seeking advice

[once removed]

im in what sounds like a simple situation but feels like a delicate one and im genuinely unsure what to do about it.

ex is repeatedly getting into the email account attached to my facebook to read my incoming messages and notifications. not a big worry in itself, i don't have anything in there im worried about her seeing. sounds simple right? "so change the password."

i haven't so far. it has been going on since atleast march 7th, or atleast that is when i became aware of it. we had an ambiguous breakup february 18th, i signaled it was final, she painted me black, dove into a new relationship. since i didn't know about BPD yet, i had no idea what to make of this. i left it open to monitor her behavior. she did it every day for a week. i planted a one line email (designed, basically, to put a very friendly face on the word "BUSTED". she read it, and attempted to steal 140 dollars from me the next day. i then contacted her by text to suggest that we exchange things. she returned to my email. she has delayed for about 24, the process of exchanging our things, and after every contact, leaves a trace (unopened messages) in my email. has done so again.

why i haven't changed the password.

i admit right off the bat, partly out of attachment. i get a little bit of a kick each time she checks it, i wonder when/if she'll check it, i'm remotely disappointed when i don't see a sign that she has. i understand this is the wrong reason. it's worth noting though, that this dynamic has lessened. it now mostly creeps me out.

however, my main reasoning has been in the interest of getting my things back, the theory being that if i change it NOW, it will make it harder to do so. i've never been sure whether or not that's actually the case. it's not as if she hasn't drug it out anyway. however, progress has been made, and i believe it's going to happen, and i don't want to shake that up.

and now, at this point, im fearing the repercussions after letting her check it for so long, and suddenly changing it, especially when i'm already triggering her sense of abandonment in pursuing my things.

i have this picture of a child, and the idea that i've been teaching her the wrong behavior, and essentially enabling her. and now im really not sure what to do about it. i wonder if perhaps, i URGENTLY need to change it NOW, and it's making me anxious. or if, rather, it's not that big a deal. does it sound reasonable that i would leave it open to her until i achieve getting my things as has been the plan? are the potential repercussions (whenever i change the password) now significantly heightened? is that worth considering? it seems simple but it really isn't. i just really don't want to make the wrong move here. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.

[seeking balance]

luckystrikes,

with 324 posts, you have read enough to know what you need to do and my guess is you already know the advice you are going to get here.

When I was still engaging with my ex, I used every rationalization in the book - in the end, I had to accept that ex is mentally ill, that my behaviour of not setting clear boundaries that was enabling and I had to stop contact and in my case, let it play out legally.

Are you sure you really want to let go?  If you are ready - then block her email, change the password, let her know the time you plan to drop her things off, make your list of items you want from her and tell her to have them ready or you will file legal action.  Or you could just let your things go and be free.

If I recall, you have been doing the "getting stuff back" dance for about a month now - do you see your part in this dance yet?

You cannot fix her, stop walking on the eggshells and worrying about her reaction - take care of yourself.  If you don't take care of you, who else is going to do it?

it is going to hurt, but you gotta rip off the bandaid eventually - let her go, it is the only way to begin to heal.

peace, sb

[once removed]

sb,

i do know what i need to do, but the consequences are worth considering. im not simply trying to rationalize it here.

i've made progress in getting my things back (we've exchanged a list). changing my password now could upset that. i do want to do change my password. i also want to get my things. im really not dancing. i've done nothing but engage her very formally, and specifically, and gently forced the issue. she's (i suspect) giving me some BS about what's keeping her, but she's seeing the inevitability, and we're getting closer each time. i can deal with that, if thats what it takes, so long as it happens.

my questions mostly center around the urgency of the matter. it's not this inability to change my password because im afraid of detaching. im beginning to worry now that it is URGENT that i change my password IMMEDIATELY. if it isn't, and it's basically no big deal, and mostly up to me, then i feel most comfortable doing it after i obtain my things.

it isn't that im walking on eggshells and worrying about her reaction. im wondering more specifically, if by not changing my password IMMEDIATELY, i'm actually making the potential repercussions worse. i do have reason to fear repercussions. that's what it boils down to. could it shake the progress made in getting my things, and is this an URGENT matter, or "no big deal, change it when you're ready".

[Survival]

Okay, here is my advice... .

I think you should change your password immediately.  I also think your stuff is long gone, probably destroyed in some fantastic manner.  Burned, crushed, shredded, thrown out the car window at speed - take your pick.

If not, taking away her access to your email will likely compel her to contact you since she can no longer satisfy her curiosity and get her "fix".  This could be a way to arrange the exchange of "stuff".

