6.09 | Has the anger gone too far?

[sandyb]

I can understand why there is so much anger displayed by members, I am sure that for many, if not all, that the anger stems from the oft huge shortfall in expectations from a partner, family member, or relationship of any type.

I think there is also a huge aspect of the anger we perhaps have with ourselves, at least I have struggled with that, and still do. I don't actually think I was ever able to be angry toward my ex despite the justifications. Perhaps there is something in not being able to display anger that is equally disabling? Either way I believe that holding on to any residual anger and I suppose in essence apportioning blame for any length of time is toxic and self defeating, stems healing, growth and the opportunity to be joyful, happy, and create new.

The focus is all important, I try (with varying degrees of success) to stay in the here and now, the acceptance, and self forgiveness are still a work in progress even after a long time.


Sandyb

[Mystic]

I have experienced the anger and I understand it.

I have never been an angry person.  Always been told I was overly tolerant, overly forgiving, etc.   

I've been though seriously bad/abusive relationships before, but never anything like my experience with uBPDNPDexbf.  Never.  This was in a league of its own.   

It was like a psychological rape.  An unbelievable emotional violation.  Toss in the physical end of it, the financial end of it, and it's then like a whole life rape.  Pretty bad stuff to handle from someone you loved and trusted.   

I really felt that short of murder there was nothing more this person could to do hurt me. 

Anger?  Heavens, only a corpse wouldn't feel it. 

But. 

It has to end.  Anger is a good thing... .it's like pain... .tells us when something's terribly wrong, and that we need to deal with it.

And I do believe the anger we read here is just that, people dealing with their pain, in what is believed to be a relatively anonymous environment where they are relatively safe to vent those feelings, feelings that are not easy to vent IRL. 

The thing is, anger needs to be a finite thing.  It needs to be released, examined and dealt with effectively or it can turn inward and harm us. 

[SlipKnot]

this is going to be a good discussion, thanks for the topic skip.

anger has been a good friend to me for a lot of years now. it is debilitating, and hurtful, and damaging to the extreme, but it is also numbing. better than drugs or alcohol. let it take you completely and you can bury any emotion you dont want to deal with, like guilt. afterwards, there is the numbness where you are free of having to deal with any emotions for a time. just like drugs. and there is an addictive quality to anger also. i suppose it is the adrenaline rush. since i got married, i havent been able to share my feelings safely (not with uBPDwife surely and not with family or friends because i wasnt allowed to have any), or feel that emotional connection with another. i realized early on that there was something seriously wrong with my marriage, but her promises kept me in until the kids started to arrive. she even told me many times back then "i know i'll feel better when we have a baby". she never felt better. i missed opportunity after opportunity to leave and i hate myself for staying, for what i have become, for the things i have done. most of the time, i can look at things objectively and from a viewpoint of my own personal healing. sometimes, though, my old friend is a great and familiar comfort and escape. also, im not quite sure if i am angry with her because i dont love her any more, or if the anger is my way of making sure i stay not loving her. hmm

SK

[othello]

I think it's healthy and almost necessary for us to express some anger, especially in this environment, where there is an element of safety - the great sounding board of the message board community. I think also most of us have anger born mainly of frustration or the unfairness of the treatment we received

I think it becomes dangerous if we rely on that anger as the thing that drives us, or choose to just be blanket angry at them - in effect paint them black... We then loose a part of us and become like them... Where it's easier to blame it all on them and play the noble victim, grimly carrying on in the face of adversity, when we should be angry but honest with ourselves, not let the anger, or whatever emotion we might feel, drive us, or stop us from accepting our part of responsibility

[Checkmate]

The anger for me got out of hand last week when I lost it ... .I swear if anyone had seen me they would have thought I was the crazy one ... .

When the anger has gone too far? For me, it's now ... .I"m not acting like the person I usually am ... .Today, I made an appointment with a therapist to sort this out ... .

I"m not an angry person by nature. I don't like this. So I'm going to change it before it becomes a permenant part of who I am.

[Attagirl]

Good topic--thanks, Skip.

I think anger is a necessary part of the process of healing, but it's only a part. If we stagnate in it, and that anger becomes our identity, it's not healthy. You're right that we get to choose. I woke up the other day and remembered that old saying, "What you focus on expands." Yikes! I've been focusing on perceived injustices and my angry reaction to them. Do I want more of that, or do I want to move on with my life? Time to turn my attention to what I DO want.

