Understanding it's not that we aren't "good enough"

[PinkieD]

I've been checking on exBPDbf on facebook off and on.  I know I shouldn't be, but it helps me to open my eyes and see his behavior in the daylight. 

I notice he has LOTS of ladies flirting and a few who seem to have gone out with him.  The funny part is that some of these ladies are ones who were in and out of his life from even before I met him.  (recycling harem?)

One of these ladies who has chased long and hard - possibly to prove to him she isn't going to abandon him -  posted something to the effect of why'd you take HER to dinner and not me?  So obviously he has pushed her away and sprinted after another.

My point for this long explanation is this:  I've been thinking with my low self esteem about him wanting other women.  It seems that maybe, just maybe, it doesn't matter WHO the lady is, or how much she gives to him, or how pretty, etc. she is, it will STILL NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM to stick around.

Thoughts?

[beyondbelief]

You are exactly right.  They are looking to fill a internal void that no one can possibly fill.  So trying harder, doing more and the thousand other if only I hads... .don't matter because even if you had something else would have come up that you didn't or couldn't.  Until they change the void will be there.

[gettingoverit]

That's the problem, it is NEVER good enough for them. My ex could have the world given to her on a silver platter, she still wouldn't be satisfied. Oh it will soothe for a while because she believes that she is happy, but the truth is that after a while her demons creep back and she is back to feeling unhappy and dissatisfied. Then she starts the push/pull, I love you/hate you crap we all have become accustomed too. Chances are we were most likely their best chance at happiness, but they p*ssed it away because of their illness. Nothing will ever be good enough for them. The cycle of searching for perfection continues endlessly. Unfortunately many innocent people who just wanted to love them get burned. It's so sad and infuriating!

[diotima]

I agree. BPDs sabotage what could be very good r/s's if they could own up to their bottomless pit as their responsibility. It has nothing to do with us not being good enough. In many ways perhaps we are too good for them. It is so paradoxical that the very thing that would give them the love they claim to want is exactly the thing they cannot do. We can't hang on to any ideas and feelings that we are not good enough, but the ending of any r/s is bound to bring that stuff up, especially when the person has been so invalidating.

Diotima

[2010]

Women are disposable objects to the male Narcissist because they serve as tools for maintaining a Narcissists emotional unavailability. The emotional unavailability is a protection for the lonely child that lives within.

In everything the Narcissist does, even the closest intimate relationships, admiration becomes a substitute for genuine love. The lonely child that's hidden within is a child of neglect, probably from a household of other narcissists where competition for attention was fierce and the child was cut off. The lonely child could not compete against the primary objects but gained admiration for them instead and internalized the feelings that arose from it.  These feelings take the place of genuine love.

When Narcissists feel bored, empty, alone and depressed, they switch into a detached self-soother mode (different from Borderlines who cannot self sooth and go into detached self *protector* mode.)

The detached self-soother modes of the Narcissist look outwardly to find other people to boost them up, give them attention and provide stimulation and excitement-anything to avoid the feelings of loneliness, emptiness and worthlessness. The result is a personality construct of great movement toward and escape away from objectified people who basically (in the mind of the Narcissist) "work" for the Narcissist. <<Remember, emotional unavailability is the working hypothesis.>>

Narcissists can take in approval, they can take in admiration, they can take in attention, but they cannot take in love. Love is so scary to them that it makes them feel unprotected (again, the lonely childhood schema surfaces)- therefore they must create a self soothing shield (they've been alone since childhood so this is nothing new.) They now return to the search outside of themselves for stimulation. Hence the facebook, social media, etc. They use people like objects and have a tendency to attract people who objectify themselves as a valuation to the Narcissist which involves mirroring the emotional unavailability.

Those people mirror and act out the emotional unavailability of the Narcissist as they stuff their feelings down about the Narcissists methods, which the Narcissist uses to exaggerate his own importance, power, or reputation by objectifying and using others.  Narcissists are committee-holics- which means they bring together many people to serve them and then pull the puppet strings while serving as the Master of ceremonies in the spotlight... .and taking all the credit from the people on the sidelines.

