Standing up for yourself

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

A little bit of background. I didn't know my ex had disorders, I was too caught up in trying to work out why I was being treated the way I was and too deep inside the FOG, so believed all the excuses she had for her behaviour e.g. work-stress, an ill relative etc. etc.

Briefly, I've been doing a lot of work on myself in the past 6 months or so, working out my part in things and trying, with some success, to make sense of everything, so I can learn what I can and move forward, never to make the same mistakes again. One thing that I did during the relationship, as I'm pretty stubborn and independent, was to stick up for myself whenever she directly trashed me or any of my achievements. I also stood up for myself when she did something crazy that either hurt me or the relationship and I told her so. In retrospect, this played right into her hands, making me the punitive parent but that's just what I did at the time, I fought.

Now, pre-relationship, I'd been working on myself and looking at my relationships with people and this has continued after the disaster that was my relationship with my BPD ex. I was aware that one friend, who has always had money issues due to not working for a long time, would always be on the lookout for me to buy him a beer or 4 whenever I visited him. Now, I of course justified the beer buying and the birthday presents etc. simply that we've known each other for a long time, when he does have money, he reciprocates and buys me the odd drink but there were times when I'd visit and he'd clearly be expecting me to stump up the cash for drinks, so slowly, over a period of about a year, I stopped this practice because our friendship shouldn't be about buying stuff, it should be stronger than that. One other thing I'd noticed, was that 9 times out of 10, I'd buy him something and he'd never say thank you.

So, cut to his birthday, post relationship with my BPD ex, i'm paying great attention to relationships with family and friends because i'm concerned that due to my needs in years gone by to help and solve other people's problems, i'm basically being viewed as a doormat, emotionally, financially etc. and this is something that I'd been trying to change, believe me, being with a BPD person really made me stand-up for myself, like I used to when i was in my 20's. I buy my friend a present, nothing fancy, just a DVD, something he hadn't seen which I thought he'd like. I give it to him a couple of days before his birthday and I get no thanks but I let it go, seeing if he'd thank me once he'd opened it. Needless to say, he doesn't mention the gift at all when I see him after his birthday, so, I let it go, he won't get another present next year, just a card.

Flash-forward to a few days ago and completely out-of-the-blue, he mentions that out of all his friends, i'm the only one who talks about his work situation and he finds it 'strange and odd' that I do and it pisses him off. So, I stand up for myself and I tell him that it's just friendly concern. He starts to get more annoyed and I tell him that out of the two of us, I'm the one who should be annoyed because he still hasn't thanked me for his Birthday present. It just came out and it must clearly have been on my mind and bothering me but as soon as I said it, he slams the phone down.

Now, I could have handled it better, yes, but should standing up for yourself, putting yourself first sometimes and not letting people take advantage of you or put you down be this hard? I felt sick afterwards, the whole situation, raised voices, aggressiveness on both sides and a phone being slammed down, brought back memories of the relationship with my ex. but I stood my ground as I knew this was just an attempt on his part to not want me to remind me of his work situation.

I'm giving him some time to cool off and have sent him an e-mail explaining that I expect someone to say 'thanks' when you get them a present or buy them a beer, as I don't think it's much to ask of a person, let alone a friend of many years (setting boundaries) but I'm on here looking for opinions because I'm having relationship flashbacks and I can feel a little bit of FOG descending    Have others found themselves asserting themselves, only to have people try to knock them back down to where their 'friends' think they should be? (yes 'friends', as I've been questioning our friendship for a couple of years, as I've been the giver, without much being given in return but I'm not asking for much here as I empathize with his situation. Sounds familiar to you all?)

[used_up]

A little bit of background. I didn't know my ex had disorders, I was too caught up in trying to work out why I was being treated the way I was and too deep inside the FOG, so believed all the excuses she had for her behaviour e.g. work-stress, an ill relative etc. etc.

