Pendente Lite decision: Was this a blessing or not?

[Forestaken]

Completed the Pendente Lite for (uBPD + dOCD)w:

• I have exclusive use of the house and car.



• She will be getting (from me) $1000/mo for the next 3 months.



• She has to get a job.



• Court in 3 months

D18 lives with me.  How did I do?

[ForeverDad]

I think you did well for a first step, the move-out went better than most that are described here.

As for the expense, I guess it's affordable for you?  That may be an indication of your maximum financial exposure long term, it may be less once she finds work.  (Beware that she may claim she can't find work.  Plan a response for that claim.)  She may be allowed to enter career training or a two year college course, though don't suggest it unless necessary.  For example, if she claims she can't find a job and then wants high support continued, then it might be a good idea to say you'll agree if she promptly enrolls in career training and then reduces when completed (or two years, whichever comes sooner since she may sabotage her schooling/career to be a perpetual student or unemployed) and then and long term support ends sooner than it would otherwise.

If she doesn't drive I hope she gets an apartment near her work and stores or near public transportation.

Since yours was a long term marriage, your post-marriage support may be longer.  A lot depends on your state's guidelines.  I believe Texas and a few other states limit length of alimony to just a few years specificly for transition and training.

[rogerroger]

Sounds like "so far so good" to me.

[sanemom]

I think you did really well!  It sounds like your judge wants her to get her life together ASAP.

[Forestaken]

Thanks

my S2bx has a college degree.

The $1000/mo will be finanically painful but I feel with a lot of cost cutting it can be done (that goodness it comes when I don't have to run the heat or AC or when my kids were starting their college semester).

I'm looking for a second job to cover the expense and to show there is work out there.

What do you think?

[ForeverDad]

my S2bx has a college degree.

I'm looking for a second job to cover the expense and to show there is work out there.

What do you think?

With the disclaimer that I don't know your precise financial circumstances:  No, don't do that unless absolutely necessary.  If you have to find a second job then that means you're paying her too much now.  If you do get a second job then the court will decide on support, whether long term or short term, on the then-current income and she'd likely end up getting more from you than if you don't get an extra job.  Why should you be putting pressure on yourself and thereby be letting her off the hook?

Also, every time support is discussed in court, you need to present your case that her income potential needs to be "imputed" in the calculations.  If the court still wants to set it at zero reflecting reality, at least try to get them to use something, wouldn't even the minimum wage levels be better than nothing?

Remember, you still have expenses, primarily supporting the children.  She comes second to that.  Yes, she's got to be somewhere there in the calculations, but increasing your income right now will hurt you in the support calculations.

How was the $1000 set?  Who put that amount forward?  If you, were you being a Nice Guy?  If so, be aware that often we sabotage ourselves when we try to be overly fair, overly nice, overly whatever.  Yes, do what is required by the court, but realize that going above and beyond the call of duty probably will be ignored by the court.  Devote that time and energy to yourself and your parenting.

[Forestaken]

The judge set the amount. OK no job thx

Here's reader's digest version of the hearing (set for 30 minutes)

0-13th minute: Her L being chewed out for blowing her first pendent lite case (another judge) her L set the date & missed the hearing.

My s2bx, her sister (for her) and I testified.

My s2bx did ok, her sister was too fiery for the judge and he warned her to be factual.

I testified but I couldn't state my gross pay, I knew my net.

When her L asked a question "that she cooked, cleaned and scrubbed my floors," I countered with "no sir, I did that plus practices, music lesson, homework and parent teacher conferences"

Finally

Judge said "I can't tell who is telling the truth here! $500 on the 1st and 15th! and she needs to get a job."

[Forestaken]

Going to court again in Oct,

What does this mean?

"On Oct ##, 2012, the undersigned shall move this Honorable Court for Hearing and entry of Decree Pendente Lite from the hearing on September ##, 2012, for sanctions and Attorneys fees and for such further and other relief as in equity may seem meet or the nature of this cause deems just."

[Matt]

I think it's a big win to get her out of the house, and a big win to keep D18 with you.

She has to get a job - or what?  Without an "or what" I'm not sure that means anything.  Be prepared for her to say she can't find one - then what will you do?

I agree with FD about you getting a second job.  That will show you are able to support her and D18, and that you care more about making money than being with D18.  Spend your time instead by helping D18 in whatever ways you can - education, career, etc.  Show that your household works well.