It's the drama of these actions that keeps people watching Narcissists, and thinking, was it me? when it's clear that even the Narcissist realizes he has a moving goalpost. Realizing this should remove your doubt about yourself as he goes on to his next clean catch.  Because it's a Narcissistic need to avoid intimacy- these are group orders- not individual orders, yes, call it a harem if you must.  Yes, harems get recycled.

The intense and attractive mystery of a Narcissist's valuation/devaluation methods need investigation if you find yourself in it's aftermath and are dangerously close to being pulled in again and recycled.  

Once you're in that confusing, was it me? undertow, it may take a few failed attempts to get your information freely- as the Narcissist doesn't want to admit he's into quantity but given time you'll recognize the pull of the current and the *quantity of people in the current* and get out. Underneath that current was a <quality>- an inescapable feeling that comes from childhood origins. Hope and uncertainty- and how you feel about yourself when people are emotionally unavailable. You'll discover more when you investigate the pull to those emotionally unavailable people who have shields around them.  Make a list of those people if you can and see if they have any behaviors in common.

The Narcissist is only a modern day stand-in for a primary object from your childhood who left you these questions. Your job isn't to return to the Narcissist- your job is to figure out a way free, make some sense of your own behavior and give yourself a pat on the back for trying.  

[PinkieD]

WOW 2010,

That was a powerful post.  I am just now seeing the Narcissistic qualities of exBPD.  He is so "classic BPD" in my mind, with cutting and alcoholism, that I never gave NPD another thought.  Though he is handsome, his lifestyle is taking somewhat of a toll on his looks and I have always assumed NPD are of the most elite beauty.  I have noticed he cannot STAND to not do a 100% perfect job at his blue collar job.  Even gets to work AN HOUR early daily. 

All of the women baffle me, as he is always on and on about just wanting a relationship and finding that ONE WOMAN who will love him for him for the rest of his life.  He was previously married once for 6 years and again for 10 years.  He swears he was faithful in these marriages, although they both "cheated and found other men to leave him for".  I don't know the truth.  It just seems to me this running around gathering up female attention is a bit much.  Probably a bit much for Rudolph Valentino.

[whitedoe]

Women are disposable objects to the male Narcissist because they serve as tools for maintaining a Narcissists emotional unavailability. The emotional unavailability is a protection for the lonely child that lives within.

In everything the Narcissist does, even the closest intimate relationships, admiration becomes a substitute for genuine love. The lonely child that's hidden within is a child of neglect, probably from a household of other narcissists where competition for attention was fierce and the child was cut off. The lonely child could not compete against the primary objects but gained admiration for them instead and internalized the feelings that arose from it.  These feelings take the place of genuine love.

When Narcissists feel bored, empty, alone and depressed, they switch into a detached self-soother mode (different from Borderlines who cannot self sooth and go into detached self *protector* mode.)

The detached self-soother modes of the Narcissist look outwardly to find other people to boost them up, give them attention and provide stimulation and excitement-anything to avoid the feelings of loneliness, emptiness and worthlessness. The result is a personality construct of great movement toward and escape away from objectified people who basically (in the mind of the Narcissist) "work" for the Narcissist. <<Remember, emotional unavailability is the working hypothesis.>>

Narcissists can take in approval, they can take in admiration, they can take in attention, but they cannot take in love. Love is so scary to them that it makes them feel unprotected (again, the lonely childhood schema surfaces)- therefore they must create a self soothing shield (they've been alone since childhood so this is nothing new.) They now return to the search outside of themselves for stimulation. Hence the facebook, social media, etc. They use people like objects and have a tendency to attract people who objectify themselves as a valuation to the Narcissist which involves mirroring the emotional unavailability.

Those people mirror and act out the emotional unavailability of the Narcissist as they stuff their feelings down about the Narcissists methods, which the Narcissist uses to exaggerate his own importance, power, or reputation by objectifying and using others.  Narcissists are committee-holics- which means they bring together many people to serve them and then pull the puppet strings while serving as the Master of ceremonies in the spotlight... .and taking all the credit from the people on the sidelines.

