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Author Topic: 2.02 | Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)  (Read 57167 times)
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2016, 10:56:18 AM »

Thank you to the original writers of this workshop. So short, but so helpful. Reading this gave me a smile, because it captured the futility of the JADE'ing approach I've been using and it gave me hope.
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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 10:19:34 PM »

Okay, I have read all this... .I think I understand JADE, but what is SET, GIVE and DEARMAN?
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 10:59:56 PM »

SET = Sympathy, Empathy, Truth - a good conversational structure technique. Probably described elsewhere - but when you listen to someone pouring their heart to you, express sympathy first, then empathy, then (if required) add truth. "It must be horrible to feel that your best friend hates you. I would feel horrible too if I was in that situation. Perhaps that's not quite what she meant by that statement... .?"

DEARMAN = Describe the situation, Express what you want, Assert the benefits, Reinforce your point, then listen with Mindfulness, Appear confident and Negotiate
www.mindfulnessmuse.com/dialectical-behavior-therapy/using-d-e-a-r-m-a-n-to-get-what-you-want

GIVE = not sure!
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 12:34:14 PM »

I JADE often. My God, do I JADE!

It's what kept me around him for so long. My need to justify, argue, defend, and explain myself. I thought that if I used my empathy and translated into a language he'd understand that I would be able to make him see my POV. Not necessarily agree with me because a lot of our arguments were actually about things we agreed with (funny, I know) and also I feel some things are too subjective to agree on, but mostly so he could understand where I was coming from. It didn't work at all, it led to more misunderstandings, more frustration, and staying together longer than we should have. I'm working on this right now. Our last fight I was so exhausted from years of JADEing that I had an epiphany: don't do it anymore. He will never see your POV and he will never have empathy for you. It's not how he's wired. Now I'm working on being accepting of this without continuing the friendship.
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2017, 10:54:03 AM »

Okay, I have read all this... .I think I understand JADE, but what is SET, GIVE and DEARMAN?

Hi 12years,

We have lots of information about S.E.T. and DEARMAN here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0

Hope it helps!

heartandwhole
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« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2017, 10:44:04 PM »

One of the things that I struggled with a lot when I began trying to improve my situation was JADE’ing. I was caught in circuitous thinking.

If she would only understand why I really did what I did.
She’s completely wrong, if she only knew the truth.
How can she say those things about me? I need to let her know what really happened.
If I can only explain the reality of the situation.


These were very common thought patterns in which I engaged. My belief was that if I did not change her mind, I would lose her. What was actually happening was that I was making things worse.

JADE’ing is a very common thing for us to do. Why do we do it?
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« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2017, 10:59:25 PM »

Though my situation is far more different from those on here, I did it because I was hoping it would bring him and I back to the friendship we had before things went south.

He liked to talk to me and said it helped him.  That was the primary reason why I wanted to justify talking.

But as with any BPD talking will only be on their terms.  As a result... .in my case I want to be in a safe zone.  But before I decided to do so, I really wanted to make things work.
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2017, 05:55:32 AM »

Why do we do it?

Control.
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2017, 06:55:21 AM »

Why do we do it?  

The desire to be understood.
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2017, 02:31:43 PM »

JADE’ing is a very common thing for us to do. Why do we do it?

in my case it was partly about being right (it was for the reasons others mentioned as well). id been a wounded puppy in previous relationships.

when my ex would start raging (usually by text) i knew it was usually best to exit the conversation and let her cool off (although i would learn later thats not always the best idea, it can become a power move, and it can also escalate things). shed get a line in, id read it, and id just have to one up her and get a dig in. i guess it made me feel superior, or something like that; "strong" where i hadnt been in previous relationships.

drama. i dont know if id say i "liked it" but it must have had some appeal.
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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »

If she would only understand why I really did what I did.

How can she say those things about me? I need to let her know what really happened.


These two hit home. They pretty much go hand in hand in a lot of cases between me and my GF because often times when something does happen that she feels was done maliciously and/or in a deceitful manner (as examples) she would couple her emotions behind what I'd done (really, the emotions that were caused for her in what had happened) with attacking my character. One thing I pride myself very highly in is that I live by 3 basic standards: Loyalty, Honesty, Respect.

When those pieces of me are attacked and I do take it very personally. I've had to learn that in those moments her feelings are making her feel like I've compromised those personal standards. Not that she believes I am disloyal, dishonest, or disrespectful... I happen to know she doesnt think that at all. But the emotion created also causes the momentary "He IS a liar/disrespectful/disloyal" ... .For the most part knowing that has curved my urge to JADE, but it is still a work in progress.

The other part is, for me its always been very important to understand things. It makes me feel better about whatever is going on. Understanding means being in control. As in, I can control my response or reaction appropriately because I "get it."

