Are they liars or just delusional?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mother's Day ended with me calling 911 for help with my BPDh who was sitting in his car, in the garage, windows down, motor running door closed, drinking wine. Sweet.  Luckily I had just put the kids to bed so they hopefully didn't hear the chaos downstairs as 3 cruisers came and apprehended him under the mental health act and took him to the hospital.

I have to say, I was a little nervous waiting until the police showed up as he had been cutting himself and after I talked him out of the car and into the house he grabbed a kitchen knife and said he was going to kill himself.  Just for a flash of a second I thought he might come at me so I kept the kitchen island then diningroom table between us.  Very un-nerving.

Here's the thing, and I know, I should just stop trying to 'figure him out' but I'm so curious as to your more experienced opinions.  When he was released from the hospital the next day, he was very very calm.  I guess it's like coming down from a high, all that adreneline from the night before.  He said the on-call psychiatrist interviewed him for an hour and a half.  She said this was the result of a build up of stress from having 2 small children, losing his parents over the course of 3 years and recently retiring (yes, retired early) and having no network of friends to talk to.  She also didn't think he needed medication, at this time.  She felt that he should go back to his counsellor (whom after 7 sessions said he was on the right track and just to come back a couple times a year for a tune up).

This is my question:  is he lying to the dr and therapist about what is really going on? or is his thinking so distorted that he really really believes that this only a little hiccup in his normal life?  I've been living with his episodes for years and only recently have plucked up the courage to call 911 for help. 

The reaction of the therapists lead me to think they are either really bad and don't know how to ask the right questions to get the truth or he just is totally dilusional.

Are BPD's just such accomplished liars or do they really think this is normal?

I've finally contacted a lawyer to get my options sorted out.  I guess there is just no hope in him doing the hard work to improve his life and that of his family given that the reaction of the therapists seems so , well, almost casual.  I'm so so sad but I just can't stay in an abusive crazy house like this. 

sorry if this has been a ramble but I've lost all faith in mental health care professionals.

[trying_hard]

Mother's Day ended with me calling 911 for help with my BPDh who was sitting in his car, in the garage, windows down, motor running door closed, drinking wine. Sweet.  Luckily I had just put the kids to bed so they hopefully didn't hear the chaos downstairs as 3 cruisers came and apprehended him under the mental health act and took him to the hospital.

I have to say, I was a little nervous waiting until the police showed up as he had been cutting himself and after I talked him out of the car and into the house he grabbed a kitchen knife and said he was going to kill himself.  Just for a flash of a second I thought he might come at me so I kept the kitchen island then diningroom table between us.  Very un-nerving.

Here's the thing, and I know, I should just stop trying to 'figure him out' but I'm so curious as to your more experienced opinions.  When he was released from the hospital the next day, he was very very calm.  I guess it's like coming down from a high, all that adreneline from the night before.  He said the on-call psychiatrist interviewed him for an hour and a half.  She said this was the result of a build up of stress from having 2 small children, losing his parents over the course of 3 years and recently retiring (yes, retired early) and having no network of friends to talk to.  She also didn't think he needed medication, at this time.  She felt that he should go back to his counsellor (whom after 7 sessions said he was on the right track and just to come back a couple times a year for a tune up).

This is my question:  is he lying to the dr and therapist about what is really going on? or is his thinking so distorted that he really really believes that this only a little hiccup in his normal life?  I've been living with his episodes for years and only recently have plucked up the courage to call 911 for help. 

The reaction of the therapists lead me to think they are either really bad and don't know how to ask the right questions to get the truth or he just is totally dilusional.

Are BPD's just such accomplished liars or do they really think this is normal?

I've finally contacted a lawyer to get my options sorted out.  I guess there is just no hope in him doing the hard work to improve his life and that of his family given that the reaction of the therapists seems so , well, almost casual.  I'm so so sad but I just can't stay in an abusive crazy house like this. 

sorry if this has been a ramble but I've lost all faith in mental health care professionals.

