Envy of them

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I envy them.

There. I said it.

So many times we say, and see others say, "it is horrible to be BPD"; "I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy"; "Living with it is hell on earth".

Yes, those are all correct.

But I envy them on one thing: The ability to read people so well. The ability to use that gift to mirror people. To make the people think in 3 months they have found their soulmates. To make the impossible possible.

Normal relationships require patience, start off with insecurity which (hopefully) grows into security, trust develops over time. BPD relationships start off fast and furious, start with the feeling with utmost security (only to turn into the utmost insecurity), begin with an inexplicable sense of trust only for it to be completely shattered later on. The complete opposite in every sense.

But their gift - their ability - to turn this process around - to make slow fast - to make people believe what you want them to believe... .

Wouldn't you want such a gift?

There, I said it.

Sue me.

[SunflowerFields]

I envy them.

There. I said it.

So many times we say, and see others say, "it is horrible to be BPD"; "I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy"; "Living with it is hell on earth".

Yes, those are all correct.

But I envy them on one thing: The ability to read people so well. The ability to use that gift to mirror people. To make the people think in 3 months they have found their soulmates. To make the impossible possible.

Normal relationships require patience, start off with insecurity which (hopefully) grows into security, trust develops over time. BPD relationships start off fast and furious, start with the feeling with utmost security (only to turn into the utmost insecurity), begin with an inexplicable sense of trust only for it to be completely shattered later on. The complete opposite in every sense.

But their gift - their ability - to turn this process around - to make slow fast - to make people believe what you want them to believe... .

Wouldn't you want such a gift?

There, I said it.

Sue me.

[whatarideout]

But their gift - their ability - to turn this process around - to make slow fast - to make people believe what you want them to believe... .

Wouldn't you want such a gift?

no.

it's not a gift. it's manipulation. i would NEVER want to manipulate someone into thinking that i am there "soulmate".

i would have to have a serious mental illness to even consider such a scenario.

[turtle]

But their gift - their ability - to turn this process around - to make slow fast - to make people believe what you want them to believe... .

Wouldn't you want such a gift?

There, I said it.

Sue me.

Hmm... .so who would you like to use this gift on? 

Who do you want to control in such a way?

Even if you could do it, you would NEVER know that their thoughts and feelings were the truth.  You'd always be wondering if they were really YOUR thoughts and feelings.

For me, a better gift, is to be secure enough in myself to let others just be who they are -- then it is my responsibility to see if that's something I want in my world or not.

turtle

[SunflowerFields]

who would you like to use this gift on?  

Who?

Let me see.

Sun Tzu wrote the Art of War, on the techniques of winning wars before they have begun. It is considered one of the most powerful books from diplomacy to actual military.

Machiavelli's Prince, one of the most devious little books written, is a requirement in political science. It is all about manipulation.

Gerry Spence, a famous trial lawyer who never lost a single case, wrote a best-selling book on the skills of persuasion.

Books on the art of seduction, or obtaining power. They list precise steps on how to do things. They are straight out of BPD's playbook.

Movies have been made, books have been written, on Casanova, the ultimate seducer, or the likes of Cleopatra, his female equivalent. Not because of history, but because people are fascinated with their personal power to reel people in.

Tonight I realized I bought some of these books over the years, but never bothered to study them in detail or put them into practice. Now I realize there must have been a subconscious reason I did. Because I never, ever in my life actually tried to manipulate anyone. When perhaps it could have been useful, in variety of settings.

Who would one use this on?

Who would one not?

[turtle]

When perhaps it could have been useful, in variety of settings.

Who would one use this on?

Who would one not?

Well then... .what is your plan?    .

turtle

[2010]

Books on the art of seduction, or obtaining power. They list precise steps on how to do things. They are straight out of BPD's playbook.

Actually it's straight from the Narcissist's playbook. Borderlines actually don't have grandiose fantasies that center around the self as the center of the Universe. Narcissists do and they seek to subsume human satellites for gain. Those human satellites are very often Borderlines, as the two work around "what can you do for me/what can I do for you" actions.

