The first time they cheat is when the honetmoon then ends

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

By staying in the relationship the BPD begins to lose respect for the non - even if the non is completely unaware of the cheating. The BPD cannot help but see the non as a cuckold and gradually begins to loathe him and split him black. The lack of respect of the BPD for the non fuels the infidelity and gives a twisted sense of right to the BPD to engage in further extrarelationships.

After the first infidelity (there ends the honeymoon) the crazy-making begins because the BPD both needs the non to stay with her to make her whole but simultaneously hates him for being a cuckold - even if he is unaware of her infidelity.

The end of the relationship occurs when the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

Even if the non learns of the infidelity, the BPD will begin to hate him for staying.

Cheating must be a deal-breaker for the non's self respect - the BPD will continue the infidelity and leave at some point later anyway.

[Mouser]

By staying in the relationship the BPD begins to lose respect for the non - even if the non is completely unaware of the cheating. The BPD cannot help but see the non as a cuckold and gradually begins to loathe him and split him black. The lack of respect of the BPD for the non fuels the infidelity and gives a twisted sense of right to the BPD to engage in further extrarelationships.

After the first infidelity (there ends the honeymoon) the crazy-making begins because the BPD both needs the non to stay with her to make her whole but simultaneously hates him for being a cuckold - even if he is unaware of her infidelity.

The end of the relationship occurs when the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

Even if the non learns of the infidelity, the BPD will begin to hate him for staying.

Cheating must be a deal-breaker for the non's self respect - the BPD will continue the infidelity and leave at some point later anyway.

[Mouser]

Further, up until the first infidelity both are in the honeymoon - both are faithful.

Unclear if the intial phase is unconscious mirrorring by the BPD of the non or a genuine mutual infatuation.

At least two schools of thought exist:

1. The BPD is genuinely in love with the non. The love they feel is so powerful it leads to fear that the non will abandon them as they experienced of love ones in their early childhood. The fear of abandonment becomes overwhelming - they have not the object constancy skills from childhood to accomodate the fear. They first cheat to alleviate the overwhelming fear that when the non leaves they will be destroyed.

2. The BPD never loves the non. The honeymoon is the BPD mirroring the non to set an  emotional hook deep and permanent. BPDs have an uncanny sense to link with partners who are needing in emotional love. The BPD plays the role of perfect new lover until the non is fully on the hook. Once caught the BPD gets bored with the mundane life with the non and begins seeking new and exciting new partners to fill her endless need for validation and excitement. They first cheat when they believe the non is hooked on them.

[LifeIsOn]

well... I think its more when you start to back away or emotionally disconnect (ex: you want to spend alone time or with friends, or family, do your own thing) IMO that triggers them that you are abandoning them and yeah it kinda is the end of the honeymoon stage but there are no honeymoon stage in BPD relationships. its all idealization and devaluation. idealization phase never lasts very long... maybe 2 to 4 months from what I have seen on this forum and then they start to self pity themselves because they honestly dont know who they are (they never do) but in the idealization phase they think they found themselves because they mirror the other person so they are creating something new and it rarely lasts depending on the person. they may mirror some of the things the non likes as mine still does and many of it still   then their BPD traits begins to trigger more worse. there may be mild triggers at the beginning but they stuff in the emotion then boom! it comes out and more and more triggers come and they think they need to break it off and work on themselves but in reality, without therapy they cannot stand that and thats the true birth of the devaluation phase. They only think in black and white.

Some may try to cheat to pull the non back in hoping that the idealization phase will return... sadly it never does. Your right on the end of the relationship (can be few weeks before the actually end of the r/s) (hater phase) they line up the new object (new attachment) so they dont have to be alone and in hoping that the idealization phase will last and IMHO depending on the non and how they are can trigger them even more and worse. I think the more you spend together, the worse the push/pull, and even more triggers.

Yes cheating is prob the deal breaker. If I personally found out any of my exes cheated... Im out. Im sure my exBPD did cheat but she is a waif so she is good at hiding and not being honest or tell the truth. She would tell me but leave out important things because she feared that I would just walk out. She knew how I was about cheating because I been cheated on in the past with my other exes and when I found out, I was gone.