It's the drama of these actions that keeps people watching Narcissists, and thinking, was it me? when it's clear that even the Narcissist realizes he has a moving goalpost. Realizing this should remove your doubt about yourself as he goes on to his next clean catch.  Because it's a Narcissistic need to avoid intimacy- these are group orders- not individual orders, yes, call it a harem if you must.  Yes, harems get recycled.

The intense and attractive mystery of a Narcissist's valuation/devaluation methods need investigation if you find yourself in it's aftermath and are dangerously close to being pulled in again and recycled.  

Once you're in that confusing, was it me? undertow, it may take a few failed attempts to get your information freely- as the Narcissist doesn't want to admit he's into quantity but given time you'll recognize the pull of the current and the *quantity of people in the current* and get out. Underneath that current was a <quality>- an inescapable feeling that comes from childhood origins. Hope and uncertainty- and how you feel about yourself when people are emotionally unavailable. You'll discover more when you investigate the pull to those emotionally unavailable people who have shields around them.  Make a list of those people if you can and see if they have any behaviors in common.

The Narcissist is only a modern day stand-in for a primary object from your childhood who left you these questions. Your job isn't to return to the Narcissist- your job is to figure out a way free, make some sense of your own behavior and give yourself a pat on the back for trying.  

I am told that my ex suffers from both BPD and NPD... .He dumped me and replaced me within about 2 months. He now tells me that he is "in love" and does want to hear from me, only "once in a while"... .? Not that I have been in touch with him... .Only 3 times since 14Feb 2011... .I spoke with him briefly last evening (for the 2nd time only since 14Feb) and he was "cold" and "angry sounding" with me. Tells me that "we talked about everything" over Valentine's weekend... .and he has nothing more to say.  Not true, we discussed nothing at all... .

I feel so low, so devalued, so "ugly" and "not good enough"... .He tells me that he continues to go to his therapy, and is working on his assignments? He has been in therapy for over 7 years? He never told me that he was PD... .I mentioned it to him last night and he did not confirm or deny this... .He seems to be working so hard with my replacement. I am so brokenhearted, so lost, so hurt to my core. I have been completely cut out of his life and for what reason, I honestly have no idea?

Thank you for listening... .I wonder how does the combination of BPD/NPD work? What makes him so uncaring... .no feelings at all... .

WhiteDoe

[PinkieD]

White Doe,

I wish I could hug you.  I understand everything you're feeling.  It's as if the person we knew has disappeared and a cruel cold robot who looks like them has appeared in their place.  Just heartless!

I am shocked he admitted PD to you after all this time.  He must have been hiding this before.  I think they try to appear flawless (NPD). 

I think you will see the same thing happen to his new "love" as happened to you.  I know how long of a wait it seems.  (This is part of the reason I keep checking facebook, I guess.)  The behaviors continue.  On and on.  I have realized that my exBPDbf has been this way since he was 13.  I remember him playing me a cassette tape (remember those? ) his first love made for him.  She is just chatting away about what they will do that Friday night, then she says, "Oh, I heard something about you flirting with Lisa and going to the mall with her?" Keep in mind this is the first love he dated all through high school and shot himself over when she broke up with him.

So, see.  He is now 43.  That's 30 years of unscrupulous behavior.  I don't have proof he cheated on his wives but I have a gut feeling.

Hang in there.  YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH!  In his world, nobody will ever be above his cheating on them or dumping them.  NOBODY.  Not this lady, not Angelina Jolie.

 

[PinkieD]

Chances are we were most likely their best chance at happiness, but they p*ssed it away because of their illness.

In a moment of lucidity while drinking and pontificating, ex told me that he cared for me more than anyone he ever has except exwife in the beginning of marriage.  He said he cares for me so much, wants me around all the time, then starts to "Feel scared" and "not like the being cornered feeling".  He then said that he has low self esteem and needs "validation" from lots of women to make him feel attractive.  It was nice to hear that he admitted this.  For a brief moment.

[Intent_to_learn]

2010, brilliant.   Thank you for all that you bring to this forum. 

