Empaths, Genetics and Them

[diotima]

oops, my bad! ;p

[schwing]

I think this is a great discussion.

And I wanted to add my own 2 bits, ideas that haven't been mentioned yet (I think).

(1) Technically lack of empathy is a trait of narcissism and not borderline personality disorder; but who is to say that your BPD loved one didn't have narcissistic traits.  All I know is that the pwBPD in my life have demonstrated high degrees of perceiving accurately, other people's feelings; they were/are very sensitive people -- by my thinking, that kind of perception suggests a high degree of empathy.  Honestly I think a pwBPD could make a great therapist (provided they can maintain their professional objectivity).

However, I expect that when their own feelings are engaged, I believe these feelings overwhelm any tendency for them to perceive, to empathize with other people's feelings.  So I can see how when their own feelings are at stake, one might speculate that they don't have any ability to empathizes with the plights of others.  I only suppose that they can, just not with people (us) with whom they are dysfunctionally enmeshed.

(2) I find the discussion re: genetics vs. development interesting.  I'd like to throw some comments into the mix.  I remember reading somewhere, sometime (sorry I can't cite any references... .my bad) that some professionals (I assume) consider BPD to be a specialize expression of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD); I'm really drawn to this idea.

As I see it, we don't really have any good means to measure when anyone might actually develop PTSD.  I might speculate that it depends upon a mix of a person's temperament.  Some people might have a genetic predisposition.  And so depending upon an individual's development up until the point of their trauma experience, they might be more or less resilient in coping with the trauma.  (Of course another variable is the nature of the trauma itself.)  But for whatever reasons, given a specific traumatic event, some people walk away from it less scarred than others, and some develop PTSD.

Now.  My understanding is that BPD develops from an "abandonment trauma event" which occurred in early development (and thus arresting their emotional development).  And there are different kinds of traumas.  Some are a specific event, such as a sudden loss of a parental figure (mommy or daddy).  Some are more chronic in nature, such as repetitive abusive interaction with a parental figure. OR some may experience a *perceived* abandonment traumatic event.  And depending upon an individual's temperament (which is affected by a person's genetic predispositions and development environment up until that point), some people develop BPD, some people I imagine don't.  I guess for those who do, it affects their development there on out.  

[once removed]

I think this is a great discussion.

And I wanted to add my own 2 bits, ideas that haven't been mentioned yet (I think).

(1) Technically lack of empathy is a trait of narcissism and not borderline personality disorder; but who is to say that your BPD loved one didn't have narcissistic traits.  All I know is that the pwBPD in my life have demonstrated high degrees of perceiving accurately, other people's feelings; they were/are very sensitive people -- by my thinking, that kind of perception suggests a high degree of empathy.  Honestly I think a pwBPD could make a great therapist (provided they can maintain their professional objectivity).

However, I expect that when their own feelings are engaged, I believe these feelings overwhelm any tendency for them to perceive, to empathize with other people's feelings.  So I can see how when their own feelings are at stake, one might speculate that they don't have any ability to empathizes with the plights of others.  I only suppose that they can, just not with people (us) with whom they are dysfunctionally enmeshed.

completely agree. my ex could see the wrong, or lack of logic in any other persons behavior. she could articulate how the victim must feel as a result. she would also compare herself to other crazy girls. she'd annoy herself ranting about them until she was blue in the face, but when the situation was about her, as we're all familiar, logic/rationality/facts/etc were out the window.

i think there's something off though. i think my ex displayed a sort of 'half empathy'. she knew to show it. she knew what to do to show it. i never saw her really climb down there with me and feel it though.

[eeyore]

Schwing very interesting input... .

when I look at my BF's childhood I see two functioning parents who did their best given their circumstances.  I see two parents who raised their children in a loving Christian home.