I'm not stuffing my anger. I'm working to acknowledge it, then transform it into a catalyst for understanding my own issues, especially those that let me stay for far too long in a relationship that didn't serve me (and honestly it didn't serve my ex either).

Another thing I remind myself is that resentment blocks flow. Wish I could remember where I first read that--it has stuck with me for about 15 years. I used to have that in big letters on my refrigerator. It's time to print it up again.

[anker]

Being able to safely vent my anger here and receive strong feedback on it helped me work through it in a way that kept me from acting badly.

Knowing that I was speaking to others who had been through such betrayal and weirdness helped me. I am glad I let out a lot of my anger here. Being able to express it to people who understood allowed me to find ways to move forward instead of being stuck.

Also the anger allowed me to disengage after a while. My concern and compassion were qualities my dpdxes used against me. To be able to shed that for even a little while saved me from a lot more misery.

Anger is healthy and expressing it here can help a lot. It's good that the folks here discourage those of us in that stage from acting on our angry impulses. I think everyone needs to hear that at some point.

[Skip]

Just a point of perspective - a discussion about unbridled resentment and dysfunctional coping is not "is anger (a natural part of grieving) healthy?" - anymore than a discussion about obesity being about "is food healthy?"

In both cases, the very thing that sustains us can actually be taken to a point that it harms us.  Emotional maturity is about knowing the difference and being mindful of it.

We see both here at bpdfamily and some members have trouble distinguishing the two.   So we're trying to differentiate between an emotionally mature, rehabilitating, and healthy reactions - and the dysfunctional and detrimental ones - to help others and possibly even help ourselves.

The question is "When has the anger gone too far and become detrimental? This is the topic of this workshop - what is the difference between healthy anger or unbridled resentment and dysfunctional coping?  "

What are the signs?

[Im.okay.now]

First of all ... .thanks for posting this ... .it really made me think.  

The idea that one partner was healthy (loving and giving) and the other partner was dysfunctional is seriously flawed.

Agree 100% ... .if we are all completely honest with ourselves we would see how this is a generally flawed misconception.

Lets face it, the hallmark of a BPD relationship is emotional immaturity by both partners.

However, an emotionally mature and grounded person does not get into such relationships and even if they accidentally fell into one, they would get out, reassess their decision process and values, make changes, and move on - not recycle back time and time again

I agree with this in principle however not so much in "all" cases. It might be a matter of semantics ? not sure but i would tend to agree more with this above statement if we also talked about what i would label as "situational emotional unhealthiness" and not just strictly emotional immaturity. From having read many posts and heard the stories of many posters it seems to me that there is a high number of people that get involved and enter relationships with BPD partners soon after divorcing/separating from long-time marriages and or breakups from longtime committed relationships. When they are vulnerable ... .in a weakened state ... .i don't have any data to back this up other than observations made here.

So maybe we are emotionally immature at that moment or in that current situation ?

Anyhow ... .my situation followed the normal grieving pattern. I hung onto my anger which helped me stay away and disconnected just long enough to finally let go and move on with my life.

This is a great subject for discussion.

ION

[seeking balance]

good topic Skip

2 short/simple things on the subject that I was told:

Anger is really masked hurt - once you let the hurt out, the anger will subside.

Resentment is equal to me taking poison and expecting you to die - not really helpful.

Anger is a healthy and necessary STAGE - but not a good place to live.  Anger will cause us to act in a way that usually protects us for the short term.  Get to the root and we get to the hurt.

[anker]

Signs that it's become unhealthy?

Justifying bad behavior (cheating, spying, stealing, purposely harming) by saying they "deserve it" (imagining revenge is different than going through with it)

Arguing that your bad behavior is somehow different than the same actions would be from them.  Because they're pwBPD. Bad behavior is bed whether or not the person doing it is sane


Continuing anger on into rage or violence

These are some of the thing I see related to this that trigger and upset me. If you're cheating on your spouse... .you don't have much reason to worry about someone else behaving that way to  you... .cheating

Also people stalking or spying on someone long time after the end of a relationship... .if a pwBPD was doing this would we not all sympathize with the non?  That bothers me. Shouldn't we be supporting each other in making healthy choices? Not reinforcing our poor decisions?

