Sharing what helped me to detach - deterioration of self esteem

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Hi all !

Thought I'd share what made a difference to me in detaching from the bond with my uBPDxgf. This came about in sessions with my T, a 25 years experienced specialist in BPD.

Deterioration of self esteem

My T had borrowed my journals I kept writing during the r/s and after breakup. She picked out a few things from it:

T: You write i capital letters DAMN, DAMN, DAMN to express your frustration over things she'd done or the situation you had. Also many other examples of great frustration.

ME: Yeah... .

T: It is as if you saw/experienced things that you didn't accept, and yet somehow you accepted it anyhow.

ME: Yeah... .boundaries busted.

T: There are many instancies where you scribble something along the lines of 'first she said A, then B, while body language said C, and then she did D'.

ME: Yeah... .Contradictions. Very hard to follow.

T: That's the point - trying/wanting to follow/understand what comes from a loved partner is natural. That constitutes part of having a functional personality. It's automatic and normally we just do it. Following/understanding is like a process ending with an 'aha' when we 'get it' and integrate what was said with our already-there view of the world - yielding a 'OK, I know... .' in the self.

ME: Yeah, right. I remember being very focused, and there were many 'yeah but you just said... .' inside of me that only rarely really got expressed. I see clearly; the 'aha' never really occurred in those instancies. Very confusing and perplexing... .hmmm... .now I have a big 'aha'... .

T: Good. Now, when keeping that following/understanding capability focused on something that is inherently incomprehensible and not coming to the 'aha' moments, you remain in the following/understanding. There's no touche-base and integration with your already-there view of the world, and hence you get pulled out of it.

ME: wow yeah... .I can see how I lost my footing in my own world. And that's the confusion and perplexity of course.

T: Yes. And further, when you depart from you own view of the world, and not touch base for a while, the confusion and perplexity grows and the 'OK, I know' in the self don't happen.

ME: So in some way, I get drawn out of myself... .

T: Yeah, and while the self and its 'OK' is not involved, the self esteem deteriorates. Then boundaries are crossed like it happened with the ':)AMN' thing.

ME: So you mean that getting stuck in the following/understanding, not having the 'aha's increases confusion and perplexity while self esteem deteriorates. Then I can't keep up my boundaries

T: Mmm. And this is simply BECAUSE you are functional, in a incomprehensible contradictory context, which is run by the illness in her.

I feel like things are un-winding in me still 7 hours later as I write this post. Just wanna share what seems good for me. Hope it can make some sense to you.

NB the conversation as written down isn't exactly how it unfold in the session.

/Careman

[careman]

Hi all !

Thought I'd share what made a difference to me in detaching from the bond with my uBPDxgf. This came about in sessions with my T, a 25 years experienced specialist in BPD.

Deterioration of self esteem

My T had borrowed my journals I kept writing during the r/s and after breakup. She picked out a few things from it:

T: You write i capital letters DAMN, DAMN, DAMN to express your frustration over things she'd done or the situation you had. Also many other examples of great frustration.

ME: Yeah... .

T: It is as if you saw/experienced things that you didn't accept, and yet somehow you accepted it anyhow.

ME: Yeah... .boundaries busted.

T: There are many instancies where you scribble something along the lines of 'first she said A, then B, while body language said C, and then she did D'.

ME: Yeah... .Contradictions. Very hard to follow.

T: That's the point - trying/wanting to follow/understand what comes from a loved partner is natural. That constitutes part of having a functional personality. It's automatic and normally we just do it. Following/understanding is like a process ending with an 'aha' when we 'get it' and integrate what was said with our already-there view of the world - yielding a 'OK, I know... .' in the self.

ME: Yeah, right. I remember being very focused, and there were many 'yeah but you just said... .' inside of me that only rarely really got expressed. I see clearly; the 'aha' never really occurred in those instancies. Very confusing and perplexing... .hmmm... .now I have a big 'aha'... .

T: Good. Now, when keeping that following/understanding capability focused on something that is inherently incomprehensible and not coming to the 'aha' moments, you remain in the following/understanding. There's no touche-base and integration with your already-there view of the world, and hence you get pulled out of it.

