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Author Topic: 8.06 | From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle  (Read 97410 times)
Clearmind
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« on: December 03, 2011, 02:19:04 PM »

US: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

for members that have exited BPD relationships


Why is the idealization phase so intoxicating and the devaluation phase so painful for many of us?

The bond between the pwBPD and their partner is often complicated by lifelong emotional wounds each partner is unconsciously trying to soothe with the relationship.  When the relationship breaks, these underlying wounds often surface and make the breakup very traumatic.  

Recognizing how our own thoughts impact us as adults and taking steps to heal from our own lifelong wounds plays an important role in our recovery.

This workshop is an opportunity to explore why we feel that our break-up is so traumatic.  Let’s explore:

  • What brought us into the situation?


  • What vulnerabilities exist within us ?


  • How does our own childhood play a role?


  • Is this dynamic evident in our everyday life?


  • How can you begin to heal?


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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 01:28:39 PM »

I have read just about every article I can get my hands on, but I can't wrap my mind around the switch from idealize to devaluation.  In the initial stages, it seemed I could do no wrong.  I don't think my behavior changed any... .In fact I worked harder in this r/s than I have ever worked to be selfless and to give to him.  But he still tore me down and eventually dumped me out of the blue.  My question, I guess, is what causes that switch?  And is there any going back?  If anything I became more accommodating as the r/s wore on, but it didn't seem to help any.  I still got the verbal abuse (behind closed doors and over text) and silent treatment.  Every interaction was subject to a fight.  Totally different from how the r/s started.  What was heaven became absolute hell.
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 02:42:14 PM »

For me, it was a very specific event that started it. I had to handle a personal issue and it had nothing to do with my xBPDbf. Further, it was very stressful and I didn't want to talk about it so I didn't respond immediately to his phone calls, emails or texts.

This freaked him out and he started to get very dramatic in his communications, which made me contact him even less. I think he processed that emotionally as abandonment.

It took about a week for me to handle my personal business.

In that week, he lined up my replacement. When we saw each other that last time, we were visiting old friends of his to meet me. He was all pumped up on adderall and we were THREE HOURS late. I was mortified and let him know.

When we got home, he was raging at me because I gave him driving directions... .totally split me black that night and the next day pronounced his love for his new supply.

It is the luckiest thing that ever happened to me.

M
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 05:00:54 PM »

In terms of the disorder, closeness (intimacy) will trigger abandonment/engulfment fears. Splitting will follow as a means to cope; if you are devalued, then the attachment can be minimized and it feels better. The first cycle I saw was after our very first 3 months together. I went a trip I had planned before meeting him. It was just a week long trip with several women friends, and he stayed in contact by phone the whole week, but it triggered him. I noticed he was different when he came to pick me up at the airport. He said he had been feeling "contemplative". I learned over time the word "contemplative" meant he was splitting me black and withdrawing. What followed was loads of fun... .NOT!
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 08:01:34 PM »

This has helped me a lot, gonna keep re-reading as this definately applies to how my ex would behave/react.
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 11:40:34 PM »

Makes perfect sense as to how things took place in the r/s.  it was a slow boil but once it finally boiled over, it's like the kitchen immediately caught fire!  There was no going back.  From that point forward, it was almost impossible for me to be happy in the r/s.  Nothing... . And I mean NOTHING that I did was right.  I was always wrong.  But I never thought I would be dumped so suddenly.

There were certainly events along the way where the anger toward me seemed to get greater and greater, but nothing that would have had me believe I was about to abruptly replaced.  It was traumatic!  Felt like a death almost.  Like Ellison, mine did the same thing with my replacement.  Lined her up and immediately moved from me to her. I never saw it coming.  I've made a whole lot of progress from those early days, but it still hurts.
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 06:07:02 AM »

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to project and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure.  

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction.  

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Excerpt
Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos.  

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole.  

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.  Idea The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 11:37:20 AM »

Yup. The post by 2010 described the dynamics of my relationship for five years  to a T.  To a "T", including the feeling I had that we were somehow wounded in a similar way, that sympatico feeling, that soul mate feeling.  Also, the need to understand, as the 'lonely' child who has learned to cope by intellectually 'understanding' and trying to provide understanding, and hoping that someone will provide that understanding to me in return.   Yup.  To a "T". 
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 11:47:55 AM »

I need some clarity and have a question... .

