Rethinking Contact?

[rotgut]

After reading this compelling article: "Into the Mind of the Borderline

Written by Kathi Stringer

Helpful note from a resistive patient with borderline personality disorder:



Help me when I deserve it the least. Help me in the face of my rage. It is easy to help me when I am the well behaved, the good-natured patient, but anyone without skill can treat me well when I am this way. I need your skills, your help when I am at my worst so that I can understand and identify something better than myself. You may have to show me over and over again that I have value and that my rage will not destroy you, because I learn these things slowly and my old ways are everywhere I look, they are in my thoughts and feelings. These thoughts and feelings feel like they will destroy me so I put them in you, because I hope you are stronger then I am. So please don’t be angry with me for putting these terrible feelings into you, and I hope that maybe you can do something with them because I don’t know how or I need you to show me how with your actions so that I can identify with you. I try to understand your words but sometimes your words can’t reach me because my emotions are asleep when you are talking but when my emotions are awake and disturb me, they are working in partnership with you, even if just a little. So thank you for accepting and holding these terrible parts of myself and then letting me take them back after you have made them softer, easier to tolerate. Thank you for helping me when I least deserve it.

The above is straight from the mind of an individual with borderline personality disorder. It incorporates object relations theory of the "container and the contained" and the "three levers of projective identification" to provide insight to help modify the closed internal objects of the client... .i.e... .take someone thing bad and exchange it for something better provided by the treater.

I am now rethinking breaking NC, and would truly appreciate some honest advise. My uBPD w and I have lived apart for eighteen months now. We recycled twice during that time and in she fit moved back to her home country, six thousand miles away, and took our three dogs with her ?. Including the one that was living with me. The dog I rescued sniffing in a garbage bin. She could have left him.

I want to divorce her, but would rather avoid jacking up her citizenship if I don't have to.  I haven't filed yet, and really don't know why I haven't.

I spoke with her roughly six weeks ago when she called me in crisis,  wanted me to rescue her back to this country, to live with me. She loved me, missed me, guilt trip, etc. It was really hard, but I held strong and didn't cave, for the first time .

I need to file for divorce. Do I contact her and tell her I am going to file? Or should I just file and tell her afterward, or just file and not tell her at all? I think her immigrant status is good for a few years with or w/o me at this point, so I really should file, but not sure if or when to contact her.

I have not been dating, but would like to start b/c this lonely martyr thing is getting tired. But I wouldn't feel comfortable dating until I at least file for divorce.  ? First marriage and first divorce.

Should I contact her at all?  And if I do should I tell her I think she has BP? I know for certain I am not willing to live with her for another minute, but she is very intelligent and would be very likely to look into BPD, if I told her. Mind you, during our ten year marriage, we went through numerous doctors, therapists (after seperation), and we never could make the rages stop, and her behavior/rages just continued to get worse and nightmarishly worse.

Part of me thinks that after ten years of marriage and going our separate ways, I somehow owe it to her to tell her I think BPD is the root of her emotional turmoil.

Any of your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[rotgut]

I am also thinking of contacting her former T and ask her whether or not she diagnosed her with BP.  Her T prescribed CBT. If she told my w then I may not contact her at all. Very confused here.

[jhan6120]

I'm personally very turned off by BP confessionals like this.

Here's my response to this one:

"I didn't break you, I can't fix you, and I'm a good person who deserves a happy life. Pick up your crying towel and go find a babysitter elsewhere."

But that's just me.

[Lucykoss]

Its so disturbing to read your post, as I have posted almost the exact same thing.  I keep thinking and telling my coaches (my therapist, my sister, my friend) that I'm not sure how to leave him in a way that is best for him.  My therapist had the best response - "Who gives a sht? That's not your problem.  How do you presume to be so enlightened, so all-knowing to think that you can know what is best for him?"  She said that is part of your emotional problem that you think you know what is best.  You don't.  And you are doing more harm by acting like a victim.  She told me to be strong, watch out for myself, and let him worry about him. 