[ithurts07]

Pinkdaisy,I know exacly how you feel.A couple of months ago the BPD guy that I was dating said how he loved me and coudn't wait to spend time with me-that was before he stopped seeing me and got back with his ex wife(the reunion lasted three days,then they decided to go ahead w the divorce,But she still lives in the house and they keep arguing followed by making up and hysterical bonding.Iam SURE that they are back together now).But whan I questioned him about everything,he said that every time he is with me,he feels "trapped" because he knows that I am not interested in seeing anyone else but he is.His response totally blew me away but when I looked at his history,there has been very little "down time" for him after ANY relationship.The funny thing is that I spend alot of time wondering who his "new flavor of the month is".And wondering what makes me so undersireable.He kept saying that h wants to find someone for him, but it hurts because I really did love him and showed him in every way possible.But it never mattered and he never appreciated it-at all!Yet he would claim that he enjoyed being able to soil a woman,but I never saw it.What hurt more than anything was that shortly after he stopped seeing me,he got with another woman.She took him home to meet her kids and everything-after only a few dates,But if I had done the same thing ,he would have said that I was coming on too strong.I could live to be a hunderd years old and never understand this mess.I struggle every day but I keep whispering to myself that "Iam ok".

[waterlily9]

I agree. BPDs sabotage what could be very good r/s's if they could own up to their bottomless pit as their responsibility. It has nothing to do with us not being good enough. In many ways perhaps we are too good for them. It is so paradoxical that the very thing that would give them the love they claim to want is exactly the thing they cannot do. We can't hang on to any ideas and feelings that we are not good enough, but the ending of any r/s is bound to bring that stuff up, especially when the person has been so invalidating.

Diotima

That's exactly what I told him days before I found this site!  I said "you want love so badly, want to trust so much, are soo afraid of me leaving you, that you push the very one you love away ... .aren't you tired of living in fear?"

I didn't get a response to that... .it's tragic

[ve01603]

2010, brilliant.   Thank you for all that you bring to this forum. 

I agree.

[ve01603]

I agree. BPDs sabotage what could be very good r/s's if they could own up to their bottomless pit as their responsibility. It has nothing to do with us not being good enough. In many ways perhaps we are too good for them. It is so paradoxical that the very thing that would give them the love they claim to want is exactly the thing they cannot do. We can't hang on to any ideas and feelings that we are not good enough, but the ending of any r/s is bound to bring that stuff up, especially when the person has been so invalidating.

Diotima

That's exactly what I told him days before I found this site!  I said "you want love so badly, want to trust so much, are soo afraid of me leaving you, that you push the very one you love away ... .aren't you tired of living in fear?"

I didn't get a response to that... .it's tragic

That is how I always felt.  That he tries to drive everyone away as some kind of a "test".

[PinkieD]

Pinkdaisy,I know exacly how you feel.A couple of months ago the BPD guy that I was dating said how he loved me and coudn't wait to spend time with me-that was before he stopped seeing me and got back with his ex wife(the reunion lasted three days,then they decided to go ahead w the divorce,But she still lives in the house and they keep arguing followed by making up and hysterical bonding.Iam SURE that they are back together now).But whan I questioned him about everything,he said that every time he is with me,he feels "trapped" because he knows that I am not interested in seeing anyone else but he is.His response totally blew me away but when I looked at his history,there has been very little "down time" for him after ANY relationship.The funny thing is that I spend alot of time wondering who his "new flavor of the month is".And wondering what makes me so undersireable.He kept saying that h wants to find someone for him, but it hurts because I really did love him and showed him in every way possible.But it never mattered and he never appreciated it-at all!Yet he would claim that he enjoyed being able to soil a woman,but I never saw it.What hurt more than anything was that shortly after he stopped seeing me,he got with another woman.She took him home to meet her kids and everything-after only a few dates,But if I had done the same thing ,he would have said that I was coming on too strong.I could live to be a hunderd years old and never understand this mess.I struggle every day but I keep whispering to myself that "Iam ok".

ithurts, I experienced everything you did, with him jumping right into dating like CRAZY, possibly even dating while we were still together.  It hurts.  It makes me feel ugly, like I couldn't live up to this dream woman he is on the search for for his entire life.  But like I said, notice, he doesn't only do those things WITH YOU, just like I am seeing mine didn't do those only with me.  It is helping me somewhat to realize that he is treating others the same.  And can there really be something wrong with EVERY SINGLE ONE?