I was so furious at my dBPDx. I understand so desparately wanting revenge or just to hurt them back. But it isn't good for you, hurting people. It only LOOKS like it pays ogg for them


It really doesn't.

[snappybrowneyes]

Many good points... .we are all in different places with our pBD. For me the turning point was I was angry hurt, suspicious, etc. more often then not. This is not the person I usually am or wanted to be. The illness etc. was stealing my joy and I had a choice to change that or not.

I am not saying it was easy but my life is pretty joy filled now. WE have the right to be happy! WE have the right to take care of ourselves! WE have  the right to choose who and what we want in our lives! WE are entitled to our own feelings and opinions!

We can't change the past and dwelling there only hurts us. I am sure I handled situations wrong on many occasions but I also did not know what I was dealing with either. I can beat myself up over this or choose to move forward. One of the best things I changed was removing toxic people from my life and surrounded myself with positive, caring people.

Anger is a necessary step but dwelling there only hurts us! Expressing it here where people can truly understand what we all go through, is helpful.

Forgiving,moving on, having peace is a gift we give ouselves! xoxox

[roses89431]

This is a very good post. Thanks Skip. For myself, I can say I have felt my share of resentment and anger. I do feel that it is justified for sure. At the same time I know that I wasn't perfect too. Having read of the experiences of some people here it is very understandable that we would feel anger and resentment.

I have seen other people i know- some in my family - get bogged down by anger and resentment and turn bitter. I don't want to be like that.

Feeling anger and resentment is natural and a way to process your experience but I think it gets toxic when it ruins your day or you walk around feeling pissed off all the time. I don't want to be like that.

For me, what is helping me is to realize I exited my relationship with an act of kindness and I do pray for E- sounds simple but it does help a lot.

We can only control ourselves.

[2idealistic]

I know this is about us, but I would also submit that in a lot of cases if our BPDexes had been in a safe and healthy position to express anger at the appropriate time and in the appropriate setting about their core wounds and traumas, there's a very good chance that many might have found a path to greater self awareness and healing.  Ergo anger (still a difficult stage for me to fully express as well) is part of the antidote as well as a stimulus for new growth and healing; otherwise, our resentment fuels our own recycling of victimization.  I think a valuable lesson is a corollary to natural law, colloquially expressed:  "The most dangerous animal is a wounded animal."  And I believe that's especially true of BPDs; regrettably it holds true for us and our inertia in holding hurt, anger, resentment.  The other corollary:  "Hurt people hurt people."

[SlipKnot]

hey toomany

this is just my take on the whole anger/resentment thing. anger is how we display our displeasure. normally, in a properly functioning relationship of any kind, the anger would lead to discussion which is the first step on the road to dealing with the problem and moving on. when this cant take place, then resentment sets in. for me, it isnt a matter of anger OR resentment, it is both. i have the anger for each and every new wrong and resentment for all the old, unattended wrongs. and they feed each other. the new anger is made worse because i know that it will not be dealt with and the old resentments reinforce the intensity of the new anger. and each new anger becomes a resentment to add on top of the seemingly mountainous heap i carry around. when you dont deal with anger constructively, it grows and stops being an expression of emotional discontent and becomes instead the baseline for how you deal with life in general. you stop FEELING angry and start BEING angry, and those are two very different things. i think that is when the anger has gone too far. staying with a BPD partner (i am in that group, whether or not i like or want it that way, which i dont) seems kind of like helping a drowning man by adding water to the pool. Before i got married, i did have a temper but i always managed it. i could get royally pissed and still stay rational and make sound decisions. i am not like that anymore. i can and do get to the point where i lose the ability to think. sometimes, it is a conscious decision; i willingly choose rage over reason. i dont feel anger, because i am almost always angry. my baseline emotion floats between anger and depression and despair when i am at home. the only reprieve i get is when i leave the house for work or whatever and, if i can get busy and forget what is going on at home, i find a little of the old me lurking inside.

something else to consider: if you stay with your BPD partner, there are really only two outcomes a) you find a way to deal with the illness or b) you dont. if you dont, you risk severe emotional and even physical damage. if you do, you live knowing that you can expect very little if any emotional support from your partner and your own personal needs will never be met. speaking from personal experience, i dont think that anyone can last indefinitely long without the support and love that we entered the relationship to share back and forth. and what about those little resentments that creep in along the way? even normal, healthy couples have their share of annoyances that show up from time to time that need to be dealt with to prevent their becoming larger and less repairable issues. anyway, beside the point... .

if any of that makes any sense... .