Briefly, I've been doing a lot of work on myself in the past 6 months or so, working out my part in things and trying, with some success, to make sense of everything, so I can learn what I can and move forward, never to make the same mistakes again. One thing that I did during the relationship, as I'm pretty stubborn and independent, was to stick up for myself whenever she directly trashed me or any of my achievements. I also stood up for myself when she did something crazy that either hurt me or the relationship and I told her so. In retrospect, this played right into her hands, making me the punitive parent but that's just what I did at the time, I fought.

Now, pre-relationship, I'd been working on myself and looking at my relationships with people and this has continued after the disaster that was my relationship with my BPD ex. I was aware that one friend, who has always had money issues due to not working for a long time, would always be on the lookout for me to buy him a beer or 4 whenever I visited him. Now, I of course justified the beer buying and the birthday presents etc. simply that we've known each other for a long time, when he does have money, he reciprocates and buys me the odd drink but there were times when I'd visit and he'd clearly be expecting me to stump up the cash for drinks, so slowly, over a period of about a year, I stopped this practice because our friendship shouldn't be about buying stuff, it should be stronger than that. One other thing I'd noticed, was that 9 times out of 10, I'd buy him something and he'd never say thank you.

So, cut to his birthday, post relationship with my BPD ex, i'm paying great attention to relationships with family and friends because i'm concerned that due to my needs in years gone by to help and solve other people's problems, i'm basically being viewed as a doormat, emotionally, financially etc. and this is something that I'd been trying to change, believe me, being with a BPD person really made me stand-up for myself, like I used to when i was in my 20's. I buy my friend a present, nothing fancy, just a DVD, something he hadn't seen which I thought he'd like. I give it to him a couple of days before his birthday and I get no thanks but I let it go, seeing if he'd thank me once he'd opened it. Needless to say, he doesn't mention the gift at all when I see him after his birthday, so, I let it go, he won't get another present next year, just a card.

Flash-forward to a few days ago and completely out-of-the-blue, he mentions that out of all his friends, i'm the only one who talks about his work situation and he finds it 'strange and odd' that I do and it pisses him off. So, I stand up for myself and I tell him that it's just friendly concern. He starts to get more annoyed and I tell him that out of the two of us, I'm the one who should be annoyed because he still hasn't thanked me for his Birthday present. It just came out and it must clearly have been on my mind and bothering me but as soon as I said it, he slams the phone down.

Now, I could have handled it better, yes, but should standing up for yourself, putting yourself first sometimes and not letting people take advantage of you or put you down be this hard? I felt sick afterwards, the whole situation, raised voices, aggressiveness on both sides and a phone being slammed down, brought back memories of the relationship with my ex. but I stood my ground as I knew this was just an attempt on his part to not want me to remind me of his work situation.

I'm giving him some time to cool off and have sent him an e-mail explaining that I expect someone to say 'thanks' when you get them a present or buy them a beer, as I don't think it's much to ask of a person, let alone a friend of many years (setting boundaries) but I'm on here looking for opinions because I'm having relationship flashbacks and I can feel a little bit of FOG descending    Have others found themselves asserting themselves, only to have people try to knock them back down to where their 'friends' think they should be? (yes 'friends', as I've been questioning our friendship for a couple of years, as I've been the giver, without much being given in return but I'm not asking for much here as I empathize with his situation. Sounds familiar to you all?)

[balagan]

First off well done. You are setting boundaries and sticking with them. You are only responsible for your own feelings and by setting healthy boundaries you are doing just that.

You may find that some "friends" may have a problem with you being who you are, but that is their problem not yours. As long as you are true to yourself, communicate your wants and stick to your boundaries then in the long term you will find yourself less frustrated and resentful. The other important thing is to not take the words or actions of others personally.

One important question these days with regards to doing things for other people is I ask myself what do I want for doing any type of favour. If I want something in return then I communicate it, if I don't want anything in return then fine - and I don't bhit about non-reciprocating actions afterwards. When you do something for someone else and expect something but don't communicate, this is a covert contract and any resentment or frustration afterwards is entirely down to you because you haven't communicated your expectations.