[goinbonkers]

its part delusional, part distorted thinking, part dissociation, part made up (lies).

lots of therapists don't really know how to recognize a BPD.  it usually takes some time even for the one's who are experienced.  you have a lot more exposure than them so try not to compare yourself.  i am sure if any therapist was around as much as you, they would see the truth clear as day.

[Empty]

My BPDw has tried to enlist me in getting her out of the mental health ward when she has been taken there after her suicide attempts. I never have and never will enable her this way. She is very very convincing when she wants her own way and for the mental health spotlight to be taken off her. Sometimes it seems like i'm the only one that can see the charade she is playing.

The last time she was taken there, by the police after carving herself up with a knife in a motel room, the T called and told me he was releasing her. I spent 20 minutes arguing with him and asked him if he had no morals as he was putting the aggressor back with the victims. I may as well have said nothing as his last words were; ' We don't have the funding or the rooms to deal with everyone who comes in the door. Besides you are lucky she only does this occassionally, I have some people being brought in here 3 and 4 times a week. Maybe you should get her to seek some help once she's home.' and he hung up on me.

I left the house at that point and later found out that she was very calm and had told people that i must be angry with her as she only had to go to hospital for a minor thing and i had refused to pick her up. i was like WTH? And she just pushed that line at me as well saying she didn't know what my problem was. When I pointed out the scars, healing cuts, and stitches her response was that she was just a little clumsy and i was making things up. When pushed and under pressure though she will admit to self harm but not to anyone who has the power to do anything about her BPD.

[bunnyrabit]

I think they are more like compulsive liars. As in they know they're lying but they can't help themselves. Also for BPDs feelings are facts, so it's very easy for them to create a whole nother reality in which they can assume a managable (victim) role.

You see, if they would admit to their wrongdoings or shortcomings it would mean complete annihilation of their fragile ego.

My ex, for example, when confronted with rock hard evidence of her cheating (yes, actual footage) she just made up a new story. She was now being drugged by me and then offered to other men for raping. And this is as much responsability as she can take for it. She can only be the victim. When I push her, ever so gently, in the role of the horrible cheater that she has been, she panics and feels like she is being destroyed.

So do yourself a favour, try not to compare the behavior and words of a BPD with those of a sane person. They are in fact just brain spasms and very underdeveloped coping mechanisms that are completely outside of the will of the inflicted person. Kind of like someone with Tourettes syndrome who just blurts out insults. I'm sure you wouldn't take their words seriously, it would actually make you seem just as crazy.

[2010]

Trying hard and Empty, both of you are in similar positions, so I hope this post clears up a bit of the confusion for you.

People with stress have many ways to cope, but much of our ideas of reference come from childhood. With BPD, there is sheer exhaustion due to inconsistencies in childhood that are confusing and scary. The result is a pattern of behavior that is similar to shell shock. Since a child doesn't have the luxury of stopping what they are doing and demanding answers of the adults around them- they formulate ways to escape the stress. This fragmentization is what leads to Borderline disorder.

As the child grows, the adult ego state begins to regress, almost as though it remains in a frozen state of arrested development because of the shock of trauma. Internally, the adult has this punitive, harsh dialogue running that puts a negative spin on self direction. This is called the "punitive parent" state and it is the voice of the harsh parent that limits their free will.  This is the adult interpretation of their parent that scolds them in their thoughts. It is the parent that scapegoats them and punishes them for their perceived failures, just as they felt in childhood. This voice plays on a never ending loop. (Some Borderlines make the analogy that they are driving a car but are unable to steer it due to the punitive parent being in charge.) The punitive parent is very, very unhappy, so you can see how this is masochistic tool for self flagellation.

What happens then is the adult state believes the voice and regresses to a child state that consists of two polarities; one is a lonely, frightened child and one is a very angry, abusive child who wants to fight back.  These child states swing back and forth in emotional states that arise (are triggered) from the fears of being abandoned or of being annihilated (overwhelmed and consumed as though they do not exist.)