[PinkieD]

That is how I always felt.  That he tries to drive everyone away as some kind of a "test".

Same feeling here going by some of his words to me.

But when do the tests stop?  Do they EVER, with ANYONE?

[diotima]

Pink: I don't think the tests ever stop without T (or even then) because how could they trust anyone? Their brains have become wired for distrust. If we keep passing the test then they up the ante (and the stress on us). There is no way we can pass the test. That's sabotage--not being able to live in a gray area.

Diotima

[whitedoe]

2010, brilliant.   Thank you for all that you bring to this forum. 

I agree.

Yes, ve... .me too! 2010's posts have been my lifeline as I painfully learn about and "accept" this horrific BPD/NPD ordeal for what it truly was in my life... .A round of "fantasy" with a mentally ill man... .God, I feel so emotionally "gutted"... .I hope this will truly get better... .I'm working, feeling, "being"... .trying to get beyond the hurt... .

THANK YOU 2010! 

WhiteDoe

[PinkieD]

Thanks, Diotima,

It just baffles my mind and sometimes I think I am "understanding" this disorder then something else comes up that makes me go "huh?"

[whitedoe]

White Doe,

I wish I could hug you.  I understand everything you're feeling.  It's as if the person we knew has disappeared and a cruel cold robot who looks like them has appeared in their place.  Just heartless!

I am shocked he admitted PD to you after all this time.  He must have been hiding this before.  I think they try to appear flawless (NPD). 

I think you will see the same thing happen to his new "love" as happened to you.  I know how long of a wait it seems.  (This is part of the reason I keep checking facebook, I guess.)  The behaviors continue.  On and on.  I have realized that my exBPDbf has been this way since he was 13.  I remember him playing me a cassette tape (remember those? ) his first love made for him.  She is just chatting away about what they will do that Friday night, then she says, "Oh, I heard something about you flirting with Lisa and going to the mall with her?" Keep in mind this is the first love he dated all through high school and shot himself over when she broke up with him.

So, see.  He is now 43.  That's 30 years of unscrupulous behavior.  I don't have proof he cheated on his wives but I have a gut feeling.

Hang in there.  YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH!  In his world, nobody will ever be above his cheating on them or dumping them.  NOBODY.  Not this lady, not Angelina Jolie.

 

I cannot thank you enough for your kindness, pinkdaisy7... .I'm having such a rough day... .Undoubtedly because I spoke with him last night... .It is true, every break of NC (and I have had very little interaction with him since being "dumped and replaced"... .) sets me into despair all over again... .Your compassion means soo much to me... .

WhiteDoe

[topknot]

pinkdaisy7 - It's not you - don't be hard on yourself.  All my exBPD talked about was his previous girlfriend, how she gave him "freedom" when she introduced him to motorcycle riding, how much he was enthralled with her, blah, blah   .  She was also crude, not as educated as I am, indecisive, unreliable, I can go on.  I tried to show him how different I was - home cooked meals, care for him when he was sick, straightened the house, did the dishes for him, made his life easier and happier on a daily basis.  What was I accused of?  I was trying to trap him, corner him, and had "expectations".  That was it, adios for me and back to Miss Harley Davidson, the one on the pedestal.  And now what?  These are his recent words to me - "It's just exchanging one set of problems I had with you for another.  It's no picnic with her."  Well, imagine that - I thought she was perfect?  So to make you feel better, even the ones they consider perfect are devalued and will be discarded too -it's not you 

[oceanblue]

Pinkdaisy - I think we all agree that BPDs and NPDs use their partner for their own needs.  Because of their mental illness, they constantly test their partner, raising the bar, until someone leaves the relationship.  One of the diagnostic criteria for BPDs is unstable relationships.

As nons, we tend to focus on - were we good enough?  Could we have done more?  How do we earn their love and affection and affirmation?  How can we fix their abandonment fears by going to ever greater efforts to prove our love?  And the BPDs grasp on to that and hand out crumbs of affection to keep us trying to jump through all of their hoops while rejecting gestures that others would be comforted by.