They dont fully understand how much cheating really hurts the non because they dont feel how we feel and feel the pain/hurt the way we do

But you hit alot of good points on how it works



I always wondered... what happens if a non cheated on a BPD? Anyone know what would happen? Would they leave? Or would they stay?

[Mouser]

In the infatuation (honeymoon) phase the non is very, very unlikely to cheat because they are so INTO the BPD.

If the non cheated it would be in the push/pull or hatred phases. In those latter phases of the relationship, the BPD HAS ALREADY CHEATED so the non cheating would; a) give a twisted validation to the BPD's behaviour, b) give fuel to why the BPD no longer can stand the non, c) give fuel to arguements why the non absoulutely cannot leave the BPD since the BPD has 'forgiven' the non for his transgression by staying (probably denying the fact she/he has done exactly the same in secret.

Brad, I hope you are NC with your BPD and you are searching for a relationship where neither your partner or you are unfaithful.

Infidelity by either partner will kill a relationship over time, 100% of the time.

Get out of the way and let the crazy-train run its course. You didn't cause it, you can't change it, and you can't control it.

The BPD is a two year old emotionally in an adult's body.

Years (5 - 10) are needed to change the emotional damage done to them by their caregivers as a child. The therapy MUST be done independent from an ongoing relationship otherwise the risk of projection, triangulation (read definition), lying and further cheating in a 'safe' therapeutic paradigm will occur.

Grim but true. Two years post therapy behaviour with observance or the following rules of thumb are need for a BPD to stop extrarelationship sex - to be considered "recovered":

1. no sex with someone one has known less than 90 days

2. no sex with someone one has not dated at least 30 days.

3. no sex with someone one would not be seen in public with.

4. no sex with someone not emotionally/relationally available i.e. already in a committed relationship

Relationship equals trust. No or broken trust means no relationship.

One can accept that fact now, or learn it over many painful months or years.

P.S. Witholding of emotional/physical intimacy by a BPD means they are 100% getting both these needs met by someone else.

[A New Leaf]

In the infatuation (honeymoon) phase the non is very, very unlikely to cheat because they are so INTO the BPD.

If the non cheated it would be in the push/pull or hatred phases. In those latter phases of the relationship, the BPD HAS ALREADY CHEATED so the non cheating would; a) give a twisted validation to the BPD's behaviour, b) give fuel to why the BPD no longer can stand the non, c) give fuel to arguements why the non absoulutely cannot leave the BPD since the BPD has 'forgiven' the non for his transgression by staying (probably denying the fact she/he has done exactly the same in secret.

Brad, I hope you are NC with your BPD and you are searching for a relationship where neither your partner or you are unfaithful.

Infidelity by either partner will kill a relationship over time, 100% of the time.

Get out of the way and let the crazy-train run its course. You didn't cause it, you can't change it, and you can't control it.

The BPD is a two year old emotionally in an adult's body.

Years (5 - 10) are needed to change the emotional damage done to them by their caregivers as a child. The therapy MUST be done independent from an ongoing relationship otherwise the risk of projection, triangulation (read definition), lying and further cheating in a 'safe' therapeutic paradigm will occur.

Grim but true. Two years post therapy behaviour with observance or the following rules of thumb are need for a BPD to stop extrarelationship sex - to be considered "recovered":

1. no sex with someone one has known less than 90 days

2. no sex with someone one has not dated at least 30 days.

3. no sex with someone one would not be seen in public with.

4. no sex with someone not emotionally/relationally available i.e. already in a committed relationship

Relationship equals trust. No or broken trust means no relationship.

One can accept that fact now, or learn it over many painful months or years.

P.S. Witholding of emotional/physical intimacy by a BPD means they are 100% getting both these needs met by someone else.

In the infatuation (honeymoon) phase the non is very, very unlikely to cheat because they are so INTO the BPD.

If the non cheated it would be in the push/pull or hatred phases. In those latter phases of the relationship, the BPD HAS ALREADY CHEATED so the non cheating would; a) give a twisted validation to the BPD's behaviour, b) give fuel to why the BPD no longer can stand the non, c) give fuel to arguements why the non absoulutely cannot leave the BPD since the BPD has 'forgiven' the non for his transgression by staying (probably denying the fact she/he has done exactly the same in secret.