Another question is whilst you are going around doing everyone favours and seeing to their needs, who is looking after yours?

[used_up]

This is it, my expectations aren't high or unreasonable, so people who may have been used to treating me in ways I won't tolerate, are being told that they're behaviour isn't something I'm prepared to put up with. I should have found a way to have dealt with the lack of thanks at the time though. Not making waves in some situations is a habit I'm slowly breaking (in a work situation, no problem, in other social situations or relationships, no problem but sometimes, well, soft boundary with some people, I give their circumstances too much consideration), I'd just bury the issue, convince myself it wasn't that big of a deal and then, no surprize, it would pop up later, when someone would push me too far.

A lesson learned for me is to deal with any issue at the time and discuss it. I've been viewing some friendships as better than they really are, making too many excuses, so slowly strengthening those friendships that are good and not expending energy on those that are bad, now that I'm paying more attention but... .it's my nature to give people final chances. I am aware that if people continue to let me down or not even bother to do basic, friendly things, I need to put these friendships on the back-burner and seek out people who are better friends.

Sounds pretty basic but I got used to doing things for people at some point and it's been a hard habit to curtail. Putting myself first more of the time has been a weight off my shoulders, so, onward and upward.

[2010]

Command: “I will listen to what you want and give it, with the obligation that you are to like my gift and thank me, which will provide me with the feeling that I exist.”

Permission: “I will listen to what you want and will give it as long as it does not compromise me too much. You are under no obligation to like my gift or to give one back to me.”  ~Dorothea S. McArthur. Birth of a self in adulthood.

Many friends give gifts. In fact, some can be counted on to remember all Birthdays, Holidays and special events. Some recipients of these gifts feel uncomfortable; among those are the unemployed.

If a person is unemployed, they often live in self-neglect. Self neglect is a wandering state that presupposes that needs are washed for emotional safety. Sure, a beer or two or four here and there for self medication- but that only adds on to the self neglect and can even spiral down into neediness that attracts certain rescuers (controllers.) What’s more important here is the presupposition of charity.

People with self neglect suffer guilt or even anxiety for receiving gifts. Sometimes they feel a strong obligation to reciprocate but become frustrated, they then choose to ignore the gift or underplay it, because they feel obligation. With obligation comes anger.

The gift giver, on the other hand, can feel rejected. When the gift giver confronts a person with self neglect, it can appear like an attack.  Control and command. The only thing left for the person with self neglect to do is to withdraw from the “gift” giver, and both now feel personally attacked. The self neglect also represents the friendship and the bond.

What’s important:

It is clear at this point that the gift is not freely given as an expression of love but is done to have the recipient respond, making the giver feel appreciated and loved.

This is especially important when the giver is already feeling especially unlovable due to the demise of the previous relationship. Given perspective, you may have even given and given to your parents and not gotten what you needed in terms of love and support. This uneven exchange may extend for decades in your family of origin with the emotional unavailability of your parents. It may be on-going if they are still alive.

If you continually give in this way and expect acknowledgement of it from people who cannot give it back to you (due to their own issues,) it will only increase your feeling of worthlessness.

Gift giving is not an exchange. The person who *receives* the gift is under no obligation to give you anything back. They can also decide what to do with the gift without worrying about the consequences to the relationship.  

If the lack of thanks for a gift is enough to end the friendship, then determine where this idea of reference is coming from concerning the "exchange" you are receiving for the act of "giving."  

Some people find the “tyrannical shoulds” to be an eye-opener. www.ptypes.com/rebt-musts.html

[used_up]

That's a very thought provoking reply.

I can see how the expectation of thanks matches the description of a command but for me it's much simpler, it's just polite to thank someone for a gift and if they don't, it makes me wonder why they haven't thanked me, as it's a social convention that I hold myself up to. I wouldn't be rude and not thank someone if they gave me something on my Birthday, most children are taught that when they're young (not all, it has to be said). Of course, this is an expectation, something I can let slide, as I have done in the past with my friend, due to his situation and circumstances. His self-neglect is something I've seen over many years, hence me removing myself as a source of beer money.