Personally, if I were you, I would walk away and not look back.  Consider anything she had of yours a total loss.  Just get new stuff.  In the end, you will come out ahead.

In reading this and other posts of yours about this, I'm getting the impression you might not be ready to do this yet.  Only you can sort that out.  God knows it took me long enough to figure it out for myself.

Good luck.

Survival

[once removed]

im afraid im misspeaking or being misread here.

i am detaching. the exchange of things is a step i am trying to force as part of that process. it's not about the things themselves. i see her having made no effort to exchange things, and dragging it out once *I* made the effort to exchange things, as a door she is trying to keep open. i am trying to shut it. the exchange of things, though it has been slow, has made significant and clear progress. it's happening. it's inevitable. she's just dragging it out. but we're getting closer every time.

i do suspect she will respond in some manner once i change the password to get her fix, but we're already in some contact as to arranging our stuff. she asked me to email her a specific list. i did so tonight. she reminded me (BEFORE i sent the email tonight) the reason it's been slow is that she's been taking care of her mom, that she's been very busy, and that she's not trying to keep me from my things. which, while probably entirely a lie, was a new tone, and its becoming clearer to her that its GOING to happen whether she likes it or not. it's a matter of time. so long as its happening, i can live with that. this isn't me playing a part in something trying to keep a game going because i can't detach.

survival, i don't want to contradict you, and it's not that i'd put it past her, but i am very certain my things, few as they are, are just fine. except for one shirt, which i know for a fact she cut up and decorated and wore out. which is, i suspect, the REAL reason she asked for a specific list. she was hoping i'd forget about that

anyway again, yes PART of my hesitancy to change my password is attachment, but im just being honest and upfront about that. it's not inhibiting me. i am just inquiring as to whether it's really an URGENT matter, if im making things even worse by not changing it, or whether or not it really matters at all when i change it.

[united for now]

If it were money she were taking out of your wallet, little by little - would that make a difference?

If she were sneeking into your house to riffle through your mail - would that make a difference?

Going ;through someone's email - especially on a regular routine basis - is a violation of personal space and a blatant sign of disrespect (I get this mental image of a dog peeing on all the mail boxes to mark his territory "mine"... ."mine"... ."mine too".

I personally don't see an IMMEDIATE need to change your password, though it "is" unhealthy to your healing to know that she is still keeping tabs on you, which worries me... .

[once removed]

ufn,

i do see it that way, for the most part. i feel violated, and the behavior is creepy, and that's an excellent illustration. especially since she literally tried to take my money, and i've continued to allow her to access the email. that's why i was concerned. i know i'm sending the wrong message, and enabling. i've tolerated it as a means to an end, but it does make a difference.

the last part of your reply is precisely what i was getting at. as long as the need isn't immediate, i'd be most comfortable waiting until i've gotten my things back to change the password, so long as there's progress. that's been the plan all along. if the primary concern is that it's a detriment to me, THAT i can live with. it impedes healing and detaching, but it definitely is not inhibiting them. i think im using the term correctly when i say i've come to heal, detach, understand, see all of this for what it is, etc, through radical acceptance. i feel increasingly detached from it all, and the email game. it's effect on me lessens regardless. it's a very sticky process when we speak directly, but i bounce back. so yes, that's what i was wondering about, the urgency. if it's a matter of me, i can handle it until i get my things, then i'll change the password, and then complete detachment begins.

[Tilery]

You know what I think... .I think you know it makes the most sense to just keep walking away as fast as you can. So what if she's got some of your things, theyre just possessions. Run hard, get away from this situation that has caused you such pain & distress. Change your password, let her go. That's what makes sense.

But you sound like you are in a process,& as we know, often it's 1 step forward & 2 steps back for a little while. You are trying,& for that I commend you. But I guess I just think it's worth acknowledging that these behaviors indicate you're still in this thing- which is ok, there's no shame in that.x

[2010]

It’s better to stop and think about the right direction rather than linger at the dead end. Sometimes bargaining with the disorder only makes you stay and dig your heels in deeper, which makes your life disordered.  Playing games and fighting fire with fire only gets you burned.  Let go of the possessions, they are not worth your sanity.  Borderline needs your acceptance. It is a disorder. Dont fight for control of the outcome of the disorder, as the disorder always wins. Don't let your behavior merge with it. Put down your boundaries and keep them. It's the only way out. 

