2.02 | Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)

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When faced with accusations, untrue accusations, exaggerated accusations, it's natural to react and push back. It's logical to want to correct statements that you think are not valid. You feel violated and invalidated.

Surely there are time when we should explain, or defend, or justify!

Justify ------------------------

Have you ever been able to get your partner to agree with you when you justify yourself in response to her concerns?

Attacking ------------------------

Does attacking your partner ever win an argument?

Defend ------------------------

When you defend yourself, does your partner ever accept what you say as the truth?

Explain ------------------------

How about when you explain yourself? Does your partner ever calm her down?

The problem is two-fold.  J.A.D.E. rarely works. We often use it (see graph).  Justifying, counter-attacking, defending, or explaining yourself often makes things worse. Why? Because when you invalidate someones perceptions, they often feel that you are invalidating them, personally. This can trigger conflict as they feel unheard and uncared for.



         Click to enlarge

Remember, your partner's version of what happened is their truth. Their perceptions are their facts. We can have different perceptions or interpretations. These are our facts. Often both sets are biased.

The problem is that when you choose to JADE or Dexify, it almost always makes matters worse. It is better to listen to the other person's concerns first - try to understand what is bothering them. In time, you can resolve or harmonize your different perceptions.

There are more effective ways to communicate "your truth", such as SET, GIVE, and DEARMAN. These methods can get past another person's defense mechanisms.  Timing is critical, so choose a time when your partner isn't in an argumentative mood already. A spoonful of empathy and validation and also help set the stage so that she is more open and receptive to hearing what you have to say.

JADE means to justify, argue, defend, and/or explain. Dexify is a similar term meaning defend, explain, and/or justify.

[united for now]

_____

One of the easiest ways to catch a monkey is to place a banana in a glass jar. The monkey's desire for the banana will lead his hand to get stuck when he tries to pull the banana out. Being of simple mind, he won't realize he has to let go. Even in the face of danger he will hang on to the banana, thus making him easy to catch.

When faced with an inaccurate accusation or criticism, we nons also get caught in the trap. Our desire to prove our innocence leads us to hang on and defend ourselves way past the danger point.

Like the monkey, we don't know when to let go.

Avoid the Monkey Trap Story... .don't JADE... .let it go!

[egwene]

Great thread - can you guys give some examples of what you say (or don't say or do) when responding to your BPDbf?  I feel like I get caught a lot because mine asks questions that "require" an explanation or makes mean or judgmental statements that "require" calling out, but maybe I am wrong... .

[Mara2]

Yes, I get caught in this trap.  Why? If I walk away he follows yelling that I think I am perfect or that I don't have the guts to face up to my own problems.  If I say nothing he takes it as agreement and it comes back over and over to haunt me.  If I fight back I am once again in the trap.  I hav yet to figure out how to relate well when he is wanting to argue. Nothing seems to work.

[isilme]

I've just gotta hold on to that banana!

I've gotten better about a few things, like when I know he is talking about his feelings about work, or his feelings about his family, but I still attempt to defend when it's me.  I still get that deer in the headlights moment of, ":)o you REALLY think that about me?  WTH?  How could you be with me for so long and actually think that?"  I can listen to the anger and crankiness, even if I get the side of it, and I can usually put a bit of a barrier up and try to validate his feelings about his boss, about his mom, etc, because I am no longer feeling it's my place/job/duty to 'fix' those feelings.  But when the laser sight is on ME, it's a lot harder to let it slide down my back. 

I'm trying to find ways to validate his feelings about what is going on when it applies to me, because to me it feels like an admission of guilt, or an invitation for more verbal abuse.  Last time I had a good excuse to leave, we were arguing about being late for work, so my walking off was a lot easier than a few other times when it's been hard to break away.  Working on it. 

Do you find yourself doing this? - Definitely.

Why do you think you continue with the fight? Because I am still not sure what to do - and because more than anything else accusations against ME hurt, and the thought he can feel that way about me hurts, and my own emotions kick in and I forget I am using logic with an irrational person.

