2.02 | Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)

[SaltyDawg]

How does "Do not J.A.D.E." differ from Gottman's stonewalling?

The reason why I am asking, I have been accused of 'stonewalling' when in fact I was avoiding conflict by not JADEing by a licensed therapist (LCSW).

I tried to explain, that this was only a temporary situation, usually one or two sleep cycles for my pwBPD, this is the time that is required for my pwBPD to return to baseline, at which time I asked my pwBPD to bring up the topic* again and I would try again, until pwBPD would then become dysregulated - depending on the topic, it can become a repetitive cycle of dysregulation by the pwBPD.  So, not true stonewalling of not ever talking about the issue at hand, but rather a method employed by me in order to avoid being raged at.

Reference:  https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

*  The topic was usually something insignificant that they would get wound up on, and when they returned to baseline (hours or a day) 9 out of 10 times they would not bring up the topic again, or 'forget' about it as it really wasn't important enough to be a raging 'monster' as my pwBPD has described themselves as.

[Skip]

In the simplest sense:

Her: You never respect me and open the door for me like John does for his wife!

JADE
Him: I couldn't open the door because I was carrying a box (justify), you always accuse me of things unfairly and I'm sick of it (argue), I opened your door yesterday (defend), and besides, I was raised in a feminist family where opening doors was an insult (explain).

Stonewall
Him: I'm not talking about this until you cool off. We've talked about this before and we don't get anywhere. I've got things to do today. Bring it up when you cool off (if it still matters).

Active Listening/Avoiding Invalidation/Buying Time to Return to Baseline
Him: I think it's nice that John does that and I should do it more. What's going today? You sound upset. [listen and don't JADE]
Her: Blah, blah, blah.
Him: I get where you are coming from. Let me think about this a little, I'd like to resolve this, and lets talk about it a breakfast on Friday. I have the whole morning open. [On Friday test the water to see if she wants to pick it up - read the room - if its not all that important to her on Friday - be nice, brief]

*  The topic was usually something insignificant that they would get wound up on, and when they returned to baseline (hours or a day) 9 out of 10 times they would not bring up the topic again, or 'forget' about it as it really wasn't important enough to be a raging 'monster' as my pwBPD has described themselves as.

Sure, sometimes it is dropping it could be because it wasn't valid to begin with or you seem to have gotten the massage or they are not proud of over-reacting. At times it will also be stonewalling on her part - they feeling that it is hopeless. Stonewalling begets stonewalling.

Question: Can you walk us through the specific conflict that therapist was talking about and what each of you did?

[SaltyDawg]

Question: Can you walk us through the specific conflict that therapist was talking about and what each of you did?

Sure, I will walk you through it.  It starts off in 'Active listening / avoiding invalidation...'  When she is still at baseline.  It often starts out like...

Her:  I would like you to do blah, blah, blah  [(some act of service for her - that is her 'love language', her demands used to be as a minimum of 120 hours per week, it was previously at abusive levels where every waking hour, it was demanded I would serve her needs with little or no reciprocity (>100:1 ratio), I now do this at a 1:1 to 2:1 ratio of her love languages towards her - they are now in single digits in hours for her, up from less than an hour, and mine are now down to 20 hours or less per week and is comparable to the other couple's we know, so she really cannot complain about the level I contribute - she knows she has a good thing (has said on several occasions that I do more than her friend's husbands), she just doesn't want to admit it.  Her last suicide attempt was in response to me reducing these 120 hours of unconditional service to 104 hours per week in order so that I might be able to do a few hours for my own self-care.  This is not rational, and the hours I am quoting are not an exaggeration.  Boundaries were needed, and I didn't have any at that time.]