Are you saying the "lonely child" is an NPD?

or is the "lonely child" a codependent? or neither, and something else?
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 12:06:48 PM »

I need some clarity and have a question... .

Are you saying the "lonely child" is an NPD? (like mentioned in previous post)

or is the "lonely child" a codependent? or neither, and something else?

Both.

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  Idea )

Whether we call ourselves codependents, or have narcissistic traits (which most of us likely do), or both, doesn't make a difference.

Even in case of real NPD's, it holds true for them as well.

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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 02:47:06 PM »

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

When I came to these lines, I read them and then read them again five more times.  Forgiving them is certainly one of the first steps to healing and moving on.  Thanks for emphasizing that.  "Forgive them if you can" . . . forgive her, I must.  For my sake.

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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 05:52:37 PM »

This is painful to read because it means accepting that I was screwed up before I even got into this relationship. I've always accepted my responsibility for the things that go right or wrong in my life. My fundatmental flaw, in spite of compensatory behaviour of high goals and high acheivements, was the lost and lonely child and, deep down, I've always known this.

The indealisation phase was so intoxicating I wanted to hold onto it forever... I was willing and complicit, it couldn't have failed.

Moving forward, ever so slowly but moving forward.
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 10:55:46 PM »

WOW, great thread. It's funny because although my ex is unbelievably stunning and fun when I first met her I actually blew her off for some odd reason. We fooled around for about 2 months after being friends for 3 months then something just wasn't clicking with me. I didn't talk to her for like 6 months  and then ran into her at a place where she worked. (hooters) We started seeing one another shortly after that. This r/s lasted over 3 years. I guess what I am wondering if it is possible that I knew not to get attached to this person then finally after the second time just gave in or is there something wrong with me?. I come from a loving family, my parents are still together after 45 years. I think I grew up with a pretty normal upbringing and very close to my family and they do pretty well for themselves. I dont know. Just wondering why I may have fell for this type of person. I mean, I thought she was a normal person and I have always went out with attractive females so I dont know. Anybody have any suggestions?

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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 12:47:59 AM »

I resemble this thread.

Mind = blown

Overwhelmed by lightbulb moments... .(sigh)... .lots of sorting out to do.

Thanx so much Clearmind and 2010 and your writing moods!
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 12:59:32 AM »

slvr, I fell for my partners looks and I didn't even know who he was at that time. It was a superficial attachment for both of us ~ it was not based on love.

For me I was mirroring my partners looks because I didn't feel beautiful enough. If he was with me then I must be worthy ~ someone as stunning as he liked me. As I said to you before in a previous thread I felt like Cinderella complete with the coach and coachman. At the stroke of midnight the illusion was over.

I was severely devalued by my father and his so called mates ~ not one part of my body was not criticised. My father left some terrible scars regarding my self image, esteem and worth.

My ex also picked on these same things ~ even down to my dress/hair/shoes - the works ~ again my childhood wounds were opened and I trusted my ex in the beginning because I too wanted to be protected just as he did. We were the perfect mirror of childhood dysfunction.

A child's trust of parent has to be earnt and it is not a given just because they gave birth. I have forgiven my father because he has his own set of issues.

The physical attraction was very strong and in the end that was all that was left.

Do you have a T?
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 07:04:10 AM »

Last night, I spent awake. Crying, sobbing, and grieving for the lonely child that was once me.

My eyes are watering as I am typing this.

Thank you for identifying and getting my core worked up.

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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 10:08:18 AM »

I am shaking and tearing up at how dead on accurate this thread is with EVERY twist and turn of how my r/s developed.  It is unbelievable how every nuance was nailed exactly as it played out.  I felt like i was reading a journal of my life, but with a clairity and explanation that i have never had before.  That redefines all star post.  I hope it helped others as much as it helped me. From the bottom of my heart, and through tears of joy and finally a new understanding... . thank you.  

What really got me was the lonely child and abandoned child roles.  I could VERY clearly and precisely see myself and my ex in both of these roles.  Ad the interplay seemed crazy to me at the time but happened exactly as described.  2010 talked about lonely child yearning to become "one" with someone else.  I have actually used those words.  Huge point to cover with my T.   Enmeshment to the extreme is what I was seeking.  Soo unhealthy--and, in the end, destructive.  My goodness, I finally see how this all worked out.  And I definitely played an unhealthy role here.  I am ready to grow.

 you all.
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 11:48:49 AM »

This is a very good thread.