So, when something would happen that I knew was taken the wrong way, I felt a need to set the record straight. Fact is... .that just never did any good.
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2017, 02:59:55 PM »

When those pieces of me are attacked and I do take it very personally. I've had to learn that in those moments her feelings are making her feel like I've compromised those personal standards. Not that she believes I am disloyal, dishonest, or disrespectful... I happen to know she doesnt think that at all. But the emotion created also causes the momentary "He IS a liar/disrespectful/disloyal" ... .For the most part knowing that has curved my urge to JADE, but it is still a work in progress.

i think this is key. learning to see and understand anothers perspective (listening with empathy), accepting it as valid and not invalidating it or necessarily trying to change it. it can really suck away that tendency to JADE.
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2017, 03:27:24 PM »

For me, it was about, at the root of everything, insecurities.

It was my need to feel that she understood why I did things in hopes that she would find me "good enough" and stop being so angry and upset.

It was my need to feel heard.

It was my need to prove to her that I was right and "good enough."
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« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »

Why do we do it?

How about "in order to exist as a person in a relationship and not as a coach, therapist or caretaker?"
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« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2017, 11:15:12 AM »

What do you mean PnC?
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« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2017, 08:40:55 PM »

Why do we do it?

I was just going to say "to be right"... .I'm going where Meili was already headed but I would add that beyond feeling good enough... .being "right" so that you can feel superior to the other person.  I did much of that in my co-dependent/alcoholic marriage, because we too get something from doing the dysfunctional co-dependent dance.  I'm right! I'm better than you! I feel better about myself!

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« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2017, 09:48:32 AM »

For myself I thought JADEing would help him see things my way. Having a clear understanding of both sides in a conflict is so important to me that I just naturally went to describing my reasoning for doing what I was doing. And I would get so frustrated that he refused to even consider my side of things.

Don't JADE has significantly changed the way I handle conflict with my H. And it works. Amazingly! I still have to fight the urge because it's natural to want to defend yourself in the midst of blame and accusation. When we have significant fights, looking back it always comes down to I began to JADE.
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« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2017, 12:11:30 PM »

I mentioned this in another thread, I mentally think not JADE when the situation arises, I was on vacation in August, I was visiting my parents and my dad has very black and white thinking, I didn't understand the psych until I signed up for bpdfamily anyways he starts talking about religion and politics, topics that I generally stay away from because they're so polarizing. I'm listening to him, you don't get a chance to talk because he dominates every conversation and talks about himself, and I think "don't JADE" I don't know how much time I wasted trying to convince him with my point of view or a different one and I used to get frustrated and take it personally but it's his ego that gets in the way, he can't make himself look bad so he'll argue with you.

I hadn't seen him for awhile and I use don't JADE often, he's giving me his opinion and I've gone down this road a million times with him and I think that he noticed something different this time, he turned at me and said "Are you just going to sit there and say nothing? Don't you have an opinion?" I smiled and just said "An opinion is just an opinion" and left it at that. It was awesome to be able to approach him with tools that I learned for my exuBPDw and take control of myself and just let it all slide off my back  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2017, 02:18:36 PM »

JADE saved my sanity.
It was the first skill I learnt and used and it is AMAZING 
I use it with my mum as well, very helpful with family.
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 03:08:05 AM »

I find it much easier to not JADE when he's talking about somebody else, but when things get personal (it usually does), I have a hard time controlling myself.  I guess he knows how to hit it where it hurts, to attack me in areas in which I am already shaky.  In an urge to "prove" myself (never works by the way), I JADE.

Just re-read the thread and realise I have posted here years ago.  I guess I'm getting complacent and have reverted to my old ways.  But I understand why I JADE- it hurts to have the closest person in your life telling you you've failed them, and they have never, ever felt loved by you!  You don't want to believe it! 

So should I just let it go?  Meaning don't take his words to heart too much, just know that it comes from a place of hurt feelings, and try to validate those feelings?
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 04:03:17 AM »

Hi Chosen,

It's human nature to JADE sometimes. In the heat of the moment, I'm not good at avoiding it, either.

So should I just let it go?  Meaning don't take his words to heart too much, just know that it comes from a place of hurt feelings, and try to validate those feelings?

I think that's a good plan. I know it can be difficult—you're right: we don't want to believe it!

When a pwBPD (or anyone, for that matter) says, "I've never felt loved by you," that is coming from within them and not necessarily a reflection of anything you've done or not done. In other words, no matter how much you bend over backwards to show someone how much they mean to you, they may not be able to take it in; to feel it. In my view, that's down to one's own capacity to feel loved (to open, to receive, to believe, etc.).