Why do you think it is so hard for you to let it go?  Part of my brain still thinks it can 'prove' he is seeing things in a disordered way, and his anger can be defused with logic.  By the time I can admit it won't work, things are in a bad place.

[Surnia]

My banana is: Do do what others expect from me. Or even more complicated: Do what I think they would expect from me.   

Why I continue the fight: To do what others expect ----> "love". "Love is never cost-free" is written somewhere in my inner script. I have to be without big emotions. I have to be perfect, I have to be bla bla bla  . I can never have enough from banana-love.

Why it is hard for me to let go: I do not trust enough myself. I am loosing the contact to my inner being, and immediately I feel like remote-controlled, but in fact its in my mind. My mind is constantly looking for someone to please.

In short words: I feel sometimes like a banana junkie in my life.


I like these storys, these pictures, thx UFN!

[twistedmarriage]

Well, this is timely! Last night I blew my top... why? My banana is MONEY!

The main trigger/issue in life that will provoke me into a defensive trap is:

Money, money, money!

Being accused of spending too much, being told I only spend on me, not having enough money, having too much money... .

its all about the money!  Really not too surprising except that apparently it really hits me hard to feel criticized and even though I may not have actually recieved a criticism I feel it. 

Where does this come from?   Well,  my NPD Dad was all about money too.  I'm not sure if it was a means of control for him but in the end I was left knowing, not only feeling, that what was being lived was not the truth.  My Dad was extremely stingy at times and extremely generous at other times.  This inconsisitency and imbalance left me identifiying with all social stratopheres but feeling, and being accused by others, that I was "moonlighting". 

It served me well in that I don't attribute money as a definition of a person's achievement or personality.  BUT on the other hand if I don't feel confident of what my money situation is I blow a gasket and become the ultimate alter-NPD bhit that helped me survive my parents. Unfortunately my family gets to witness it and my kids end up bearing the brunt of it. It's like I have to outdo the BPD in my life in terms of drama.

Thankfully my uBPD spouse has accomplished enough in his therapy that he was able to step back and say, "Please lets move forward with love."  At those words I was just so shocked and pleased that I immediately dropped my alter-NPD ego and apologized.  We then explained to the kids using the story of Jonah and the Whale how sometimes we fight ourselves & God in the process and end up getting swallowed by whales but since God is always calling us like he did Jonah if we choose to we will make it back to shore. 

[needbpdhelp]

I think the term 'so near, yet so far' is what is happening here, and it happens to humans all the time. The closer we feel we are to attaining something of great value to us, the more tenacious we are about persuing it, especially if the persuit has consumed an enormous amount of time, emotion, and/or other resources.

For most of us that post here ON L4, I believe we feel that both ouselves and our SOs are intelligent, and love each other - I know for sure we all want a healthy r/s - WE JUST CAN'T SEEM TO GET THE DAMN THING OUT OF THE BOTTLE.

Why do you think you continue with the fight?  
Frustration mostly, knowing that as the unresolved issues and resentments pile up, the r/s gets more and more unhealthy, and trust and true intimacy tend to go away.

What I like about DBT, is that practicing it's principles leads to a deeper understanding of each other's feelings and needs, and can significantly reduce conflict, blame, and inaccurate perceptions and communications.

Why do you think it is so hard for you to let it go?
Because intuitively a logical review of the facts should make an inaccurate accusation go away, and with most people it usually does - however this doesn't work with anyone who's emotions are dysregulated, and unfortunately this happens way more often for a pwBPD.

Enter DBT - a mixture of logic, meditation, radical acceptance, and lessons to put it all together for a better understanding of the workings of the human mind.

My wife and I have come a long way these past months studying the concepts of DBT, however I struggle daily with the idea that it is logical that my wonderful intelligent BPDw can be so illogical.

