence to a therapist needs to be protected and that law was created for it.  Individual therapy is between two people, not three.  That means, you and I both get to talk to someone in confidence without another person triangulating (read definition) and butting into the therapy.  Unfortunately, the law is there because it needs to be due to "helicopter and " parents, spouses and even girlfriends and boyfriends.

Bottom line, if your girlfriend needs to prove to you that she has changed before you give her a second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth chance- and the proof comes out of the mouth of a therapist rather than due to her actions- then you really are setting yourself up for misinterpretation. Therapists are there to help one person get some insight- not two.  This therapist does not have you for a client- they have your girlfriend. A therapist is not aware of what your relationship with your girlfriend is like except for this perfect example of insistence that you are included. Therapists call that enmeshment, especially when you call and demand to speak to them about your girlfriend's therapy. Not only are you appearing controlling but you are asking for validation and approval from the therapist. Stop giving your power of attorney over to someone who sees your girlfriend once or twice a week for one hour.

Keep your therapies separate. Do not enmesh yourself in and possibly derail her therapy.  Her therapist doesn't need to email or call you.

If you wish to have couples counseling together- then talk to your girlfriend about it and if she agrees, set it up and make an appointment.

Borderline personality disorder is about persecutory feelings.  It is about being unable to manage a life outside of others.  It is the failure to separate/ individuate. Because of this, Borderlines often choose people who control and seek control in their adult lives. Therapy should seek to break free of these thoughts of helplessness. The therapist acts as a stand-in for the original controlling object so the Borderline can re-work and ultimately overcome the idea that they are kept prisoners.

I don't see how you are doing anything but adding on to this idea with your insistence that the Therapist give you an up to date synopsis of your girlfriend's therapy. 

[Kenai 91]

Someone said earlier that  "You are doing all the work here... ."       "She should be laying all this out for you".

Probably at this point already, you are Both stressed out.   Too much work.

My advice is.    You are putting a lot of effort into this just by all the writing, thinking, blogging.



Go ahead and date her.  If you really want to that is... .

Nothing romantic though.    Just hang out.   Hear her story.    Tell her what is going on with you (does she listen?)

Is that possible for you two?

Date other women.     Imagine that you could be with someone else, you don't HAVE to be with her.

Seems like you are looking too far down the road.

You are fortunate that you can still choose.   Many of us are too deep in.   3 children.   Too difficult to start over.

Choose wisely because you don't want to be in love with someone with loves only them self.    By loving them self I mean (it is more important to them to lie to you, do damaging things to your relationship - money, time, caring).   That is Narcissistic Self Love.    They say they hate them self but really, they Care only about their needs.   Is she one of those?  If so, just walk away now... .    now... . 

[TonyC]

as i read kanais post...

i had a flash back... ick

you know how somethimes you look at things in the realtionship... that made you question but not challenge the thing that happend?

our time frame is about right valentine... i was close to a year as you are... .and my ex surfaced...

it just dawned on me... .

my ex wanted me to give up the progress i had made, the girlfriends i had, my family... .

after all the therapies and meds... .she had a goal...

to put me back right where she wanted me... in that dark world only she and i existed in...

i know i couldnt do it... after about two weeks of dating... which she weanted to see me everynight... and stay over everynight... i got it... the only thing that changed was the calender...

but you have to look like an observer in a clinic... and have your inspection list... .and check off the boxes... .and evaluate...

[mornstar]

Wow, it's still so strange to read other ppl's posts and see so much of my story... .Anyway, yeah, all of the above. Be very careful, Valentine. I left my bf for a year and three months. It started back up innocently enough - a few emails about new cd's by our favorite bands, some jokes, stories about townies.

Then there were texts. We met up and went for a walk. Hugged. Kissed.

He promised he'd taken care of his ___. He was stronger and he could deal with whatever, and he'd be there to help me take care of my depression/low self-esteem.

I let myself get sucked back in. It was just like I always thought it would be - if he had actually gotten "better" then he would have seen how our relationship is toxic and probably never will work, therefore he'd leave me alone; if he was still "sick" then he'd still want me.

So, what does she really want from you?

[Valentine09]

I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.