However, when I hear my BF he describes being the youngest of 3 boys and that the two older boys picked on him.  His middle brother was very troubled and the parents spent much of their time "putting out the fires".  In essence he describes  feels he had a neglected (lack of attention) childhood where he escaped his brothers by starting working as a youth.  Neglect would not be a word he would use and I wonder why.   Could also be when he felt the abandonment.  He  says he couldn't wait to leave home and move away.  Hence not attachments.  His middle brother was in High school when he died in a car accident.   Perhaps the accident was the PTSD event after years of feeling like he didn't matter as his other brothers were more important?

And so that still leads me to to how does one over come it? 

[diotima]

Yes Schwing, interesting.

I know from having me my ex's mother that the PSTD/BPD fits given that she repeatedly shamed and abused him throughout his childhood--and she was completely unpredictable. He was very quick on the defense at the slightest hint of possible shame. He is definitely BPD but reacts the way someone does with PSTD. Also, couldn't wait to leave home.

As for empathy: he could often read other people very well but I don't think it is true empathy--it was his brilliant mind figuring out what needed to be said. He knew what to say, especially when there might be something in it for him (really good at that--manipulative). Anyway, people who don't know him are charmed by him. When it came to something involving him, his preferred mode of reaction was to attack and blame me (and others), which I am sure he learned interacting with his BPD mother. A good defense was always a pre-emptive strike.

Diotima

[bud light]

I think the genetic/environmental factors are most likely interactive.  They are finding the infant brain quite "plastic", meaning it is affected by environment, but rooted in genetics of its brain. 

For someone with infantile trauma (or abuse, as some trauma is not abuse, but a sad fate of life) their brains do not "gel" across the amygdala/limbic region for normal emotional responses.  With regard to empathy, it is quite impossible to generate empathy while someone is "smashing your toe with a large hammer"... .which is how many BPD's easily feel.

Also, trauma can be an isolated incident, even in the womb. When an infant's head is played with there can be visual/retinal hemorrhages among other issues in the brain.  Some suffer abuse as brain injuries from "shaking baby syndrome."   25% of those kids shaken by an angry parent die from hemorrhaging. So what happens to the other 75%? Also breathing constriction can cause trauma (if stopped long enough) and many other non-abusive traumas.  They say 75% of BPD sufferers have had early abuse/trauma, many with sexual abuse.  The remaining 25% could likely have a small genetic link (no matter what they will have PBD, maybe 1-3%?) and the rest of that % could have had unperceived trauma (not abuse), but difficult to discern and identify.

So, to say, that most of BPD issues are genetic, would be a real tragedy.  I think the real issue is that too many people have children who are not capable of being good parents.  And our permissive culture allows it, preferring the rights of the parent over the importance of healthy children.  As a teacher, it is the same in the schools. The bottom line for most childhood issues, is the parent (I did say "most" here, mom and dad.)  And if a BPD mother has a child it will undoubtedly have it, not primarily because of genetics, but due to her abusive, non-empathic "nurturing ability?"

Also, regarding accountability for BPD sufferers... .they aer not accountable for how they came to be, but are when they can feel something is wrong... .quite wrong.  It is also our culture and our greed to blame, as we do not have any protections in place to "hold BPD sufferers down" long enough to get them to see their plight (many are ignorant to semi-ignorant.)

After all, we hold socipaths down... .in jails, after major damage... .but we let BPD abusers and pre-incarcerated Sociopaths go as they wish, creating an unhealthy path of human carnage along the way-again, for the sake of "permissability in our culture.  Many, many unrelated people pay for this stuff, far too often.

[bud light]

but hey, dont you think Big Pharma would love to put a large "coat of genetic-pill-poppin' paint" over the whole BPD issue.  I think one must be very careful with the genetic blame game.  Big Pharma is only interested in $$.  Who cares if it only masks the symptoms of abuse outwardly, while inwardly the person is in serious pain. Hell, it makes money don't it Charlie?

[TheSomberlain]

I think the genetic/environmental factors are most likely interactive.  They are finding the infant brain quite "plastic", meaning it is affected by environment, but rooted in genetics of its brain. 