Mindsight: The New Science of Personal Transformation Author: Daniel J. Siegel MD Publisher: Bantam; 1St Edition edition (January 12, 2010) Paperback: 336 pages ISBN-10: 0553804707 ISBN-13: 978-0553804706

A great new book I am reading now - 'mindsite' - is helping me understand why and how the brain causes  dysfunctional thinking and inaccurate realities, and how to reprogram it ourselves using a technique called 'mindsite' - a blend of recent brain function studies and mindfulness. It turns out that we can learn to consciously rewire our brain to give us healthier states of mind. Go on Amazon to check out this book, and the author's credentials.

needBPDhelp

[united for now]

"Monkey mind" is the opposite of rational and logical.  It is one of the ways Mindfulness training describes a persons thoughts when they are overly emotional and dysregulated.

I guess when we become fixated on holding onto a concept (the banana) we lose executive functions (ability to remember long term goals or consider possible consequences) and global perspective. Our own needs (to be right, to not be falsely accused, to prove a point) consume our ability to be empathetic or reasonable... though of course "we" don't recognize our own unreasonableness. Sounds familiar, huh ?

So, any ideas on how to learn to drop that banana?

[Fish]

So, any ideas on how to learn to drop that banana?

One of the great mistakes I have made during my 20 years with uBPDw has been participating in the verbal arms race and its inevitable escalation. I had a whole bunch of bananas I used to cling to during those episodes, but perhaps the prize one was defending against character assasinations.

I am out of that now. The way I learned to let go was to realize that none of it mattered. She was simply hell-bent on having a core meltdown, for whatever reason. She was provoking and I was the agent being used to "cause" her emotional apocalypse and therefore justify it.

Forward thinking made me realize how ridiculous and futile my role in that was. I removed my ego from it, shut up, and now leave her to deal with the electrical superstorms in head on her own. I tell myself now, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. " And that works because... .I really don't.  

[healinghome]

monkey mind!  ha!  i love that!  i'm going to repeat that phrase in my mind when i find myself caught in that trap.

simple answer?  fear.  its fear that keeps me hanging on to the banana.  fear that what starts as a dig or two towards me from one of my parents, ends with the whole family (included extended) poking fun at me or alienating/excluding me.  so i try to defend myself to put their view right on it, only to find that this gives them power and makes them do it all the more. 

i can't change their minds, i never could and now i'm learning to let go i'm seeing how futile it is to 'hang on'.  BPD's that are set in their ways aren't interested in learning the truth, they are only interested in blaming and shaming others, its the only sense of power they know of.  so attempting to defend myself to their accusations i guess is missing the point.  the point is that they want to feel a sense of power over others by getting us nons hooked on the banana ie; defending wrongful accusations against us.

the more i get to know myself, the more the accusations are met with the reolization that... .they truly don't know me.

[Chosen]

I personally avoid JADEing when I feel that my H is in one of his moods, meaning he's already a bit annoyed, or going down some spiral.  Also when I sense that he's trying to pick a fight (it's becoming easier and easier to tell so most of the times I don't respond to those!).

I think what you need to understand is that their minds just don't work in the "normal" way.  When we JADE we're somehow thinking that "if only he/ she knew what I was thinking/ do, saying, then he/ she will agree with me".  We usually JADE to try to get others to understand and accept our position.  And that's impossible because they don't think the way we do, and pwBPDs are not acceptant of other people's truths (if they are not their own).  So I think the hard part is knowing whether it is an issue they will "come to terms" with, or not.  Or when they're not dysregulated and you just want to present your point (without expectation they will accept it), then it's ok in small amouts I think.

[daylily]

I agree with Chosen that you don't have to avoid JADEing all the time, just when they're on edge. Because they are so focused on their feelings, if you defend or explain yourself, even if it makes logical sense, it is seen by them as invalidating and insensitive.  The key is to find the emotion that is behind the incorrect statement (for them, feelings create facts) and validate that feeling rather than correct the facts.