Of course, that doesn't mean that we don't keep showing our care and love. Smiling (click to insert in post) Have you tried S.E.T. when these kinds of statements come up? That would validate his feelings and give the responsibility of taking care of them back onto him. I think many of us don't communicate well what specific actions from our partners would make us feel loved.

heartandwhole
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2019, 02:16:28 AM »

Hi guys so this is a great thread. I came here because I am in a bit of a crisis mode and trying to remember how to navigate it. So if I am being accused of doing something or being motivated by something for example missing my train stop to get home means that I don’t care about anything and I’m irresponsible and just callous person. Obviously things are blown out of proportion and my instinct when being insulted and threatened is to protect myself and logically say this isn’t a rational response. But I understand that it would perpetuate the argument cycle. So instead my understanding is if it is too heated I need to take a time out( go to the gym, take a walk) and when she( my aunt) calms down use S.E.T to explain my truth? I am just trying to understand how to communicate my view of the situation? Maybe it’s magical thinking but somehow I’m hoping that once I keep using these techniques maybe her behavior would change... .or only my perception would?
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« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2019, 12:38:46 PM »

This is all so very insightful! I am guilty of a lot of this behavior. As others have mentioned, it is exceptionally hard for me when I am being falsely accused of something or my character is being attacked. *You don't love me. *You always make yourself the victim. *You're too sensitive. *You get off on making mad, you're a psycho.

These types of things infuriate me and crush me at the same time. Often my BPDgf will try to say things that are hurtful and insulting - likely to lure me into JADEing. I've gotten much better about it when it comes to certain things. Criticism for example, her always having to be better at everything than me. I can deal with that, and generally do without engaging in JADE. *You're not cooking the eggs right. *You suck at putting that together. *You're not doing the laundry well enough.
All of these things I can usually take in stride and just brush them off. But she knows how to push my buttons. She knows telling me I don't love her results in me swearing that I do. She knows that telling me I don't show how much I care results in me listing off the ways in which I try to.

As I begin to practice avoiding JADEing more and more, I notice that it gets harder. She wants to lure me in, in any way possible. If I JADE, we all know what happens. If I walk away, I'm a child, I don't care, I'm an a**h***, I'm avoiding. Then she talks out loud to herself, saying all of the things she knows will upset me so I can hear them. But if I go back to address them, she only gets more venomous. If I'm quiet, or agree with her, she says "I know. I'm used to it." (Another thing that super triggers me - it is one of her ways of comparing me and grouping me with everyone else.) Finally, if I disengage completely or don't feed into it, she threatens, either verbally or with actions. Meaning, she will tell me she's done and she's leaving me. Or she will start packing her things. Or she will trash a room. Again, a catch 22. If I ignore her, I don't care and I WANT her to leave - I prove that I don't love her. If I engage, she screams in my face, the fighting continues and often escalates. I become the "psycho" she accuses me of being. If I show emotion, crying or being upset, I'm a child, a baby, too sensitive, a "battered gf." It always feels like a lose/lose situation for me.

Of course I see how self confidence plays a role. I've always had an issue with being falsely accused of things. I love with every part of me, so it destroys me when someone says I don't care. I'm a people-pleaser, so of course it gets under my skin when I can't make the one I love happy. It just kills me that no matter what I do, or don't do, it is wrong. And even if I avoid JADE in the moment, even if I sit through all the berating and verbal/emotional attacks, I STILL get pulled into the circle of trying to JADE later - when I have to explain WHY I walked away, or that I DO care but knew fighting wasn't resolving anything. Otherwise, THAT is held against me going forward.

Sometimes it feels like there is literally no solution other than to A) be perfect in the first place or B) show "acceptance" of the fact that I suck at everything and should spend forever being told as much and apologizing for it afterward.  It makes me want to pull my hair out of my head!!
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« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2019, 11:58:58 PM »

This is an excellent workshop! I've been not JADEing for years (thanks to this site) and it has made a huge difference in how often we fight.

Explaining or even defending isn't a problem when they are stable and communication is going well. The problem is, we usually get hooked into JADEing when they are already emotional or on their way to dysregulation.

I think the first step in learning not to JADE is really ACCEPTING that your partner has a mental disorder. A lot of people say they accept that, but then treat their partner as if they are a non and expect to have rational responses.

Understand that it really is a mental disorder. Sometimes you are dealing with your partner and sometimes you are dealing with pure bpd (of course, all of it is part of the personality of your loved one but sometimes the behaviour is straight from bpd and they don't know how to control it).

Learn to distinguish when it is your person speaking and when it is the bpd. Then you can start detaching from the bpd... not feeding it.

Living with bpd is difficult for the person suffering from it. Emotions are huge and often overwhelming. Little things that wouldn't bother us or that we can brush off, will build inside a pwbpd until they feel like they will explode.

They may start baiting you, or even go straight to attacking you, for a number of reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with you.