Brad, I hope you are NC with your BPD and you are searching for a relationship where neither your partner or you are unfaithful.

Infidelity by either partner will kill a relationship over time, 100% of the time.

Get out of the way and let the crazy-train run its course. You didn't cause it, you can't change it, and you can't control it.

The BPD is a two year old emotionally in an adult's body.

Years (5 - 10) are needed to change the emotional damage done to them by their caregivers as a child. The therapy MUST be done independent from an ongoing relationship otherwise the risk of projection, triangulation (read definition), lying and further cheating in a 'safe' therapeutic paradigm will occur.

Grim but true. Two years post therapy behaviour with observance or the following rules of thumb are need for a BPD to stop extrarelationship sex - to be considered "recovered":

1. no sex with someone one has known less than 90 days

2. no sex with someone one has not dated at least 30 days.

3. no sex with someone one would not be seen in public with.

4. no sex with someone not emotionally/relationally available i.e. already in a committed relationship

Relationship equals trust. No or broken trust means no relationship.

One can accept that fact now, or learn it over many painful months or years.

P.S. Witholding of emotional/physical intimacy by a BPD means they are 100% getting both these needs met by someone else.

Great post Mouser.  Yes, trust is lost with infidelity, a concept my exH could never understand.

[colt81522]

**Posted this first on the "Undecided" board by mistake**

My BPDgf is already having an emotional affair with some guy so I realize it's only a matter of time before it becomes a sexual one.

She is obviously trying to justify these two relationships (ours and with this guy) by lying to both me and herself. (Most of the time) she tells me she loves me and wants to be with me but that she is not physically attracted to me any longer. Says she has to re-think her definition of love. Yet I have overheard her tell this guy she loves him during several phone conversations. When I confronted her about what I heard she told me she was talking to her sister (lying & gaslighting?) 

She went for a few therapy sessions but stopped. Said she didn't "trust" the T. I have asked her to go to couples therapy with me. She says she will but that day never seems to arrive. I am seeing my own individual T. Unfornunately, I made the mistake of telling my gf that I was working on my own issues (abandonment fears) in therapy. Now I feel she uses this information as emotional blackmail to keep me from leaving her.

[JonnyJon42]

Its seems they cheat always not always with sex but as Colt said they will engage in emotional affairs mine did both but seems (as far as ive seen and heard maybe wrong and you must remember that if it can happen with them lots of time it has or will ) the guy she was in a emotional affair with she has no want to be in a real relationship with although she is gone now so that could be whats going on now but she has know him for years and never moved that way so hard to say. She admits he wants a full relationship with her but she dont see him that way ( so im thinking she enjoys the contorl she has over him knowing he pines for her and likes the power she has by making him chase). So i think they dont always go the sex route that any power and control is good in there book

[2010]

By staying in the relationship the BPD begins to lose respect for the non - even if the non is completely unaware of the cheating. The BPD cannot help but see the non as a cuckold and gradually begins to loathe him and split him black. The lack of respect of the BPD for the non fuels the infidelity and gives a twisted sense of right to the BPD to engage in further extrarelationships.

Well, No. You're assuming much too much responsibility and blame for the disorder in this post. Using terms like "cuckold" is your own projection of self onto Borderline dynamics. You may feel this way, but I assure you- it's only how you see yourself at the moment.

After the first infidelity (there ends the honeymoon) the crazy-making begins because the BPD both needs the non to stay with her to make her whole but simultaneously hates him for being a cuckold - even if he is unaware of her infidelity.

Borderlines value in a way that causes them great anxiety-and they need to constantly find relief from that anxiety. It's not sociopathic or "self" directed. It's object oriented.

BPD is not due to the partner being lacking in some way and then being defeated by another male. The "crazy making" comes pre-packaged with the disorder, and it emerges in action. There are wild mood swings back and forth on a pendulum toward and away from objects (that's you and me.) It is an attachment disorder that seeks to attach and once attached seeks to flee. The honeymoon ends *well* before the flee to a new object.

It has various states of mind: Engulfment (there's your hating) and fears of annihilation (there's your need to seek out a new object) and the need to belong to someone (there's your desire to attach) and subsequent fear of abandonment. None of these states are due to boredom.  

the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

The dishonesty is not dishonest, it is honestly, a survival mode. This is a disorder. Accept that what was going to occur was already in the blueprint.