[once removed]

tilery,

this really isn't about my inability to let her go, though. that was not the point of this post. and it's not about just simply getting my things back. it's not the things i care about. they're just a few shirts and dvds. i'm trying to force the exchange of our things precisely TO detach. because i believe it's a door she deliberately left open. a hook she's trying to leave. im trying to shut that door, and remove that hook, by forcing the exchange of our things. if i don't force it to happen, it's an opportunity for her to reengage in the future.

not having changed my password isn't about an inability to let her go. it's about whether or not me changing it now is absolutely crucial, and whether or not it might inhibit the progress that ive made in getting my things back.

there would also be no point in abandoning the pursuit of forcing the exchange at this point. if i do so, she will reengage over the issue at a later date. there's been progress made. it's going to happen, just slowly.

the point of this post wasn't even so much about the exchange of things. maybe i was misleading in writing about it to the extent i did, but that was for context. the only real point of this post was "how urgent is it that i change my password? how dangerous is the message i'm sending her by allowing her to access it? or is it not really a big deal/i can change it when im ready?"

[once removed]

2010,

i appreciate that. im concerned though. i've made real progress in getting my things. she deliberately avoided our exchanging things in the first place for a reason, and she's dragging it out for a reason. i presume, as a means of future reengagement. it's frankly more about her things than mine. she's GOING to want these things back. for me, it is a crucial step in detaching to cut off this avenue. it is not about getting my things back. i really believe she's accepting the inevitability, and that abandoning it now would serve no purpose other than allowing her to reengage in the future. it keeps me in the game just as much knowing that will happen. i'm really trying to shut that door.

i do realize playing games and fighting fire with fire is what i want to avoid, it's just not what i think im doing here, and i think that's the point that i missed in my post. this isn't "i want my things back. im gonna make her give them to me." it's as i've described, my attempt to shut a door she's blatantly left open, because otherwise she will come back through it. and i really believe, however slowly, that that is happening, and that i have no reason to abandon that. i'm really not losing my sanity over it. i know it's keeping me a bit disordered interacting with her at all, but im okay, and i really believe the best outcome, and the best thing for me would be to see to it that it happens. and again, i think it is.

[OTH]

it's just not what i think im doing here

This is exactly what you are doing here. You need to stop doing the borderline dance and start acting like an adult. You say you don't want her in your FB account. An adult would change the password. You say you want to exchange your stuff. Call her and set a date to do it. If she doesn't accept that and you really need to exchange some things you get the police involved. You are playing games and not being decisive. You can't force her to do the exchange and dancing around the issue is not going to get it resovled. Seriously.

she's GOING to want these things back

If it is just her things you are worried about... .put them in a storage unit in her name. Pay two months rent. Send her the paperwork and keys. Problems solved... .as a side note I told my ex that was what I was going to do (somebody else on the board gave me this advice) and she suddely showed up and started taking her things out. Took her 4 trips but she did get motivated.

[sarah1234]

Ok, well I agree with everyone else *am a sheep*

but I did think of some solutions that may work for you, without being 'explosive'. I do get where you are coming from on this, although I think being direct is the best option. Change your password and ask for your stuff back.

Get a new email account

Change your facebook and all your other things to this account

You could perhaps set up some sort of filter/forwarding to this new account

Never check your email ever again

This way, you are not checking on her, and even if she checks... .there is no new activity to see.

[Hazelnut]

What about your Facebook friends? Are they cool with having their personal messages to you read by a second party? My friend was involved with a CRAZY guy who hacked into her e-mail and sent threatening messages to anyone with a man's name, in a fit of jealousy. Threatened to e-mail naked pix to her kids at college, if she tried to break up with him.

Not to mention, he was able to read all the personal stuff she and I talked about in the wake of my break-up with BPD ex. I still don't feel quite right about e-mailing her.

[once removed]

oth,

i appreciate the advice, and i dont want to contradict anyone, but im left at a bit of a loss of words with things like "stop doing the borderline dance and start acting like an adult."

"an adult would change the password." would an adult consider the ramifications? at all? especially when he's not dealing with another adult, but a mentally ill and disordered person? isn't that what this board is for? not changing the password has nothing to do with excuses, or age, or inability. i'm dealing with a person who easily has their sense of abandonment triggered, and tends to react when it is. im triggering that sense of abandonment with the process of trying to get my things. changing my password in the midst of that process would no doubt further heighten that sense of abandonment. i think that's worth atleast considering. the question isn't "change my password or don't change my password?" i've written repeatedly that all along, my intention has been to change it as soon as i secure my things. it began to dawn on me that it might or might not be urgent to in fact do so sooner than i'd intended.

when you say "call her and set a date to do it" this is where i feel i'm either being misunderstood, or not clear. that has been done already. that is how i've behaved. there is no dance on my part. i have acted "strictly business." she has delayed it. okay. but its happening. is that not the goal? if i have to deal with slowness on her part, i don't see where im going wrong. police really don't need to be involved. and again, it isn't about "the things". it's that if *I* do not see this exchange through, she will use it in the future as a means of reengaging. i am trying to prevent that. i know i can't force her, but it's happening. it's not either or. i don't see a reason to either abandon, or change my approach, unless she DOES continue to delay.

here is the timeline that has occured:

march 21st i text her "i would like to return your things and pick up my own. will you please have mine ready on thursday night?"

she replies "i'm going to (another town) with my mom for a surgery and next week would be better."