Narcissists are responsible for most of the petty tyrant activity in businesses, government and volunteering- especially in Western culture where the individual is king. (Eastern cultures are more group identity.)

Borderlines have not been given the skills necessary to stand alone and they seek to attach by any means possible. They suffer shame and are unable to verbally communicate what they cannot internally acknowledge. This is the disorder.  Since they have not been taught that they have a right to "feel" their feelings, they attempt to hide them until the feelings become unmanageable- leading them to act out in passive aggressive game playing, creating misunderstandings and distorted perceptions and mayhem.

It's been said by many theorists that Narcissism is the tamer of the two disorders as it is fairly obvious when talking to a person with a grandiose self.  Borderlines are hidden until triggered- another reason to accept the personality as not intentionally manipulative- but reactionary.

[timebomb]

I will say this... i got played for a fool but damn she was good at playing the game! The reason why they are so good is they have no conscience... if you and i tried to pull what they do our conscience would get to us and we would stop. i don't envy them because they live miserable lives and nothing in their life is fullfilling... imagine searching for something to bring you peace of mind and you never find it... thats the life of a BPD person.

[beyondbelief]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to good at persuasion.  It is the motives and the extent one is willing to do anything to get your way that makes the difference.  When I convince the kids to do their homework and make it seem like it was their idea then I am helping them.

If we wanted to almost all of us could convince someone we were their soulmate pretty quickly.  It isn't hard to find out how to do it.  All it would take would be finding someone who for whatever reason had some attraction to us and then doing what it takes.  

It is true that some pwBPD are very very good at it.  It isn't that they have ESP, it is far more likely they have just had a lot of practice.  

Almost anyone could pick up a gun and shoot someone just for the fun of it.  I don't envy those who actually do it.

[MaK]

This is how I feel about being manipulated!          

[diotima]

Hmm, just because Machiavelli, Sun Tzu and others wrote books about persuasion and films have been made about it doesn't make it "good" or that these should be playbooks for intimate r/s's. BB said something about the motives being important--yes. I think we would need to look at the situation in Italy (Machiavelli) and China (Sun Tze), and elsewhere to evaluate their messages. Context is important too. I don't want N's and BPDs to be my role models, much as I can understand the feelings that might lead me to fantasize selectively applying these methods in some situations in retaliation. 

Diotima

[MaybeSo]

I can't say I envy it. But I have developed a healthy respect for, and a much better sense of, people who come off as charming/seductive while being interpersonally exploitative and manipulative. It's not a quality in myself that I wish to hone.  Being intelligently persuasive with either benign or positive intent is fine as long as we are self aware and are not trampling boundaries.

[Clearmind]

Nup! I think we also read them well too - we just ignored it.

[redberry]

I don't know, I guess I'd like the ability to read people better but my biggest problem is that I ignore gut reactions and second guess myself too often.  If I had just paid attention to the things I instinctively knew were wrong at the start of the r/s, I wouldn't have gotten hurt so bad.

I think of it more as a hypersensitivity than a sixth sense.  For instance, if you knew there was a prowler in your house, you would be hypersensitive to every noise and everything you saw while you were on edge to protect yourself from harm.  I think this is how they operate 24/7--in that protective mode full of anxiety so their senses are heightened.  I don't really envy that. 

[ajr5679]

The only thing i envy is the way she can leave people behind. she told me that when she brake up with someone it take her weeks to miss them.

i guess now i know she misses them when she needs them. i would not to have to think of her so much and be able to move on .

[Beach_Babe]

The only thing i envy is the way she can leave people behind.

yeah me too... .must be nice

[Willy]

I like the prowler comparison, thats how they must feel constantly.

I could use some more persuasion power. What you would like is like a pwBPD to be able to be more adaptable in social situations. When I am not a good mood, people can notice it. A pwBPD seems to be able to hide it and be happy and funny on command.

Borderlines have not been given the skills necessary to stand alone and they seek to attach by any means possible. They suffer shame and are unable to verbally communicate what they cannot internally acknowledge. This is the disorder.  Since they have not been taught that they have a right to "feel" their feelings, they attempt to hide them until the feelings become unmanageable- leading them to act out in passive aggressive game playing, creating misunderstandings and distorted perceptions and mayhem.