Try to accept that Borderline is a disorder. There isn't anything you could have done to change the distorted belief and the FEELINGS that come from those beliefs. It is a horrible way to live.  The belief that you are punitive, punishing and persecutorial is what makes the mental illness emerge into action- in other words to flee from you and seek out others.  Other actions also arise to combat the belief that you are good - in other words to stay with you and attempt to settle into a bond. Both swing apart and duel- and are what creates chaos.

It's not because you are thought of as a "cuckold."

Try to accept that and stand apart from it to peer inside their mind. You'll heal faster if you let go of the idea that there was something you could have done differently. There wasn't. You see, it was never really about you- it was about their objectification of themselves and the persecution that drives them internally which causes great shame.

[trellabor]

I concur with 2010. I think it begins much earlier than making a simple 'decision' to cheat on someone. It starts when the fear of engulfment become present in the BPD and they look for/imagine/even create - reasons to push the non away. Once they decide on something, depending on how black they paint the non it could transition into cheating during that phase or it may build UP to cheating over a series of push/pull scenarios. This could be amplified if the non has commited 'indiscretions' or the BPD believes, whether real or imagined, their non has engaged in such behaviors thus justifying their own. They may even project these feelings of being 'cheated on' onto the non by way of memories of perhaps a past relationship or ex that cheated on the BPD or even their own parents indiscretions they witnessed as a child. The decision to 'cheat' for a BPD requires a trigger like most of their 'reactions' since it seems IMO that they rarely 'act' moreso than react - whether it be to events, words, or emotions within themselves.

[LifeIsOn]

My ex almost cheated on me cuz I was not paying enough attention to her cuz I was dead busy with projects during finals. What does that mean?

[trellabor]

My ex almost cheated on me cuz I was not paying enough attention to her cuz I was dead busy with projects during finals. What does that mean?

Could mean nothing... .people without a PD think about sleeping with others while in a r/s sometimes(i have before) but actually doing it and acting on those feelings is something completely different.

[LifeIsOn]

Oh ok just trying to see how it fits with the BPD fear. She always wanted attention 24/7 and I was busy with school. She admitted thinking of it. She has cheated on all bfs in the past as I know of. Just thought of asking to see if it is part of their fear or trigger. She thinks in black n white as she said that (red flag I ignored)... .*face palm*

[Mouser]

"The dishonesty is not dishonest, it is honestly, a survival mode."

I disagree. It may well be a BPD survival mode, but it is still dishonest.

If you break my arm or break my heart they will heal - but I'm not going to wait for a next time by saying to myself its your mode of survival.

[StillInShock]

So cheating is a survival tool for the BPDs... .they can't live without it

I have a question... .do they realize that they cheated?... .do they know what they have committed?

Or they live in constant denial and blame it on the NON's?

[LifeIsOn]

I do think they do know they have cheated but they dont really understand how it is in the way we do... some do it when they didnt get enough attention or feel like will be abandoned or an emotion triggered that they will cheat or threat to cheat... my ex did that... .or thought of it or threat dk which but anyways... they wont blame or will blame at first or later on. they will say you didnt try harder enough or you didnt love me enough. IMHO tho.

I always wondered this as well... .What would happen if a non cheated on the BPD and how the BPD would react. would they stay or leave?

[artman.1]

P.S. Witholding of emotional/physical intimacy by a BPD means they are 100% getting both these needs met by someone else.

     Mouser, I have been married to my UBPDW for 43 years.  She stopped responding to my hugs and kisses after a year or so.  She still allowed me to hug her, kiss her and have sex.  She was either a non participant, or responded minimally.  After about 7 years we had three sons, 3, 4, & 5 years old, and she was a very good Mother.  She started cheating and going out with her younger BPD sister who was getting a divorce and called me a male chauvanist.  She filed for a divorce, and I got a laweyer and responded.  She would leave when I got home from work, and come home when I had to go to work.  I followed her to a dance club one night near our home, and saw our car parked way back in the parking lot.  I went back bye there a while later that night, and saw her cheating in our car back there in the parking lot.  Several days later I heard her talking on the phone, and she was telling her GF that she hopes her period is not started before the weekend party.  I had to work the next weekend about 50 miles away, and when I got home sunday, I found my sterio gear was missing.  I asked her, and she claimed no knowledge.  I filed a burglery report with the police.  We reconciled, and I moved my family 1500 miles North, and she followed.  About a year or so after moving, she stopped all intimacy.  She refuses hugs, kisses, and sex.  She has refused intimacy for 35 years. 