ME: wow yeah... .I can see how I lost my footing in my own world. And that's the confusion and perplexity of course.

T: Yes. And further, when you depart from you own view of the world, and not touch base for a while, the confusion and perplexity grows and the 'OK, I know' in the self don't happen.

ME: So in some way, I get drawn out of myself... .

T: Yeah, and while the self and its 'OK' is not involved, the self esteem deteriorates. Then boundaries are crossed like it happened with the ':)AMN' thing.

ME: So you mean that getting stuck in the following/understanding, not having the 'aha's increases confusion and perplexity while self esteem deteriorates. Then I can't keep up my boundaries

T: Mmm. And this is simply BECAUSE you are functional, in a incomprehensible contradictory context, which is run by the illness in her.

I feel like things are un-winding in me still 7 hours later as I write this post. Just wanna share what seems good for me. Hope it can make some sense to you.

NB the conversation as written down isn't exactly how it unfold in the session.

/Careman

[jp254958]

Wait, you lost me.  Who is T?  Mr. T?   

Just kidding (I know it's the therapist.)

Awesome post as always.  I've been thinking about the person I was BEFORE the relationship.  After some real soul searching, I've realized that I was actually pretty healthy in terms of self-esteem, knowing what I wanted in a relationship, etc.  I was actually in pretty good shape mentally speaking.

There's no doubt I have some issues but I think I was in a place that I was able to have a healthy relationship.

The "mirroring" phase with my uexBPDgf had me thinking I finally met the person of my dreams.  So things moved very quickly - and I wanted them to.  There were a few small red flags that popped up but I thought at the time it was just because of her ongoing divorce (stress, etc.) so I wanted to be understanding and think that's not who she is as a person.  As time went on with more and more red flags popped up, my esteem slowly eroded away.  Like you, I wanted to make sense because I had genuine love/feelings for her... .but I'd hear A from her and she would do D.  Then I'd hear B and she would do D.  Then C and D. 

All the while, we were increasingly being devalued (is their ":)" behavior and appropriate constant or what?) and the D kept getting worse and worse. 

Very insightful stuff.  Thanks again for posting.

[pippobom]

Rockin' good stuff Careman, thanks for sharing it.

I'm wondering if there sometimes is something within us that maybe desires, even subconsciously, TO be drawn out of ourselves, even at the cost of a loss of self esteem, that a BPD person can trigger.

[careman]

Awesome post as always.  I've been thinking about the person I was BEFORE the relationship.  After some real soul searching, I've realized that I was actually pretty healthy in terms of self-esteem, knowing what I wanted in a relationship, etc.  I was actually in pretty good shape mentally speaking.

There's no doubt I have some issues but I think I was in a place that I was able to have a healthy relationship.

Thanks JP, I'll forward to T.

Yes same with me. With the help of my T I've come to realize that for myself too although I have been a total wreck after the r/s (improving a lot now 8 months after last breakup ). Much of the immense impact on us are coming from the traumatic r/s, and hence a lot it's new/fresh ugly stuff, meBEFORE vs meAFTER. T says it's got to be unwounded first, then it's time for me and my childhood stuff (and a good friend of mine, previous T for 14 years says the same; unwind - last in first out - hmmm... .LIFO therapy  ). There are many T's out there swinging the childhood bat in hard beats before anything else, and it just hurts... .I'm definitively willing to adress my stuff, but clearing the skies first so I can focus and own what's really mine - I press 'like' for my T.

The "mirroring" phase with my uexBPDgf had me thinking I finally met the person of my dreams.  So things moved very quickly - and I wanted them to.  There were a few small red flags that popped up but I thought at the time it was just because of her ongoing divorce (stress, etc.) so I wanted to be understanding and think that's not who she is as a person.  As time went on with more and more red flags popped up, my esteem slowly eroded away.  Like you, I wanted to make sense because I had genuine love/feelings for her... .but I'd hear A from her and she would do D.  Then I'd hear B and she would do D.  Then C and D. 

As for the mirroring check this: 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=187288.0;topicseen

/Careman

[careman]

Rockin' good stuff Careman, thanks for sharing it.