For someone with infantile trauma (or abuse, as some trauma is not abuse, but a sad fate of life) their brains do not "gel" across the amygdala/limbic region for normal emotional responses.  With regard to empathy, it is quite impossible to generate empathy while someone is "smashing your toe with a large hammer"... .which is how many BPD's easily feel.

Also, trauma can be an isolated incident, even in the womb. When an infant's head is played with there can be visual/retinal hemorrhages among other issues in the brain.  Some suffer abuse as brain injuries from "shaking baby syndrome."   25% of those kids shaken by an angry parent die from hemorrhaging. So what happens to the other 75%? Also breathing constriction can cause trauma (if stopped long enough) and many other non-abusive traumas.  They say 75% of BPD sufferers have had early abuse/trauma, many with sexual abuse.  The remaining 25% could likely have a small genetic link (no matter what they will have PBD, maybe 1-3%?) and the rest of that % could have had unperceived trauma (not abuse), but difficult to discern and identify.

So, to say, that most of BPD issues are genetic, would be a real tragedy.  I think the real issue is that too many people have children who are not capable of being good parents.  And our permissive culture allows it, preferring the rights of the parent over the importance of healthy children.  As a teacher, it is the same in the schools. The bottom line for most childhood issues, is the parent (I did say "most" here, mom and dad.)  And if a BPD mother has a child it will undoubtedly have it, not primarily because of genetics, but due to her abusive, non-empathic "nurturing ability?"

Also, regarding accountability for BPD sufferers... .they aer not accountable for how they came to be, but are when they can feel something is wrong... .quite wrong.  It is also our culture and our greed to blame, as we do not have any protections in place to "hold BPD sufferers down" long enough to get them to see their plight (many are ignorant to semi-ignorant.)

After all, we hold socipaths down... .in jails, after major damage... .but we let BPD abusers and pre-incarcerated Sociopaths go as they wish, creating an unhealthy path of human carnage along the way-again, for the sake of "permissability in our culture.  Many, many unrelated people pay for this stuff, far too often.

Highly anecdotal and dismissive of the etiology of the majority of mental illnesses. Attrition in the womb could be argued for any mental illness because it has no strong argument here. You're forgetting the chicken and egg argument. If BPD, which has also been found to house a panoply of other mental illnesses (comorbidity) is largely genetic, which is more likely than not, a parent has it as well. For a mental illness that has such a high comorbidity with other mental illnesses that are attributed through genetics, it would make little sense to say that BPD is not greatly at the helms of genetic predisposition. A mentally unstable parent begets bad parenting, naturally. There is a reason why twin studies have shown a 35% increase in development in BPD symptoms* and that BPD is FIVE times more common among first-degree relatives**.

*Torgersen S (March 2000). "Genetics of patients with borderline personality disorder". Psychiatr Clin North Am 23 (1): 1–9

**DSM IV p. 709

[nona]

having watched my own 4th child not be able to interpret my facial expressions and respond as the first 3 did... .

Im watching the brain hardwiring with my own eyes... in  a child being raised with full contact attachment parenting.

child did not bond normally like the others.

misinterprets input all the time, occasionally spontaneously expresses empathy ""whew!"

child also has uBPD daddy's genes.

my first 3 kids bonded "normally" (other genes)

more will be revealed.

i am looking at the route of the fear centers in the brain that illicit empathy.

this can apparently be completely non functioning in some "otherly functional" individuals.

[schwing]

Hi WhiteDoe,

I understand fully, that my focus must be on “me”…. What attracted me to and kept me in a relationship that was “abusive”…

Having said this, I am interested in understanding this lack of any empathy in BPD and in NPD…...

... .I don’t know why I struggle so to accept this? I guess I just cannot believe that anyone truly can be that “out of touch” with another?

I think I understand some of what it is you struggle with.  For the longest time I emphatically thought that I understood (better than anyone else, I thought) what my exBPD loved one was thinking and feeling.  In spite of the fact that some of what I believed to be true of her, directly contradicted what I was told about her and what I read about personality disorders.  For a long time after finding out about borderline personality disorder, I struggled with accepting that she suffered from it -- now, long after I've accepted it, I can see how she met many of the criteria for the disorder.