     I wonder who she is with while I am at work?  I have never seen any, or heard any signs of fowel play, and I sometimes come home un-announced.  Still, I wonder?

Art

[CodependentHusband]

P.S. Witholding of emotional/physical intimacy by a BPD means they are 100% getting both these needs met by someone else.

... .

     I wonder who she is with while I am at work?  I have never seen any, or heard any signs of fowel play, and I sometimes come home un-announced.  Still, I wonder?

Art

I don't know if I buy this... .not because I don't want to be a cockold, but because I think that it's an over-generalization. When and where does the emotional connection with this third person take place? I know that in my case when my dBPDw has pushed me away and split me black, I have checked email and phone records because I've suspected infidelity... .always came up with nothing to indicate an affair. My wife will send me tons of texts a day, even when she has me painted black. I can't imagine her having an emotional affair with someone without talking/texting/emailing them... .she's just too manic when she idealizes someone. Based on what I have read of others' experiences, there are those with BPD who simply seem to be unable to engage in any type of intimacy when they are having engulfment fears. Of course, I may never know for sure if my dBPDw ever cheated on me... .I'll just have to be okay with that, and it won't matter to me too much anyway after I finally get to leave soon.

[bpdlover]

Interesting thread. Pretty sure mine began the cheating after about two months. Had herself set up for a new object and split me totally black eighteen months later.

[CodependentHusband]

Pretty sure mine began the cheating after about two months.

What are you basing this on? Was there evidence, or are you just assuming that she started cheating because she pushed you away? She cheated on you for 16 months before it ended? Why so long, I wonder?

[Fish]

One of the hard core certainties I have had during my 19 marriage with uBPDw was that she would not cheat, that it would be so out of her character to do so that I never worried about it.

Coming up on a year now of learning that she had, with a kid just barely older than our oldest son, and a kid younger than the marriage itself, I no longer put it past her to do anything. I do not trust her at all and never will again. She destroyed not only her marriage but her relationship with her sons. She threw all of that away for nothing.

I do not know about anyone else's pwBPD, but mine when she was caught proclaimed that I was making too much out of it. She evaluated the cheating at the level of her attachment to that kid, not at the level of the betrayal of her husband and sons. "Nothing happened" (she said), so therefore it had no effect at all on us. Perverse. Disordered. Enormously destructive to the people in her immediate family who she is supposed to love. And even a year later she still does not get it, acts like it is just water under the bridge... .

[bpdlover]

I am not certain she cheated but she invited a guy she said she was intimate with over after two months of our relationship. She turned her phone off, I couldn't get through for several hours and she asked me if I was jealous when I finally got through. It didn't seem right let's put it that way. Then a month later, she slept in the same bed as a guy after telling me that we were breaking up. She basically made the rules and ejected me to try him out. This lasted several weeks and I rang the guy and he told me nothing happened but he was over her place for two weeks in a row on weekends. Cannot say for sure but it's off I think. The rest of the time, he would appear during our break ups but she kept saying he was just a friend. Again, not sure. Did not know what she was doing before she broke it off with me but there was a five week period before she came back for two weeks where she had bought new lingerie and told me as she broke it off with me. When I came back she told me I felt different in bed. Huh? The she bailed after several last intense sessions.

[Mouser]

BPD lover:

Red flag! (perfume)

www.metatube.com/en/videos/76083/SNL-Chanel-Red-Flag-Perfume/

[MasculineMinded]

So cheating is a survival tool for the BPDs... .they can't live without it

I have a question... .do they realize that they cheated?... .do they know what they have committed?

Or they live in constant denial and blame it on the NON's?

StillinShock!

Great question... .

I would say they internally realize the exhileration of cheating, then actually going through the shame because that is how they have lived most of their life... .I also wold say they deny any wrong of it, to themselves and to their partners... .