Thank you to all who have participated.

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  Idea )

I don't think we are all fit the Lonely Child and it's probably not too helpful to think of "nons' as all the same and of a particular type.  Some of us have things in common.  Some of us are very different.   

pwBPD are not all are the same, either.
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 02:57:03 PM »

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain.

And there is a benefit in it being painful. Pain is what drives us to break through and get beyond our own coping mechanisms and search for the real causes of our struggles - to find and fix what is defective and live a life that is not marred by a fixable emotional defect.

But getting past the protective coping is the key... .and hard.  We can all see how a pwBPD struggles to do this.  We struggle too. We are often so fearful of pain that we do anything we can to avoid it - alcohol, get a new partner, blame others.  And we are often so fearful of facing our own weaknesses, that we look everywhere else but at ourselves.  But the bottom line is that the person pwBPD is gone now and all that is left is to fix ourselves.

If you are a member that identifies with the "Lonely Child" (more commonly referred to as the "Vulnerable Child" and want to understand what it is all about, read about Jeffery Young's Schema therapy. Here is a little blurb to get started:

Schema therapy founder Jeffrey Young, Ph.D., who is on the faculty of the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, was one of the first students of Aaron Beck, M.D., the founder of cognitive therapy.  Young describes schema therapy as an active, structured therapy for assessing and changing deep-rooted psychological problems by looking at repetitive life patterns and core life themes, called "schemas." Schema therapists use an inventory to assess the schemas that cause persistent problems in a patient's life.

"Once we have determined what schemas a patient has, we use a range of techniques for changing these schemas," Young said. "These include cognitive restructuring, limited re-parenting, changing schemas as they arise in the therapy relationship, intensive imagery work to access and change the source of schemas, and creating dialogues between the `schema,' or dysfunctional, side of patients and the healthy side."

In Schema terms, 2010 described two deep-rooted psychological problems characterized by repetitive life patterns and core life themes, called maladaptive "schemas."   Maladaptive schemas develop in difficult situations and are often survival strategies that are functional within a specific setting early in life.  The problem is that they are maladaptive in other situations or at later stages in life.    

Schema Mode-Abandoned/Abused Child   The borderline patient is seen as being motivated by four or five maladaptive schema modes that make up an inner theater that is filled with pain and conflict. The Abandoned/Abused Child mode is the core schema of the patient.  This is a child who lives in fear and terror and who has no allies in the world.  People in this mode are quite frightened and troubled.  Jeffery Young, PhD and founder of Schema Therapy, stresses that psychologically and emotionally, borderline patients are little children around the age of 4 or 5.  In times of difficulty or high stress, it is helpful to try to see them as children instead of adults.  "Connection", for the Abandoned/Abused Child, is a matter of survival, and this drives much of the intensity that is found in the relationships of these patients.

Schema Mode-Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child  The  Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is a maladaptive schema characterized by feelings of being lonely, isolated, sad, misunderstood, unsupported, defective, deprived, overwhelmed, incompetent, doubts self, needy, helpless, hopeless, frightened, anxious, worried, victimized, worthless, unloved, unlovable, lost, directionless, fragile, weak, defeated, oppressed, powerless, left out, excluded, pessimistic.  The Lonely Child is prone to act in a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern.

It has been pointed out how idealization is a vehicle that can connect people in these two schemas.  The Abandoned/Abused Child is desperately seeking a connection and in BPD that drives an overreaction (idealization).  The Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is approval seeking and revels in it. The Lonely child is also prone to try to cling to the relationship long after it has turned bad as they are tolerant of and often feel deserving of bad treatment.

All of this is a bit over simplified in the thread, but it is an easy intro to a very powerful tool for personal inventory. Schema therapy is largely used for pwBPD tendencies or pwNPD tendencies.  The Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child schema can be present in people with either BPD tendencies, NPD tendencies, or other personality tendencies.  

But most importantly, there is another child... .the Happy Child.

Schema Mode-Happy Child: The Happy Child feels loved, contented, connected, satisfied, fulfilled, protected, accepted, praised, worthwhile, nurtured, guided, understood, validated, self-confident, competent, appropriately autonomous or self-reliant, safe, resilient, strong, in control, adaptable, included, optimistic, spontaneous.

