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Author Topic: FAQ: Correlation Bisexuality and BPD  (Read 7798 times)
notoncebuttwice
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« on: January 10, 2007, 07:03:04 AM »

If you read Sometimes I Act Crazy (the update to I Hate You Don't Leave Me), there is a case study of a male borderline who wanders in and out of gay relationships.  Because borderlines lack a sense of self and are in perpetual search to replace caregivers who abandoned them (in truth or in perception), I suspect the incidence of bisexuality among borderlines is unusually high.  (That is not to say that I suspect the reverse is true, so I'm not sure how much of a red flag bisexuality is.  Better red flags are multiple relationships, few long-term friendships, early expressions of devotion, splitting, etc.)

My second uBPexbf claimed to be bisexual.  His basic statement was that he liked women but liked men more.  A relationship with him involves no intimacy and little sex.  He would also use his bisexuality as a weapon of control and a means of easy exit: I'm attracted to alot more people than you, so watch out; I'm going through a phase of wanting to be with women (if currently with a man) or with men (if currently with a woman).  Incidentally, prior to re-engaging me, he claims he dated a bisexual male who couldn't sleep in the same bed at night, which may be an intimacy issue.
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Minky
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2007, 02:48:08 AM »

I think it goes back to the BP not knowing who they are - not having a "core sense of identity".  Almost like being a chameleon - they absorbed what is around them and become what influences them at that moment in time.

The majority of Non's know who they are - they have a set of values and beliefs that stabilise them - a BP has none of these.  I know I am female, I know I like a certain type of man, I can list hobbies I enjoy, types of holidays that give me pleasure, I have a certain personal style, a certain way of interacting with others, I know my strengths and weaknesses and words or circumstances that trigger me.  In other words - I "know" me and what makes me me.  Any sustainable changes I make in my life are gradual and not usually as a result of some brief encounter with another.  The BP does not have this ability - it is constantly borrowed from whatever sitution they are in and it is not sustainable over any period of time.

My ex would go from being a "man's man" - then would socialise with a gay colleague - would adopt this colleague's speech and mannerisms.  His boss was "bi-curious" - which led ex to develop a morbid fasination in and would go on and on about how "dreadful it was" - my thoughts were that he "protests too much".  He had one long distance friend who he totally idolised to the point of looking like a crush obsessed teenager whenever we saw this guy - it was embarassing to watch him.

I think the bisexuality is just another area where they display their lack of "inner self" - they don't know who or why they are in other areas of their lives and their sexual orientation comes under this banner as well.

Minks
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NonBP_ex

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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2007, 02:44:49 PM »

Looking back both my exes (from completely different relationships!) have BPD traits (although are undiagnosed) one of them was bi and one of them was straight.

What got to me about them both was that in the phase when they were reeling me in the sex was fantastic and they were like nymphos, very hypersexual. Then once they had done this they seemed to get almost bored with sex, as if they needed to mess with my mind more... .wierd.
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l6blue
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 03:19:22 PM »

You know the controversy over racial profiling? One of the things many security experts and criminologists say is that it simply does not work. In fact, it often hurts the chances of catching a potential criminal. The hypothesis is that people can be so caught up in looking at the profile that they ignore the more important behavioral clues. There would be a danger of the same thing happening here. You are so busy looking for bisexuality that you aren't paying attention as much to the really telling aspects of the person's behavior.

Also, supposition like this based on anectotal evidence can be very stigmatizing. So please tread carefully herer. My anecdotal evidence is that the bisexual people I know don't have BPD tendencies. FWIW.

Anyway, sexual confusion is one of the hallmarks of BPD. So a person who is confused may go from men to women and back again simply because they have no solid sense of identity. So that could be confused with being bisexual, even though it's really not. The bisexual people I know aren't confused at all about their orientation. They are solid in knowing that they are attracted to men and women.

l6blue
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JoannaK
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 07:25:56 PM »

One of the defining characteristics of someone with BPD is a lack of core identity.  Confusion or changes in gender identity and/or sexual orientation are usually listed right next the "lack of identity or lack of sense of self" under most descriptions of BPD. 

An eating disorder is probably a "marker" for possible BPD... .In other words, if you meet someone with an eating disorder, you may want to see if the person might also be BPD.  If someone him or herself has an eating disorder, he/she should consider whether or not he/she has BPD.  Likewise, if you meet someone who is bisexual (more than idle curiosity) or who swings between being homosexual and heterosexual, you may wish to consider whether or not that person is BPD. 