"next week is fine. what day is best?

"i dont know yet i'll be in touch."

"okay thanks."

i don't think my actions were anything less than adult in that exchange, and i see no game playing or lack of decisiveness. i had to take her at her word. even though i suspected she was lying. so i waited two weeks, and she was not in touch.

april 5th i sent "haven't heard from you. just wondering when we can exchange things." after no reply for 24 hours i said "how about thursday of next week?" she replied "Sure". okay. i'd gotten a date out of her after two tries.

wednesday april 13th i sent "just wanted to remind you that i'll be over tomorrow to bring your things and get mine. should get there between 6 and 7."

she replied "i need you to email me what all you have there. so far there are a few clothing items, dvds, ... .i just want to make sure i get it all so be as specific as you can. next week is much better. i am very busy. my mom had surgery i've had to take care of her so that is my reasoning. not trying to keep your things from you." i replied "okay i'll email you."

there have been only 3 exchanges. progress has been made in each. she's gone over my things. she's asked for a list. she's cooperating. it's slow, but it's happening. this hasn't been a big dance or a game.

i have since emailed her. i proposed a date. i listed my things. i listed her things. i asked her if the date was good, if not to please pick a date and let me know. if she ignores this, or further delays, at that point i think it's time to reconsider the whole process and either abandon it or take more drastic measures.

i mean, i hear you, and i appreciate it, i really just think i must not have been clear enough about the situation and/or its progress. it may have been the length in which i wrote about all the other issues, but those again, were simply for context. i was just merely wondering if i had an urgent reason to really get on changing that password.

[once removed]

sarah,

thank you. i do like that idea, and i've considered it. i don't necessarily mind sending the overt message of changing my password though, ultimately. and the only problem i can think of is that she would very likely go back and read older messages, leave other traces, etc, and that atleast for a period of time, i might be tempted to continue to check. seems like it might be better for my sake to just overtly close that door. i agree with being direct, and i think i've done so with regards to asking for my things back.

[once removed]

hazelnut,

well my friends wouldn't honestly care much but i certainly would. i've instructed anyone who would, not to send me a message in the mean time, atleast not anything private. so instead she just opens my notifications, even though she can see all of my activity on facebook itself. mine was able to see a few personal things after our breakup. hilariously, she read a message from someone she HATES that sat there and dead on psychoanalyzed her, and told me to run as far away from her as possible. i don't really mind that she read that. mine isn't QUITE that crazy, but i suspect she's watching my activity with girls, and if there were any, i do think the limits to how crazy she can be might go out the window.

[housemouse]

This is when you call on your best friend. Ask him/her to go retreive your things and then change your email password forever. I feel for you, I know what it's like to want to know they care what you're doing but it's not worth the mental anguish they cause. Get your stuff (use a third person who won't get caught in her dance) and get OUT! She has obviously demonstrated that she isn't trustworthy and therfor not going to be a good partner or friend. So... .what are you hanging on for? More abuse? More validation? Both will be short lived. You sound like a pretty smart guy. ... .And quite introspective. So don't play her game. Instead move on and find someone who can do the ADULT dance with you!

housemouse

[once removed]

housemouse,

thank you. i don't think it would be necessary to use a third party in getting my things, and not really all that much of an option because she lives an hour away, but i do intend to bring a friend when i go to make the exchange. from what i've read it's best to have someone else present, and i think it'd serve to defuse any potential situation that may or may not come up.

[housemouse]

Luckystrikes,

Sounds like a good plan. Take someone with you so you won't end up having a "discussion" that ends up in her bed! Choose a male friend who would call you on your sht and not leave you alone no matter what!