Most of the time these states are hidden because they are occurring in an adult human being- but they are triggered in close attachments. These close attachments (marriage, romantic attachments) are with people who witness the swinging pendulum behaviors that move back and forth in highly emotional states because of closeness. Outside of close attachments, a wax figure is put into presentation. This wax figure is zombie like, very calm and extremely flat in emotion.  This adult state is called the "detached protector," and it's job is to wall off any emotions.

The detached protector is the adult that you see visually calm after the angry rage (which is really an emotional cleansing.) The detached protector was created to protect the child from feeling. Usually there were implicit rules about what a child could or could not say in the family and therefore, feel. The child gets the message; _

[Yamaha06]

My BP GF would never get help I asked her over and over. She tried to say I need the help. Your the one who crazy. After two and half years with her. I did start to question myself. As for lies she would rather lie then tell the truth. When you caught her in a lie. She would become enraged. How dare you question me. She was very bad with money. The number one thing with her is she made poor decisions. She never got close to making a good decision. All her kids were the same way. I have done well in business make good decision after decision. I truly felt bad for her. But I feel she thinks she superior to everyone. She demands everything but contrubutes nothing. Her kids are exactaly the same way. I have said many times. They are future BP. You could talk to her and her kids. If you drew a line and said what she or her kids get out of any communication to change behavior. I would have to say none. They dont want to change. None of them work. They have zero responsibilty and respect and they use others for what they want and need. Why work. Very selfish humans.

[SunflowerFields]

So if by chance you renew your attachment to each other, the detached protector will let the abandoned child resurface.  The abandoned child makes people want to rescue but naturally utilizes guilt in order to falsely attach to them.

What happens when the other party (non) no longer wishes to rescue and throws the ball of responsibility back to the borderline?

[Empty]

So if by chance you renew your attachment to each other, the detached protector will let the abandoned child resurface.  The abandoned child makes people want to rescue but naturally utilizes guilt in order to falsely attach to them.

What happens when the other party (non) no longer wishes to rescue and throws the ball of responsibility back to the borderline?

That's a bloody good question and I await the answers of others.


My experience is that the BPD creates a situation that compels us to respond and perhaps 'rescue' them.

[SunflowerFields]

No one can compel you to do something you've set your mind you no longer wish to do.

My experience so far has been that they will then look to find someone who will rescue.

If we still have emotional investment, it takes stamina not to be ruled by fear that if you don't step in, someone else will.

I wonder what the psychological state is with Borderlines is at that point.  

[yianks69]

What happens when the other party (non) no longer wishes to rescue and throws the ball of responsibility back to the borderline?

This is the point when they start painting you black as you are no longer:

1.   a supply

2.   someone to vent off their inner terrible world

[yianks69]

I wonder what the psychological state is with Borderlines is at that point.  

If you take into consideration the four states that the pwBPD continuously and interchangeably live by, then their psychological state at this point and in any other point is terrible.

This is not a way to live and enjoy life. It_

[Yamaha06]

The only thing I will ever resuce again is a puppy. 

[brknhrtdmom]

Just as I was starting to feel sorry for DS's SO and the life she must have been subjected to by HER momster.  I have tried to become close, I have tried to include her and make her feel a part of this family.  Only to be attacked again and again and yet, again.   I am attacked mostly because she's too afraid to attack the person responsible, her own mother.  It also explains why she never goes after the men in our family, just me and recently, my female cousin.  My heart aches for the child, for what was done to and what wasn't done for the child.  But, until her momster is out of the picture and not living a block away and involved in every aspect of her life, there is no chance for us to have a relationship.  She is the master puppeteer and when the outbursts are aimed at me, I now realize from this post, they aren't.  Still, it is one very disturbing world in which they are living, and I can't allow my family to be pulled into the swirling whirlpool.  Oh my, the horrible things some people do to innocent children.  But DH keeps saying there's nothing I can do, I can't help someone who won't acknowledge they need help, and I hate to turn my back on anyone, but I just feel she's a lost cause.  Goes against the very grain of my values and morals as a mother, but I'm afraid I simply can't help this child.  Breaks my heart... .but, thank you.  