Example from my experience just today:

H:  My life didn't turn out the way I envisioned.  I have gotten nothing I want out of my life and I would divorce you in a heartbeat if we didn't have children.  If you didn't have such a good paying job, I would have pursued my own career and then I would have gotten what I always wanted.

Me: (whoops, JADEing)  I haven't prevented you from doing anything.  Are you really blaming me for being TOO successful?  That's ridiculous.

(Argument escalating)

Me: (finally coming to my senses)  I can really understand how you would be frustrated that your career hasn't worked out the way you wanted.  I'd feel the same way if I were in your shoes.  What can we do to fix that?  How about if we (plan)?

H:  That's all I've wanted from you is an acknowledgement that it's frustrating, but you've never done that before.

After this, I'm feeling tempted to JADE again because I've often told him this, but I let it go and proceed with the discussion of how we're going to try to fix the problem.

. Daylily

[coasterhusband]

Thanks everyone for helping me out. JADE seems less like a proactive communication tool (like SET) and more like a mentality.

[waverider]

If she moves off topic then that is the previous topic closed. Dont try to drag it back to original topic.

If she is angry and moving into the point scoring/winning type of discussion rather than resolving issues then it is time to disengage.

If the whole thing was in response to you asserting a boundary, then once you taken the appropriate action then nothing more need be said. If disengaging doesn't work then leave, go find something else to do. You are in the area of extinction bursts. At which point the topic is dropped from your point of view, as nothing positive can come from pursuing it.

You dont have "win" an argument or convince anybody of anything.

You cant stop her from continuing but you dont have to join in.

[daylily]

I agree that it's never a good thing to JADE.  For me (and my partner is high-functioning and prone to periods of "logic", I can't really ever J, A or D without a bad reaction, but E doesn't cause an issue sometimes when he's not dysregulated.  And I'm acknowledging his emotions at the same time, so it's really not JADEing at all, but more like SET.

It's interesting that Wave linked JADEing with self confidence.  I never thought about it that way before, but if you feel like you need to JADE, you must not be confident in your actions, opinion or position.  I think a lot of us here have been questioned for so long that we've lost our ability to feel confident in ourselves.  If there wasn't any doubt there, we wouldn't bother JADEing.  Plus, what makes it hard is that there's almost always a nugget of "truth" in their position.  I find it hard not to focus on that and take it personally or doubt myself.

I agree that the tangents are really frustrating, and as Wave says, many times you end up somewhere else and wondering how you got there.  Trying to steer the discussion back doesn't work.  I just let it go for now and come back to it later when he's not dysregulated.  Many times he's thought about it by then and we can engage in a rational discussion.  Where it gets frustrating is when a decision needs to be made right away.  Then you make the decision and are blamed later for not discussing it first.  That's why I try to bring things up far in advance, so there's time to address them again later if H is not receptive at first.

YOU know you didn't block the discussion, and that's your truth, so you don't need to JADE if she accuses you of that, just feel confident that you did the best you could under the circumstances.

  Daylily

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... . JADEing when we lack self confidence. That rings a bell with me.

One ongoing issue I have is that I'm a reasonable and safe driver, but not as good as my wife is. She is better at driving defensively, better at being aware of the cars around her, and better at navigating/remembering where she is or has been and is going.

I often do things that aren't the way she would do it, usually because I haven't thought things out as far ahead as she has, sometimes miss a turn especially when we're in a new place I've not driven very much, and she will often make critical comments about what I did.

Just today I missed a turn, and took a different route which ultimately made no difference in when or where we arrived, and was in no way unsafe. She said something invalidating about it, and my first response was a complete JADE.

Neither of us escalated it from that point; we had a great lunch with a friend.

Still I notice that it is an area where I lack some confidence, and I see my own defensiveness.

I know my driving will never be quite to the level of my wife's no matter what, especially in a new place, and doubly so when she knows the place better than I do.

So I need to find another source of something to keep myself from instantly JADEing in these times.