Your last post - where did you find that?  Did your lawyer file that or did the other side?  Ask your lawyer what it means.  If your ex filed it, it looks to me like she is saying, "The pendente lite decision should be set aside and Forestaken should pay my legal fees."

[Forestaken]

I talked w/ my L. 

Court date#1

The court order gave me the house.

Court date#2

Her L says the judge gave my s2bx $1K/mo + the house.

My L says the judge gave my s2bx $1K/mo. No decision on the house.

My L will not agree to the order drawn up by her L (giving her the house +$1K)

Her L hired a transcriptist, but has not sent my L a copy.

Court date#3 next week (a cluster)

BTW: Thx for the advice of no second job.

[Matt]

Make sure your lawyer is doing his job and not depending on the other lawyer to do it for him.  You can't trust your wife's lawyer to protect your interests.

If the judge is issuing verbal orders, you should be able to ask for those orders to be written.  Have your lawyer say, "Your Honor, to make sure your order is clear, we need it to be in writing."  It would be unprofessional for the judge to refuse that.

If things are being decided between the lawyers, with no judge present, make sure you know exactly what is going on.  Don't let your lawyer agree to anything behind your back.  Make sure he gets your approval before sending anything to the other side.  There should be no verbal agreements between the lawyers - that leaves you open to manipulation by your wife's lawyer (and maybe yours too).

The best process is for the other side to make you a written offer;  then you either agree and it's done, or you make a counter-offer in writing.  If you can't get a good agreement that way, then file a motion with the court and let the judge decide.

[ForeverDad]

My final decree was like that, we agreed to the terms on the record before the judge, then one of the lawyers typed it up and contacted the other lawyer with the text to present to the judge at the next appearance for signing by all.  I believe your court expects the two lawyers to come to agreement on the written language and terms and then present the paperwork to the court for everyone to sign and be ordered, right?

If this was an agreement, she can possibly contest it and you'll have to dicker in court all over again.  Until it's signed and sealed, it may be up in the air, depends on whether your court will view the verbal statements before the court as binding.  If it was a court decision, then I don't see how she can wriggle out of it.

My court allowed me to ask for and receive a recording of the conversation on flash drive or writable CD.  So I was able to listen to it.  Ordering a transcript takes a few days or longer and isn't free.  Whatever works for you.  I wouldn't bend on this, make sure what really happened in court.

My L will not agree to the order drawn up by her L (giving her the house +$1K).

Scrutinize all details in an order written by the other lawyer, who knows what they'll try to sneak in.  For that matter, scrutinize your own lawyer's proposed texts.

Her L hired a transcriptist, but has not sent my L a copy.

Well, don't you think that if her L confirms it's not in their favor they'll drag their feet hoping to get a concession of some sort anyway from you?  In my county, the transcriber I used sent me a copy but only as a courtesy, the transcript was automatically filed with the court.  Check with your court clerk to see if a copy was filed at the court.

[Forestaken]

My final decree was like that, we agreed to the terms on the record before the judge, then one of the lawyers typed it up and contacted the other lawyer with the text to present to the judge at the next appearance for signing by all.  I believe your court expects the two lawyers to come to agreement on the written language and terms and then present the paperwork to the court for everyone to sign and be ordered, right?

Yes that is what is going on. Since her L did the petition. My L want her L to do the work, charging her, my L reviews it first.  My L is agressive and I have no complaints. However, I know "you get what you inspect not what you expect".

Ordering a transcript takes a few days or longer and isn't free.  Whatever works for you.  I wouldn't bend on this, make sure what really happened in court.)

The first copy is expensive (her L will charge her) and the second copy is half of the first (for my L). Since her L brought the recorder. My L thinks her L should be providing the transcript.

Check with your court clerk to see if a copy was filed at the court.

I asked my L about this, and he says not to do it since her L was suppose to provide my L with a copy.  There is something about judge's getting angry with Ls that plays against their client's interest.  (That's what I sense).  They don't like to Ls wasting the court's time. 

[Forestaken]

Update:Going to court tomorrow.

Got an email from my L talking about my expenses. I cannot include any of my adult children's expenses in my report. They are both FT college students.  L going to explain this to the judge that I am the guarentee on my son's rent and owner of the kid's c-phones.  I am so pissed! and so are the kids.  If the money goes to her tomorrow, they want to cut her out of their lives.

[Forestaken]

SUCCESS!

Hearing the Ls bicker about the house (who has exclusive use) the J clarified that I have exclusive use of the house and she get $1000 per month for the time being.

I was scared before the ruling.  Thank goodness my L is agressive and smart.