Him: 
[Old way, prior to boundaries:]  Yes dear, how high would you like me to jump?   [I didn't want to activate her uncontrolled rage, so I would appease her whenever I could.  Appeasing does not work, as she will demand more and more on each of her subsequent demands of entitlement, without any expectation of her providing reciprocity]
[New way, with boundaries:]  I hear you that you want blah, blah, blah done in blah amount of time.  I am not able to do blah, blah, blah in blah amount of time to your satisfaction.  I am wondering, if we could do blah, blah, blah together, so we can make sure it is done in a way that you like in a more timely manner?  [My goal is to encourage 'reciprocity' in a healthy way, and not pour my unreciprocated efforts into her bottomless pit of 'feelings of emptiness' - as she expected me to do contractor quality work at contractor speeds - I can do one or the other, but not both, while constrained by her uOCPD miserly spending levels, of materials only with a preference towards the lower cost/free recycled ones - I usually could deliver, but not all the time]

Her:  [A 'mood swing' usually occurs at this point.  The old way, it was a full blown borderline rage coupled with being in a very angry mood, new way, she is still upset as I am not meeting her need of 'unconditional love toward her' and she still feels very empty inside; however, she has controlled her rage response, but not her mood swings, and starts to go around in a circle as she perceives his very reasonable response was not satisfactory to her unrealistic demands.  She repeats her demand of entitlement [request] in an elevated, more stern voice.] 

Active Listening/Avoiding Invalidation/Buying Time to Return to Baseline
Him: I think it's nice that John does that and I should do it more. What's going today? You sound upset. [listen and don't JADE]
Her: Blah, blah, blah.
Him: I get where you are coming from. Let me think about this a little, I'd like to resolve this, and lets talk about it a breakfast on Friday tomorrow morning. I have the whole morning open. [On Friday test the water to see if she wants to pick it up - read the room - if its not all that important to her on Friday - be nice, brief

I cannot validate doing more than the theoretical maximum of every waking hour being in unconditional service to my wife, nor will I validate doing more than +/-100 hours more than the recommended maximum.  My goal is a healthy 50:50 level of reciprocity, not an unhealthy >100:1 level of unconditionally serving an emotionally unavailable person with little (bread crumbs) to no reciprocity - this is unacceptable.  I will not validate the invalid.  Currently, I am still serving her at a 2:1 ratio or a 67:33 ratio, otherwise, she will complain I am not doing enough through my boundaries.

Some variation on this is usually how it starts.  If she states a twisted/false narrative that she perceives I have done to her and demands an explanation - I will only validate her feelings on the matter, but not validate the false narrative - I will not attempt to Justify her narrative, nor will I try to Explain her narrative, I will not attempt to Argue with how correct her narrative is, nor will I Defend myself on her false narrative.  I will validate the portion that is valid, more often than not, it is only her feeling that is valid, and that is the only thing I can validate for her.  As I do not want her to continue to spiral and get angrier, I must do something to interrupt this destructive cycle, as any form of communication, including the most validating one of all is insufficient for her, so the only logical course of action is to press the 'pause' button on the communication until she can return to baseline.  In order to interrupt her spiraling out of control, the only method that I have found is to indicate to resume the conversation 'tomorrow morning' as I know 98% of the time she will emotionally reset after a sleep cycle and return to baseline.  I also indicate that she should bring up the topic when she is ready to talk about it - if it is important enough she will bring it up.  I don't bring it up the topic again; because if I do, it will re-trigger her as she will more often than not re-dysregulate on it especially if it is not rational in nature, and the cycle will then continue - the idea is to interrupt the cycle or irrational behavior, not encourage it.  On the rare occasion it is important enough to discuss more in depth, either she or I will bring up the topic again.


Her: BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!  [She would say the same thing over again, in a much louder tone of voice]
Him: I feel like we are getting too wound up by this (or going around in circles). [I say 'we' or 'both' so I do not assign blame] and this is becoming very upsetting for both of us.  I do not like yelling, perhaps we can take a break and resume this conversation tomorrow morning when we both have cooled down?

OLD VERSION - prior to therapy for him & her

Her: BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!  [floods and goes around in circles, yelling at the top of her lungs only a few inches/cm away from his face]
Him:  Stonewalls, and does not respond other than closing his eyes, and try to tune it out, and remain motionless for the duration of the uncontrolled and very irrational screaming that typically lasted 2-4 hours, and occasionally as as little as one hour or as long as over 7 hours - and then she would return to baseline without a sleep cycle


INTERMEDIATE VERSION - where I started to implement a boundaries, but she was still unregulated