I'm wondering if there sometimes is something within us that maybe desires, even subconsciously, TO be drawn out of ourselves, even at the cost of a loss of self esteem, that a BPD person can trigger.

Thanks pippi (longstocking?  )

I've been a spiritual seeker and to some extent a 'finder', and I could talk about this for hours... .

I believe all of us humans somewhere inside carry a more or less hidden/visible longing to dissolve into universe, meet god, come home, etcetera as expressed in different wordings in different cultures around the spaceship we call earth. Looking to humans for such fulfillment is a lure. A human baited with BPD is a master lure.

Love is within. Check https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=187288.0;topicseen

/Careman

[ambi]

Can I press like for your T, too?  Thank you for sharing  your journey.  This made so much sense to me - getting drawn out of my own world, losing my self esteem, crossing boundaries.  Thanks for sharing!

[careman]

Thanks pippi (longstocking?  )

Pippo !

Sorry about that... .;p  ?

Careman

[sunny80]

Absolutely fantastic!

Thanks so much for sharing this!

This should be one of the posts in the lessons section, so everyone can read it every time.

I never have read something so simple and yet striking. Cause it explains everything, even to the point why at the end you had no boundaries, cause you've simply been a healthy person reacting to something ill.

Thank you, this also heals my toxic shame.

[careman]

Absolutely fantastic!

Thanks so much for sharing this!

This should be one of the posts in the lessons section, so everyone can read it every time.

I never have read something so simple and yet striking. Cause it explains everything, even to the point why at the end you had no boundaries, cause you've simply been a healthy person reacting to something ill.

Thank you, this also heals my toxic shame.

Wow. Thanks Sunny - I'll forward to T

You say 'healthy'. I wouldn't make a claim that I'm completely healthy, cause then I wouldn't have stayed - I stayed one year. But functional yes, but skewed, as opposed to dysfunctional where bits and pieces simply are missing - empathy, attachment, reciprocity, ability to learn from past mistakes... .aso... .

You may find my other 'sharing' threads helping, as it was for me.

/Careman

[sunny80]

Absolutely fantastic!

Thanks so much for sharing this!

This should be one of the posts in the lessons section, so everyone can read it every time.

I never have read something so simple and yet striking. Cause it explains everything, even to the point why at the end you had no boundaries, cause you've simply been a healthy person reacting to something ill.

Thank you, this also heals my toxic shame.

Wow. Thanks Sunny - I'll forward to T

You say 'healthy'. I wouldn't make a claim that I'm completely healthy, cause then I wouldn't have stayed - I stayed one year. But functional yes, but skewed, as opposed to dysfunctional where bits and pieces simply are missing - empathy, attachment, reciprocity, ability to learn from past mistakes... .aso... .

You may find my other 'sharing' threads helping, as it was for me.

/Careman

Yes of course, everyone of us who stayed and endured the madness, we do have issues that really need to be looked at, I already said something in the other thread "is it us who are the mentally ill".

But there is a difference between mentally ill, or personality disordered and having attachement issues, that need to be resolved.

But what your T said is very simple, and yet it explains alot, and it takes alot of the self blame and the toxic shame, that so many of us experience at the end, away.

[tnvol6]

Thanks for posting. Its hard for me to put this in writing but to wee it written makes sense. Thanks again

[nonhere]

Really good stuff!  Thanks for posting this!

It's so simple, and so powerful.  I've never seen the "hanging on" tendency described so well.  Got me thinking... .

[ksport]

Wow... .this post did hit me between the eyes.  I left my soon to be xpwBPD of 32 years... four months ago; my humor and memory are returning.  Now I am understanding why... thanks Careman for  the info.   

[careman]

Thanks for posting. Its hard for me to put this in writing but to wee it written makes sense. Thanks again

Really good stuff!  Thanks for posting this!

It's so simple, and so powerful.  I've never seen the "hanging on" tendency described so well.  Got me thinking... .

Wow... .this post did hit me between the eyes.  I left my soon to be xpwBPD of 32 years... four months ago; my humor and memory are returning.  Now I am understanding why... thanks Careman for  the info.   