For all you know, you are hurting her more by not cutting ties.  You are using her as an excuse to not face your fears.  I know because I am doing the exact same thing.  Of course, I'm also doing the same thing as you, and being totally presumptive about what is best for him.  I see it, I know I'm doing it, but I can't stop myself.  It is easier to give advice, easier to see it in others, than to take action and face my fears in my own life.   

Think of it this way - there is your well-being and there is her well-being.  If you sacrifice yourself thinking it will help her, and it doesn't, then you have two bad outcomes.  If you sacrifice thinking it will help her, and it does, then there is one good outcome - hers.  If you focus on you, then either you have two good outcomes (both are happier) or you still have one good outcome - yours.   

Reread your words from a detached mindset and see how you are so worried about her and how she will take it, what is optimal.  Let go of that, tell yourself it isn't your problem.  I decided that I probably will have to leave him in writing because I can't do it in person.  Although I hate that, I realize I don't think I have the strength to leave him if I have to face him.  I need to get past this last hurdle.

Good luck. 

[Suzn]

IMHO wish her well in your heart and then do what you need to do for you, ie divorce w NC if possible, so you can move forward in your life. I have said numerous times to myself, even before the breakup, I am not personally qualified to deal with this disorder. 

[turtle]

I suggest that you inform her that you are filing.  You two have been apart for quite awhile, so that should really come as no great surprise to her (but she'll still take it badly whether you tell her or not.)  I suggest this because it seems that it would be the appropriate thing to do.    And... .you can inform her in a very short, to the point manner.  There's no need rehash all the reasons why.  Just a short email:

Dear so and so.  I'm filing for divorce.  Sincerely, Rotgut.


Beyond that... .my suggestion is to be done.  No informing her of anything other than your intention to file. No calling therapists.  No checking on her immigration status.

I'm curious why you found this excerpt from Kathi Stringer so compelling.  And... .I'm curious why it makes YOU feel responsible for her.  

turtle

[RCA212]

My therapist had the best response - "Who gives a sht? That's not your problem.  How do you presume to be so enlightened, so all-knowing to think that you can know what is best for him?"  She said that is part of your emotional problem that you think you know what is best.  You don't.  And you are doing more harm by acting like a victim.  She told me to be strong, watch out for myself, and let him worry about him. 

Very good advice! 

[PMB1311]

Ironically my exBPDgf had a framed quote hanging in her kitchen "Love me when I least deserve it because that's when I need it the most".  That is eerily similar to the opening of that passage Rotgut shared.  It gave me chills.  I can remember using that quote when she was dysregulating. I would reassure her that I was there by saying it to her.  It didn't help.

The other part of what was shared is that the author has BPD and it sounded like she was playing the victim (that's how I read it). It was like she was justifying why she did what she did without being responsible for her actions and behaviors. This display of "oh woe is me" is exactly what sucks us in.  We empathize, feel bad, and because we care, we want to help them.  We do this once, and it's not so bad. We do it again and again, enabling their dysfunction more and more.  We get upset because deep down we know this is not ok.  We then fight back, shaming them for being the way they are.  This is yet another form of enabling.  You can't beat a BPD down any more than they do one their own.  It's a no-win situation for anyone involved.

When I ended my r/s I offered to remain friends since I cared so much for her. I offered to support her through therapy (she dropped out and refused to go back).  That lead to triangulation (read definition) with my friends and my children, and even more dysfunction from her.  Keeping the door open just made it worse for her and for me too.  Her fear of abandonment had come true and I was watching the one I love fall apart right in front of my eyes.  This was very traumatic for the both of us, but for very different reasons.

It seems like you are afraid to be the "bad guy" in your situation.  When you are used to being the martyr/rescuer/co-dependent savior for her, it makes doing what's right for you very very difficult.  It feels like you are going against the grain of who you are and everything you know.

Focus on the facts: You want a divorce.  You can start off being as amicable as possible and you can always change to NC if things go badly.  I believe that regardless of whether you tell her you are filing ahead of time or just have her served the result is going to be the same - seems like she is going to freak totally and it's just a matter of when.

Sit back and think about what you want, where you want to be in your life then create a plan and execute it.  It doesn't mean you have to stop loving her, it just means that your love for her has to change so it is supportive for you and for her - if that is through NC, then that is how it has to be.

I wish you well on your journey... .