MM

[StillInShock]

So cheating is a survival tool for the BPDs... .they can't live without it

I have a question... .do they realize that they cheated?... .do they know what they have committed?

Or they live in constant denial and blame it on the NON's?

StillinShock!

Great question... .

I would say they internally realize the exhileration of cheating, then actually going through the shame because that is how they have lived most of their life... .I also wold say they deny any wrong of it, to themselves and to their partners... .

MM

MM... .thanks for your reply

What kind of shame they feel? is it equivalent to guilt? how can they feel shame if they have no conscience?

I'm trying to translate their feelings so I can understand what goes in their minds

[redberry]

Stillinshock, they do have a conscious.  If they didn't, they would be sociopaths.  Which they are not.  Cheating isn't done to intentionally inflict harm on their SO.  It is done because a need in the BPD isn't being met by the SO at that moment.  So they are compelled to do it.  Just like a drug addict is compelled to take another hit.  That's the disorder.  They can't help themselves.  That doesn't mean they aren't liable for the consequences.  No matter what is going on in their heads, cheating is wrong.  But I think we have to understand that they process things differently.  They're not necessarily bad people, they are very sick people whose actions cause harm to others.

[StillInShock]

Stillinshock, they do have a conscious.  If they didn't, they would be sociopaths.  Which they are not.  Cheating isn't done to intentionally inflict harm on their SO.  It is done because a need in the BPD isn't being met by the SO at that moment.  So they are compelled to do it.  Just like a drug addict is compelled to take another hit.  That's the disorder.  They can't help themselves.  That doesn't mean they aren't liable for the consequences.  No matter what is going on in their heads, cheating is wrong.  But I think we have to understand that they process things differently.  They're not necessarily bad people, they are very sick people whose actions cause harm to others.

Hi redberry,

The normal human emotions are functionally connected together and can't be separated from each others... .conscience... .guilt... .remorse... .empathy and regret

According to what I read... .they are humanoids... .lack any humanitarian sensations... .that's why they don't look back to evaluate their actions... simply... .they didn't do anything wrong for things to go wrong... .that's what my ex-fiance used to say... .that he never did anything wrong in any of his previous relationships... .he blamed all of the poor tormented souls for what they deserved.

Again... .what kind of shame they feel that makes them so compulsive to discard their loved one?

[2010]

Borderline is a developmental disorder that arrests at the free will stage.  Free will would allow for guilt.  Guilt is for what you *do* (as a "self" directed human.) Shame is for who you are (or aren't in this case) Shame is for allowing the deficient "self" to be acted upon and "object"-tified. The objectifcation is what allows for attachment and disallows any guilt about what occurs in the clinging or hating of that attachment.  Borderline is very much about blame.

Borderline is a disorder. Inside of that, Borderlines are humans, with emotions that are highly attuned to the reward of others and the perceived withdrawal of that reward which causes impulsive, not planned attempts to rid the deficient "self" from anxiety about being attached and depending on them.

[MasculineMinded]

2010

Thanks for the knowledge, had to read it a few times, going to go do some research on developmental models ( I am guessing this goes far beyond Erickson and Pigets)


MM

[Finished]

The end of the relationship occurs when the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

Even if the non learns of the infidelity, the BPD will begin to hate him for staying.

Cheating must be a deal-breaker for the non's self respect - the BPD will continue the infidelity and leave at some point later anyway.

I learned this the hard way ... .My ex cheated so many times ... .Many more than I know about I'm sure ... .

I forgave him the first one because he was dx with BPD shortly after and it was attributed to the disease ... .Therapy started and the understanding was that if he cheated again, we were over ...

I found out about the second affair and he dumped me about 7 days later ... .Now I suspect there were many other instances of cheating ... .

Do I believe he lost respect for me? Yes and No ... .I don't think he ever respected himself, so how could he respect me? ... .

But, I do believe that my staying, regardless of my reasons was interpreted as approval of his actions by my ex which made it easier for him to cheat again ... .

Yes, I do think he hated me for staying, because I became a constant reminder of his actions ... .He couldn't stand to face himself ... .

[bpdlover]

Mine always complained of being "sore" down there. I had never met anyone who was always so sore. Would she have been cheating I wonder? Or just sick all the time?