[bluesclues]

"Are they liars or just delusional?"

Both.

My ex was both a skillful and frequent liar, which he could not deny having the capacity for knowing that he was doing it... .and had an entirely distorted version of reality.

He would re-invent and rearrange a series of events leading up to something he had said or done that was a mistake/wrong/inappropriate/abusive that made his actions out to be a (played-down) reaction to the victimization he felt he was going through. He truly believed that he was never at fault for any of the horrible things he said or did and that even if he had done/said something wrong/inappropriate/abusive it was most certainly only him defending himself against the unfairness of being prosecuted for things *I* said/did/felt that he had entirely made up in his head to justify it all.

He really believed in his delusional little world that he invented to protect his fragile little ego.

and

He really lied knowingly and purposefully.

[gina louise]

AMAZING to get a look inside how the disorder works and makes the person react/act.

very helpful.

I love my H and I can tell he's struggling-and his lashing out has very little to do with me.

BUT it FEELS like it's on me when he directs his rages AT me. that's hard to ignore or dismiss.

and I never see that behavior directed at ANY others!

GL

[goinbonkers]

The only thing I will ever resuce again is a puppy. 

Good one!

[goinbonkers]

What happens when the other party (non) no longer wishes to rescue and throws the ball of responsibility back to the borderline?

This is the point when they start painting you black as you are no longer:

1.   a supply

2.   someone to vent off their inner terrible world

and that's exactly what happened to me.  and then she left me.  i just got tired of hearing about her terrible imperfect world day in and day out.  it does get old after years and years.  i don't mind anyone whining about whatever, but one day you have to flippin do something about it though.  whining alone is never the solution.

the example i gave to my T was, i don't mind hearing about your car has a flat tire, but one day you're gonna have to either put air in the tire or shut the hell up.

[goinbonkers]

My BP GF would never get help I asked her over and over. She tried to say I need the help. Your the one who crazy. After two and half years with her. I did start to question myself. As for lies she would rather lie then tell the truth. When you caught her in a lie. She would become enraged. How dare you question me. She was very bad with money. The number one thing with her is she made poor decisions. She never got close to making a good decision. All her kids were the same way. I have done well in business make good decision after decision. I truly felt bad for her. But I feel she thinks she superior to everyone. She demands everything but contrubutes nothing. Her kids are exactaly the same way. I have said many times. They are future BP. You could talk to her and her kids. If you drew a line and said what she or her kids get out of any communication to change behavior. I would have to say none. They dont want to change. None of them work. They have zero responsibilty and respect and they use others for what they want and need. Why work. Very selfish humans.

you have precisely described my stbxBPDw and all of her kids to an exact t.  i sure hope you are not dating her.  haha.

[goinbonkers]

Anyway after one visit to her new T she is already pulling away from her next appointment. Usually she lasts anywhere from 3 to 6 visits before she pulls back from therapy. Same old broken record really.

my stbxBPDw did the same exact thing.  

you get all happy that they start therapy, but then they don't hang in there long enough for it to be effective.

or they try to convince (or do convince) the therapist into believing nothing is wrong with them.  that's actually easy to do because they can easily put on a fantasy act within that mere one hour session.  

no counseling in the world will help anyone if they are not being honest with the therapist.

[the_way_back]

I kinda feel bad now about some of the things I've said.

So, to over generalise, are we basically saying that it's actually their parent(s) they are angry with?

It all does throw a light on a very dark area of the condition for me. Thanks again.  

And to the OP, are they liars or just delusional? The answer is yes - to both. They're whole reality is a delusion. It just doesn't exist in any real tangible way. So if in your world the sky is pink, you're going to say the sky is pink and everyone will call you a liar.

