Intimacy

[grimalkin]

grim

He always hoped the next one would be better.

This is worrying, isn't it. It means that he is always on the look-out for another, a better, a newer person/toy/salvation.

I remember that during the last years I had been looking at women and thinking will she be the new girlfriend? Quite mad, isn't it.

While he was in a relationship with me (and his other girlfriends before me) he must have been on the lookout for somebody else all the time. How stressful for all parties involved.

 

I don't think mine was always on the lookout for a new partner while IN a relationship.  He had extended periods where he was alone.  Three years before we got together.  He is comfortable by himself, probably more comfortable than when he's with someone else.

He claims that I was the last, that he can't love anyone else now.  I think that might be true, knowing him, to a point; he WON'T love anyone else.  I don't think he'll try.  He told me several times that he was comfortable with the idea of being alone for the rest of his life, before I came along and he decided to give it one final shot.

Addressing another issue: there was real intimacy between us, even if it was intensified by BPD.  I don't think sex is always the same "tool" for every BP.  Mine was definitely trying to get me to stay in the beginning, and sex was his way of expressing this need, but I do believe he was genuine.  hen again, I knew he was needy and scared and that it was playing out this way, and I was more than happy to be there for him.

Grim

[gecko2012]

I don't think she could handle someone that LOVED her with in her entirity because she HATES herself so much.

I am not sure if he hated himself so much or just did not love himself. Is there a difference? I think so. He does not love himself and he does not love others. [/quote]
Gutz - -

As usual you made me step back and ponder... .

Loved themselves vs. Hated Themselves

Here are my thoughts:

CAVEAT: I have discounted EVERYTHING she told me as at least partial lies - so I am basing this off my observations/intuition/empathy (MINE)

Loved themselves:

No she did not love herself.

She was actively destroying her body (Prescription Drugs/Alcohol/Recreational Drugs on occasion/stress/BULIMIA/unsafe sex) and I have begun to think she was a cutter too.

One example:  Her hair was falling out bc of Bulimia and stress BUT every 5 weeks she got her hair died a different color and had done so since 14.  I may not be a stylist but as a metro-sexual I even know that dying your hair that often DESTROYS your hair (BTW - -feel free to comment on different hair colors I have been pondering that too)

She was GORGEOUS and turned heads EVERYWHERE we went and she could not see it.

on and on and on.

She was trained in Pshcy and could list all her issues and the text book way to handle them BUT she never would step up BUT insisted I get help (for she had done to me Ironically)

Hated Themselves:

When she would spiral and it appears to happen to varying degrees every four weeks or so.

She HATED herself plain and simple.

She would start secretly purging.

She would eat CRAP take out WITH THE INTENTION of purging.

She would trace lines on her wrist with Kitchen knives.

She would PUSH me away then PULL me back (cycling)

These are my thoughts... .

[ArtistGuy70]

I don't think she could handle someone that LOVED her with in her entirity because she HATES herself so much.

I am not sure if he hated himself so much or just did not love himself. Is there a difference? I think so. He does not love himself and he does not love others.

Gutz - -

As usual you made me step back and ponder... .

Loved themselves vs. Hated Themselves

Here are my thoughts:

CAVEAT: I have discounted EVERYTHING she told me as at least partial lies - so I am basing this off my observations/intuition/empathy (MINE)

Loved themselves:

No she did not love herself.

She was actively destroying her body (Prescription Drugs/Alcohol/Recreational Drugs on occasion/stress/BULIMIA/unsafe sex) and I have begun to think she was a cutter too.

One example:  Her hair was falling out bc of Bulimia and stress BUT every 5 weeks she got her hair died a different color and had done so since 14.  I may not be a stylist but as a metro-sexual I even know that dying your hair that often DESTROYS your hair (BTW - -feel free to comment on different hair colors I have been pondering that too)

She was GORGEOUS and turned heads EVERYWHERE we went and she could not see it.

on and on and on.

She was trained in Pshcy and could list all her issues and the text book way to handle them BUT she never would step up BUT insisted I get help (for she had done to me Ironically)

Hated Themselves:

When she would spiral and it appears to happen to varying degrees every four weeks or so.

She HATED herself plain and simple.

She would start secretly purging.

She would eat CRAP take out WITH THE INTENTION of purging.

She would trace lines on her wrist with Kitchen knives.

She would PUSH me away then PULL me back (cycling)

These are my thoughts... .[/quote]
Well, I know she does not like herself and I am sure she hates herself at certain times every day. She is filled with shame. This is why she projects so much. Self loathing.

The hair thing is interesting. She was complaining over the last year or so about her hair loss, hence she got it cut short. She blamed stress but now I wonder if an eating disorder was involved. She lost A LOT of weight over the last year. She attributed it to other things but I brought up the possibility of her eating habits to her. She was very defensive about it, saying she had issues like that in her younger days but not now. Now it makes me wonder. All those prescription meds and eating problems are not a  happy mix.

She used to harm herself in her teen years. No idea about now.

[innerspirit]

Well, this is my take on it: I think BPD or NPD, they know how tender an issue intimacy is for themselves, for us.  I mean it is essentially by definition, isn't it? -- it needs vulnerability and trust.  In my marriage, X was close and vulnerable to the point of being a Velcro toddler when he regressed (like IMMEDIATELY before or after sex); his adult mode during sex was as a threatened control freak.  Really weird Oedipal stuff.

Even if it's *nonverbal, if laughter is forbidden (as was the case in the bedroom here) -- what powerful communication.  So regardless of how they act out in the moment, it's fuel for weighty drama.  Even if intimacy feels warm, passionate, sensitive and "normal", it's an extreme to play against the next time around.  Or it can be just sex, detached and distant.  Or it can be with a growing list of complaints and demands... .and on and on... .