I have to get her clothes/shoes/documents out of the house to her.

It will take place Today, Monday, Wednesday and next Friday.

The exchange will take place in the parking lot in front of the court building.

"I ain't no dummy"

[ForeverDad]

The terms of my divorce were that we were to split some various pieces of china between us, most separate, a few were partial sets.  Silly me, I brought the whole group to her at the sheriff's parking lot and asked her to pick her half.  She took the box, said "They're all mine" and left.  I should have anticipated that entitlement, or at least picked out some of the pieces I really wanted first.  My lawyer said to Let It Go.

[livednlearned]

Congratulations Forstaken   

Glad it was a positive outcome.

[Matt]

Wow - congratulations!

[whirlpoollife]

My stbxh wanted more to take than was on his list he made at the hearing. He wanted me to do the work. Better me than him because who knows what

he would take.  I made a list of all of it and I took photos of all of it.  It is just stuff but give them one item they want ten.

[Forestaken]

The exchange in front of the court house was terse and in someways hilarious.

Terse: Her attitude and verbal agressiveness made me realize why I was divorcing her and getting her outta of my life.  She had not changed, still the mean and uncaring person she always was.  She didn't take everything I brought rather she picked through it as I watched.  She refused to take all of her clothes and shoes but took her documents and jewelry.

Hilarious: because she brought her sister and brother-in-law.  Her brother-in-law videod what was taken and the whole transaction.  I kept my cool and mouth shut except for proper answers. ("A fish doesn't get caught if he keeps his mouth shut".  The J already said he doesn't know who is telling the truth.  My T told me that the Js have heard it all before and its a matter of finances.  So far, so true. Still I gotta be on my toes.  The final deceed is done.

BTW, I started planning in April 2004.  Plan executed May 2012. 8 years of Hell.

I can never thank this board enough.  You guys and gals supported my at my lowest time in life.    

[Forestaken]

Update email from my  L

"I just got a copy of the last Court Order and the indications are ambiguous.  I have a call in to (s2bx's L) for that reason plus the order does not reflect the Court’s ruling about exclusive use.  I would like to see if I can submit an amended order over our (the lawyers) signatures by agreement.  At that time I will take up the issue of the beginning date for support payments."

Her L is suppose to write up the order but keeps screwing is up and my L is correcting him and charging me.

[Matt]

Have a frank talk with your lawyer:

I see how this is working and it's not working well.  The problem is expecting the other lawyer to write up the orders.  He does it wrong, you give him corrections, the mistakes continue, and I have to pay for your time.

Either get a transcript of the court's statement, or write it up yourself, and just submit it to the court for approval.  Ignore the other side since working with them adds time, money and mistakes.  Let me see it before you submit it and if we are both confident it's right then it's right.

[ForeverDad]

The reality is that the other side has no incentive to do it right.  And they're acting like they'll keep doig it until you & your L give in.  Matt's right, leaving it to ex's L to write up didn't save you any money.  Your L should write it up, verify with you it's satisfactory, then get the other L to sign off on it.  Whether or not the other side signs off, it then needs to go to court for the judge to compare the transcript to the differing write-ups.

In most cases a transcript is never ordered.  But in this case - high conflict - it sounds like it's needed.

[Matt]

I think that often attorneys don't see how dysfunctional their processes are.  Or maybe they see it and don't care as long as they can charge more.

Many attorneys still use 8.5" X 14" paper, while the rest of us use 8.5" X 11".

Some attorneys still use WordPerfect not Word.

I had an attorney who didn't do his own e-mail - it all went through his secretary, and she had a queue several days long.  So resolving even the smallest matter took days instead of hours.

All these are small examples but they show that attorneys can get away with dysfunctional processes if we don't speak up.  When we see something that isn't working, we're tempted to think we can't do anything about it - and sometimes that may be true.  But we can at least try to offer a better way, and since we're paying the bills, they ought to listen... .

[Forestaken]

Update:

S2bx has hired a new L, talked with my L. S2bx's L having trouble with getting case files from old incomptent L.  Wants a 4 way meeting (me, s2bx and 2 L's). My L stated it would be unproductive knowing my s2bx. Requested they make a settlement offer.

Last court date (Oct): the Judge ordered me to pay $1000/month, for her to get a job and come back in 3 months. I pay while she isn't working or looking.  No court date in sight.

Since we were married for 23 years, what are the chances I am on the hook forever?