SK

[dados76]

im still with my partner... and of course he can make me angry abt things... if hes feeling like it... he can really push buttons bc he knows where they all are... sure other people have... similar experiences w/pd SOs or not... i think for me... if its something that gets bigger than just our relationship... like a lot of examples skip first brought up... are real general 'THEY ALL dohit_' 'THEYRE all evil'... thats not healthy... to me... it also says... i aint interested in trying to be more than a victim of a crazy person  a person can make me angry... but that aint a reason for me to generalize that to cover... a whole bunch of people for something they cant help...

[Annaleigh]

I have to say the heroes are the people that work with pwBPD patients and truly help them.  I can't imagine how stressful this must be.  The heroes are the people that have been hurt so badly but recover and rebuild.  The heroes are people that work hard to heal from having BPD.  Heroes are people that live with pwBPD and have learned to not take it personally (I can't imagine this yet) and learned how to set boundaries.  And people that have really dug in to learn and educate us. 

This is a tough world sometimes.  FOR SURE.     

[Suzn]

Skip,

   I've read all the posts here and I'm still looking for the answer. How do I let go of the anger? I feel like I'm so literal. The only post that gives a partial answer to me was SB saying anger is masked hurt. I get that but god I feel liked I've cried and cried and the hurt is till there. I mean, how do I know the anger is gone? It scares me to think I've got bottled up anger and it's gona come out in some wierd way. I asked my therapist how you get over this literally, is just giving it time gona do it? She said yes and you have to take care of yourself. And I asked what do you mean exactly? She said do little things for you like take a nap if you feel tired, do things you like to do, etc... I think maybe I'm impatient. At this point I feel like just walking away, from in here and therapy and tell myself I'm fine. But hell, I know that's not the right thing to do. My guess is, cry when it comes, keep talking and keep paying attention to everyone around me. Honestly I tell myself I'm being lazy to not want to HAVE to pay attention. Is this the emotional immaturity talkin? Just wanting to be carefree? Is it second nature to the emotionally "healthy" minded people to not to have to think about all this? I wana get to that point. I just hope it doesn't take years.

[OTH]

I sympathize with you Suzn. It took we awhile to get over it. I had to study and come to terms with the sickness. Then I just had to feel it. It hurt. The pain does go away in time though. I think I just turned a corner myself. I think I am ready to start my life again finally.

[united for now]

"Expressing anger actually increases aggression," says Brad Bushman, Ph.D. The Iowa State University psychologist and colleagues asked subjects to pen an essay, then inspired their ire by handing it back with a brutal critique. Next, the essay writers were asked to deliver noise bursts to either the person who'd insulted their paper or an innocent bystander. Subjects could decide how long and loud the annoying sounds would be. Miffed participants who hit a punching bag before administering the sounds were twice as cruel in their choice of noise length and volume as those who just sat quietly before performing the task. Furthermore, "they were aggressive toward both types of people," said Bushman, "and that's scary."

Psychology Today www.business.highbeam.com/136989/article-1G1-55010298/nonviolent-venting

For example, she cited a study among laid-off engineers in San Diego, which showed that the men who were invited to ventilate their anger actually became more hostile toward the company or their supervisors than those who were asked to criticize themselves. In another study, third-grade children who were encouraged to express their anger toward a child who had frustrated them ended up liking that child less than children did who were not permitted to express anger.

NY Times  nytimes.com/1983/03/08/science/venting-anger-may-do-more-harm-than-good.html

In study after study, subjects who vented anger against inanimate objects, who vented directly against the person who induced their anger, who vented hostility by playing football or who vented verbally about an employer - all showed more resentment than those who had not vented. In some experiments, venting led to aggression against innocent bystanders. Even those who firmly believed in the value of venting ended up more hostile and aggressive after thumping pillows or engaging in other expressions of anger.

physorg  physorg.com/news91899145.txt

While modern myths like to say that it is good to let it out, to be able to express yourself, to share your burdens - science is showing otherwise. If our goal is to improve our relationship and to become closer to someone, then we need to focus on what will help that goal.