As mentioned in my original post, I am looking at relationships with people more closely and working out if I've been applying the same rose-tinted spectacles to friendships, as I did with the relationship with my ex, questioning myself and examining my interactions to see if there are expectations that I have that are unreasonable and also whether I'm being 'used' by people. I am more aware of the way people treat me and I did let the lack of thanks go but it just came bubbling up out of nowhere, so that's something for me to look at.

It is clear at this point that the gift is not freely given as an expression of love but is done to have the recipient respond, making the giver feel appreciated and loved.

Not entirely true, that's a big assumption. The giving is not done to make me feel better about myself, neither is the gift given to make the recipient respond but... .in terms of social convention, upbringing, a lack of thanks, I see as rude. I can't see myself throwing that convention away any time soon.

The only thing left for the person with self neglect to do is to withdraw from the “gift” giver, and both now feel personally attacked. The self neglect also represents the friendship and the bond.

Could you explain the second part, how his self-neglect represents the friendship and the bond? I don't quite see how this fits our relationship.

[MaybeSo]

It sounds like from your original post that 9/10 times if a gift was given he would never say thank you. So the social convention of giving a thank you upon receipt of a gift seems to have grown in importance just recently. He has failed to thank you in the past with no repurcussions. We teach people how to treat us. It can be unnerving to suddenly change the lesson plan with little or no warning. Part of what you are dealing with is boundaries. Boundaries are for us, not others. With growth you may come to the realization that you no longer wish to give gifts to individuals who never offer a thank you. It would be your responsibility to adhere to your own boundary.

I resonate most fully with 2010 reply; especially the childhood arrangement of giving up way too much to adults as a way to stay safe, then repeating this as an adult with other adults and then feeling used or ripped off or underappreciated. We help set this table.

I do have people in my life that do not always reciprocate in ways I might like. I sometimes weed these folks out of my life if the person feels too toxic.  Or, simply take care of myself during my interactions with others. I try as much as possible to go into radical acceptance about others, what you see is what you get... .and I try to keep in touch with my own free

will and choice. This helps me tremendously. I make choices. I may even choose to continue a r/s that in part seems not reciprocal if upon examination I realize I do get something from the r/s. For example, I have friends who I would likely buy the beer because I'm employed and they aren't, and i would do do because I enjoy that persons company in that context, so  it is rewarding to me and therefore there is a kind of reciprocity going on. Its just not about beer for beer or gift for a thank you. If it was not enjoyable or rewarding in some manner, I wouldn't have this person in my life.  

There are tons of interesting people with various gifts to offer others who do not always follow prescribed etiqutte in terms of please and thank you, etc. when there is a power imbalance these can sometimes feel weird or akward.

Do you get something ftom the r/s? Does it bring something to your life? If it does, then there already is reciprocity.

If it doesn't feel good, if you feel it's all about you giving and them taking, with a heaping dish of abuse, then we have to examine why we have put up with this for so long and start taking care of our own boundaries. At that point, standing up for yourself doesn't Have to mean chastising another for being who they have always been, but often, standing up for yourself is total acceptance of who this person is and just quietly walking away or just no longer being there.

[juner]

I am grateful for this thread because I was reminded of my sister, who has traits of an vulnerable narcissist - a very "nice" person - but the gift-giving. Well... .let's just say it comes with its own set of eggshells. I could write a short novel on the subject. I'm not saying this is the same dynamic for the OP. However, I couldn't help but think that we are all free not to give stuff. Also, some people may interpret gift-giving as a kind of message that they need rescuing or are not quite capable of managing on their own. Some folks, if they are financially strapped, don't like to be reminded of this. They may accept the gifts at first, but then grow to almost resent them, without being able to articulate this in any way. It gets trickier for the recipient when it's a birthday gift. But even then, there are people who don't care one way or another whether they get gifts on these occasions. You can either accept this world view or set boundaries to honour your own value system.