[ForeverDad]

Last court date (Oct): the Judge ordered me to pay $1000/month, for her to get a job and come back in 3 months. I pay while she isn't working or looking.  No court date in sight.

It may take a month or two to get a court date.

Since we were married for 23 years, what are the chances I am on the hook forever?

A lot depends on your state's policies and guidelines.

Some do's and dont's:

• While it is okay to say she was/is impossible to live with, don't say she's handicapped or mentally ill or that might encourage her to seek disabled status and more likely long term support.



• Good to say she needs to find a job.  Court should ask her to provide proof she's been applying for jobs.  However, everyone knows she can apply and yet still subtly sabotage any job opportuntiies, so... .



• At the very least, even if she can't/won't find a job, she should be "imputed" with the income of a job she is capable of doing.



• Court may decide she needs job training so she can be more employable.  Be prepared to support her minimally while she takes a year or two of classes.



• If she does get to seek job training or education on your dime, set the limit at 1 or 2 years, her seeking support for 4 years is probably unreasonably entitled and she may find novel ways to get it extended even longer.

[Matt]

Find out about "imputed" income.

Here's how it worked in my case:

I quit my very lucrative job, for a number of reasons, a few months after we separated.  So my income was zero, and my wife's was about 1/4 of what mine had been before I quit.

Most people in my field would make about 3/4 of what I had been making.

My wife's attorney wanted to "impute" income to me, for the purpose of calculating alimony and child support.  The kids are with me most of the time, but officially it's 50/50.  I agreed that some income should be imputed, and proposed a number about 3/4 of what I had been making, since I said that's what I would probably be making if I was working.

My wife's lawyer - always looking for a way to bill more hours - instead filed a motion asking the court to appoint a local company to do a study, to determine what amount should be imputed.  They wanted to charge $1,500 for the study.  I said OK - my lawyer said they were reputable and would do a good job - but my wife had to pay for the study.

They interviewed me and asked good questions, and looked at my past records to see how much I made before.  Their result was lower than what I had offered - about 2/3 of what I had been making, where I had offered agree to 3/4.

I said, "OK, I'll agree to the results of the study."  But now my wife's lawyer - again seeing a way to bill more hours - fought against the company she had asked the court to appoint to do the study!  She proposed a number about - you guessed it - 3/4 of what I had been making - almost exactly what I had originally proposed.

The judge split the difference and imputed income to me a little lower than I would have agreed to without my wife (which means me) having to pay $1,500 for the study.  Alimony and child support were calculated accordingly.

The big winner, of course, was my wife's lawyer, who was able to bill several hours for this ridiculous exercise.  And my own lawyer had to bill me a few hours too.

The reason I bring this up is because some income should be imputed to anyone who is not working.  Someone like your wife, who may not have very marketable skills, the court might only impute minimum wage X 40 hours a week.  But it's still better than nothing.  And if she has had a good income in the past - you can find that out through the discovery process - you should ask that her peak earning year be the amount imputed.  If, for example, she made $40,000 five years ago, she should be able to make at least that much now.

[Forestaken]

My s2bx never had a real job.  She worked part time only when she felt like it or when her family in Latin America needed some money and she knew that we were struggling.  She never contributed to the house.  She never worked inside the home either.  Basically she stayed home and watched Spanish Soap operas all day.

I learned from this wonderful website not to mention her mental illness as that is a form of disability which will prevent her from working.  

Can she find work? Yes. She's smart enough and hold a college degree. But she never learned to drive and has never made an effort to do so.  Our public transportation here isn't too good but it isn't horrible either.  She lives with her sister which is near a large shopping and medical complex. So, she is in 15 minute walking distance form employment.  I suspect she wants to settle "to take the money and run" back to her home country where she has her family home and could live on $500/month or start her own business.

[Matt]

Imputed income is not an issue for division of assets.  It only affects child support and alimony.  So if she does not seek alimony or child support, it's moot.

But if she wants alimony or child support, don't talk about whether she has worked in the past.  Talk about her college degree and the work it qualifies her to do, and how much that work pays.  Insist on some imputed income, even if it's smaller than it should be.

[ForeverDad]

Matt's point was that you're not to help her make her case.  You mention the aspects that benefit you, such as her degree, it's up to her to mention whatever things benefit her.  Maybe you can settle or if need be, the judge will decide.  Just know that the judicial system will be sure to protect her rights very well, perhaps too well, so while you don't want to rip her off, so to speak, you don't have to be overly fair, overly nice or overly whatever, otherwise you will be sabotaging yourself.  Of course, by now you know all about that.