In contrast to the venting experiments, other studies have shown that anger dissipates faster when people take deep breaths, relax or take a time out. Any action that "makes it impossible to sustain the angry state" can help defuse anger.

physorg  physorg.com/news91899145.txt

Two issues then... .

* Does allowing our partners to vent on us increase their aggression?

* Does venting here increase our resentment and the helpless feeling of being stuck?

[ItsAboutTime]

Once I began to vent and respond with anger and resentment instead of holding it all in and getting sick inside because I did, it was all downhill from there on. It was like waving the starting flag at the beginning of an auto race. It had been an 'ok' thing for him to verbally insult and degrade me, but once I stood my ground and fought back, it seemed all the flood gates were opened and things got worse.

So what's the choice when it comes to dealing with our anger and hurt with a BPD? We either hold it inside of us and let it pass or we fight back which is a natural response to the stress it causes.

Of course it's different when communicating with a normal person. With a BPD there doesn't seem to be a clear winner. You both lose. They fight to the death for control and can't see how you've been hurt by their words and insults, they just don't get it at all. You may as well argue with a stone. They can't empathize or understand your feelings and don't want to either.

Self respect has to come into play at some point in all of this. It's obvious they don't respect us anymore, so if we want to hold onto any self respect, we'll have to stand up for it and defend ourselves.

[LW1968]

While I believe that it depends on the situation and the individual, the references posted suggest otherwise.  Dunno---all I know is what holds true for me.  If I don't get it out in a constructive manner, it's eventually going to come out in a destructive manner.  And probably at the wrong place, the wrong time, or at the wrong person.

Better for me to identify it, deal with it, and get rid of it than bottle it up.  What's the stuff on mindfulness say about anger?  Anyone know or have a reference on it?

By the way, I watched about 60% of a show last night on the Oprah Network called Enraged about families coping with one person's over the top anger.  Interesting, but not really relevant as these were extreme cases.

[MoonWolf]

It's like a double edged sword isn't it...

BP people can rant/rage and take no responsibility for it. We as nons can't equally rant and rage back because *we* know it's wrong, when they can't tell the difference.

We need a safe place to vent our frustrations - It's what you do with your frustration afterward. For BP people they don't know any better, so they outbursts and nothing good comes out of it.

for nons they rant and rage and try to figure out what is wrong or let it pent up and it builds over time to the point where they can't take it anymore.

I know that sounds simple, and I admit it is... .

[Skip]

so if we want to hold onto any self respect, we'll have to stand up for it and defend ourselves.

I guess the question I would have is "is venting a constructive form of defending oneself or is it a destructive response?"

Flip it around.  When a spouse "vented" on us, did we stop and say "wow, that's good for you to get it out, I see your point now, I think I will change" or did we say "Я имел диарею на вашей рубашке вчера вечером. Вы пахнете прекрасный сегодня."

Their verbal abuse is a misguided attempt by an insecure and manipulative spouse to exercise control and establish dominance in a relationship.

You don't need to take this.  But at the same time, you are not a pit bull fighting another pit bull where survival means the others demise - you are a spouse and harmony is the objective.

When there is a time of calm, speak to your partner in "we" terms and talk about why they do this and how it affects you and how this destroys relationships.  Talk about appropriate ways for each of you to respond - and then do that.  This is where timeouts are very good.

This is a really good article to share:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=138812

[MaybeSo]

I have seen similar studies. Harville hendrix use to promote expressing pent up anger as part of his couples therapy but then they noticed it seemed to decrease safe connection and increase further angery thoughts and fellings,,,instead of being cathartic it had a kindling affect adding more fuel to the fire. Subsequent studies seem to indicate similar results. People still need to be heard and understood and they teach certain kinds of conversations that are healing and not counterproductive... .basically validating conversations and interactions are healing.

[iluminati]

Here's my thinking on this subject.  The one thing I've noticed is that while the pwBPD vents constantly about any little thing, we tend to hold it all in.  Neither of them are healthy.  UFN is right about how letting out your frustration can cause you to be more angry.  On the flip side, swallowing your pride slowly destroys a person until their feelings corrode them or they too end up venting.  