They may be in a bad mood and, because of the disorder, don't know how to deal with it. So they will try to pull you into that mood or use you to offload the feelings. You may have said or done something to trigger them - or nothing. It could have been someone or something else. Or nothing!

And sometimes, unfortunately, they just want a fight. Pwbpd both hate and love the heightened emotions of a fight or drama and if they can pull you into it,
it is validating for them. It also gives them a chance to offload feelings. As my husband says, "Get it all out!"

Also, pwbpd often have NPD traits and want to put you down. It's about control.
Or sometimes it's a way to make you feel as bad as they do when they're having a bad day.

All of this is unhealthy behaviour and not getting drawn into the drama is the healthiest thing you can do for yourself and your relationship.

If someone is verbally abusing you, attacking your character or making untrue statements about you, it's natural to want to defend yourself or to correct the untrue judgements.

But if you do that when they are already emotional or on the way to dysregulating, they won't be able to hear you. All it sounds like to them is you invalidating them, dismissing their feelings, or telling them that what they believe (in that moment) is wrong.

Pwbpd spend a lifetime being told that they are wrong; when you do it, expect push back.

So when you start justifying your actions, arguing, defending yourself, or trying to explain "what really happened", it will just spark off higher emotions.

At best, you will find yourself in a circular argument that just goes round and round with no resolution and both of you becoming more frustrated.
At worst it will escalate into full blown dysregulation and fighting. No one wins.

Sometimes, if it's really out of control, the pwbpd can disassociate - meaning they will go over the top and lose all control. Suicide threats, physical violence, and the "scorched earth" policy - so much damage that it is hard to come back from - are the results. Worst of all, if they go that far, they usually won't remember anything... leaving you broken.

So learn to accept when it's the bpd talking and let it go. Save it for another day, when you are both in a good place and can talk about it with love.

If there was a crazy person on your street, mumbling to himself and yelling at the cars, would you go out and argue with him?

The crazy making word salad that your bpd engages in when they're having an episode is just the same. Don't argue with a mental illness.. you won't win.
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2019, 12:05:11 AM »

Sorry, this is a long post so I've broken it in two... I hope it helps someone out there who is struggling.

As others have said, if you can find something to validate - and pwbpd are usually very clever at taking a grain of truth and twisting it - then by all means, validate what you can.

Successfully listening to the feelings behind the words and validating what is reasonable can nip a dysregulation in the bud and create better communication.

But if your person is just trying to pick a fight, bored and looking for some action, it's always better to refuse to engage.

Some people think that not JADEing is weak. We are taught to defend ourselves and to not defend yourself is a sign of weakness. But in this situation, when there is mental illness involved, you have to learn new strategies.

That's not to say you can never mention it or just have to shut up and take abuse!

With pwbpd, timing is everything.

Find a time when you are both relaxed and calm and discuss the problem in a loving way. Listen carefully when they tell you how they felt or what was happening for them. Validate. State your feelings in a calm and loving way.
Keep the conversation focused on problem solving. Don't get emotional, and don't blame and shame.

State boundaries. I might say "When you yell at me or start insulting me, I can't stay and listen to it. It doesn't do either of us any good. To protect our love, I will leave the room. It doesn't mean I'm leaving you - I'm just going to get some space and calm down so we don't get into a fight.
It would be great if you can do the same and then, if you want to talk about it later, we can - in loving way."

You might need to have this conversation in various different ways several times for it to stick. I did. And you must be consistent in enforcing your boundary by leaving.

It can take a while - it has really taken years to get to a very good place. But not JADEing, validating when I can, and having boundaries has made all the difference in our 14 year relationship.

Now, when I'm being baited or things start to get heated, I will say (very calmly!) something like "I am not getting into a fight with you," and I leave the room for a while.

He knows why I'm doing it because we've had that conversation many times. He knows I'm not leaving him. But he also knows I won't engage.

I'm not reactive. I don't raise my voice. I keep my facial expressions and body language loose. I'm detached from it and calm. I know bpd is in the room.

Asking open questions is also good. Sometimes, depending on the situation, I might ask: "Are you trying to start a fight with me?" It's a good way to get them to stop and think. Sometimes, it will give them a chance to explain what's really going on... and other times, it will make them aware of what they are doing. Mindfulness.

This happened recently with my husband when he was being snarky out of nowhere.  I asked "Are you in a bad mood with me?", he stopped, thought for a moment and then said "No. I'm just stressed." I answered, "I know babe. It's been a really tough day." It changed the dynamic immediately and we had a peaceful evening.

Staying calm and aware of the potential for drama is vital. Being sure of yourself means you don't have to get drawn into JADE. He or she can say what they like - most of the time it's the bpd talking and you don't argue with crazy.



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