Thanks for the appreciation and encouragement. Will forward to T. 

/Careman

[careman]

´

[must move on]

Yes another great insight in such a human way the way in which we are drawn in the destruction.

I know being apart from my exBPD now that when I think back to some conversations I think about none of it made any sense. I would go into such confusion in the end of the relationship that I became very disorientated from myself, life, my own sense of right and wrong was becoming warped.

As time goes on and I see the scares left within me I get so annoyed. It went on for so long but I was living in the dark about it. I knew nothing at all about personality disorders!

Thanks to the Boards family I am slowly recovering. 

[careman]

Yes another great insight in such a human way the way in which we are drawn in the destruction.

I know being apart from my exBPD now that when I think back to some conversations I think about none of it made any sense. I would go into such confusion in the end of the relationship that I became very disorientated from myself, life, my own sense of right and wrong was becoming warped.

As time goes on and I see the scares left within me I get so annoyed. It went on for so long but I was living in the dark about it. I knew nothing at all about personality disorders!

Thanks to the Boards family I am slowly recovering. 

MMO !

Me neither. Didn't know about personality disorders, and even less about the immense impact a disordered person can have on another. Maybe not knowing is a prerequisite for such engagement. I certainly hope my new hard won 'knowing about it' serves as a vaccin against any further engagements with PDs.

Sometimes this whole episode and everyone else's ditto, considering all the collective pain and years of hardships, makes me wonder why this 'knowing' is not part of public common sense and awareness, at the same level of clarity as we can tell - 'in this country we have right hand traffic'.

/Careman

[careman]

hmmm... .  

[zaqsert]

Careman, thanks for sharing this!  I just came across your post, and the timing is perfect.  I have a session with my T later today, in which I specifically want to work on my self-esteem/self-confidence and my ability to focus on things that I need to get done.

My D2 makes it really easy to focus on her when I'm with her.  But when it comes to work, I went through a phase earlier this year when I was terribly ineffective.  I certainly can't afford that, short term or long term (it's a small world out there, bad performance here will make it harder for future jobs too).  The feeling has been a combination of not being grounded and lacking the self-confidence that I can even do the job half-well.  Logically, I know that I've done it before and can do it again, but emotionally it's totally different.  Fortunately, it has been getting better, generally, but I still have days when I find it hard to concentrate and get things done.  And that still affects my overall performance on the job.

Your own insignts (and your T's) helped me figure out some of what I think I need to work on, and just in time for my session with my T today!

[careman]

Careman, thanks for sharing this!  I just came across your post, and the timing is perfect.  I have a session with my T later today, in which I specifically want to work on my self-esteem/self-confidence and my ability to focus on things that I need to get done.

My D2 makes it really easy to focus on her when I'm with her.  But when it comes to work, I went through a phase earlier this year when I was terribly ineffective.  I certainly can't afford that, short term or long term (it's a small world out there, bad performance here will make it harder for future jobs too).  The feeling has been a combination of not being grounded and lacking the self-confidence that I can even do the job half-well.  Logically, I know that I've done it before and can do it again, but emotionally it's totally different.  Fortunately, it has been getting better, generally, but I still have days when I find it hard to concentrate and get things done.  And that still affects my overall performance on the job.

Your own insignts (and your T's) helped me figure out some of what I think I need to work on, and just in time for my session with my T today!

How was your session?

/Careman

[Cmjo]

Somehow I missed this post that was posted in November, since I left BPDh last year, I have had some revealing comments from how people saw us or me during the relationship, our pedeatrician said i seemed permanently "crushed".

So as Careman quotes: the therapist says you end up being pulled out of your world.