The Schema model and the tenets of the therapy can help us deal with our early maladaptive schemas and move toward the "Happy Child".  

Here is an overview of Schema Therapy:

www.g-gej.org/10-1/schematherapy.html

This is a very thoughtful thread and it's great to see the participation. It should beckon a few to advance to personal inventory.  Personal inventory is the hardest and most rewarding step of all.  But like learning to ski or learning to dive - it's discouraging and painful on the outset.  
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 03:20:46 PM »

I have been going through this dysfunctional dance with a friend and it is clear to me that I just keep trying to recreate the relationship that I had with my pwBPD.  I never saw my part in it before but now I do.  Thank you for helping me see what I was doing.  This thread was very tough to read and just what I needed.  Many thanks, Lila
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 06:48:53 PM »

My Ex was with his wife for 16 years before they divorced and he met me.

His ex wife was very invested in maintaining the relationship at any cost and was fine with a very cold, 'roomate - type' relationship, she got her emotional needs met through her girlfreinds and treated him like an errant man-child she just put up with.  She did  not seek or demand intimacy from him.

That was NOT the case in our relationship.
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 09:36:27 PM »

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  Idea )

We are definitely not all Lonely Children   Smiling (click to insert in post) 

Here is a test. 

What is your total score?  Let us know in the poll above and tell us (post) whether you feel good or are you struggling from effects of the BP relationship?

For your entire adult life:

1= Never     2=Rarely     3=Occasionally       4=Frequently      5=Most of the time       6= All of the time 













Never

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1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1
Rarely

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2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2
Occas

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3

3

3

3

3

3

3

3

3

3
Freq

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4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4
Mostly

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5

5

5

5

5

5

5

5

5

5
Always

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6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6
Question

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I feel fundamentally inadequate, flawed, or defective

I feel lost

I feel desperate

I feel lonely

I feel humiliated

Even if there are people around me, I feel lonely

I often feel alone in the world

I feel weak and helpless

I feel left out or excluded

I feel that nobody loves me
     

To score:  Add the numbers you circled and divide by 10.   



Score

------------

0.0-1.5

1.6 - 2.5

2.6 +
Interpretation

----------------

Normal   

Abnormal 

Seriously Abnormal
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 12:27:47 AM »

I am that lonely child. I am 46, and I have walked around with that for many years. I survived my abusive parents. Sexual abuse from my mother. I kicked heroin and alcohol. I work hard and am respected at my job, but I harbor the loneliness, resentment and loss of identity. I am that lonely lost child... .My xBPDgf filled those things as I strived to maintain her love.  She is so volatile, IDK? I used to ask why God put her in my life? As if it was a cruel joke after what I have overcome in my life she was/is the most difficult... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Perhaps it is the final chapter and I have been given all the tools to free myself from a lifetime of bondage. I am affraid to do the work. face the core, cry... .what happens if I get to deep and dont make it out... .

need to think

thanks

Rich
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 12:30:10 AM »

I was not accustomed to showing self love because much of this was not permitted as a child. For me personally, I was to serve my uBPD father and have absolutely no autonomy for my personal growth. I was never taught to set boundaries (and they were dismissed when I did have any) and was prohibited from looking after my needs and instead was required to put others before me ~ enter BPD.

The idealization phase was fantastic and all that I needed was mirrored back ~ fulfilled my own feelings of loneliness and worthlessness.   
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 02:37:35 PM »

Codependency (or codependence, co-narcissism or inverted narcissism) is unhealthy love and a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life. It also often involves placing a lower priority on one's own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others.[1] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[1] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[1] Narcissists are considered to be natural magnets for the codependent.

... .as well as BPDs.

I need some clarity and have a question... .

Are you saying the "lonely child" is an NPD? (like mentioned in previous post)

or is the "lonely child" a codependent? or neither, and something else?

Both.

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  Idea )

Whether we call ourselves codependents, or have narcissistic traits (which most of us likely do), or both, doesn't make a difference.

Even in case of real NPD's, it holds true for them as well.