[once removed]

by the way, i really very much appreciate all the advice i've been offered, and i don't want to sound defensive, or like someone who doesn't appreciate or can't take advice, or anything of the sort.

i think i gave a false impression in the context that i offered in my post. i really wasn't even asking for advice in the matter of exchanging our things. a lot of the advice offered has centered around my detachment process, or advising me to forget about exchanging things, or advising me how to go about it. i do welcome all suggestions, but i have my reasons for doing what im doing, reasons that directly involve detaching, and it's slowly working to my satisfaction.

what united for now was getting at was the matter i was trying to address. the URGENCY of changing my password. not whether or not i should. because i realize it's generally not good, that she's being allowed to access it. i realize im enabling that, and the message its sending. the only question i was posing was "how urgent is it? am i making matters much worse? or is it safe to change it on my own time?" or for example, "there may be ramifications when i change it, and i understand that. but is this a situation where the longer i don't change it, the WORSE the ramifications will actually be?"

again, i do welcome any and all suggestions, i just don't think i was clear as to my situation or what i was asking for.

[once removed]

housemouse,

haha, no worries. she has a new guy. i am prepared for anything from desperation, cold indifference, anger, hostility, pleading, begging, any of the above. i will not be inclined to get into it with her, have any kind of discussion with her, let alone get sucked into any reconciliation or romance. i honestly suspect she won't be able to face me period, and that we may end up just exchanging via her porch or something. if she is able to face me, from what i've read, i think i could expect her to either mirror and copy my indifference, or appear a bit nervous or scared. im nervous myself. that's the primary reason im bringing a friend. not because i don't think i could handle the encounter, but because it'll be an hour drive with a lot of anxiety, and i may or may not know what to expect. i don't know how it will effect me, probably profoundly, and the drive back may be tough too.

[Koro]

Original Poster.

Don't try to rationalize, defend your point or think you are being misread or misunderstood. Oh, believe me, everyone here understands your pain and agony. I do, too.

Here's my take:

If she have your stuff and you want it back: call the police. you will get it back in 3 days top. You can either arrange the police to give her the things you have and vice versa, and if she doesn't want, there's always the Domestic Violence division that can take care of that quickly, in a day or two, in a civilized matter.

You will always get a kick out of having even the slight contact with her. As someone already posted; you are dancing the BPD dance, unwillingly, without knowing it. As I posted right before this, you are collaborating to the BPD shtstorm, even if you are the only victim and this is not your fault and do not deserve it.

You need to enforce very strict NC, not just on her part, but on yours too. She is ill. Deranged. Unreliable. Crazy. She went with someone else the second you were looking back. You are abused and left hurt, wondering, emotionally dying, at the side of the road. But you have to believe us, you won't start to heal and realize things unless you enforce strict NC. Because, what will probably happen, and maybe you get happy after reading this, is that she will try to contact you back or get you back, as soon as everything else fails and/or she feels lonely or feels like it. Are you really prepared for that?

You already know all of this. Consider this a friendly reminder. If you want to pm me, please do so. I hope you are well.

[seeking balance]

LS,

I remember my bargaining phase well.  I did it for about 3 months, didn't take advice given on the legal boards, somehow thought that in my "not acting" that I was being generous, giving, unconditional in my love.

The fact is - it was self serving for me.  I was not able to let go, accept the facts of the disorder and face the pain.

Eventually, she will likely force you to face the pain - when you do, you will be ready to let go.

It's ok - we all get there in our own time.  I look back on some of my old posts and shake my head - how I wish I would have followed the advice.  I did it my way, got to the same result - perhaps with a bit more pain, but I still got to the same result.

Be patient and gentle with yourself - you will figure it out.

peace, sb

[once removed]

thank you sb.

[OTH]

Yes... .I was busting your chops a bit. SB gives good advice. Just giving my best advice. I know where you are coming from but disagree with your course of actions. Like SB says though. We have to follow our own paths. Good Luck!

[once removed]

oth,

i know you were offering your best advice, and i do appreciate it. please don't refrain from doing so in the future.

i just think i should have left out about half of my post as i put the focus on the wrong aspects, and way too much detail.

i will say if i don't get a reply to this email, or if things are further delayed, im definitely going to reevaluate the situation, probably abandon it, or possibly go the mailing route. i just don't want her to use it as a means of reengagement.

thank you again.

[seeking balance]

LS,

Here's a thought - why don't you give yourself 1 month "off" from this.  1 month where you don't care about the stuff, about your password - just dont care. 

I have seen others do this (I did it myself too) and we are able to find our own peace.  Removing myself from the drama/dance gave me strength when it was time to reingage, I was able to be logical and have clear boundaries.

Maybe a 30 day break will help you stop spinning on this.

Peace, SB

[once removed]

sb,

that's a great idea, and i think i'll try it. only thing is she will reengage before a months time. i'll just write off the situation until that time. thanks again.

[seeking balance]

sb,

that's a great idea, and i think i'll try it. only thing is she will reengage before a months time. i'll just write off the situation until that time. thanks again.

setting a boundary means you are taking a break for you - you don't have to reingage just because she does.