Yes thats so true.  First time this happened was about 10 years ago, the kids were babies, i was the happiest mumin the world, and suddenly exBPDh started obsessing about how I should go back to work, oh by the way though I have a professional qualification I was in a foreign country, new language, we live in the suburbs, no parents to help babysit, daughter who had health problems from birth... .   so I would stammer but but yes I want to work, but not quite yet, I am starting to get my hand back in, its not easy... .   and suddenly like a slap in the face, the man I loved would say : you came to this country intending to live off me and be a housewife forever... .   er excuse me do you know what a strong and intelligent person and hard working and conscientious person I am... .   I was in my former life anyway, how can you claim to love me and tell me things about me which are hurtful and ridicuolous?  Why why? I could not believe it, but so wanted our family to work I cried a lot about it, and then buried my feelings. That was just the start of years of frustration, and him projecting on to me his dissatisfaction with life and feelings of failure. I left him and am now running my own law firm. He is furious and says where have you found the energy... .   I say I always had it but it was... .   crushed.


"There's no touche-base and integration with your already-there view of the world, and hence you get pulled out of it."

This has been a real eye opener.

[byasliver]

Joining the lot in saying a big "thanks" for sharing this. I am an odd bird in that I am emotionally sensitive but also a very logical thinker. When uBPDh and I would engage in these horrible circular arguments, I would end up so hurt and confused. I couldn't get anything to make sense: not his words, his behavior, nothing! Now I understand how I was losing myself through that. Funny thing, he kept telling me I was confused because I wasn't really listening to him which only further ate away at my self esteem. You sharing this has put into words what my mind has been coming to realize: I couldn't understand him because he isn't fully understandable right now - I haven't failed... .   just need to approach it all from a different direction - one that focuses on doing what is healthy and rational no matter what he says/does.

Thanks again for sharing! 

[Shadowlands]

Everyone has said it already in terms of being a brilliant post... .  

For a long time, I could not work out why my self esteem crashed a month after I broke up with my ex and now this makes sense... .   because I was in a world where reality, logic and understanding was out the window and being replaced by manipulation through fear, obligation and guilt, I was actually losing myself whilst IN the relationship as opposed to when I came out of it. Before the relationship, I had bags of self esteem, confidence and everything else.

The full effects of the damage that was done to me could not be seen until I was out of the FOG which lead to my desperation to get her back for a long while because I didn't recognise what boundaries were for a long while.

The irony is, if I had played it cool, respected her boundaries and not been so pushy, I would have easily got her back by now (and almost did) and I would be one week into a marriage that was doomed!

Someone must be smiling down on me... .  

[zaqsert]

Thanks for asking, Careman.

Byasilver, your experience feels so familiar too!

My session was really good.  My T picked up on something that I hadn't though of before.  I also tend to be emotionally sensitive and a very logical thinker.  The problem was that I learned to doubt my own logical mind.  This killed my self-confidence.  Negative emotions further clouded my ability to focus on logical approaches, which degraded my self-confidence even more.

Sorry for the long post.  For anyone interested in more of the details, here goes... .  

My parents divorced when I was very young.  My mom remarried.  For years my brother and I visited our dad on vacations from school.

My dad was very narcissistic.  While with my dad, I used to use whatever I was able to figure out about his triggers and lots of logic to stay out of the line of fire.  As my T put it, my mind served me well.  Unfortunately, I picked up other defenses that helped me then but that I had to work through and get rid of more recently in therapy.  Among them, I buried my own emotions and desires, and continued to focus more and more on logic and on being a "good kid".

Now, for the past few years with my uBPDw, I kept trying to use logic (my mind, to use my T's word) to figure out situations with my wife.  But more often than not, it backfired, and over time I began to doubt my mind's abilities more and more.  At work, where I need to use my logical mind more than anything else, I doubted my abilities too.  I suppose I wan't able to "split" my perceptions of myself in each different situation.

Earlier this year I found bpdfamily and started to learn about BPD.  So much of what I had been through started to make much more logical sense.  I mentioned to my T that I keep coming back to these boards because it feels really good and helpful to hear similar stories from others and to feel support and validation from others.  She suggested that it also helps feed my logical mind and helps me realize that my logical mind is still there, good, and functional.

Interestingly, my problem at work tends to be more that I procrastinate, and I worry about not being able to accomplish what I need to.  But when I finally do start, I am able to get "in the zone" and plow through it.

So for me, it also seems to be that over the years my logical mind failed me in my relationship with my wife, and that in turn chipped away at my self-confidence in all areas of life, since I had been used to relying on my logical mind for lots and lots of things.  Now I am finally understanding that my logical mind still works, but I was just operating under a whole wrong set of assumptions when dealing with my wife.