[the_way_back]

I have young children with mine. She was barking something or other at me tonight as I dropped them off. Just reading these posts have helped me gain a little more insight and perspective. But how to put it in to practical use (especially under circumstances where some contact is inevitable i.e. having children together) is something I'd love to hear (read) someone elaborate on.

[brknhrtdmom]

On_the_Way_Back-generalize?  I don't know.  I'm new to this.  But, IMO, and in my case, it definitely goes back to DS SO's momster.  When grandson was a month old, they lived nearby.  She never called me, never asked me to babysit, always took baby to her momster's house, where sister was detoxing.  Horrible atmosphere for a baby.  However, one day, out of the blue, she called and said her momster and sis were nearby and could they come watch our Christmas videos from when DS and brothers were little?  I was so taken aback, I didn't know how to reply.  I allowed them into my home.  I had had little to no contact with the elder momster and sister, and as they sat in my home and watched, the light went on!  See, momster, this is what I can have... .look, isn't this wonderful, aren't you happy I have attached myself to this?  Trying to garner her attention, approval and love.  And I could see the child in her, seeking approval, seeking love for what she had accomplished... .I knew at that moment we were sunk and momster was the problem.  It was a sickening feeling and the creepiest thing that has EVER happened to me in my life!     We don't even watch our own Christmas videos, why would she want her mother and sis to?  Weird, just weird.  Mom and Sis then moved when DS and SO did, just picked up and moved 500 miles away... .Not normal by any means.  Just sayin!

So, I guess in reply to are they liars or just delusional?  Both... their delusional world makes them be liars to survive.  It's a vicious cycle and an awful life to live.

[gina louise]

So in my  u BPDH's world:

He is mr wonderful and has committed no evils (oh except *raising his voice*)

has had no inappropriate female friends

has had no emotional/physical affairs

always keeps his promises, and says what he means

takes me to the most marvelous places

plans activities that I *should* enjoy, but I always ruin.

never ever insulted me, my kids or my family

is a bountiful provider with NO strings attached

was always and ONLY reacting to my continual negativity, whining, lamenting, btching , nagging, complaining, attacking of his perfect character and his perfect friends.

that's HIS reality.

Our real life together is something far different!

I can see that he treats me like a composite of his Mother (sweet, kind gentle and submissive) and his Father... .(violent, hyper-critical and dismissive-abusive to kids and Mom)

When I refuse to react with any violence-NO raised voice or acting out on my part-it seems to make HIM worse in his rage! it's as if he intends to provoke a similar reaction in me.

When he rages he is a violent bully like his Father-completely.

So... .is he screaming at me b/c as a child he could never scream at his bully of a Dad?

In calmer times he tells me he needs me as I am a nurturing, soothing person for him.

I am kind, supportive and empathic. Ha-ha I am Neosporin for BPD.   

Yet, when he perceives something from me as critical he goes batsht crazy. no joke.

then I am more like battery acid.


GL

[trying_hard]

Thank you all for your insight.  Yes, it is hard with 2 children but I am most definitely planning my escape.  I have to tread very carefully as he can be so vindictive and cruel for sports sake.   It feels pretty dishonest of me but I have to be really focused on my goal which is safety and a calm home environment for my girls and me.  I know when i finally break the news that I'm going to live apart there will be drama galore and promises to go to therapy and do whatever it takes but I've so often heard this before but I'm just not buying it.  He's had many opportunities to get it together and seek help for a balanced life but I guess he just won't or can't but I can.

[notetoself]

Wait, what? A suicide attempt is a "normal" reaction to stress, children and retirement? How can an ER Psych be that incompetent. Was it a psychiatric social worker? This really makes me mad.

But wait... .he could be absolutely lying. Maybe they just had to release him, but they gave him a detailed follow-up plan that included a complete eval. There is just no way of knowing.

That's the thing... .we have to pause and remember not to take the pwPBD at face-value.

[notetoself]

I mean, maybe the release plan included his going to a psych for a complete evaluation. Sorry, wrote that in a bit of a frenzy.

But please take care. This sounds like an utterly heartbreaking and traumatic situation. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[doubleAries]

My opinion?

