Advice for involving Adult children

[Awakecj]

I've been separated from my BPD husband of 32 years for over 6 months now, in the process of high conflict divorce. I have wanted to keep our adult children out of the middle of the conflict and have been fairly successful until yesterday.

My strategy for keeping sane throughout this divorce has been to hire a really good lawyer, expensive, and discontinue communication with my husband. He has pleaded with me through text to try and work things out together to save costs but I haven't been able to trust him or myself to do this. I've pretty much maintained the NC but yesterday was informed he contacted my dad and during the conversation pleaded his case of innocence in our divorce in multiple ways. My dad recently had a stroke and this information served as a major trigger for me and very unhealthy response ensued. Shaking wildly, I sent a text to my brother, called him a traitor because the information my husband had received came from him, sent a bolded message to my husband to not ever contact my dad again, and finally sent a text to all three of our adult children declaring I would no longer remain silent and this is the truth about their dad, he kicked me out of the house, is trying to ruin me financially, etc.

After the rage, I felt I had an emotional hangover. It sure gave me some things to ponder about myself, such as what was the value in it for me, who did I hurt, how could I do things different next time... .and a lot of feelings of shame.

At this point, none of our kids have responded to me, they probably don't know what to say. Maybe they deleted before they read, I don't know but I feel I owe them an apology.

Any thoughts?

[tog]

Hi Awakecj,

Glad you found this board!  Hi!

The problem with trying to "keep the kids out of the middle" is that your soon-to-be-ex will put them squarely there, and by telling them lies about you. I think it's best to say something along the lines of ( maybe to your entire family):

H and I are in the middle of a nasty divorce. I am concerned (or aware if you know for sure) that he might be saying untrue things about me and the circumstances of our break-up. You are all very important to me and while I don't want to involve you in our fight, I want you to feel free to talk to me if you have concerns about some of the things he says I did.  My goal is for all of you (the children, anyway) to be able to have a loving relationship with both me and Dad and I don't want you to feel caught in the middle.

Or something to that effect. Of the three, do you have a sense who will stay neutral, who will believe you and who will believe him?

[Matt]

I would suggest you have a very open conversation with each of the kids, or all of them together, and just tell them what's going on.  But don't try to get them to take sides.  Just factual information so they will know what's happening.

[Rubies]

We have no choices in what the BPDs do to our children.  All we can do is continue to protect ourselves by not feeding them information they will pass on to be used against us.  There is nothing I can say or do or show my adult daughters, not HIS, MINE, who previously hated his guts, to win them over at this time without risking the safety and security of my youngest, vulnerable child.

Since we MARRIED these BPD people in total trust, we KNOW first hand how skilled they are at manipulating the emotions of others.  Don't even try to undo the damage to your family at this time.  Take care of your legal protections FIRST, give nothing to no one. 

When it is over, then try to work through with your kids and family.  Don't let them emotionally spin you out through your legal proceedings.  That's what BPDs want, to inflict as much pain as possible on everyone.

[Awakecj]

Matt & Tog,

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll definitely keep them in mind when I encounter these challenging episodes. I have three children, two are really on to their dad and one is a bit in denial but I believe they all think he is somewhat of a jerk.

Rubies,

"Since we MARRIED these BPD people in total trust, we KNOW first hand how skilled they are at manipulating the emotions of others."

Thanks - you are right, I believe it is all about the manipulation and I have no control over what he passes to my children.  I'm sure that's what I get caught up with, is the lack of control. And wow, yes, they are masters in what they do and are trying to accomplish.

"That's what BPDs want, to inflict as much pain as possible on everyone."

WOW - Exactly! Following my text to my children, I also sent a text to my brother sharing my disappoint because he seems to be siding with my husband. I really believe my husband knows that to manipulate my family member is to cause me more pain. The only thing is my brother is so gullible he seems to fall for the victim story from my BPD husband and shared information about our divorce with him. I have notified my family that no divorce info should be shared with my brother because it has been fed directly to my husband. To further protect myself, I'll keep the important information to myself and deal with the fallout with my children and family AFTER the divorce. Thank you!

[Rubies]

For months before my BPDxh left he was in full manipulation mode...   He was able to get my adult DDs and a couple of my neighbors to back him and two-face me.  When DDs couldn't get anything from me, they pumped youngest DD for information.  She called them the Spy Sisters.