And wow is it painful to have to zone out and disassociate just to keep the peace.

Outwardly the NON is the comparative constant but the pwPD can be anywhere on the roulette wheel.  I think it gives them, consciously or no, a sense of control/power to know that they have taken the role of the inconsistent partner.  Maybe that's to make up for their own performance anxiety, a bigger issue than the connection.

In the middle of the night one night X awoke in a panic from a  nightmare, woke me to tell me about it, expecting me to be the comforter -- he dreamed we were having sex and I had boxing gloves inside pummeling him.  Somehow I found the words to say it was horrific and I couldn't be the one to help him with it.

(*It just occurs to me, thank goodness we can be NON-verbal here.  At last breaking the painful silence.)

[gutzgutz]

Well, I know she does not like herself and I am sure she hates herself at certain times every day. She is filled with shame. This is why she projects so much. Self loathing.

artistguy & gecko:

I don't think that self loathing is self hatred. Shame, yes this is interesting. My ex was always full of shame, and this is unhealthy and sad.

I came across a book called 'The psychology of shame' by Kaufman

www.books.google.co.uk/books?id=YZFEzl4SuU4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+psychology+of+shame,+kaufman&source=bl&ots=siiJb63JDo&sig=Ra6nyZmUPelVCMSLjaP9OYvHwNQ&hl=en&ei=MHHITNHPGdHPjAeV37B4&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Really interesting, discussing Freud, Horney and others and their theories on shame.

It makes one feel sorry for the people with PD who have actually been put into this shame carousel, I think that my ex has been put there and there seems no escape for him and others as long as he is not able to address it via therapy.

Even if it's *nonverbal, if laughter is forbidden (as was the case in the bedroom here) -- what powerful communication

That is an interesting one, laughter was forbidden in the bedroom as he felt threatened (in his masculinity?). I sometimes was just happy and giggled and also threw my arms around and he always hated this. I got a bit timid over time.

[finallyhappy]

In the begining, it was amazing. He was sweet, affectionate, extremely demonstrative, He could say the most loving things. Over the course of our relationship, it turned abusive and I was verbally attacked about my technique or lack there of, I wasn't sexy or sultry enough. This hit me to my core and I wasn't able to have any type of comfort level to have any sort of physicial closeness. I always thought I was doing it wrong or wasn't turning him on. It was a sick circle that there wasn't any escaping.

[gutzgutz]

In the begining, it was amazing. He was sweet, affectionate, extremely demonstrative, He could say the most loving things. Over the course of our relationship, it turned abusive and I was verbally attacked about my technique or lack there of, I wasn't sexy or sultry enough. This hit me to my core and I wasn't able to have any type of comfort level to have any sort of physicial closeness. I always thought I was doing it wrong or wasn't turning him on. It was a sick circle that there wasn't any escaping.

ditto

in between it was great and warm and tender and exciting, too. Then he found fault. Then it was fine. This was really like you said hitting the core. Interesting that his first experience with a woman was with a prostitute. An older friend of his had paid for this.

[innerspirit]

Even if it's nonverbal, if laughter is forbidden (as was the case in the bedroom here) -- what powerful communication

That is an interesting one, laughter was forbidden in the bedroom as he felt threatened (in his masculinity?). I sometimes was just happy and giggled and also threw my arms around and he always hated this. I got a bit timid over time.

Yeah, to put it delicately, he warned me that it was a biological fact: no guy would be able to laugh and still perform.  And no guy ever allow a girl to laugh in the bedroom.  

In other words, the physical change in X would be my fault.

Really sad that he must have thought I'd be laughing at him.  This is a guy with a fabulous, quick sense of humor and he robbed our closest moments of joy.   :'(

[WalrusGumboot]

Yeah, to put it delicately, he warned me that it was a biological fact: no guy would be able to laugh and still perform.  And no guy ever allow a girl to laugh in the bedroom.  

Of course you know this biological fact is nonsense. Laughter is a sign of being at ease and comfortable. The best performances in the bedroom, at least for men, is when they feel at ease and confident. Sex is supposed to be fun. What could better enhance the experience than expressing the fun through laughter, unless he felt your laugh was directed at his performance.

I wish I had more laughter in the bedroom. It became to tension-filled and mechanical. Tension and stress kills the moment and kills the desire, and what could have been a great moment of intimacy becomes a very un-fulfilling experience.

[innerspirit]

Of course you know this biological fact is nonsense. Laughter is a sign of being at ease and comfortable. The best performances in the bedroom, at least for men, is when they feel at ease and confident. Sex is supposed to be fun. What could better enhance the experience than expressing the fun through laughter, unless he felt your laugh was directed at his performance.

I wish I had more laughter in the bedroom. It became to tension-filled and mechanical. Tension and stress kills the moment and kills the desire, and what could have been a great moment of intimacy becomes a very un-fulfilling experience.

can I quote you?  (Oh yeah I just did.)

Thanks WGB.   x

No the laughter was never directed at his performance.  I could never be that cruel or demeaning, and I told him so.  (And I didn't have reason to laugh at him.)

And of course if he laughed even in spite of himself then everything was ok.   Like the one Christmas Eve that the Hallelujah Chorus on TV was with perfect timing.  Sad -- that should be a special memory. 

He believed that I'd be too ashamed to ask another guy about stuff like this, so he could say almost anything.  He made up a bunch of men-vs.-women faux-truisms that ultimately pushed me away.