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Author Topic: Infidelity and BPD  (Read 2202 times)
the_way_back
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« on: May 04, 2012, 05:52:03 AM »

Having read a lot of threads, it seems that this is the recurring theme. So I'd like to share some of my thoughts and would love to hear the thoughts of others.

Is infidelity indicative of a disorder? Personally, I don't think infidelity is red flag in of it's own. I have a friend that believes it is completely intolerable and unforgivable. There are many that may share this view. However, I believe, if certain conditions are met, any one of us - anybody - isn't immune to acts of indiscretion. I would never subscribe to the view that cheating can ultimately help a relationship. However, I think once is forgivable. Often, it's almost worth getting your fingers burnt just to know and feel for yourself that it isn't worth the shame, the pain and the guilt. I've known of people that have been unfaithful to partners, only to be faced with an overwhelming sense of "how could I?"

I believe the key here is patterns of behavior and thought. I've heard it said that if someone cheats once, they probably won't cheat again. If someone cheats twice, then they will cheat a third, fourth... .in fact, they probably won't ever stop.

In hindsight I wonder now if my ex before this ex had similar traits. They both proclaimed to me very early on, how intolerable cheating is and should I ever consider it, then they already had their revenge well thought out. That included threats of damage to personal possessions etc.

They both cheated. My ex ex if you will, shacked up with my best friend while we were still living together. And my xuBPDw has cheated on me 3 times that I know, and probably more that I don't. In their minds it's never cheating.

I've recently considered that a relationship being over still isn't enough to escape being labelled a cheat. After breaking up with a normal person in a normal relationship, for a while you seem to sort of develop a relationship with the break-up. As you both reconcile your feelings. I believe, after any serious relationship, most normal folk would need some time and distance before wanting to be intimate again.

Ultimately, when a BPD sufferer proclaims about how much they detest infidelity, they are basically saying, they will detest it if you do it, but they will make excuses to do it themselves.

Bottom line is, if you have been replaced, and even found your relationship overlapped with another, I'd say take solace in the fact that it isn't normal ,it isn't healthy and it's down right wrong.

BPD or not, there's really no excuse for treating another human being this way.

And as for overlapping with replacements, just remember... .and this goes out to all those replacements that will be on this board in months or years to come... .if they cheated with you, they will cheat on you... .my ex has already cheated on my current replacement 3 times. And he told her right at the start that he won't tolerate infidelity. He seems to be tolerating it just fine to me  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 06:35:40 AM »

My previous marriage to a BPD/NPD ended because she had an affair (I found out later, it wasn't the first).

I was feeling guilty, wondering what I did wrong, and my T pointed out, that while there are many legitimate reasons for deciding you don't want to be married to someone any longer, there is no legitimate reason to have an affair.
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 06:47:35 AM »

I could never forgive such a betrayal. When you are with someone and love them you make love to them. Not sex.

If the person can just sleep with someone else then they are not making love when they are with you, they see it as just sex, not matter what they say.

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the_way_back
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 06:53:57 AM »

Hot topic I guess

I've always been a very forgiving person. I really only see shades of grey.

The first real indication of her BPD was some years ago after I had caught her cheating. My reasoning would say, had I been the cheat yet knew It was a mistake and then got caught, I would have moved heaven and earth to let my partner know how sorry I was. I know if I'd ever cheated I'd feel guilty. I couldn't cope with that guilt. Funny, she's said that in the past "how could anyone cheat and live with that guilt?".

Anyway, she didn't d a damn thing to save anything. I had to. She withdrew from me for months afterwards. Physically and emotionally. And Iw as doing all the work.

Funny. The last two recycle attempts have boiled down to just that. Me doing all the work with no effort from her. Just words, no real action.

I think it can be forgivable, but I don't think if you cheat you have the right to expect that.
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 07:00:21 AM »

Hot topic I guess

I've always been a very forgiving person. I really only see shades of grey.