Divorce over, I got custody of DD with disabilities.  They did not stop, thinking they could change it to juvenile court with Bad Mommy stuff.  It was whack, angered and hurt DDwD.  We shut it down.

Now as DDwD approaches her 18th BD, we have to consider guardianship.  We've kept out mouths shut.  Total emo spun out adult DD, the one most hurt and manipulated by BPDxh has gone through my extended family and I got blindsided by a cousin's BF NONE OF US HAVE EVER MET!   Since I had a couple drinks in me believing I was drinking with people I trust, I tipped my hand.   That was a big mistake.   None of these people were around to see what x was like, or spoke to DDwD on what she wants or needs.  All emo reactions originating from BPDx, 3rd and 4th hand.

BPDxh and adult DD are back in full manipulation overdrive on DDwD, and character assasination against me in my community.  Both DDwD and I are beyond stressed.    She wants relationship with boundaries.   I don't think you can have it with BPDs, she will have to figure that on her own.  All I can do is give her safelty and security and Truth.

Once she is protected, I do hope to establish relationships with my adult children.  Until that time, I am maitaining NC with entire family.  It sucks being this paranoid, but I try not to make the same mistake twice.

[Rose1]

Be careful with adult guardianship.  Aust laws are different maybe but I was advised to let it go as I couldn't guarantee that a guardian appointed would be me! Even though D and I both would have wanted that. D is now 23 an no issues have come up - NC with her BPDf as is her older sister. She is able to say what she wants and where to live but I handle her finances by separate arrangement through social security and am her advocate with disability services - she has signed forms stating that after verbally being asked. My will leaves money in trust for her indefinitely. So far the only other thing that could come up is medical - she had a card stating her conditions, choices in medical treatment signed by her and witnessed, and for the rest, advice was to coach her prior to any scheduled treatment. She had surgery on her foot a couple of years ago due to a fall and with help was able to manage to communicate her wishes quite well. It was also obvious that she wanted me as her "translator" (language is poor) and that was accepted by the medical community very well. Her medical choice card was very useful and accepted as part of her record. No one bothered her about phoning her father etc etc which they would likely have done if she was under 18.

However, if an over 18 year old is out of control, won't take meds etc then that is an entirely different circumstance and would need intervention. I would get a lawyers advice in either case. I spoke to an adult guardianship advocate - mostly deal with elderly, and got the above advice from him, and had it confirmed by a lawyer.

Once you know what the law is in your area you can make choices with knowledge. Adult guardianship here is unclear and may only apply to certain situations. Power of attorney may not work either as the signatories have to have capacity and that can be argued. In effect you have the right to bring up your disabled daughter's child but not the right to put her on birth control - that sort of situation.

Rose

[Rubies]

Thanks Rose.  DD's biggest issue is she wishes to have a limited relationship with her BPDf, but she is unable to set her own boundaries that he will respect.   If he leaves the state with her AGAIN, she does not believe she is strong enough to call 911 and report her kidnapping.  She won't get in a car with him without her cell phone, and he deleted her safe person fro the contact list. 

I have her school, her therapist and the judge backing me.

The BPDxh is not qualified for guardianship because of the documentation of stealing thousands of $$$ from other DD and I.  He is hounding her not to do guardianship.  He has no ties to the area.

[Rose1]

I see your point. However, how is adult guardianship going to stop him from kidnapping her again? I think her best defense is exactly what you said - not getting in his car without her phone. If you were her guardian all you can do is go to the police and hope they get her back. Prevention is better than cure.

My D also would not be capable of going to police but she sure is capable of screaming her lungs out 

It sounds to me that your exBPDh uses her condition to overpower her. Maybe instead, try and organise some sort of supervised visitation arrangement that suits her - even if it is at McDonald's in public for coffee. And teach her to say no. I had to teach my oldest at 16 (no disability but normal 16) that she should have her phone with her and if she felt uncomfortable, walk out and phone me or go to the toilet and phone me but never phone me in front of her father as he would likely destroy her phone if he was already in a rage or possibly restrain her.  Takes a fair bit of work and role play sometimes but worth it in the end.