[jhan6120]

My therapist had the best response - "Who gives a sht? That's not your problem.  How do you presume to be so enlightened, so all-knowing to think that you can know what is best for him?"  She said that is part of your emotional problem that you think you know what is best.  You don't.  And you are doing more harm by acting like a victim.  She told me to be strong, watch out for myself, and let him worry about him. 

Very good advice! 

Best post EVER.

[Suzn]

Notifying her is the 'right' thing to do? For who? Morally? Or what? Im just curious really. I mean its over. No kids right? Shes in a whole different country rite? I guess I just dont see the point... why poke a rattlesnake? I know, for sure, I dont know everything but I dont get why contact would matter now.

[rotgut]

Wow. Thank you for all the responses/validation. It is incredible not to be so alone with this anymore. I'm sure you can all see that I can talk my self into anything stupid, if left to my own devices. TG for you guys.

Turtle, I guess the article in a way, made me feel like a heel. My poor afflicted upbd w is in another part of the world, in my CD mind, thinking she is going from guru to guru, trying to find out the "energy" imbalance that is causing all of her emotional turmoil, i.e. ruining her life.  And here I am safe & sound, being now full aware of the nature of her affliction. In my CD mind I am thinking this will be the last contact and m/b her knowing she has BPD would lead her into the proper treatment, instead of just chasing her own tail.  The reality: She will not take my armchair diagnosis seriously, will pretend to,  and will try to draw me back into her web. Recycle #?.

After reading your comments, I think this is m/b more about me and my own CD to her. At some point in our r/s I went from thinking of her as an independent and strong women, to a screwed up child who was solely dependent on me. I guess it is hard to let go of these feelings completely. Much harder than I thought. To truly be done and in such a bad, final way. For her anyway. I'm feeling better all the time.

Luckykoss, I left mine in writing. Made me feel like a complete chicken sht heel at the time, but it was the only way to leave w/o serious violent incident, that would have likely gotten the neighbors and police involved. Totally understand the leaving in writing. It is the smart way to go there. I just watched Sunset Blvd last night. Great film. If I would have tried to leave mine in person the my final outcome would have been most likely like the protagonist's in the film. Shot in the back three times or stabbed anyway. I had removed all firearms from the house by that point.

I know that pwBPD sink in their hooks really deep into our souls, but this is ridiculous. I don't want to give a sht. I really, truly don't. But want to be able to respect and live with myself and not give a sht at the same time. Haven't gotten there yet, but hopefully will soon. Thank you all so much for the kind and encouraging words.

[RCA212]

Luckykoss, I left mine in writing. Made me feel like a complete chicken sht heel at the time, but it was the only way to leave w/o serious violent incident, that would have likely gotten the neighbors and police involved. Totally understand the leaving in writing. It is the smart way to go there.

rotgut,

This is the same thing I did, and the same way I felt/feel.  Thank you for validating that I did the right thing... .I needed that.

[turtle]

Turtle, I guess the article in a way, made me feel like a heel. My poor afflicted upbd w is in another part of the world, in my CD mind, thinking she is going from guru to guru, trying to find out the "energy" imbalance that is causing all of her emotional turmoil, i.e. ruining her life.  And here I am safe & sound, being now full aware of the nature of her affliction. In my CD mind I am thinking this will be the last contact and m/b her knowing she has BPD would lead her into the proper treatment, instead of just chasing her own tail.  The reality: She will not take my armchair diagnosis seriously, will pretend to,  and will try to draw me back into her web. Recycle #?.

I know that pwBPD sink in their hooks really deep into our souls, but this is ridiculous. I don't want to give a sht. I really, truly don't. But want to be able to respect and live with myself and not give a sht at the same time. Haven't gotten there yet, but hopefully will soon. Thank you all so much for the kind and encouraging words.

The day will come, rotgut, where you really don't give a sht -- AND -- you will definitely respect yourself at the same time!

When I read the excerpt from Kathy Stringer, I didn't find it compelling at all. There was a time when I would have found it compelling, but not now.  Now?  Now, I don't read stuff like that anymore.  Just reading that short excerpt wore me out. Just the way it is written reminds me of the chaos that I no longer have to deal with.  I'm so grateful... .and one day soon... .you will feel the same.  