Part of the reason why I did not fully accept that she had BPD, was, I believe, because I had still continued to project many of my traits onto her; I suspect this was all a result of her mirroring me so thoroughly during our relationship.  I felt so strongly about her, that I *needed* to believe she felt similarly towards me; in spite of the fact that her last actions in our relationship contradicted what I wanted (needed) to believe about her.

It may be that you need to believe that your BPD loved one could not be so "out of touch" with you because for a long time in your relationship, you believed he was so "in touch" with you.  To believe this about him now, would negate everything you believed was true about him in your recent past -- and that can be a hard pill to swallow.

My understanding of this disorder is that at the early onset of the relationship, when their disordered feelings are not very strong, they can exhibit a great deal of empathy.  But as the relationship develops, as their disordered feelings amass, their disordered feelings override any empathy, sympathy or compassion -- what becomes most important to them is dealing with their disordered feelings, that would look a lot like a "lack of empathy."

After the horrific shock and betrayal of being “dumped” (and yet also, repeatedly being made love to over Valentine’s Day… Aghhh?) with no explanation I went into completely despair, confusion… He told me that he did not want me to join him on the HN getaway trip and that I “wasn’t the one” for him… He said that he “didn’t know why but he had to end our r/s and that it was a paradox b/c he did love me very much?… aghh?

It is a paradox, but my understanding of BPD is exactly that: the more intimately connected they feel towards someone, the more their disordered feelings (i.e., fear of abandonment) are triggered.  So in a sense, it is *because* he loved you very much that he also felt that he *had* to end your relationship.  

This doesn't make sense from a *non-disordered* (i.e., yours and mine) perspective.  But that is not his perspective.

Then, when he got back from his NH getaway with his girls (about 2 weeks later), he sent me an email… I didn’t respond – I couldn’t… He wrote me again about 3 days later saying that he was worried b/c it was not like me to “not respond” to his notes…Aghh?  

He wrote to you because at that moment he *needed* you.  It had nothing to do with his excuse for why he wrote.  One rule of thumb, one should never "listen" to what they say, "listen" only to what they do.  Their actions will tell you their meaning and intent.

When he did not need you, he treated you as if you did not exist.  When he needed you, he made you feel guilty when what is closer to the truth is that he should feel guilty for how he was treating you.

I felt physically “ill” when I got that note from him? How could any human being be that “clueless” and unfathomably cruel? It was actually a very “sweet note” but OMG?

At the time that he wrote that (and perhaps at all other times that he had known you) he was only aware of what he was going through and what he wanted.  At that time he wanted you to respond to him in a pleasant manner, so he wrote you a "pleasant" letter.

It makes me wonder if all the other times he wrote to you, he was using in effect a similar calculus.  It was just that before, without any history with him, you were reacting exactly as he would have you.  But the minute things got more complicated, his method failed to produce his desired outcome.

Is this lack of empathy for real?

Seems pretty real to me.

Is this NPD in your opinion?

He could very well be NPD comorbid with BPD.  Or perhaps he has dissociated enough memories of what had happened that he honestly had no way of anticipating your reaction.  Either way, it reveals a great deal of mental disorder on his end.

Do you believe that anyone could be soo utterly insensitive as this? Is this possible or was it intentional cruelty?

If you accept that he is mentally disordered, then you may have to give up the notion that he is merely "insensitive" or that he is horribly "cruel."  He may simply be clearly disordered.

I just can’t get my head around his behavior… Maybe I just don't get narcissism? It is surreal, unfathomable to me... .How can this be "missing", for real?

I think you can't get your head around this behavior because you have still not come to terms with how you choose to interpret it.  That's ok.  This part is your process, but don't beat yourself up over it.