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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 10:11:00 PM »

I want to learn more about the "lonely child" and narcissism; they sound all too familiar. When reading about the lonely child, "understanding" and "obsession" really struck a chord with me. I have some  PD traits's to work on it seems. How do you come to terms with things that happened during your childhood though? I want to make changes and eventually have a healthy relationship.

What's the next step? I plan on ordering the book "Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age by James Masterson" recommended by Clearmind.

It is a huge relief to know there are people out there that understand. THANK YOU!  xoxo
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 12:54:08 AM »

Schema Mode-Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child  The  Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is a maladaptive schema characterized by feelings of being lonely, isolated, sad, misunderstood, unsupported, defective, deprived, overwhelmed, incompetent, doubts self, needy, helpless, hopeless, frightened, anxious, worried, victimized, worthless, unloved, unlovable, lost, directionless, fragile, weak, defeated, oppressed, powerless, left out, excluded, pessimistic.  The Lonely Child is prone to act in a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern.

The analysis from which this came was brilliant, and I am catching up.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>> Try to give that to yourself.

Yes, it is understanding, but even more it is recognition, which perhaps is the same thing or at least in the same category. I am a "lonely child" in the analysis and what I crave is recognition and what I feel I got during the mirroring phase was someone who recognized me for who I am, which is what I always wanted since I NEVER got that in my family. And then of course the BPD wasn't really doing that after all. He didn't recognize me at all (as my T pointed out many times).

Diotima
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 10:49:24 AM »

Excerpt
A Borderline, on the other hand, has a deficient sense of false self as well as limited ego functions and borrows the false self of others to fuse to as a security measure.  They value that borrowed “self” very much and it is never devalued and discarded- but rather, is absorbed intrapsychically and grieved. The concept of that good self is returned to often, if only in yearning and fantasy.

I am wondering about this (also related to my previous post). The BPD has a deficient or partial self and goes around mirroring others to feel more whole for awhile. I don't think, at least in my case, that my ex was mirroring my false self. I think he was eliciting something in me that was not recognized as a child but that it really is me and mine and it was brought out and experienced in this r/s--something incredibly valuable to me. This is not to say that the BPD had any clue the significance of this since he was feeding off it. What do you mean by the "false self of others"? Is this the same as the "borrowed self"? I just want to get clear on what you are saying. It is a false self for them I think, but it sure wasn't for me. I think this is why there is so much pain for the non--this mirroring brought to life something very real for us. It was the r/s that was an illusion and then a feeling that once the BPD does the disappearing act and goes on to a new host, they take access away. That isn't true, but it is the feeling. Hence the grief for us. I don't understand that the BPD grieves what they get from us at all given that they replace it almost instantly (mine always had new hosts lined up). Of course, when those r/s's broke up he wanted me back until I wouldn't take him back any more. Could you clarify all the relationships between the ideas in that passage?

Thanks much,

Diotima
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 11:25:19 AM »

I am definitely the "lonely child" schema, as the child of a BP/NPD mother, my psychological coping mechanism was to either disassociate / detach entirely (like a turtle pulling into it's shell) and wait out the "storm", or to soothe, cajole, comfort the object of my need for love.

These days, things are a bit "better" for me - while still living under the same roof as my exBF (UBPD) I can see this dynamic much more clearly.

He is now playing out the idealize/devalue dynamic with a woman (an ex-gf from 15+ years ago) who wants to be with him, but is still married to someone else.   He will spend hours talking to her on FB, talking to me about her (boundaries?  what boundaries?), and then the next day (or even the same day/night) going off on a long winded tirade about how she isn't worth it, is (various derogatory terms) because she is married, etc.

He does seem to be a very small child trapped in the body of an adult, with the same level of emotional maturity of a small child.

Seeing this, understanding it, has lead to a wee bit more compassion on my part, but it also deepens my pain in knowing that I was indeed never truly validated in this relationship.

I think that's probably the key there - the lack of validation and true understanding of the "non" on the part of the borderline.  

Untreated, they lack the capacity to be truly giving without the expectation that you will always do what they want you to do (fill that seemingly endless void in their psyche)

Heavy stuff, indeed.
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2011, 06:19:49 AM »

Unfortunately, (or fortunately), I recognize myself in these posts. We have to know there is something that makes us fall for these type releationships (this is my second one) and it's most likely our own, not so great mental health.  I resemble the altruistic NPD, I'm afraid, and I think I got it the exact way described here.
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