Rose

edited - that wasn't meant instead of guardianship but some ideas that helped with my kids

[Matt]

Some cell phones have GPS features, so you can see where she is from your phone.  Ask your carrier (like Verizon or whoever) - they probably have that.

Is she capable of texting you, subtly, "Mom, I'm in Dad's car and he says we're going to City.  I saw a sign just now that said 'Route 1' and another one that said 'City 200 miles'."

The bottom line is, she should not be alone with someone who can't be trusted to keep her where she is supposed to be.

[Rubies]

The one thing BPDxh is absolutely terrified of is jail.  He will push the limits, but he will respect court orders.  He knows I won't hesitate going to the judge, the judge assured him he wouldn't hesitate signing a warrant, local cops have fought over who got to serve restaining orders. 

He also won't go too far away from his whackmommy.  In court there was an audible gasp when it was revealed they were mother/son.  Everyone, including the judge assumed she was The Other Woman.  Dang near sitting in each other's laps holding hands.

BPDxh pays for DD's cell phone.  DD is not capable of texting, she has no fine motor skills.  She starts vocational rehab soon to work on that.

We did talk briefly yesterday before her birthday party, her first party ever, about getting off the crazy train.  We discussed going supervised visits only here in town in public or with an agency.  She really likes that idea.  It's finally sinking in she has no obligation to spend weekends with him or get in his car or listen to his endless BS. 

The visitation order has ended. 

She had to spend 3 weekends a month with him, every other week in the summer and every other holiday.  Most of that time was spent in her room with her imaginary friend to get away from his endless overcontrolling bullPLEASE READ.

Her goals are to build a good life for herself in this small community using her gifts and strengths, not lean on the disabilities.  She gets the whackdaddy totally works against her Happy Place.

I need to help her learn about the FOG   

I'll give her a few days, she's still dancing on Cloud 9 from her awesome party.  I think she has a Hot Jock sweetheart now.  They sang la Bamba together and he gave her a hug when he left.  I love all those kids!

[NorthernGirl]

Now as DDwD approaches her 18th BD, we have to consider guardianship. 

DH is in the midst of guardianship battles with his uBPD ex-wife related to SS18, who has development delays. After a year of email "discussions", attempts at mediation and tens of thousands of dollars worth of lawyer bills -- they are close to an agreement. I have my opinions on the agreement (I wouldn't sign a joint agreement with her if it were me) but DH's lawyer has strongly suggested DH would not get sole guardianship despite mountains of evidence showing something isn't quite right with uBPD. The L says that many guardianship judges just aren't used to dealing with personality disorders (and in this case, it is undiagnosed so would be heresay) and if it looks as though they have been jointly raising SS18, the judge will say that should continue.

Meanwhile, DH's ex has been in full manipulation mode. She has put huge pressure on SS18 to say he supports whatever she wants (so SS18 will tell the guardianship officials he wants both his Mom and Dad as his guardian, but tells DH that he only says that so his mom won't yell at him.) She got SS20 (who was in an addiction treatment center at the time) to sign a document supporting her position. Interestingly, she has never really asked for sole guardianship -- just demanded joint guardianship in the way that best suits her that particular day/week. It is clear she is enjoying the drama and the fight, and wants to continue to have ties to DH to battle him. After months of her agreeing to things then changing her mind over and over, DH pushed his lawyer to put more pressure on his ex, so when it became clear DH was willing to go before a judge, DH's ex has suddenly decided she is prepared to sign an agreement. Most of the agreement is exactly what DH proposed a year ago.

The thing that never gets addressed is that DH's ex is likely unwell and has historically made some bad decisions related to SS18 -- pulled him from school against DH's wishes and the divorce agreement, pretended to homeschool him, told SS18 he must move with her (then told him later she changed her mind, not that she found out legally she just couldn't take him), tried to block him from seeing his psychologist, etc, etc.