Best wishes, Schwing

[nona]

I was so stuck back in OCT I went to counseling to see if validation would help, HIRED 2 ! not 1 T, he was too slick for one counselor at a time. as at this point UBPDH would dysregulate in about 5 minutes of my PRESENCE. With not only lies, delusions and rage, but EVERY ATTEMPT to elicit empathy resulted in attack or victim state. he was absolutely unable to find or demonstrate ANY EMPATHY. that cost $2000.00/4 sessions, and left me with weeks of PTSD from the counseling experience. The T's were more shocked, I was Validated, and disappointed.

I so relate to these stages we get stuck at.

I have been stuck in the damn malignant hope, pink bubble, majical thinking crap, and Im seeing haw terribly damaging this particular piece is. I am so vulnerable and dissociate from the terrible truths.

[schwing]

Hi WhiteDoe,

Feel free to start a new thread if you'd like and toss me a note so that I know where to find it.  For now I will continue to reply to your post in this thread.

I still “find excuses” to NOT believe that he is truly mentally ill. I go around in circles with my denial of this diagnosis. I seem to “fight” to believe this? How could he have been in a marriage for 25 years? How can he have replaced me so quickly and is now 10 months into another “seemingly’ successful relationship? I have had no closure, no validation of his illness. My head spins in the confusion while my heart remains broken into pieces, devastated, in despair?

Yes, he does meet the criteria for both NPD and BPD. Yes, he has a family history of personality disordered behavior. Yet, I don’t want to accept this. I feel “stuck” in my own “mental disorder”?

I remember experiencing this kind of ambivalence.  And the way I chose to interpret it was as thus: even though intellectually I accepted the situation, "emotionally" I was not yet ready to do so.  I see it as similar to trying to explain to a child the motivations and processes of an important person in their life when they are not yet ready to accept things beyond their own emotional and psychologically processes (i.e., consider a child experiencing a divorce of his/her parents).  It is not unlike when a person with BPD (pwBPD) is not yet ready to accept the possibility of their own diagnosis.

The denial serves us in the short term.  Work with it.  Not with impatience and insensitivity, but with compassion and persistence... .towards ourselves.

Sure he was in a marriage for 25 years, but that could speak to the depth of his relationships dysfunctionality, rather than as any indicator of his own mental health.  The fact that he could replace you so quickly and absolutely is a sign of a kind of attachment *disorder* -- it is a sign of his disorder and not necessarily an indicator of good mental health.

You have no closure *from him* nor will you get any.  But your own experience, your own feelings are sufficient validation of the dysfunctional nature of your relationship with him.  Your heart is broken.  And it needs to be nursed back to health.  His "heart" is operating on a wholly different paradigm.

Yes, perhaps “mirroring” had a lot more to do with how amazingly compatible we were? In our beginnings, he seemed so genuinely interested in everything that I loved? He was so willing to “try new things” with me... .This was to the point where it seemed “a little odd” to me at times? For my BDay our first year together he bought me the identical iPod gift that I had bought him for his BDay that year? Same exact iPod with the same “idea” only instead of filling the iPod full of songs that he knew I would love, he filled it full of songs that he loved? I was so touched by this gift ….but I actually already had that exact iPod model? He knew this? Hmm? Was this “mirroring”? I felt a little “awkward” when I opened it up? But, I did truly think it was sweet that he wanted to share his style of music with me?

Think of their "mirroring" as something that is not done in order to consciously manipulate people, but almost as a kind of reflex on their end.  Part of the disorder is "identity disturbances"; they literally don't know or have a sense of who they are.  So when he was reflexively mirroring you, he truly believe that everything you loved, he loved.  But when the mirroring was starting to be replaced by other disordered feelings, he still also believed that everything he loved, you would love.  Perhaps in a sense, he didn't know whose idea it was to give the iPod, it just felt like the right thing to do for him.

Yes, Schwing... .to believe that he is mentally disordered negates all that I “needed” to believe was true about the way he “loved me” and what I truly meant to him, our relationship, our passionate lovemaking, our dream of a future together... .I have not wanted to accept this!  Although my love was very real as was my commitment to “us”, he is/was incapable of true love (at least not for me?) and was merely playing out a “fantasy”... .Aghh, so painful to take in and believe, to accept?... .And so confusing to me even after knowing about BPD/NPD... .