As with all of the behaviors discussed in the "common behaviors" board, a person with BPD isn't always this or that... .and, though many with BPD are a, it doesn't follow that many with a are BPD.  Or even if all with BPD are a, it doesn't follow that all with a are BPD.
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tracer
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2007, 07:34:38 PM »

mine was definitely confused about her sexuality.

she told me that she was very comfortable in her bisexuality but when it came down to it in the end it seems that she just wanted what she wanted and was willing to say whatever it took to get me to sleep with her (i am female).

turns out now she has posted herself on a common dating site as "straight"

she has never had a strong sense of self for the 15 years i have known her. she's always going after someone and making herself into what she thinks that person wants her to be.
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Waysplusmeans
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2007, 02:05:40 AM »

l6blue,

Warmly stated. I think quite a few people suffer from a great of bitterness in their chosen and un-choosen relationships with BPD's. And, that, bitterness more than often blinds some to the fact about their own unrecognized ignorance concerning various aspects of human relationships. In reading through numerous post on this board I see a correlation with denial for many about their own possible BPD status and unhealthy views and approaches to relationships just in general. This illness requires an enormous amount of compassion and understanding and sometimes when you're to close at heart with the person that suffers you may not be the best person in assisting. I think at times it is too easy to blame this population of people for all the problems in a relationship.

I think sometimes this population is at risk for abuse in many ways by others with questionable unresolved issues of their own. From what I understand part of the counseling for those with BPD is to check to see if their partners have sadist, bisexual... ., etc., tendencies themselves; bisexuality and homosexuality cuts across an entire spectrum of realities rooted in society and family history. Personally, I find no humor in the suffering and tragic circumstances of another.

In saying this, I agree that other behaviors and factors contribute to confusion over sexual identity and not just BPD.

www.draknet.com/proteus/frypan.htm

www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/little_prince.htm

www.solveyourproblem.com/artman/publish/printer_63.shtml


"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." - Albert Einstein

You know the controversy over racial profiling? One of the things many security experts and criminologists say is that it simply does not work. In fact, it often hurts the chances of catching a potential criminal. The hypothesis is that people can be so caught up in looking at the profile that they ignore the more important behavioral clues. There would be a danger of the same thing happening here. You are so busy looking for bisexuality that you aren't paying attention as much to the really telling aspects of the person's behavior.

Also, supposition like this based on anectotal evidence can be very stigmatizing. So please tread carefully herer. My anecdotal evidence is that the bisexual people I know don't have BPD tendencies. FWIW.

Anyway, sexual confusion is one of the hallmarks of BPD. So a person who is confused may go from men to women and back again simply because they have no solid sense of identity. So that could be confused with being bisexual, even though it's really not. The bisexual people I know aren't confused at all about their orientation. They are solid in knowing that they are attracted to men and women.

l6blue

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NonBP_ex

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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 11:23:10 AM »

Personally I would go with the poster who mentioned racial profiling.


www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/daddy's_princess.htm

Now this is interesting! Both my exes were daddy's girls, and they each said that their father dying was the worst thing that happened to them (fair enough), in one of them it triggered a breakdown and she is still not over it five years later. The death of their fathers does seem to have something to do with it, specially as they didn't always get on with them.

Anyone else?
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notoncebuttwice
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2007, 11:38:15 AM »

Excerpt
Personally I would go with the poster who mentioned racial profiling.

I think most posters would agree: high incidence of bisexuality among borderlines does not imply high incidence of BPD among bisexuals.  Moreover, bisexuality makes a poor red flag when there are better behavioral indicators, such as numerous failed relationships and the absence of long-term friendships. 
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yoo
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 01:43:10 PM »



Here's my experience:

I'm a woman who has always been attracted more to women than to men, and I've always been very clear about my sentimental-personal orientation. Considering my own experience with another woman who had a collection of BDP trait, I agree with the following:

- "borderlines lack a sense of self and are in perpetual search to replace caregivers who abandoned them" (and it switches back and forth from the mother and the father figure, thus between men and women).

- "they are needy black holes, and it probably doesn't matter which sex fulfills the need"

- ... .