I think the key is to find a balance.  Express how you feel, but make sure it is your feelings, not some calculated form of revenge (which is what venting ultimately is).  The one thing I've picked up from reading about mindfulness is a beginner's mind.  Look at what you feel as if it is something new.  You might find out something worthwhile to use that you can use to progress, not repress.

[Newton]

I think venting at your BPD partner is pretty destructive for the relationship and won't achieve much understanding on their part of how upset you are by their actions.  Although I am "brilliant" at holding in my feelings of anger (not good and I'm working on it)... .in my situation when I did occasionally blow my top it just seemed to amplify her guilt at her poor behavior (and increase her defensive anger towards me).

However, I don't believe venting is "unhealthy" in itself... .perhaps it's just a matter of the right time and place... .the occasional vent on this message board in a supportive environment where us nons are just "putting it out there" knowing we will hopefully get good feedback from other members and create a good atmosphere for mindfulness in ourselves can surely only be a good thing?

I think venting at someone with poor or no ability to regulate or "think" about their emotions seems pointless... .it'll just increase the anger... .however I don't want to become a zen robot... .I think a good vent to a trusted friend or here usually provokes good advice and promotes introspection.  

[Inspirationneeded]

Two issues then... .

* Does allowing our partners to vent on us increase their aggression?

* Does venting here increase our resentment and the helpless feeling of being stuck?

1)  No I don't believe so, I think it depends on the sexes.  I wonder how many test subjects for these studies were men?  At least one study listed specifically described only men in the test group  Another used engineers, a field dominated by males.  Men are natural aggressors so letting us vent will give the impression that its OK to be aggressive towards you.   Women on the other hand aren't naturally aggressive.  Women generally poke and prod before they go off.  I would wager that most men on this board can see the signs when their BPD SO is going to go off on them well before it happens.  Learning how to counter it is a whole other discussion.  Point being, in my case I don't think she is being more aggressive if I let her vent.  She always goes thru the same progressions beforehand.

2) Not venting... .I've seen this pop up a bit the last few days.  Not getting angry, whatever you want to call it.  How about we not get happy?  You know that way we never get sad or dissappointed?  There's nothing wrong with being angry and venting as long as we are not projecting our emotions onto others. Leave and do something physical to get rid of that energy.  I consider that venting, if I just go talk to someone I'm not getting rid of that anxious energy.  You may feel better after talking but that built up adrenaline and energy is still there.

[MaybeSo]

Leave and do something physical to get rid of that energy.  I consider that venting, if I just go talk to someone I'm not getting rid of that anxious energy.  You may feel better after talking but that built up adrenaline and energy is still there.

I agree with this; I think if you are angry, it's a signal your boundaries are being crossed.  Take better care of your boundaries, and you will spend less time feeling angry.  However, when your boundaries are crossed, yes, it's natrual to feel anger (anger is how we KNOW our boundareis are being crossed) and that anger needs to be discharged preferably physcially... .like through sweating or tears.  Strong emotions are a phsycial energy, the chemicals that register that emotion reside in he body and they should be activly discharged so you are not just stewing in a bath of adrenalin and cortisol which in over supply have been shown to be bad for you physcially and can acutully change areas of your brain, ... .that's why many T's promote excercise or some kind of physical movement every day.  Not just for weight control etc, but as a discharge of those chemicals.

[Jaybird]

I agree with MaybeSo.  Venting to my H, even over issues not related to him, were usually not well received.  He tended to either take it personally or want to fix it for me.  I was really looking for validation which is what I get here. 

Venting here, with my T or other friends is helpful to a point.  The validation helps me see that my reaction is pretty normal under the circumstances.  It feels good to share my story with those of you who really understand what it is like to live with a pwBPD.  What I love about this site (and my T) is the gentle nudge to address the cause of my anger; whether it is a perception that needs to be changed (expecting a duck to bark), a boundary that has been crossed, or a lower tolerance for irritating behavior because I am worn out and depleted.  We have a lot of control over feeling victimized.  Somedays I am up to facing that and other days it just needs to be shared until I am in a better place.