High Functioning BPDs & Counseling

[EmpathyBoy]

Hi all!  Hi!

I just had one of those counselling sessions that you sometimes need to be careful with when dealing with a high functioning BPD or NPD.  In my case the BPD is my sister and the NPD is my father and they wanted to have a "family" counselling session with a person they picked which not too surprisingly turned into a reality bending character attack or assassination.

The person was not an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist... .which I wonder if my father specifically picked a person who would be less likely to identify the behavioral aspects of each of their respective conditions.

I mostly played it cool... .my father started... .then my sister and in their versions... .I'm the bad guy ruining their lives and the family.  Classic role reversal.  I sat their quietly and listened, but when it was my time to talk I was constantly interrupted and corrected by them.  I wasn't very impressed with the guy since I would have thought a good psychologist or counselor would have asked them to stop interrupting me, but maybe he was trying to just assess the situation.  It was easy to make my point that neither of them seemed to think I was allowed to have my own opinion... .let alone that their views might have been skewed.

I had not really planned strategically, but since we were unable to speak with him separately and I am not really sure he has the skills to even help my sister... .what was the point in triggering her.  Being tag teamed by a BPD and NPD is no fun, but I think he saw the bullying somewhat and the explosive anger beneath my sister's baloney demeanor.

Be warned... .high functioning BPD's can turn the tables on you in such situations because the truth and reality are totally flexible to them.  I guess I could have searched for a psychologist on my own, but if nailed down to specifics or caught in their contradictory logic it can be made clear that they have some issues.

I really could not deal with any more or excess stress at this point... .so I figured I would try it anyways and I somewhat gave up on trying to save my sister until she falls flat 5-10 years from now.  I will try a few more times considering he seemed to catch on to some of it, but I was ill prepared to deal.

Is it worth the time?  I cannot say, but considering they are/were blackmailing me with not being invited to the family Xmas again... .I figured I would go along even though it is obvious manipulation and emotional blackmail.

Please share any thoughts on dealing with such a high functioning BPD in counseling situations either from first hand experience or otherwise.  I know her life could improve if she was able to be properly diagnosed, but I do not think this unqualified guy has the skills.

[GeekyGirl]

Do you think your sister and father would be open to meeting with a different counselor that you could interview and choose together? From what you've said, you have some serious reservations about how helpful this particular counselor is.

Is it worth the time?  I cannot say, but considering they are/were blackmailing me with not being invited to the family Xmas again... .I figured I would go along even though it is obvious manipulation and emotional blackmail.

I haven't had any personal experience in this area, but I'd say it's a big deal that your sister and father are open to the idea of counseling. IMO, any learnings you gain from this experience would make it worthwhile. You'll at least learn more about how your sister and father think, which will help you interact with them better going forward.

[Gerda]

I see a lot of issues with my family in that article you linked to. My mom was first in couple's therapy with her (now ex-) husband, who was a sex addict (and I imagine probably had NPD), and then in family therapy with my sister. From my sister's perspective it does sound like she managed to turn everything into blaming the husband and my sister for all her problems.

I wasn't involved with the therapy myself at the time because I live hundreds of miles away (yay!), though I would have gone if I could have.

Now my mom is in individual therapy with that same counselor, and from what I can tell it's all ranting about how bad her family is. She's told me things like her therapist thinks I'm not supportive enough of her, that her therapist thinks I'm being unreasonable, and even forwarded me emails between her and her therapist talking about me.

Getting another counselor might be helpful, and it also might help if you can talk to a therapist individually too, either the same one you're doing family therapy with, or a different one. When my mom was doing therapy along with my husband and sister, they all got to talk to the therapist individually as well as a group, though in this case it seems to have not helped. But now my sister and I both have our own separate therapists.

My therapist keeps telling me you can't fix a relationship where only one person is willing to do any work. It reminds me of back when I was in therapy before about a boyfriend I had. He managed to convince me all the problems in our relationship were my fault, and actually demanded I go to therapy so I can get better. I did, figured out actually he was doing a lot of things wrong too, talked to him about it and tried to get him to actually put in some work too, and shortly afterward he dumped me.   I'm sure it was because me going to therapy didn't get him the results he wanted.

[Cantor]

I was in a similar situation with my uBPD mom a while back while my sister and I were in the process of getting ready to move out. She determined that we must all see a therapist (who she had previously seen a few times) to fix the family because she was convinced that we were being brainwashed to leave. My sister and I decided to go along for a similar reason,  and to "keep the peace" so she would feel validated. Part of me was hoping that the person we were seeing would be able to explain to her why we wanted to leave.