Her: BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!  [floods and goes around in circles, yelling at the top of her lungs only a few inches/cm away from his face]
Him: [in a calm, cool voice]  I do not like yelling.  I will leave if yelling continues.
Her: BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! 
Him: I am leaving to do blah.  I will be back no later than blah.  [quietly leaves with no further interaction, I indicate a time of return, and return prior to that, as I don't want to further activate her fear of abandonment - repeat as necessary]


NEW VERSION - after both he and her have had therapy
Her: [Recognizes the cue of 'talking tomorrow' from him as that he perceives her to be dysregulated, and knows to stop in order to prevent it from spiraling / escalating to the point where her feelings and/or his feelings do further damage to the relationship.  When I [he] signals to take it up 'tomorrow' - I think she realizes that she has overstepped rational conversation, and will stop, and she will usually leave as she knows I will not budge from my boundary until she returns to being regulated again.]

Sure, sometimes it is dropping it could be because it wasn't valid to begin with or you seem to have gotten the massage or they are not proud of over-reacting. At times it will also be stonewalling on her part - they feeling that it is hopeless. Stonewalling begets stonewalling.

For my pwBPD it is almost always one of the following:

• [She realizes that her argument is ]not valid to begin with
• [She ] seems to have gotten the message
• [She is ] not proud of over-reacting

I have also observed:

• She disassociates and cannot remember the conversation after she returns to baseline after she was triggered from the prior day - this is her biggest issue when she 'loses it'

She readily admits to not 'remembering'; however, she cannot connect the dots to this symptom.

She almost never does stonewalling (except with sex/affection/touch, another topic) - the only time she goes quiet is when I enforce my boundary on this kind of behavior, I will no longer tolerate being yelled at - as that is verbal abuse at a very minimum, and depending on the content can can also be emotional and/or psychological  abuse as well.  Nor will I accept her unreasonable / irrational demands and/or twisted/false statements as legitimate - I will not validate the invalid.  She knows how to do this at her work (volunteer and paid), and even there she gets dysregulated where she has shouting matches and is reprimanded for her behaviors (I know it is not me, as she does this with others too).

Just recently, I have noticed my wife using a variation of the DBT 'fact checking tool' on her false/twisted narrative that she perceives as her 'truth'.  This is progress.

Now, that I have set firm boundaries, her dysregulation is no longer directed towards me, but others she cares about, like our daughter, who also has age appropriate boundaries.

When I validate her feelings only (as that is the only thing I can validate at the moment) - I am accused of talking like a politician - where I would apologize for her feelings, or feeling that I made her upset, but not the false/twisted narrative that she is upset about.  If I were to apologize for her false narrative, then I would admit to a false statement, and she will hold this as a grudge as she is demanding that I explain and defend my actions - it is like she wants me to argue with her.  I know this is not rational, but this is what I have to deal with.  By setting a firm boundary on not tolerating this kind of behavior, she is getting better.

In summary:  When she is irrational (dysregulated), there is no reasoning with her, even with active listening she still becomes so triggered by her emotions.  The best course of action is to use active listening with support and empathy and to 'pause' the conversation to let things cool down until she is re-regulated (mood swing ends) in one, occasionally two sleep cycles.

I will circle back to you that both you and our couple therapist do recommend to continue to engage in active listening; however, I will pushback, if active listening only triggers the situation even more, then I feel, and my individual therapist feels the same way, we need to 'pause' the conversation, and when presented to the couple's therapist, the couple's therapist agreed if the conversation continues to spiral out of control in a bad direction, a 'pause' is acceptable.

A normal person would be responsive to the active listening with communication with support and empathy; however, a dysregulated person may not be as responsive, or the response would be an escalation rather than a de-escalation of angry outbursts since they are demanding an explanation from me [him] for their twisted/false narrative as their truth.

Comments, questions, observations?

[Skip]

Indeed, none of us should be servitude to our partners. If you initially went down that path to show your love, it was a task to get the balance back.

Service is my partner's love language, and she loves to give me a to-do list before I get out of bed or when she goes on a trip. I've gone through a similar process of learning to say no.

I also commend you on recognizing the importance of waiting until your wife returns to baseline to deal with matters rather than getting in a lather while she is highly emotional.  