Once you file for divorce and the finality of this nightmare approaches, you won't CARE what goes on in the mind of a borderline.

There's nothing you can/should do for her anymore. By your own description, she is very intelligent.  If she wants to figure out what's wrong, she will.  That has NOTHING to do with you any longer.

You're on your way to freedom rotgut!

turtle

[truly amazed]

Hi Rotgut,

I reached a conclusion after going thru the healing process and exmaining why I stayed in an abusive relationship.

I am not a knight in shining armour or anything like that but personality type for me is a protector.

I thought I was making her better by enduring and not respoinding to abuse on her part ... .or manipulation ... .or any of the other games played.

Reality  and my role made things WORSE. Not enforcing boundries and forgiving bad behavoiur allowed with my own blessing for the abuse to continue !

It is never another partners role to change or fix another. NEVER.

With someone as I had and you have with BPD or UBPD ... .my T without meeting her would not say 100% she had it but after weeks of her breahing NC and me taping some of the conversations or rage sessions ... .he folded.

Anyhow if they have BPD ... .don't admit to BPD or see any problem other than yours ... .delusional when they blame you for making them hit you ... .chances of treatment of them seeking it are zero.

Even with treatment for someone with 7/8/9 out of 9 of the traits would involve institutionalization likely for a few months and a T for many years and drugs for the rest of their lives. Even then ... .chances of them completing it are slim.

We all deserve to be treated with kindness, love, patience , respect ... .and I gave that but reality was I got nothing of the sort back in return.

Breaches of NC on her part not mine over the last 8 months total 15 with the latest one and another 10 attempts. Every time I responded especially just after the breakup it was so painful it nearly set me back to square one.

For me NC is the only way to go. Divorce ... .let the lawyers do it.


Sorry harsh but growing up and enforcing boundries is what being an adult is actually about. Accept our roles in the RS ... .and we played them for various reasons ... .love ... .co dependancy ... .need to save him/her and so on. This said ... .what do you want out of a loving relationship ? A partner ?


I sadly concluded my ex BPD partner would never ever meet the criteria . If I ever got sick or needed support ... .as I did once or twice during the RS ... .I never got it. God help me if I was to grow old with this person and I got sick as sometimes people do her last time dealing with a partner in need resulted with her sleeping with her husbands best friend.


BPD is an illness and yes I am glad to be away from it and not supporting her any more as it was a black hole for my soul. A bucket without a base ... a black hole ... .you put 80% of your effort in and its not enough ... .100% ... .120% ... .and you are suffering badly at this level and still it was never ever enough .


Take care NC ... .sorry and let the lawyers sort it out.


Good luck 

[Kathi Stringer]

I'm personally very turned off by BP confessionals like this.

Here's my response to this one:

"I didn't break you, I can't fix you, and I'm a good person who deserves a happy life. Pick up your crying towel and go find a babysitter elsewhere."

But that's just me.

Crying towel?  This was personal insight written for treaters working with BPD Clients. IT is a profession they get paid for. I don't understand why it would be personalized outside a treatment setting.

Here is one letter from a treater.

Hello Kathi,

I found your response extremely useful. As I said in my original letter, I'd found a great deal of information regarding diagnosis and the characteristics of BPD but very little regarding treatment. Following your response, I was able to put a pack together to distribute to my team and then use this as a base line when we came to care-planning our client. This helped in a number of ways.

Possibly the most significant impact or your work was that it helped my team to understand that it was our client's condition that was making her so difficult to be with at times - and not her.

As professional as my team are, they were finding themselves drawn into petty and destructive arguments, responding negatively to personal insults and generally finding our client difficult to like. This was despite the fact that she was clearly reaching out to them for help and desperately confused by her mixed emotions.

After I introduced your work to them and the BPD pack that I'd put together, the heavy atmosphere in the unit just seemed to lift. The team were able to objectify the condition and this stopped them taking my client's behavior and attitude towards them personally.

The work that had been exhausting and mentally draining before became understandable and stimulating now because we had something with a name, recognizable criteria and also strategies for dealing with it.