[Cloudy Days]

I actually had a conversation with my husband about how I react when he accuses me of something. It was informative for me, he said when I get upset about it, to him that means I am guilty. He actually told me to roll it off my shoulders and ignore it. If I act like it's not a big deal and don't try to explain myself or counteract it then it makes me less guilty in his eyes. It's difficult to do because it goes against my nature. I need to try harder not to JADE I suppose. In the moment I literally can't think of anything to say other than, "But I'm not doing that". Or something similar that would be a JADE statement.

I realized after that conversation that he basically told me don't JADE when he accuses me of something. If I'm not guilty then it shouldn't bother me. My weakness is being blamed for something I didn't do, it hits me at the core of my issues I guess. I have to stop taking what he says personally.

[MaybeSo]

Most blaming statements are an announcement about a persons unowned fear.

To personalize it, we cooperate in a distorted thought process. The instinct for them is to externalize their pain, to JADE is to buy into the externalization... . the more you protest the more you are giving weight to the externalization... . that this really is about you so you must defend yourself and argue with them.

It is nearly impossible to become involved in circular arguments unless you are JADEing. The JADEing fuels the argument, and any fight requires two.

If you stop JADEing... . the fuel source is gone.

Emotional validation can get to what the fear is... . instead of arguing about the validity of externalization ... . which is just a symptom.

Also... . when I stop JADEing... . sometimes I can see some areas where there is some validity to the story (the externalization)... . but my partner was usually not skilled in his communication and I'd let his sloppy or exaggerated delivery push my buttons. We'd then argue about it bitterly. Two days later when we were calmer and I could ask clarifying questions... . we would get to a place where he actually made sense... . and I'd think to myself... . why didn't he express himself better in the first place?

Because he wasn't skilled that way... . only if we stayed calm and didn't start JADEing about the initial external story... . were we able to break it down.

You will never find a communications skill class encouraging JADE as a useful tool. It is most often applied in an adversarial relationship like  in a court of law where there's a clear winner and a clear loser.

That style of interacting is almost never helpful in relationships where you are actually trying to maintain connection.

[daylily]

This is such a great thread!  Thanks everyone! 

[hanginon]

This thread has a lot of good information in it and I can say I have learned a few things just from following along.  I however have a few questions as to how this would apply to my own situation.  To my BPDw my silence is automatic guilt. I think she has an internal measure as to how much of a reaction she gets out of me to determine if I am being truthful or not. My situation sounds almost exactly opposite of how it should work.  I am aware that I am guilty until proven innocent because silence to her = guilt.  

[emotionaholic]

This is a great tread, great questions and great responses.  Thank you.

This is all starting to sink in.  So when being accused of something that is simply not true ie cheating, hiding things, lying, My normal reaction is to deny the accusations.  Which always turns into a raging fight that never gets settled.

Instead I validate her feelings ie you sound hurt, not trusting, feeling abandoned.  Hard to do while being falsely accused but ok Im listening to you guys and trying to learn.  I then or in conjunction with validating use SET or DEARMAN.  And am I correct that validation can come out in the E part of SET or are they separate responses?  So I say You sound hurt (validation.)  I love you and am here for you (Support.)  I understand how that ie cheating lying, hiding things must make you feel ie abandoned, untrusting, hurt (Empathy.)  I am not cheating on you, lying to you, or hiding things from you (truth.) or is that defending?

If I'm lucky to get any of that out without being interrupted or insulted then I listen to her and try validation a bit more but since I have spoken the truth there is no need to go back there.  If the argument continues to escalate which it shouldn't because I am detaching and just listening and validating maybe using SET again then I set a boundary.  I will not continue this conversation if you are going to insult and abuse me.  I am going to take a walk and will be back in an hour If you wish to continue this in a calmer fashion then we can.  By avoiding JADEing and speaking the truth during SET not repeating it over and over while trying to get it through to her which in the end makes me look like a fool beating its head against the wall.  In the end what I end up showing is confidence and strength.  The problem and pain are now hers to sort out.