Sounds like, yes, he thinks he is normal and this was just a little hiccup, and that he's LYING about what the doctors said. Pretty typical BPD to lie about what the doctor said--because how are YOU gonna know? Confidentiality allows for the BPD to manipulate the whole thing to their own favor. There's a website called BPD Secrets. On there, I read a post by a BPD who said she was lying to her doctor AND lying to others about what her doctor told her. I mean, if she's admitting that she's lying (I think the post is called "lying to my therapist" then she's not delusional, is she? She KNOWS she's lying. I've seen other posts on other sites where the BPD is laughing about lying, and saying manipulating others is fun "because I'm so good at it". It absolutely boggled my mind!

[Darknightx13]

Based on experiences with my upwBPD, I'd also have to say BOTH in terms of answering if they are delusional or liars.  In the grand scheme, it mostly comes down to delusion, or perhaps more appropriately, distortion, however lying tends to become a part of the mix for what I might break into 2 categories.

1.  She lies because she NEEDS to lie in order to feed her distortions

2.  She lies to test me

I find the lying to be a device the she uses to check in with me to see how far I'm willing to bend or go along with whatever she thinks.  Small things, like lying about whether or not she ate anything during the day when I'm POSITIVE she didn't and she says she did, and then if I don't believe her she uses it as ammunition to make it seem like I don't have her back or that I'm doing something wrong because I don't "trust" her.  This is very often used as a way to take focus off the real issues.

The distortions, on the other hand, are the central part of the BPDs world.  My girlfriend's world is different from the real world that I (and other nons) are living in.  She isn't lying when she's behaving or saying things based on her distortions because those thoughts/words/feelings are completely REAL to her.  If they weren't then she wouldn't be BPD and things like reason and being rational would be enough to change the tide of things.  I've known this for a long time and I'm STILL stuck in the FOG, denial and trying to "work it out"  I've been in therapy for more than 2.5 years because of this relationship and we recently started talking to a couples therapist together, but the hope for improvement in dwindling.  I'm in the middle of being painted black right now because of what happened yesterday in our session and even still I'm searching for a way for none of what's happening to be true.

Her delusions are so concrete to the point that she believes I'm the crazy one.  None of it is easy to accept, but in a way it's easier to deal sometimes when you realize just how distorted this person's "reality" is.  If this person was just compulsively lying all of the time, they'd be much easier to expose as frauds but you can't expose a person as a liar when they're not really lying.  She's just living her life according to how she feels and her reality is molded around her feelings.  When there are no facts to back up her feelings, "facts" are invented, not as lies, but as part of the reality she believes to support her feelings.

At least this is the way I'm experiencing this.

[PDQuick]

Interesting thread guys.  

I want to remind everyone that we have guidelines that prohibit calling out specific members or staff on the board. This rule is in place to keep discussions collegial and inclusive.

4.3 Exclusive or Cliquish Content: Cliques can form within the boundaries of any large group - being rewarding to those that are included, and at the same time, intimidating or off-putting to those that are not. In a community where there is a constant flow of emotionally injured new members, many suffering from diminished self esteem, we encourage the established members to be ambassadors of good will and reach out to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible. Appearances of exclusivity should be avoided, such as name callouts, insider topics, insider jokes, threads targeted at friends, etc. Threads and questions should not be directed to specific members or groups.

If anyone want to discuss this in further detail, and we welcome that, please file a clarification request here:

bpdfamily.com/discussions/

[trying_hard]

Wait, what? A suicide attempt is a "normal" reaction to stress, children and retirement? How can an ER Psych be that incompetent. Was it a psychiatric social worker? This really makes me mad.

That was exactly my reaction.  Not that I'm an expert in drugs and medication but it seems like something to help him level-off a bit so he could really get down to serious talk-therapy might have been useful but, given as I really don't know what he told her or what she actually said I will give the Dr. the benefit of the doubt and I did check, she is a Dr., not a social worker.