The impact for our client was immediate. Because the team felt more confident they responded more positively towards her. Because my client felt less rejected and more accepted, her confidence grew and she was able to develop more positive relationships with each of her team.

This young woman is sixteen next week and we're throwing a surprise party for her. Many of the staff that have worked with her across the years will be there and this is because they have a genuine affection for her.

Prior to her diagnosis we were looking at long term care in a therapeutic setting for this client. Now, because of the work we've been able to do with her, we're moving her towards independence.

Finally, I have been able to pass on the pack I put together, including your response, to other team leaders who have begun working with BPD young people. So, your work has impacted across our organization and on the lives of a number of young people.

Thanks once again for all that you do.

Jen Slade

________________________


Kathi Stringer

Toddlertime.com

[2010]

Kathi,  Hi!

Just wanted to thank you for your writing- which has helped me tremendously. I can still remember the day I came across a post of yours that was reprinted on BPD today, entitled "The Non Dilemma" which was quite an a-ha! moment for me.  It opened my eyes to trauma bonding and group effects and made me question why I had never seemed to get anywhere in my healing as a deeply wronged, justly resentful, quite irreproachable and insufferable person. I was very certain that I was perfect and blameless in every respect, that is, ... .until I wasn't.

Your writing made me consider how I looked at and reacted to BPD.  It also gave me the freedom to step outside of my anger and consider that Borderline personality was not done to me on purpose.  I had to let go of the thinking that these behaviors were directed personally at me when it was obvious that they were done to everyone.  I began to understand that my anger was really the only thing I could control. It was also a drug I used to block every other emotion from surfacing, from joy to sadness - where I could address them.  I used anger as an analgesic as well as a trauma arousal to keep me blocked and recycling.

Your words kept with me- and I now understand them as right and correct. It took awhile, but they sunk in.  Only I have the power to let go of the anger- to change and to heal myself- without blame and without rancor, but first, to let go.

I do owe you a great thanks for that article.   

For anyone else interested in reading The Non Dilemma: you can find it here: www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/stringer.htm

[FireFighter]

After reading this compelling article: "Into the Mind of the Borderline

Written by Kathi Stringer

Helpful note from a resistive patient with borderline personality disorder:



Help me when I deserve it the least. Help me in the face of my rage. It is easy to help me when I am the well behaved, the good-natured patient, but anyone without skill can treat me well when I am this way. I need your skills, your help when I am at my worst so that I can understand and identify something better than myself. You may have to show me over and over again that I have value and that my rage will not destroy you, because I learn these things slowly and my old ways are everywhere I look, they are in my thoughts and feelings. These thoughts and feelings feel like they will destroy me so I put them in you, because I hope you are stronger then I am. So please don’t be angry with me for putting these terrible feelings into you, and I hope that maybe you can do something with them because I don’t know how or I need you to show me how with your actions so that I can identify with you. I try to understand your words but sometimes your words can’t reach me because my emotions are asleep when you are talking but when my emotions are awake and disturb me, they are working in partnership with you, even if just a little. So thank you for accepting and holding these terrible parts of myself and then letting me take them back after you have made them softer, easier to tolerate. Thank you for helping me when I least deserve it.

A response from someone in love with a person with borderline personality disorder... .

Oh my Darling!... .It pains me to see you suffer so.  I will be stoic in the face of your rage and celebrate the return of you when you are well behaved.   I will show you the way, if you but follow my lead.  I am strong and can endure your pain.  Fill me up, there is lots of room.  I will soothe you and save you from your fears.  Trust in me, I am there for you.   I will show you a better way.  My love will heal your wounds.  Oh my Darling!... .It pains me to see you suffer so.

A response from someone worn down from a person with borderline personality disorder... .

It pains me that you make me suffer so.  I was stoic in the face of your rage and you punished me without care.  The night in jail wasn't really so bad.  The destruction of my things makes me quite sad.  Please... .please, when are you going to be well behaved?  I made a promise, I would be there for you.  Are you going to be there for me too?  I feel lost and don't know my way.  Do you love me?  I love you... .I think I do.  I don't know how much more I can endure.  It pains me that you make me suffer so.