Turns out, the counselor was not willing to listen to us at all. She was constantly interrupting, and would also speak with our mom about us in third person, in front of us. Pretty invalidating, abusive. Knowing what I know now, I probably should have looked her up and done my research and been more wary of going along. She also wasn't an accredited psychologist, had studied theology. Essentially it became a full fledged, angry attack by the both of them on my sister and me. After that, I gave up on any sort of therapy together with her.

I'm not sure how things would play out seeing someone who is nonpartisan? Have you met with the therapist alone to get a feel for what he thinks? I like the article you posted, I think it is exactly right, I recognized a lot of the responses in my own experience.

[EmpathyBoy]

Update:

I missed session two because I was tied up at work.  My father apparently chatted with the counselor on his own. (again he has zero psychology degrees... .likely easy to manipulate for a skilled NPD like my father)

I left town for a work and then went to a session this morning with my sister and father.  They changed they entire line of argument and manipulation and they stupid idiot counselor was too dim to notice (or in cahoots... .likely connection to my father).

First time my sister was more honest in claiming and listing a distorted and twisted version of my past sins against her life with a few extra lies to make it sound worse... .even if it still sounded a tad silly.  She honestly showed he still anger and inability to forgive or let anything go and the guy said that's what adults have to do to forge or fix any relationship.

This time my sister decided to take the past baloney fantasy twisting even further making me sound like some drugged out dude who was borderline postal on that Cops show... .but claim it was potentially the present and it was about her being concerned and not about her being angry.

I held my cool, but I obviously could not take it seriously and it was totally not genuine and the guy seemed really stupid to not see how insincere it was.  Did he not take any notes last time?  This forced me to defend both my past and my present and thus be claimed to be defense as my father and sister were only worried about my well being and mental stability.

What total B.S. and of course... .don't say I did not see this possibility coming... .even if I did not see the full twist in advance.  I pointed out that the real problem was her being angry and unable to let go of any anger or the past and her textbook BPD reactions to little things out of control (without stating BPD).  I mentioned a few of the trivial things she flipped out about and stated how she yells and loses her anger at people at least behind closed doors and even did a little in the waiting room when I just asked how she was feeling.

As strange as it may seem or not so strange since my father was paying for him and also buttered him up separately this joker took their side (2 vs. 1) and said the problem was that I had to take responsibility for my negative impact on their life when I was in an awful toxic workplace bullying/mobbing situation and instead of being supportive or empathetic... .they were just inconsiderate, needy and harassed me at work or home over trivial computer crap.  They banned me from Xmas after I lost the battle at work and my job and claim to be some caring individuals worried about me.

Meanwhile I am doing pretty well at my new job since Aug and am now in my new apartment since Oct and strangely do better without as much interaction with them and their drama.  My sister at 43 is still working on her first undergraduate college degree... .that she started when she was 19 and has taken courses every year almost continuously (think she took 1 year off).  My mother then father paid for this infinite non-education, she does not have a part time job and has never really had a full time job and may never have one either.

She turned literally flush red with anger over her face and neck when I pointed out these things and that she was not really the functioning adult she implied and really was in no position to point fingers at me.  I truthfully said I want her to move on with her life and be happy no matter what and I am not sure what it would take to help her with her issues.

I agreed to go to one more, but I think my mother is right that this is really just some weird pretext so they can have a justification for cutting me out of the family and/or my father's will and claim that it was because I didn't get help.

I think my father purposefully picked a guy who is not an psychologist, especially a masters as the counselor I see as they might have spotted either my father's NPD or my sister's BPD... .and perhaps got her some real help, but that's doubtful now.  It is sad as my father's behavior indicates he refuses to deal with the truth or thinks she has leverage over him now and has caved.  She does give him more attention than I ever could and NPD's love attention... .good or bad.

[EmpathyBoy]

My therapist keeps telling me you can't fix a relationship where only one person is willing to do any work.

So true and it's worse if the therapist or in this case merely a social worker trained family counselor takes the unbalanced approach or one side and does not even attempt to probe if the issues and concerns brought up by me in this case have any validity.  I tried to make the same point and thought that if it was about mending fences their would need to be work on both sides, but apparently not.

If he had pressed my sister or my father on some of the specifics I brought up on my sister's inability to cope with life or on her story it would unravel or she would get upset.  I am amazed she held her temper as much as she did, but the anger was evident by the red on her face and neck... .which she then claimed was an unrelated health issues... .B.S.

[EmpathyBoy]

Turns out, the counselor was not willing to listen to us at all. She was constantly interrupting, and would also speak with our mom about us in third person, in front of us. Pretty invalidating, abusive. Knowing what I know now, I probably should have looked her up and done my research and been more wary of going along. She also wasn't an accredited psychologist, had studied theology. Essentially it became a full fledged, angry attack by the both of them on my sister and me. After that, I gave up on any sort of therapy together with her.