The first real indication of her BPD was some years ago after I had caught her cheating. My reasoning would say, had I been the cheat yet knew It was a mistake and then got caught, I would have moved heaven and earth to let my partner know how sorry I was. I know if I'd ever cheated I'd feel guilty. I couldn't cope with that guilt. Funny, she's said that in the past "how could anyone cheat and live with that guilt?".

Anyway, she didn't d a damn thing to save anything. I had to. She withdrew from me for months afterwards. Physically and emotionally. And Iw as doing all the work.

Funny. The last two recycle attempts have boiled down to just that. Me doing all the work with no effort from her. Just words, no real action.

I think it can be forgivable, but I don't think if you cheat you have the right to expect that.

I was ready to forgive my x BPD w for the infidelity and try and work it out when she hit me with another hook out of left field.  She said she wasn't going to stop seeing her boyfriend, and suggested we just have an open marriage.

I couldn't go that route.
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 07:04:29 AM »

Oh dear. But let her new boyfriend suggest that to her.

I doubt then she'd be find the idea any more favorable than you.
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 08:11:07 AM »

After we were married my ex once told me... .

"I'm not proud of it, I messed around on my ex, but I knew how to do it without getting caught."

Indeed a big Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  for me. But how was I to divorce over what she had done to her ex? So as expected she eventually had an affair on me, more than one, (I so wish I hadn't allowed her recycling after the first.)

Anyway, all without remorse, she could not relate, and oh the double standards! I could not color outside the lines by even speaking or looking at someone else without enduring her rage.

I was never unfaithful, all of the 18 years. Makes me  .
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the_way_back
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 08:32:36 AM »

Yup

Mine cheated on her ex as well. Long time ago now.

The guy she cheated with got the blame for it. These other guys often to. But to be honest, much as they aren't blameless, it's obvious who the common denominator is in all these situations.
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 08:44:31 AM »

My understanding of infidelity when it comes to pwBPD is that they use it as a tool to pull away from you, or fewer cases, pull you toward them more so you can be manipulated.

But mostly, it's to disengage from you in a very obvious manner.

My opinion is, no matter what comes out of their mouths, if they've cheated, it's over.  Because if they wanted to be with you and not drive a wedge into the relationship, they WOULD.  They wouldn't engage in something so damaging.

For me it's clear.  I'm no longer going to go chasing after someone who behaves this way.  Why would I WANT to be with them?  Just because they're running, in one way or another, does not mean you HAVE to chase them.
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 09:18:27 AM »

Yup absolutely. And chasing them just validates their behavior and gives them validation.

I remember one of her (female) friends jokingly asking if she was available. Her response was "get in the queue!" Bit of narcissism there methinks.
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 09:46:51 AM »

During times when we are fighting and really unhappy my uBPDbf of 15months has said numerous times that we better start making each other happier or else he or I would end up cheating on each other. When asked about that after he just says he's worried about me cheating on him if I'm unhappy, not really saying that he would do it to me. Hmmm...

Also, once during one of those big fights where you swear you are breaking up he said something along these lines "So are we done or not? You better make up your mind because if we are I'm going to go find someone else tomorrow because I can't be alone." (With anger and tears in his eyes). Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

Its really sad and I see it as a cry for help and a test to push me away and see if I will pull back. Problem is I don't work that way. When he pushes me away, I stay away, and he doesn't like that. He wants me to cry and ask him how could he do that. But there is a part of me that wonders if we did break up those times would he just go find someone the next day and really not even grieve our relationship? I think he might, which makes me wonder if he really does love me today. Scary.
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 10:09:20 AM »

I'm still learning myself

But in all my experience, I'd caution what he's saying about worrying that you will cheat.

Remember they project their fears about themselves on to others. I'm not saying this is explicitly the case, but you have to keep your mind open.

When I found out my ex was cheating towards the middle of last year I was absolutely flabbergasted. It wasn't her first affair. But it always seems to be exactly what you'd never expect. The worst case scenario. It seems it's often right where the money is.

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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 10:50:29 AM »

Mine once said, (after make-up sex) or hysterical bonding,... .

"Besides if you ever left me you would have to think about me doing that with someone else all the time."

Geeze.