Confusion is a hallmark. Confusion about sexual orientation might only REFLECT of one of the multiple confusions they demonstrate. But I don't think bisexuality is a hallmark in itself. There are many people who are clear about their bisexuality, and who are Nons. For BPD, bisexuality is a symptom of something else that's wider and deeper.

Here's an example:

While we were together, my ex-BPgf used to say things like "I better trust women than men, men are all ___holes".

When we broke up, because she's had a crush on a guy (!) and left for him, she would say to me things like "you're like my mother, you think men can't be trusted. But men are wonderful" (!)

To complete the story, the guy was something like a father erzatz (probably as much as I was myself a "mother erzatz"

I guess it's a very prototypical example.

Personally, I've always had close male friends (both hetero- and homosexual), and I never had any feelings such as those she would mention while we were together. But it was like she borrowed what she assumed I would think. THIS was a red flag !

Not much actually to do with sexual orientation per se. But way more with a lack of self indentity.

- yoo
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tigereyes
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2007, 02:15:46 PM »



The BPD in my life was my very prudish mother, but now that you mention it - I've done performing arts my entire life. It attracts a lot of high-drama personalities. The biggest high-drama types tend to be bisexual; people who identify solidly gay or straight tend to be calmer. That said, many bisexuals are well grounded and know themselves well - but there seems to be a higher percentage of emotionally unstable bisexuals than gay or straight. Just an observation.
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geroldmodel
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2007, 05:44:00 AM »

There seems to be some confusion what bisexuality is:

According to A. Kinsley (the reference in both bisexual- and scientific communities)

Bisexuality is the area between exclusive heterosexuality and exclusive homosexuality.

BPD or not.

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A570098

Excerpt
Anyway, sexual confusion is one of the hallmarks of BPD. So a person who is confused may go from men to women and back again simply because they have no solid sense of identity. So that could be confused with being bisexual, even though it's really not.


So this is a false statement:: a BPD going from man to woman and back is - per definition – bisexual.

I do not want to stigmatise with posting this topic, let that be clear.

Bisexuality does not equal BPD

BPD does not equal Bisexuality.

Nothing in nature is as simple as that.

Maybe I overreacted by saying that “bisexuality is a red flag”

I think JoannaK expressed it way better than me:

Excerpt


An eating disorder is probably a "marker" for possible BPD... .In other words, if you meet someone with an eating disorder, you may want to see if the person might also be BPD.  If someone him or herself has an eating disorder, he/she should consider whether or not he/she has BPD.  Likewise, if you meet someone who is bisexual (more than idle curiosity) or who swings between being homosexual and heterosexual, you may wish to consider whether or not that person is BPD.


More research on the subject:

Excerpt
Sexual orientation and mental health: results from a community survey of young and middle-aged adults

ANTHONY F. JORM, DSc, AILSA E. KORTEN, BSc, BRYAN RODGERS, PhD, PATRICIA A. JACOMB, MSc and HELEN CHRISTENSEN, PhD

Background Community surveys have reported a higher rate of mental health problems in combined groups of homosexual and bisexual participants, but have not separated these two groups.

Aims To assess separately the mental health of homosexual and bisexual groups compared with heterosexuals.

Method A community survey of 4824 adults was carried out in Canberra, Australia. Measures covered anxiety, depression, suicidality, alcohol misuse, positive and negative affect and a range of risk factors for poorer mental health.

Results The bisexual group was highest on measures of anxiety, depression and negative affect, with the homosexual group falling between the other two groups. Both the bisexual and homosexual groups were high on suicidality. Bisexuals also had more current adverse life events, greater childhood adversity, less positive support from family, more negative support from friends and a higher frequency of financial problems. Homosexuals reported greater childhood adversity and less positive support from family.

Conclusions The bisexual group had the worst mental health, although homosexual participants also tended to report more distress.



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dazed36
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 09:35:45 AM »

o.k. I see now the bi thing as just gender confusion but there has to be one over ridding preference to another dosen't there?Not to be grose but my bpexbf seemed to go to the bathroom and spit after  sex  like it was grose to him.He always came back and acted like nothing was wrong but I always was are you o.k... ? I wonder if I was intimate with someone who mentally really coulden't handle the emotionalness of sex and spitting was like how a kid would act if that happend to them.I don't know I scares me to think how bad he persisted and wanted sexual relations with me yet I feel after reading all there is on BPD that I shoulden't have had sex with him and did something wrong.Maybe his mom did something to him and he was reinacting it with me! i do know that It wasen't me per say. it was something he warned me he did I just diden't really understand it and his discription was vage about what he was warning me about.What's any of your guy's opinion on this?It really is sad
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GameGirl
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2007, 05:31:29 PM »

I do not want to stigmatise but... .