This joker was also not a real therapist or psychologist with zero credentials in that area.  His degrees were in social work... .not that there is anything wrong with that, but clearly out of his depth when dealing with manipulative NPD and BPDs tag teaming and he joins in instead against me.

Brutal and abusive today and I was not certain of my sister and father's agenda, but I think I speculate below.  My sister seems to want to hurt me they way she and BPD's feel hurt and completely changed her story and tactics and this guy did not even notice.  I might point it out next time, but I think that is it... .I will give it one more try.

I was bothered that this guy did not take seriously my comments regarding the two of them interrupting me last time to "correct" what I said when they did not like it while I was considerate and did not interrupt them.  I mentioned the bullying and tag-team should not be allowed in session and he stated "what bullying".  He's either ignorant, bias or both and my father might be a direct or indirect acquainted with him.

I think part of the selection is tactical... .BPD's or NPD's know there is something fundamentally wrong with themselves on some level and actively avoid anyone who might diagnose it.  Sad because I was hoping something like this might lead to help for my sister, but alas it is as I feared.

One more kick at the can and then I'm done with this baloney!

[PaGuy]

I'm really sorry you have to go through this now with a poor therapist.   I, my now-wife and my uBPDm went to a psychologist a few times.  He did let us argue back and forth to.watch us.  He only stepped in when my mother said things that he knew were patantly false... .and only to question the statement.  The point of going was to try to get my mother some help and get things to a manageable point before my wife and my wedding.

My mother took everything he said and twisted it to make me look like the bad guy.  I think she only went to "prove" she was normal.  She stopped going after our wedding.  I think if we all kept going, my mother would have been diagnosed.

It sounds to me like your father and sister are abusing the point of therapy.  If you can, you might want to find a professional counselor who all three can agree to go to... .  Otherwise, you are probably going to keep getting teamed up on and they will probably object in disordered ways... .

[Gerda]

My therapist keeps telling me you can't fix a relationship where only one person is willing to do any work.

So true and it's worse if the therapist or in this case merely a social worker trained family counselor takes the unbalanced approach or one side and does not even attempt to probe if the issues and concerns brought up by me in this case have any validity.  I tried to make the same point and thought that if it was about mending fences their would need to be work on both sides, but apparently not.

The lady my mom is seeing is a social worker too.

Mom just sent my husband an email all about how she and her therapist simply cannot, for the life of them, figure out why her whole family has turned against her and think she's anything other than a wonderful mother. They can't think of ONE SINGLE THING she's possibly doing wrong to make people react this way!

Followed by about 10 pages of text about all the things that my husband is doing wrong and how he's contributing to the situation. Because apparently my relationship with her was wonderful and perfect before he showed up and turned me against her.

I think this is an important lesson to us. Now I realize it's pretty common for people with PD's to use therapy as an opportunity to justify their behavior, and get therapists to turn into yes-men (and women) for them.

They don't go into therapy and say, "What am I doing wrong?" (at least not honestly). Instead they go into therapy merely to get someone to give them sympathy and let them vent about how horrible everyone else is.

And then mom complains that therapy doesn't work. 

[EmpathyBoy]

I was correct... .  it ended up being a waste of time and a scam for potentially numerous ulterior motives!

Firstly since my BPD sister was backed by my NPD father in an unfair fantasy tag-team with and ill equipped counselor without the skills to detect or deal with two PD people... .  it was a 2 vs. 1 or 3 vs. 1 bullying session for the most part.  When I defended, explained or attempted to correct their factual errors (aka lies) or exaggerations it did make it seem like they were right in some ways.

My father refused to acknowledge my sister had any issues and and did not acknowledge when I corrected the counselor when he implied we were all functional adults and I indicated my sister might not be. 

She is 43 years old, still working on her first university degree after taking it continuously since she was 20... .  19 if you count her being bounced out of the first school.  She has not had a full time job with the exception of 2-years she "ran" my mother's store (which is another story... .  the inheritance fight part1) and not a job, part time or otherwise for over 15-years straight.  She now rarely leaves the house and spends far too much time on FB with here 600+ "friends".

In the end they decided we not go back for a 4th session... .  and then used the lack of progress we made there (when they lied continuously) as their justification(proof) to exclude or ban me from the extended family Xmas.  They twisted this and said this to half the relatives too and also potentially did things like cutting me out of the will too.  My sister was and is absolutely loopy about my father's money which she considers hers.

Even if it was a one on one situation... .  be very wary!  It can become something they walk around saying... .  they had to go do counselling because of YOU and then just add a whole pack of lies.  Usually the one that spreads the rumors first wins and by the time you hear about them(because you protected their reputations)... .  you look like the bad guy and any defense just reaffirms the baloney they already said.