Now turn the question around.  What did you get out of jumping through all those hoops?  What did your SO do for you?   Were your needs met?  Where did you set your bar/boundaries for him?  Did he respect that?

I used to worry/obsess that I wasn't doing enough to please my BPD and he told me frequently that I was not so it just fed the fire.  In all of the time we were together - he never once participated in a civil discussion of my needs.  Every discussion and fight we had was about his needs and my failure (in his eyes) to meet them.  That is the FOG.


What were you getting out of a relationship with a BPD?  Was he failing to meet your needs?  Did you express this?  How did he respond?

[Beach_Babe]

No matter what you do, no matter what you say NOTHING will ever be "enough" to a person with BPD. Period. Its not about us at all, its about them... .trying to fill that bottomless pit of need.

What do we get out of the relationship? Heartache, frustration and pain... .oh yeah, and an empty bank account.

[ve01603]

That is how I always felt.  That he tries to drive everyone away as some kind of a "test".

Same feeling here going by some of his words to me.

But when do the tests stop?  Do they EVER, with ANYONE?

I wish I knew.

[ve01603]

2010, brilliant.   Thank you for all that you bring to this forum. 

I agree.

Yes, ve... .me too! 2010's posts have been my lifeline as I painfully learn about and "accept" this horrific BPD/NPD ordeal for what it truly was in my life... .A round of "fantasy" with a mentally ill man... .God, I feel so emotionally "gutted"... .I hope this will truly get better... .I'm working, feeling, "being"... .trying to get beyond the hurt... .

THANK YOU 2010! 

WhiteDoe

Hang in there White Doe.  It does get better.  I am actually 90 - 95% of the way there.  I even managed to pass that test that I had to do for additional certification for work.

[ve01603]

No matter what you do, no matter what you say NOTHING will ever be "enough" to a person with BPD. Period. Its not about us at all, its about them... .trying to fill that bottomless pit of need.

What do we get out of the relationship? Heartache, frustration and pain... .oh yeah, and an empty bank account.

Yeah.  It was like I was constantly trying to impress him and all I managed to do was impress myself.  Found out I'm pretty awesome.

[ve01603]

Pink: I don't think the tests ever stop without T (or even then) because how could they trust anyone? Their brains have become wired for distrust. If we keep passing the test then they up the ante (and the stress on us). There is no way we can pass the test. That's sabotage--not being able to live in a gray area.

Diotima

Yeah.  At the end, even his billing person and I were conspiring against him in his mind.  Yeah.  We were helping him collect his money for him. ?

[diotima]

Ve: that would be hilarious if... .well, you know what I mean. Exhausting!  

Diotima

[Marcie]

All very true. Good.info

[clairedair]

Its not about us at all, its about them... .trying to fill that bottomless pit of need.

I would say that my 'falling short' of ex's expectations was more about him than me, however, I'd also say that part of it was about me.  What was it about me that at some level believed his words/actions?

For me, this was the key issue I needed to deal with. I had to work on why I understood that I was good enough but didn't always feel good enough when experience pointed to my ex not finding any relationship fulfilling enough.

It's a cliche to look back to childhood but I think it's worth taking time to consider whether or not we had these feelings before the relationship.  I was fortunate to have a loving, happy childhood and thought I had a fairly healthy self-esteem so it took me a while to realise that despite that, there were times back then when I felt 'not good enough'.  I also realised that some positive aspects of life can have negative effects.  Two examples (1) I'm part of a large extended family which has many benefits and I wouldn't swap that for the alternative, however, it was sometimes hard to get the attention I needed or feel special (2) being brought up in the faith I was brought up in also had benefits but I felt a lot of guilt about not being saintly!  So even in the absence of a dysfunctional, neglectful family, people end up with childhood wounds.  The breakdown of the long-term relationship with ex re-opened my wounds - extremely painful.

It's an ongoing struggle to depersonalise his words and actions.  Logically, there's years of evidence that nothing I could have done would have made any difference but there is something in me that at times still reacts strongly to any trigger suggesting that I somehow failed.

Can you recognise feeling 'not good enough' before the relationship with BPD?

take care,

Claire