This is great people thank you for being here.

[waverider]

Just to throw another angle on this that we dont talk about much. Not only should we not JADE, but we have to resisted throwing an inquisition at them so that they also go into JADE, you are just inviting a whole lot of nonsense excuses, which you have no intention of believing either.

JADE is a two way street.

Same with ACCEPTANCE, its not just accepting them and their flaws, it is also accepting ourselves and our flaws.

Life is so much easier when this becomes part of your personality, it also takes a while to truly develop it.

[InSearchofMe]

I realized that just about everything that came out of my mouth was JADE when talking with my pwBPD! So while sitting quietly trying to figure out what to say that wasn't JADE, he would just keep talking.  This made me realize that a lot of the time, we really aren't having a conversation.  He's just talking.  Just because he says something does not mean I have to say something back.

[Wanda]

 many years ago before BPD and finding out i did exactly this i justify argues and defended or explained, it was horrible….

now i don't do this i stopped many years ago and things did get better. now i just don't say anything. because i know my husband sometimes wan't me to justify argue defend or explain .   he wants to fight, and i won't... hey just so you know he hates this .

[yeeter]

The confidence allows you to own your own thoughts/feelings/positions.  Part of my problem was, that sometimes I DID want my wife to see things my way. After all, we validate ourselves by third party confirmation, and a part of that would normally come from a spouse (called being supportive).

Once I let go of that expectation and faced the reality that we are very different people with very different thought processes, it was easier not to jade.  I look for my own validation from other places (friends, family, self).  Then when is a 'dialog' (which usd to feel like 'debate', I don't feel compelled to be sure she understands my point of view.  I can communicate it.  But she may not listen and likely wont at all agree.  So I simply state it, while listening to her side, and we go from there.  Often this comes o the conclusion that 'we just disagree' or see it differently.  Which transitions the discussion to how to act accepting this fact.  Not ideal, since she has a high emotional need to act based on her own reality (especially when kids are involved).

But reducing the jade has helped my own sense of self confidence.  A healthy thing.

[sweetheart]

For many years before I came to this sight I JADEed  over and over again. It made everything worse. Now I try not to JADE, but I still get drawn in to things sometimes, especially the need to 'explain', I have a need in me to put things right by explaining because I still believe that it might make the situation better. Like Wanda, my husband sometimes just wants a fight because he feels bad and wants to put it my way, I am better equipped now to recognise this and quietly close the door behind me and walk away.

[lbjnltx]

When I react to the words rather than respond to the emotions behind them is when I am most likely engaging in JADEing. At that point in the interaction the focus shifts from me listening to understand to defending myself.

It doesn't go well!

[Rapt Reader]

I find that I JADE when I am caught off-guard by a dysregulation that seems to come out of left field, when I have NO idea of what I even said or did that precipitated it.

Instead of immediately detaching from the anger or pain I hear in my loved one's voice and words, I take it gigantically personally, get my dander up and want to figure it out... .Always erroneously thinking that if I could just say my piece, explain what I'd really meant by what I supposedly said or did, things would calm down.

Of course, doing all of that just fuels the fire and keeps the hamster wheel of dysfunction spinning around, generally for a much longer duration than if I can immediately step back, detach from taking it personally, and listen carefully to the emotions behind the dysregulation so I can eventually use Validation and S.E.T. to diffuse the situation.

Or even just have a sympathetic demeanor and not say anything at all... .In fact, doing that is pretty much always more beneficial to the situation than JADEING.

I think my impetus to JADE comes from my feeling misunderstood by my loved one, and my desire to "fix" things, and show him that I'm still the wonderful person he always thinks I am when he's not dysregulated  

[Kwamina]

Here is the link to a workshop about avoiding circular arguments in which J.A.D.E. is mentioned:

COMMUNICATION: How to stop circular arguments