A response from someone who is fleeing a relationship with a person with borderline personality disorder... .

Find some other sucker to take your abuse.  I did my time and I am now free.  I lost my job.  I lost my friends.  The STD you gave me was quite a surprise.  The criminal record from your false allegations not so much.  Once again you are playing the poor victim.  You destroyed my life!  I am so angry!... .with you and myself.  What was I thinking?  To believe I could rescue you, when I can't even save myself.  Find some other sucker to take your abuse.

I don't understand why it would be personalized outside a treatment setting.

Emotional thinking from the nons.  The words are being projected as to coming from the pwBPD that the non had a relationship with.  Emotional response from the non results based on their relationship experience.  Emotions muddle things up and it becomes personal as the wounds are still fresh.  Its not rational.  This forum allows an environment to hash that all out, eventually (hopefully) achieving a state of indifference.

[Neverknow]

My therapist had the best response - "Who gives a sht? That's not your problem.  How do you presume to be so enlightened, so all-knowing to think that you can know what is best for him?"  She said that is part of your emotional problem that you think you know what is best.  You don't.  And you are doing more harm by acting like a victim.  She told me to be strong, watch out for myself, and let him worry about him. 

Very good advice! 

I need to frame this.  My problem exactly.

[JustTired]

I can't tell you how many times I have been where you are. I still have hard days where I am tempted to contact my crazy ex. And I say my crazy ex because he seems to be somewhere in between Antisocial and Borderline personality disorder. He is finally getting psychiatric treatment, but that is neither here nor there I guess.

Bottom line is I now know I have to save myself and my daughter. I am sorry he is very ill and I'm sorry that he had such a tragic childhood where his parents abandoned him. However, I know that life is short and we cannot continue with him making life a living hell.

Sick people like my ex and your ex love nothing more than to keep the cycle going. They thrive off the constant chaos, it is part of their illness. When you make contact again you open up that door again for the vicious cycle to continue.

[Kathi Stringer]

Kathi,  Hi!

Just wanted to thank you for your writing- which has helped me tremendously.

Thank you 2010 for that. Your letter like many others make it all worthwhile.  Thank you!  Anger can be a powerful motivator if rechanneled correctly to bring change.  And it can also block and drown out  joy and happiness as you shared.    I’m honored to have shared in a part of you finding your way!

Kathi 

[diotima]

Well, I read the article by Kathi Stringer. Perhaps there is some truth to parts of it; other parts make me wonder if it was written by a BPD. OK, I am a "non" in her schema, although I never considered myself to to free of issues and I see the dialogue and support on these forums as a way to work through utterly horrible pain rather than "gang up" on a BPD. Sure, we say "bad" things about them. So what? I am well aware that I have childhood issues, but I am not going to put them in the all-too-convenient category of "co-dependent." That is too easy. Each biography is unique and the reasons that we became enamored our our ex's must reference those biographies. In my case, my ex has many of the wonderful qualities that my father had. My father was killed suddenly in a plane crash when I was nine. My ex also had most of the characteristics associated with BPD. Giving my ex up=giving up the man who had the qualities of my father. I can't just buy into the simplistic analysis that Stringer makes. I don't think we are ganging up on BPDs. I think we are trying as best we can to deal with awful pain and the particular articulation of that pain is rooted in our biographies. We can identify the places in us that need solace and attention at the same time we can recognize that there are a number of patterns that BPDs, due to their lack of emotional maturation have. Working through this process is about detaching and if we are ganging up in the process of becoming healthier, that's OK with me because we'll get beyond it--as many of the more senior members on this website exemplify.

Diotima

[Kathi Stringer]

Emotional thinking from the nons.  The words are being projected as to coming from the pwBPD that the non had a relationship with.  Emotional response from the non results based on their relationship experience.  Emotions muddle things up and it becomes personal as the wounds are still fresh.  Its not rational.  This forum allows an environment to hash that all out, eventually (hopefully) achieving a state of indifference.

I understand how important it is to have a place to heal, experience validation and read feedback. ,  it just took me back a bit to see my name pop up and words directed at me though the transference, when the work was meant for treaters.  I do understand that horrible trauma can do that to a person.