After being finally caught in a 6 month affair, which only was stopping by his house after work for quickies, I asked her how she could do that. She said... .

"It wasn't an affair!"

Well WTH is one? My head was for sure in the FOG big time! Wow.

For my ex, I think it had more to do with her extreme NPD and the sense of entitlement. She always had to have the triangulation (read definition) to get her narcissistic supply of compliments about her looks and sexual skills, which could never be satisfied.

I'm pretty ashamed and embarassed that I endured all of that for so long. I didn't put up with that from my own Sons Mother when she messed around, it was over.

Gosh, I have a lot of looking inside myself to do. Wow.
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 12:54:41 PM »

Looking back I think she had not totally broken up with her last relationship when she started with me.  Of course fifteen years later she is back with him and does the same to me.  And yes all through out I was told about what would happen to me if I cheated, which I never did.  And of course now when you speak to her everybit of histort seems to be rewritten by her and she is trying to come out of this a helpless victim.  I think this is why they have few people they are close to because if anyone suspects there bs, the BPD just paints them black.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 01:28:13 PM »

I knew of one emotional affair that my uBPDx had before she broke up with me, and this was one she had admitted to me. She bad become enamored with this guy from work, who she claims "wasn't even really attractive" and was a recovering Heroin addict. When she explained to me why she became involved with this guy on an emotional level, you could HEAR how much she was idealizing a guy who she barely knew just in the way she described how the whole thing started. It sickened me honestly, and later on I realized that that is EXACTLY how she felt when she met me and how she idealized me as well. I was an anxiety ridden mess when I first started seeing my uBPDx, who is a Waif, and its no coincidence to me that she gravitated towards a recovering Heroin addict when she left me.

But, on top of what I DID know, there were also a bunch of guys that popped up on her facebook mere days after she left me that I never even knew she talked to. At this point, I expect that she had been flirting with guys behind my back for awhile before she broke up with me. Her father, who is a bipolar schizophrenic, cheated on her mother and devastated the whole family because of it. You would think that because of that she would never cheat on anyone after seeing what it did to her mother AND father (who felt extreme guilt over it), but instead it was as if she was acting out her parents relationship.

She had a boyfriend I believe about 4 or 5 months after leaving me and it wasn't even the guy she was talking to while she was still with me, that thought makes me sick to my stomach.
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2012, 03:28:41 PM »

Is infidelity indicative of a disorder?

No

Interestingly, in the book "Loving Someone with BPD" cheating is not even mentioned. 

If you think of the root cause for cheating - cheating is more of an NPD trait.
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2012, 03:58:55 PM »

People with BPD (vs. NPD) distrust a partner's fidelity (and their partner, in general) and often cheat as a means of *punishing* their partner, which causes their partner to leave, and reinforces their "unloveable" belief.  It's their self fulfilling prophecy at work.  

They've already written the ending to their story "I am unworthy of your love" and cheating controls the demolition.  

They cheat.  You leave.  The end.

If the cheating was done on an impulse, and they regret their decision, they may become deseperate to go back to their ex who largely defines their existence.  At this point the ending is up to us.
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2012, 07:25:56 PM »

Is an infidelity indicative of a disorder? Probably not; it's usually indicative of a relationship that's not working, and instead of fixing it within, someone tries to feel better or change it by going outside.

Is CHRONIC infidelity indicative of a disorder? Probably.
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 09:34:36 AM »

I think the disordered are disproportionately represented among the cheating population. A much higher % of cheaters are disordered, IMO, than the % of disordered in the general population.

So, in that sense , it is somewhat indicative of a likeliehood of being disordered.

When you read the stuff in websites devoted to those who cheat, where they share strategies and techniques they use to eluded detection etc, it is fairly evident that a great many of these folks are NPD.

The disdain they have for their spouses, and their complete lack of empathy just jumps out at you.

Also, they are very into the whole "soulmate" idealization deal such that they sound absolutely juvenile. Many are embarrassingly dim witted.
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 10:09:24 AM »

No, cheating is not indicative for this disorder. Cheating has become a way of life for many people even it is not asummed. It could be another discussion but returning on-topic the percent of cheaters among BPD is much smaller than "Non". Anyway, it is true that HF BPD can be involved more in cheating but the percent remains smaller.