An academically brilliant, successful lawyer who has the emotionally development of a “child”? No, I don’t want to believe it. I don’t want to believe that he never loved me and that I was an “object”, a form of narcissistic supply... .I was “used”. Yes, a very bitter pill to swallow... .You are so right on.

Don't expect to accept it overnight, or too quickly.  I don't think this is a kind of bandaid you can pull off quickly.  You can only pull off, as much as you can handle.  And recover a bit before you pull the next part off.  Compassion and persistence.

Even though it may be "true" that he used you.  That does not mean you can easily (or would want to) dismiss the very real feelings you experienced.  It will take time, patience, and diligence before you can bridge that disconnect.  Get as much support for yourself as you can muster.

He had some “seemingly” sensitive moments in our beginnings but, through my therapy, I am clearly seeing that his “sensitive” moments were self-serving... .Aghh... .It was always “all about him”... .I just thought he was “stressed out” over his ongoing divorce process... .I honestly don’t know whether or not he ever even finalized the divorce papers? And, yet he is “in love” (yes, he told me this) with someone else now?

[/color]

He is "in love" with someone else because this is the nature of his disorder... .a "pattern of intense and unstable interpersonal relationships."  I can only speculate why they do that, and I suspect that by constantly having someone external to himself to play out his psychological dissonances, he never has to face the prospect that the biggest dissonance lies within his own psyche.  As long as his problems can be blamed on someone else he will never have to come to terms with his own mental disorder.  

My therapist tells me that he was “over the top” in love with me... .That he idealized me and being “devalued” had to happen as no one can remain “on a pedestal” forever.  T tells me that my ex could NOT handle those intense feelings that he had for me, Aghh?

Well... outside of just reacting to his feelings, I don't think pwBPD have the emotional resources to carry on a healthy, adult, interpersonal relationship where there is emotional give and take, especially when the emotional stakes become high.

Aghh, so unconscionably cruel... .but, reality. When he doesn’t need me, I don’t exist. Yes, he has a new girlfriend, therefore I am now dead... .Please tell me that this is not “normal” behavior, that this is honestly personality disordered behavior, BPD/NPD? God, this hurts!

Do I need to tell you that this is not "normal"?  This kind of behavior barely passes as normal for the behavior of adolescents, much less for an academically brilliant, successful lawyer who is appropriately emotionally developed.

Sounds again, like it was always “all about him”, Schwing? I was apparently “invisible”… There only to fulfill his needs? God, how can this be humanly possible? Aghh, I get it, BPD/NPD, right?

You might try to cultivate acceptance through another angle.  :)o not try to understand *his* behavior from *his* perspective, try to understand it from *your* perspective.  You were abandoned in a cruel and absolute manner.  There was no gentle distancing.  There was no meeting of minds.  There was no mutual understanding.  He was there, very deeply in your heart and mind.  And then suddenly, he was no longer there.

One does not "get over" abandonment of this nature very easily.  And there is a great deal of denial involved in such a cruel betrayal.  You don't want to accept it because it is very very painful.  Perhaps too painful for you some of the time.  And when it is too painful, you do not accept it.  And this is ok.  Just know that your denial is there to protect you.  But make certain that your denial does not cause you to make decisions you will later regret.  In time, the denial is slowly replaced by acceptance.  So long as you continue to take care of yourself.

Yes, you are right... .His “insensitivity" and subsequent “cruelty” are “symptoms” of his mental disorder... . Is this how I should view it and find some way to put it all to rest? This seems to be so difficult for me and I am not certain why? Perhaps more of my "own" stuff... .I am so blessed to have such a patient and talented T... .I never realized how much "work" I have needed to do on "me"... .

It's not "work."  It's you taking care of yourself.  And you deserve no less.

Best wishes, Schwing