Any therapist who emails you with information about another person's therapy is in violation of HIPPA.  That law is there is protect third parties from infringing on the privacy of individual therapy.  Whatever is said in confidence to a therapist needs to be protected and that law was created for it.  Individual therapy is between two people, not three.  That means, you and I both get to talk to someone in confidence without another person triangulating (read definition) and butting into the therapy.  Unfortunately, the law is there because it needs to be due to "helicopter and " parents, spouses and even girlfriends and boyfriends.

Bottom line, if your girlfriend needs to prove to you that she has changed before you give her a second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth chance- and the proof comes out of the mouth of a therapist rather than due to her actions- then you really are setting yourself up for misinterpretation. Therapists are there to help one person get some insight- not two.  This therapist does not have you for a client- they have your girlfriend. A therapist is not aware of what your relationship with your girlfriend is like except for this perfect example of insistence that you are included. Therapists call that enmeshment, especially when you call and demand to speak to them about your girlfriend's therapy. Not only are you appearing controlling but you are asking for validation and approval from the therapist. Stop giving your power of attorney over to someone who sees your girlfriend once or twice a week for one hour.

Keep your therapies separate. Do not enmesh yourself in and possibly derail her therapy.  Her therapist doesn't need to email or call you.

If you wish to have couples counseling together- then talk to your girlfriend about it and if she agrees, set it up and make an appointment.

Borderline personality disorder is about persecutory feelings.  It is about being unable to manage a life outside of others.  It is the failure to separate/ individuate. Because of this, Borderlines often choose people who control and seek control in their adult lives. Therapy should seek to break free of these thoughts of helplessness. The therapist acts as a stand-in for the original controlling object so the Borderline can re-work and ultimately overcome the idea that they are kept prisoners.

I don't see how you are doing anything but adding on to this idea with your insistence that the Therapist give you an up to date synopsis of your girlfriend's therapy. 

Point taken.  I don't want to derail her therapy and any progress she's made and I've told her this.  But how do I verify that what she's telling me is the truth?  I wanted to be able to ask her therapist why she doesn't think she has BPD?  Because if I were able to tell her T what went on in the past and what my exgf is telling me now she might have a different diagnosis.  I just have a strong feeling she's BPD, and if she's misdiagnosed it'll never really get treated.  So that's why I feel the need to talk to her therapist, so she'll have more info, even if I'm out of the picture at that point.

As far as I know they've only been discussing her childhood traumas, which is important, because that's at the core of why she is who she is.  She says she realizes now that the way she acted was wrong and doesn't want to continue to do that and act in that way.  She says that she feels horrible for inflicting the same pain on me that her ex-husband inflicted on her when he cheated.   Sounds like she's attempting to take ownership, but at the same time she says she's trying to move on and forget about the past (including her horrible treatment of me).

Couples counseling at some point would be necessary.  I'm thinking the main reason she feels attracted to me is because of the drama that this creates.  I think she likes having to prove herself worthy.  Because when I tried to be with her before she didn't have to prove anything and wasn't interested in me.  She e-mailed me last night and said that she doesn't want to be with me because I'm convenient and that I'm worth fighting for, and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.  I wonder if I should just pretend to give in and say "okay I trust you" and see if the abusive behavior doesn't pop right back up. 

[TonyC]

and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.



why does she need to make that sound like an ultimatum... .

im not likin it either valentine... .

this is not the way to win you over       now is it

[Valentine09]

and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.



why does she need to make that sound like an ultimatum... .

im not likin it either valentine... .

this is not the way to win you over       now is it

No it isn't winning me over.  I just e-mailed her and asked if she still feels like she needs other men's attention and if she'll always say no to other guys. This was her response:

"I was trying to explain why you're not convenient... .and also that I'm not desperate. It's very easy to say no now, and I'm very aware of what I want. Not going to settle like I have in the past."

[TonyC]

I was trying to explain why you're not convenient... .and also that I'm not desperate. It's very easy to say no now, and I'm very aware of what I want. Not going to settle like I have in the past."

valentine you know her... .does she have a problem making straight up statements...

like

is she capable of saying... .i love you and want to be with you?

[Valentine09]

"is she capable of saying... .i love you and want to be with you?"