People can have a lot of reasons to cheat, from validation to revenge, from boredom to impulsivity.  BPD usually cheats because of a "mix" of all of it. In some point cheating among BPD can be the result of their need to have a "seat belt" with another person and they use sex as a "tool" to obtain that.

We must understand that BPD are attracted by a special personality, perhaps such ours, but we must focus on our own problems to move on. Understanding the reason for BPD cheating is one but we must focus on our problems, to learn and find out why did we put ourselves in this position after all. They do what they do because WE permit it in a way or another.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 10:55:57 AM »

Hey Anra

I appreciate what you posted and have had a think. I don't personally think that cheating in and of itself is indicative of a disorder. Like I've said, it's more about a pattern of cheating. I have done no actual research on the following, but I'd have to say I'd be highly surprised to find out that instances of cheating were higher among mentally healthy individuals rather than those with narcissistic or borderline traits.

As far as permitting, yes I'd agree that we often enable them, sometimes unwittingly. But I highly doubt that anyone with BPD really feels permitted to cheat. I certainly never let my ex know in any way I'd be ok with it. Quite the contrary. Which ironically is one of the reasons I think she did it - precisely because she knew how much it would hurt me.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 10:56:51 AM »

My view is that it is impulse.

Am i right in thinking a majority of borderlines are very good looking? im not saying this is the case as there are many variations of BPD. But lets take the case of infidelity within a borderline.

They have the knowledge that their looks is power or so they feel.

Having little sense of self their looks becomes a dominant feature for them to work from to boost their ego, to boost their needs be forfilled.

Their looks are just an object to them that they feel they have power with.

They use this object (their looks) to attract other objects (replacements/affair partners).

Their looks or attractiveness to others becomes central to their own being giving them a feeling of a sense of self. But in reality they are kidding themselves. They cant really believe for the rest of their lives that their looks and only their looks will carry them through all that life throws at them.

But they do belive it because they dont have a different mindset and no core beliefs.

They are the object of their own desires, they want to be the object of others desires.

Well they do say 'treat others like youd like to be treated yourself', so go figure, they are an object to themselves, they see and treat others as objects so in return they need to be treated as objects to feel any sense of self or worth.

But that isnt healthy or right. I can see that now and certainly wont be travelling that same path again in allowing anyone to treat me as an object of either their desires or hatred.

I am a human being and deserve to be treated with love and respect, not played with like a toy by an adult acting like a 4 year old.
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2012, 11:32:21 AM »

Its an interesting view. It has been suggested that they are often good-looking. I'm not sure really. All I know is my ex was ok looking. Nothing special really now that the rose tinted glasses have come off. And at the rate she piles on the make up her looks wont last too long. And the stress and drama can age you very quickly as well.

I'm not sure about this one really. I think it's more a case of they can be very manipulative and appear enigmatic rather than they are all generally physically appealing. My ex is in her mid 20's and my replacement is in his mid 40's. If she was all that, I'm sure she'd be with someone closer to her own age rather than some guy who simply wants to brag about having a 20 something girlfriend.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 11:42:49 AM »

I hope this isn't too off topic, but I have a question related to this and I would love to hear from all of you out there who have been through this. Like many others, my H is what I like to refer to as "paranoid". Reading all the posts on here about cheating, it makes me wonder, is he "paranoid" or his he "guilty". You know the saying about if they are acusing they must be guilty? I have been accused of cheating throughout our entire 7 year relationship. I have been followed, only to be found exactly where I said I would be, and ALONE. The other night I had to work an hour late. I called H and let him know. After returning home, I was sniffed... .yes thats right, my H did not try to hide it or anything, he hugged me and clearly sniffed my neck. I asked (without though or I would have said something else) "why are you sniffing me?" he says, "no reason"... .So what do you all think? 
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2012, 11:50:24 AM »

Eeeep!