This been helping me to detach from the craziness with my wife and also start focusing more (and better) at work.  Now I just have a whole bunch of work to catch up on that I let slide in the past few months.

Another interesting side note... .     For months I worried about what my boss thought of me.  I felt terrible thinking that he probably thought I was incompetent at my job, but if he only knew and understood why... .     Something clicked just a few weeks ago, and while I feel a lot less bad about what my wife thinks of me, I also started feeling a lot less bad about what my boss might think of me.  I think it started to sink in that I do not have any direct control over their feelings.  I can only control my actions, and hope that over time my boss starts seeing the improvement.  Being able to move this bad emotion out of the way is also helping me to start relying on my logical mind again.

[careman]

where have you found the energy... .   I say I always had it but it was... .   crushed.

Before the relationship, I had bags of self esteem, confidence and everything else.

I learned to doubt my own logical mind.  This killed my self-confidence.  Negative emotions further clouded my ability to focus on logical approaches, which degraded my self-confidence even more.

C,S,Z !

Seems we share a view of our self image - meBEFORE vs meAFTER - wherein the meBEFORE is pretty well off in the self-esteem account whereas the meAFTER is a story of bankruptcy. That holds true for me - meBEFORE alive, healthy, esteem, etc and meAFTER crushed, wreck, passive, confused etc.

I think we are testifying to the fact that ONE (dysfunctional) individual can have an IMMENSE impact on another. And I believe that that impact is temporary, and we'll revert to the meBEFORE as we detach. However the bond is strong and it takes time.

I like to view the 'experience' as if I have been in an 'environment'/'circumstance' in which functional/healthy relational parts of me have run amok. And in the case of these crazy-making A,B,C,D conversations it is as if the functional/healthy willingness to understand gets sucked into the void of the inherently incomprehensible.

Incomprehensibility (in them) attracts understanding (in us)

That attraction creates a bond, my part being the 'understanding', and when run amok - a very strong bond.

Detaching and reverting to the meBEFORE then seems to be about being a little less understanding.

Understanding that 'understanding' is part of the entanglement, I can sometimes be a bit envious of those not overly concerned with understanding, but rather say 'oh this seems a f*ced up chick/guy, I better move on'.

/Careman

[careman]

 -

[careman]

I'm amazed!

I check in here at the family pretty seldomly now as two years has passed after the breakup, and almost 1,5 years since I wrote the original post of this thread. And the read counter still ticks. Now over 3090. But no comments/posts?

Amazed and puzzled

/Careman

[Cardinals in Flight]

I just read the whole thing.  It would be redundant to say much of anything  other than "oh hEll yeah" to almost everything. 

I will say my own journals were both fabulous learning tools and huge embarrassments! Omg Id die if anyone read them 

Growing up is hard

CiF

[Stjarna]

Oh my gosh, Careman!  This hit me right between the eyes too.  Thank you so much for taking the time to type it all out and share it with us. 

I left a 40-year marriage a year ago, and still I have struggled to fully detach, to move on, have questioned myself and my part in staying for so long, et cetera et cetera, like many members on this board (except perhaps I win the booby prize for staying the longest, ).  It's a wonder I have any self esteem at all!  It was a miracle I was able to extricate myself when I did. 

I am a spiritual seeker too, and I had gotten to the point in my journey that there was a screaming from deep down in my gut of something malaligned, something I needed to be free from, a screaming voice that could no longer be ignored... . at any cost.  In my conscious mind, I had so many self-doubts, so much confusion, and such an emotional rollercoaster to ride in those early months.  I have slowly worked my way through much of it with the help of therapy and other beautiful thought-provoking posts on this board, but the information I have just read gave me a huge "Aha" for myself and another swipe on my inner windshield to allow me to see more clearly the dynamic that has been happening for me.

Thank you, thank you!

[jp254958]

Careman, been a while. I'm almost never on anymore but wanted to check how you are in your recovery.  Still thinking about her?  Moved on?  Learned more about yourself?  Still seeing your therapist?