This week I was wondering about bisexuality and it's possible correlation with BPD... .

Not homosexuality or bisexual fantasies... .but about people who are attracted (both mentally and physically) to both sexes.

Well, I am actually stunned from what I found:

On wiki & bisexuality:

Excerpt
Movies in which the bisexual characters conceal murderous neuroses include Basic Instinct, Black Widow, Blue Velvet, Cruising, and Girl Interrupted.

Aren't these the movies depicting BPD as mentioned in another topic on this board? 

And on a more scientific view on things:

Excerpt
Object choice and actual bisexuality.Limentani A.

Actual bisexuality is to be distinguished from homosexuality in a latent state and from conscious bisexual fantasies. Contemporary social changes have caused an increased demand for help for those men and women capable of engaging in protracted heterosexual and homosexual relations. Among such people narcissistic and borderline states are common. Clinical material is presented in some detail. The author suggests that the condition is associated with a tendency to be caught up between the anaclitic and narcissistic types of object choice. The concurrent involvement with a male and female love object against a background of pseudogenitality creates the illusory appearance of two objects being involved, covering up the fact that there is splitting of the original love object together with severe preoedipal disturbance.

PMID: 955788 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Bisexuality? Added to my 'RED FLAG' list.

I think that confusion about sexual orientation is a symptom, but bisexuality is not confusion about sexual orientation.  It is a sexual orientation.
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yoo
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 03:01:52 AM »

IMHO,

Some analytic views and by-the-book statements clearly need to be upgdared to the actual societal framework in which the nineteen hundreds schemata of the family no longer holds in many cases Smiling (click to insert in post)

Having a "mommy and daddy" prototypical family type does not ensure that the kids follow an appropriate pathway. Conversely, there are plenty of individuals who where raised in an "off-the-road" type of family (recomposed,  single parent, homosexual) who are perfectly sane.

The way indivuals develop comes from a dynamic between the individual's potential to face a given relational environnement (whether threatening or not), and the type of environnement itself.


Now about BP:

Excerpt
I think that confusion about sexual orientation is a symptom, but bisexuality is not confusion about sexual orientation.

I fully agree with that. Bisexuality in this case is simply antoher manifestation of the confusion present in the individual's self. And if many BP demonstrate a form of bisexuality, fortunately, far from all bisexuals have personality disorders  Smiling (click to insert in post)

- yoo
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JerryKew
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2008, 03:52:28 AM »

My uBPDx partner was married to, and divorced from a woman before meeting me. He was apparently bisexual but remained exclusvively homosexual during our long-term relationship.

I am myself a homosexual with bisexual tendencies. "Sexual confusion" fits me to a T, yet I don't consider myself to be a borderline case (Phew!). I have my own issues from childhood, and may occasionally display PD traits (or "fleas"?), but I feel pretty healthy and together overall (believe it or not!). I know right from wrong and I don't go and say one thing one day and the exact opposite the next. I am a reliable person. I don't manipulate people. You can depend on me. I am a caring and generous person. I am not self-centered. As a self-respecting Non, I have a great degree of empathy for others.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I'm just confused about love and sexual orientation. I don't feel 100% at ease in the gay community, neither do I feel comfortable in a 'straight' environment. What does that make me?

Human sexuality is very complex. It seems to me it is much too simplistic and stigmatizing to decide once and for all that bisexuality is closely related to BPD and vice versa.
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LAPDR
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2008, 09:20:17 AM »

Now about BP:

Excerpt
I think that confusion about sexual orientation is a symptom, but bisexuality is not confusion about sexual orientation.