Difficult one. Even though my ex was a prolific cheat, it is something she would accuse me of regularly. It's wrong if you do it, but if they do it it's entirely justifiable and you probably deserved it.   

I'm not sure what to advise. Hopefully one of the more experienced members can help you but, and don't let this worry you, my gut tells me you may be right. I have read that they'll accuse you of doing what they're scared of being caught doing.

Like I said though, I'm in no position really to advise.
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2012, 11:52:15 AM »

Well I never really worried about it too much, frankly I would probably be greatful if he did, because then I would have what I call, "my reason", but recently he said something to the effect of if I ever cheated he could forgive me. I followed this up with, "if you ever cheated on me, that would be that, theres no forgiveness"... .he was a little shocked to say the least.
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2012, 12:09:43 PM »

@the_way_back

We enable them, of course, because we become ""parents"" in their eyes and we just like this position. A parent spoil his child and so on.

""The love of their life"" become ""a parental love from us to them"". It is the moment when we assume the caregiver role. Ironic, BPD usually cheat when they feel safe and loved but not in a way as we want to love them. For us is adult love, for them is just the way a parent loves his child. As a joke, I dont feel sorry for my mother when I have sex with someone else:). This is the way they think. It is not a ""cheating"" as we see, in fact, in their eyes, is not cheating at all, is more likely a ""validation"" of them been powerfull (with our help, of course). They are just children with adult means at their disposal. As our love evolves they are confident as it happened to us in late adolescence. They tend to leave ""the home"" and become independent people, hating those who try to stop them.

So, the problem is not cheating but our kind of love for them. Often, we tend to see them as children, spoil them. It is wrong, very wrong, as wrong as a real parent spoil his child. Not requiring strong limits for them is the worst thing we can do. Anyway, there is another problem and this is OUR problem; it seems we like them because they are BPD. This is the reason we must  focuse on ourselves, not on them and not on their actions. Because we dont need to repeat our past, do we?

P.S. Sorry for my English. I am tired and English is not my first language:)
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2012, 12:18:31 PM »

Please don't apologise. I take your point and it's a very interesting way of looking at it. It certainly clarifies what you meant in your initial post and it does make sense to me.

Whichever way you, I or any one else here looks at it though, why would anyone want this in their life? Surely we deserve better.

I've never known what it feels like to have a partner stay faithful and have eyes for only me. I'd trade a winning lottery ticket to find out.
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2012, 12:23:33 PM »

@the_way_back

Exactly, this is the point, not their reasons or their actions. They were in our lives because we have allowed it. The question is : why them and not someone who deservs our love or faith? Why that ""kind"" of them? ""The ball is on our side, not theirs""
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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 01:12:42 AM »

My uBPDxgf was hypersexual, always asking me to show her porn I liked, studying me I now think. About 6 months to a year she started to talk of getting a prostitute in, then talk of sex clubs, I said no but boundaries are abuse to her I realise now. If I talked of anything like this she was deadly worried, all about her. But she kept this stuff well hidden, just testing me I realise, when she realised I didn't want this she just kept it hidden. But now I can see she would very subtlety drop hints to me and loved it. Only now have I remembered the odd remark here and there that now makes sense if she was having affairs. If I questioned her she went the other way to keep me in the dark. I kept up very imaginative sex to please her as I knew she loved it. Positions, attitude etc but I noticed aggressive sex was her real thing so did a lot of stuff I wasn't particularly proud of, very abusive to her. Never had tender loving sex, zero intimacy. I taught her a new sex act, just as a gift to her really, and when she learnt it she said'Wow, I've got a new thing I can do' like a trick. Sad that I stayed so long, just wanted love really. It was all so mechanical, all of it, the conversations, the sex, the drinking, her work, her Xs, her friends (all pretend RSs, only found out after from them, just colleges), bad mornings, the up and down moods, boring really... .but the chaotic mess, intensity and provoking gave it some feeling of being more human. Think this is why they create chaos, to ape deeper feelings other people have. Their emotionality is skin deep, it changes from down to up so fast. Nothing really
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