Yes, she's said that a lot recently.  But she also told me that in the past and says she doesn't remember.  So I'm going to question her more about that.  I don't know, this is all very shaky.  She said the last time we were in a relationship she wasn't ready and just got in it to make me happy.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  She can remember some of the bad stuff she did, but somethings she doesn't remember doing.  The fact that I have to remind her of everything she did just tells me not enough has changed if anything.  She just lumps everything that happened as the past and says that the past is over with and won't happen again.  She claims she just has a bad memory.  I think her mind disassociates from the bad things.  She'll just try to put a positive spin on everything, which is annoying when you've been hurt.  She wants me to get over the past and start fresh with her.  I'd maybe give her a month or two of relationship time, but if I'm not convinced then I'd have to shut her out for good.  

Also, she kind of justifies her cheating on her ex-husband by saying that he cheated on her first and was doing illegal activities.  That doesn't really sit well with me.  I'd never cheat, but she has taken things about me and blown them out of proportion to have a reason not to like me.  She admits to this, but seems like it could easily happen again and she could then justify cheating on me.

[Valentine09]

My main fears about her are:



She'll start thinking false thoughts about me again and blow them out of proportion to make her look like a victim:  She claims she won't do this again and feels it was wrong of her to do it the last time.  That she didn't want to get attached to me because she felt she wasn't deserving of someone like me.

That she'll feel victimized and eventually leave me for someone else: As I posted before she claims her ex-husband cheated on her, refused to go to counseling, was a porn addict, and was making false statements to the government and she didn't want to go to jail because of his lies and that's why she left him.  It's not something I can really verify, except that I did find a post she made on the internet forum when she was still married asking whether she should leave her husband for a man she met and the only grounds she mentioned was that he wasn't a Christian.  Everyone on the forum told her not to yet she continued on with her affair which eventually ended.  She has owned up to cheating on everyone she's ever been with and says she feels ashamed for having done that.



The push/pull behavior will start up again: She claims the reason for this was that she didn't want to get attached before but that she didn't want to lose me either, but now she's ready to attach and not let go.  She said that before she wanted to push me away because my love scared her, but that she's overcome that with therapy because her self-esteem has been lifted.

[Im.okay.now]

Valentine

With all due respect ... .this is nuts ... .you're not even back with her and she is driving you nuts and questioning yourself and questioning your moves and her moves already !

I'm no expert but i'm pretty sure that 2 people coming together isn't supposed to be like that. It should be beautiful ... .not this crazy and complicated stuff.

Sorry but the more i read this the less it makes sense to me.

[FreeToBe]

ION is right on here.

What a huge pain in the a55 this sounds like to me.  You seem to be a very decent, caring person Valentine. I know the hold she has on you, but is it really worth it?  Aren't you worth more?  Don't you deserve to have someone love you the same way you love them, with no bs? 

Its so hard to totally let go of them, but I think you owe it to yourself to be your own protector - and I know that's what you are doing with all the questions, but its not enough here man... . 

Even if she has changed for the better 100%, won't it eventually creep in that she still treated you like mud?  Will you ever truly forgive or forget that?

She has an answer for everything doesn't she? 

There are women out there that won't do this kinda stuff (so I'm told)... .   I hope you do what's best for you.  What is it about her really?  Is it even about her?

Hang in there man.

[vitalsigns]

Don't show, and then don't look back.

NC!

Take your power back!

[Im.okay.now]

There are women out there that won't do this kinda stuff (so I'm told)... .

Guaranteed ... .i have one ... .she acts in a way that i never have to wonder what foot to dance on, or worry about when the shoe will drop, or make me feel like i have to walk on eggshells ... .

It is well worth the wait, the search, the time or whatever you want to call it ! This should not be hard work or confusing or cause all of this anxiety ? It shouldn't be a battle.

Valentine - i don't know you ... .but you do sound like a good guy from what i've read in the last year or so ... .one way or the other ... .i think you are a good person that deserves better than this. Let yourself have a shot at better !

Unless of course this is what you "want"  ... .to never know ... .to never be able to trust ... .to never be able to believe her ... .to never know when she will drop you lying there half dead dead in the middle of the street ... .to never know when you'll get sideswiped out of nowhere ... .to never know if you are coming or going ... .to never know when you'll receive the next text telling you that she can't see you anymore ... .etc ... .etc ... .etc ... .

ION

[eman01]

Hey V, seems like you're in the spin cycle and it doesn't matter what advice anyone gives right now. It sounds like you really want to be with her. Sometimes you need to go through another spin cycle or more to finally wring out all the dirt. Only you can make that choice. Good luck and know that you'll get support over here when she finally wrings you dry.