In summary:  When she is irrational (dysregulated), there is no reasoning with her, even with active listening she still becomes so triggered by her emotions.  The best course of action is to use active listening with support and empathy and to 'pause' the conversation to let things cool down until she is re-regulated (mood swing ends) in one, occasionally two sleep cycles.

I will circle back to you that both you and our couple therapist do recommend to continue to engage in active listening; however, I will pushback, if active listening only triggers the situation even more, then I feel, and my individual therapist feels the same way, we need to 'pause' the conversation, and when presented to the couple's therapist, the couple's therapist agreed if the conversation continues to spiral out of control in a bad direction, a 'pause' is acceptable.

A normal person would be responsive to the active listening with communication with support and empathy; however, a dysregulated person may not be as responsive, or the response would be an escalation rather than a de-escalation of angry outbursts since they are demanding an explanation from me [him] for their twisted/false narrative as their truth.

Comments, questions, observations?

There is a lot to unpack in the 2,100 words above, and I don't think I can do it all here, so I'll be selective and stay to the main theme of the thread.

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I think of Don't JADE as a more universal tool and a tool to manage ourselves. It's helpful for us to recognize that when we feel doubted or criticized our insecurities or inability to read the room can make us feel that we need to "set the record straight".  JADE happens in all relationships, but more so when communications are broken down. We can trigger on keywords (or expressions) and jump back into prior disagreements. When we JADE, at best, people stop listening to us. Often people feel unheard and shut down or they amp up (because, in truth, we are not listening). JADE happens more and more as relationship communications break down and people find themselves just talking at each other.

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ACTIVE LISTENING is another universal tool and alternative to JADE. It's when we let the other person know we are hearing and understanding what they are trying to tell us. People love it when we listen, absorb, and validate (show where we agree). I believe people are more inclined to listen to you when you are listening to them.   These are two complementary tools we can use to improve our communications in a relationship. The tools are not about changing or controlling our partners side of the street - they are about improving our side of the street.

I believe I hear you using "Don't JADE" in a context that means "don't engage because another person is being unreasonable and it will make matters worse". That is different than how we use the term at BPDFamily. Don't JADE is different than "don't engage".  

Gottman termed not engaging "because we feel another person is being unreasonable and it will make matters worse" as "stonewalling". He has studied this at length.

I know that you take great exception when the therapist says you are stonewalling, but I think you might be better served to accept this characterization and to look into it a little deeper. Stonewalling is not isolated to one person's actions. It is a natural protective reaction to a difficult situation of which there are multiple participants. While stonewalling is both a natural and common response, it is also a non-constructive response in a relationship. Resolving it is not an easy fix. There are multiple moving parts.

That said, I would not consider giving your wife space to self-soothe and get back to baseline as "stonewalling," per se. You most certainly want to be able to support her getting back to baseline, but there is nuance in how you give your wife space and I suspect that is what he is talking about.

Getting back to baseline When someone in our life is highly reactive, I think it's best to do what we can to calm the situation as we ease our way out and wait until they (and we) return to baseline.

Highly reactive is on a spectrum, and in some situations, we can listen and say just a little and that alone can make the person feel they are getting through, start diffusing the situation and buy time to get to baseline. In some situations, we can say that we want to help but we are overwhelmed and we need space (to buy time to get to baseline). In the worst of times, we may just have to excuse ourselves.  Learning how to calm a domestic conflict is situation specific and is trial and error. Over time we learn how to do it better (if we try). We also learn when to get out and stay out.

I think we need to be careful not to dismiss all reactive situations as meaningless. This is also on a spectrum. There may be something behind the reaction. There is may be something, but not be related directly to us. Sometimes its just pure emotion that goes away on its own.  

I think of it less as a unilateral "pause" and more as helping our partner have a "controlled release." You said your wife is starting follow your lead and that is good. We want to help and be responsible for our stuff - we do not want to cross the line and take responsibility for our partners self-soothing.

You made the step up from "Yes dear" to "I am leaving" to "talk tomorrow". This is huge. .

Do you think there is a next rung on that ladder? Ways to turn "unilateral pause" into "controlled release?"

This would be a good workshop topic "Extinction Bursts and Diffusing Emotional Outbursts"

[PathFinder1]

This is really useful for me to read. I hadn’t thought of the return to baseline and should remind myself about JADE. Thanks.