I fully agree with that. Bisexuality in this case is simply another manifestation of the confusion present in the individual's self. And if many BP demonstrate a form of bisexuality, fortunately, far from all bisexuals have personality disorders  Smiling (click to insert in post)

- yoo

I believe this is core to most of the issues and not just in sexual orientation. My ex and I grew up in the same small town at the same time. There were lots of national and community standards bread into us as our learning and conditioning process as growing up, many good and some oh hum. What I found out was in her dysfunctional household there was no reinforcement of these values, especially by her father, he was a do as I say type of person and he always did something else as he wanted to do. This had to be confusing and probably lead to a lot of confusion. I believe she left that town with me very confused about her core values and this became very evident years later with her disconcert about other people's feelings, having anti-social tendencies with disregard to social norms and laws to the point she voiced total discuss with what other good people did. In our early years I can remember her saying how terrible or disgusting it was when she would see a homosexual scene on television or the movies, yet years later she tried her hand a few times having encounters with other women. They didn't last long but with this post it makes me think was these incidents a form of her having liberal thinking or was it since her core concrete values were never formed she wanted to do as she wanted? I had to laugh when I found her e-mail from her first encounter with another women and she was dumping her because all she complained all the time about her terrible husband (me) and that she was so controlling in their short lived relationship. Today she has a live in boyfriend and I bet she would never admit to this aspect of her past to anybody.

LA
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Letting go when it is too painful to hang on is hard to rationalize.

geroldmodel
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 06:43:07 AM »

It has been a year since I posted this topic.

I had some discussions about this with a professor psychology who wrote a doctorate about

the homosexual- & bisexual communities in our country.

Bisexuality does not equal BPD and BPD does not equal Bisexuality.

However

"Sexual Confusion" is part of the diagnosis of BPD in the ICD-10 (universal equivalent to the DSM)

Excerpt
ICD-10 diagnostic criteria

[edit] F60.3 Emotionally unstable personality disorder

[edit] F60.30 Impulsive type

The general criteria for personality disorder (F60) must be met. [see below]

At least three of the following must be present, one of which must be (2):

marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences;

marked tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized;

liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions;

difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward;

unstable and capricious mood.

[edit] F60.31 Borderline type

The general criteria for personality disorder (F60) must be met. [see below]

At least three of the symptoms mentioned in criterion 2 for F60.30 must be present [see above], with at least two of the following in addition:

disturbances in and uncertainty about self-image, aims, and internal preferences (including sexual);

liability to become involved in intense and unstable relationships, often leading to emotional crisis;

excessive efforts to avoid abandonment;

recurrent threats or acts of self-harm;

chronic feelings of emptiness.

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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 08:22:14 PM »

Now mine was repulsed by the thought... .Id joke around with her about every guys fantasy being a 3some and she would say that was repulsive... .She was very religious... .and also said she would never cheat on a guy... .haha... .so who's to say... .
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 12:35:36 PM »

One of the defining characteristics of someone with BPD is a lack of core identity.  Confusion or changes in gender identity and/or sexual orientation are usually listed right next the "lack of identity or lack of sense of self" under most descriptions of BPD. 

This is why I keep coming on this board- because I learn something new all the time.  My UBPD Ex was not bisexual but turned out to be a closet cross dresser (did it only in the house by himself).  Strangely enough, he would only cross dress during periods of intense stress and apparently, he got no sexual pleasure from it.  He told our marriage therapist that he would dress up and do things like vacuum the rug or watch TV. Toward the end of our marriage, he started acting out and dressing in public, but in a weird way - he would wear his regular clothes, but with a bra filled with water ballons.  Or he would make up his face (ignoring his moustache, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) and put on a wig, but drive around with shorts and no shirt.  One of his "demands" to the marriage therapist was that I would allow him to dress out in the house whenever he wanted, which freaked me out and grossed me out, not to mention that we had two teenage girls at the time. He even started stealing one daughter's clothing and undergarments to cross dress in, then cut them up and threw them away. We were finding her chopped up bras and panties stuffed all over the place. Apparently in his mind (according to the therapist), he thought that females got all the breaks so he wanted to be female. And he was obsessed with growing boobs.  He tried ordering those pills that make your boobs grow.  But he was still content with that big ol' moustache and the pp.

Basically, he just didn't want to be a female or a male, he just didn't want to be HIM.
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almostknowhoiam
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 12:21:00 AM »

Just to throw this out there, the bisexual confusion being described here does not mean they are confused and are actually straight. It could also mean that they are truly transgender or lesbian or gay and they are confused about wanting a heterosexual relationship. Just food for thought.
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