It's been said by many theorists that Narcissism is the tamer of the two disorders as it is fairly obvious when talking to a person with a grandiose self.  Borderlines are hidden until triggered- another reason to accept the personality as not intentionally manipulative- but reactionary.

I agree that Narcists can be more recognizable on the outside. pwBPD can be more submissive IMO. A real mind boggler, being submissive, easy going on the outside and play the P.A. games under water. Oh, and the mayhem they can create, always outside their fault of course (and being a victim all the time). But they seem to be a magnet to mayhem, where ever they go, it always follows them.

[Goofy Goober]

This isn't a gift; it's a curse.

While we have to dig deep, confront ouselves and in the end only come out stronger than before, they still will be shallow and insecure and there's always that 99,9% chance they will fvck up their relationship(s). It's what seperates the sheep from the flock.

I'd pick a normal relationship over a BPD one anytime.

[harlemgurl]

They're unintentionally conniving and cunning because they are perpetually living in "survival mode." Behind all the manipulative survival tactics lives a hollowed emptiness. They don't "know"  what they're doing and sometimes us nons give them way more credit for their tactics than they deserve.

I'm with Goofy Goober; its a curse.

Having BPD is living in a very emotionally primitive world and that's certainly nothing to envy. It may seem that they are getting away with capital murder by being able steam roll relationships without a care but they certainly pay for that karmically. Why do you think they have a 10 percent suicidal rate? Put yourself in their shoes. Can you imagine yourself only being able to FEEL two primal emotions: guilt and shame?  ? ;p  ? :'( As they get older the two basic emotions they feel only intensify. They don't have a lot of emotional range and its quite painful living in such a perpetually stunted emotional state.

No envy here; they are quite broken and live in a very dark world of insecurity.

If anything I'd say they envy us and rightfully so. I know my ex did. My ex envied how loving I was, he envied how my friends loved and valued me. He envied my authenticity and my ability to be genuine. He envied my generousness. He envied all of my shades of grey; shades of grey that his reptilian brain couldn't muster. I can't imagine my life without shades of grey; I personally believe that's why they're in so much constant pain. People don't "get" them and they don't "get" people.

I've learned a lot about this disorder and it certainly has made me appreciate having the ability to be generous, compassionate, empathetic, caring, trusting, and having integrity. A person with BPD would kill to have these qualities. They try their best and their damnedest to feign these qualities but they always fall short because the aforementioned qualities are qualities that you have to grow into.

I've read the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene. It's a great book but there is a chapter on Anti-Seducers and people with BPD hands down fall right in that category. There's no emotional payoff in being with them because BPD relationships are soul sucking, unsatisfying and deeply unfulfilling. There's no happy ending with them and they know it.

Nothing to envy at all.

HG

[redberry]

Very insightful, Harlem as always.  I constantly have to remind myself to look past the facade.  They're master magicians when it comes to presenting happiness and togetherness when, i suppose, there is a constant tornado inside.  Ugh.  I don't envy that.

Interesting that the emotions intensify with age.  As I posted before, I always read in the "scholarly writings" that BPD lessens with age.  Clearly not the case from what I'm seeing on these posts.  When in doubt, I'm going with you guys! 

[diotima]

Excellent post as always HG. I agree on the intense shame as core feeling and that their emotional life is shallow. There is some other primitive emotional state (like to think of it as a proto-emotion) connected with fusion that has a strong intense pleasure with it (not sure exactly what to call it and they think it is "love", but then that triggers the abandonment shame. They also feel anger. Your thoughts on the fusion emotion?

Diotima

[Finallyfree123]

I agree with everything HG said except the fact that they don't now what they are doing. I believe they do know but can't help it because it is all they know.

My uBPDexbf would give reasons for his actions and make excuses for them. He never once said he didn't realize what he was doing. All his reason were self centered of course.

I also agree with 2010- it is a curse. They are fueled by guilt, shame and pain.

I don't envy anything about them.