The next year will be interesting as I think things could go several ways. DH's ex may sign the agreement and then do nothing related to SS18 -- because she just wanted the fight and that would be over. She might use the agreement (which has words about DH and his ex keeping each other informed, making reasonable attempts to work through disagreements prior to going to arbitration, etc.) to continue the drama she has created this past year. Or she might take one run at DH on a decision just to see if he will follow through and use the arbitration process, and if he does, then she could easily back off. She says the reason they weren't able to come up with a mediated agreement was because when they were in the same room he agreed to something then came home and spoke to his "current wife" (that's me) and I "vetoed" the decision. Not sure how she dreamed that one up, but she has told her lawyer and DH's lawyer that I am the problem. What she doesn't say is that they tried arbitration on a real issue (her pulling SS18 from his psychologist) and the arbitrater ruled that SS18 needed to keep seeing this person and the next day DH's ex said she no longer wanted to be a guardian.

I believe DH's ex is terrified of being found out, which is will do what she needs to do to avoid having a parenting assessment done. Because DH has said he would ask for an assessment if he goes in front of a judge it may keep her somewhat in control. But she is high functioning and inconsistent, which makes it hard to guess what will happen next.

I hope all goes well for you.

[Rose1]

He also won't go too far away from his whackmommy.  In court there was an audible gasp when it was revealed they were mother/son.  Everyone, including the judge assumed she was The Other Woman.  Dang near sitting in each other's laps holding hands.

That was a reminder   . ExBPDh wasn't quite that bad but when the two of them were in a room together no one else existed. Displeasing her was also his hot button.

[Rubies]

Thank you all for the good advice.  You've given me lots to consider.  We're setting it down for right now, DD is sick of the entire issue and just wants to enjoy some childhood without any FOG, suspected FOG or legal crap.

Just giving it a rest, give her room to breathe.

She's decided to go NC, and will pick it up again with supervised visits with him locally when she's ready.  She's not even returning her sister's calls.   Without court ordered visitations forcing her to his house 3 weekends a month, she can now participate more with her friends, school and community which she feels she's been deprived.   It hadn't really occured to her she had the option to disengage from her BPDdad and his stress.     If he starts up, I assured her I will take care of it.

She had a wonderful birthday, a party with her friends, normal and disabled, with hot jock boys who respect and protect her, and no drama.  This is what she wants for her life.

[NorthernGirl]

She had a wonderful birthday, a party with her friends, normal and disabled, with hot jock boys who respect and protect her, and no drama.  This is what she wants for her life.

[joanlee]

Thanks, awakecj. I have adult children of a BPD dad, we divorced after 36 years. I am wondering where to go from here. They are mature people, but I know they have been harmed by this, and I know their dad has told them lies about me and everything else. He told our mutual friends that we divorced because I was having an affair with attorney! When I found out about this, I was livid. I have no clue what he tells the kids. They are old enough to make up their minds, but they don't know about BPD. they just think he's an alcoholic (just! LOL)... .  But I didn't want any contact after the divorce, because he was so psychotic and his emails were so vile. I haven't really talked to my kids about this stuff, and now I feel like I want them to know about BPD and how it's affected them. The divorce was so ugly, it just blew up, I left, and that was it. I called my son to tell him, but we haven't talked much since. I am wondering if I should write them both a letter.

[Matt]

Since they are adults, there are two sides to this:  what is good for them to hear, and what is helpful for you to say.

What I mean is, if they were little, you would set aside your need to say some stuff, and only share what it's in the kids' interest to hear, which might not be much.

But since they are adults, they are capable of hearing stuff that it's important for you to have out in the open, as long as you don't dwell on it past their tolerance.

I've struggled with this too, with my stepkids - 17 and 29 when we separated, now 23 and 35.

SD23 - I've talked openly with her, told her that her mom was diagnosed with BPD and other stuff, and that she accused me of stuff I didn't do.  SD wasn't very receptive - she listened, but didn't really respond, and pretty soon made it clear she didn't want to hear any more.  And for years, I've left it alone - not my preference, but I value my relationship with SD more than my desire to tell her stuff about her mom.  It's not how I wish it was, but it's how it is, at least for now.

SS35 and I have talked more, and he's been more receptive, because he was treated as the "all-bad" kid when he was little - SD was "all-good" - so everything I tell him fits well into how he already saw his mom.  But he continues to hope she will magically change - he knows with his brain that won't happen, but he still seems to need to pretend that it will - and I have to accept that too.  So now when there's information I think he should know, or that I feel the need to say, I say it, but I don't dwell too long on it, because I know he doesn't want to hear too much of it.

Not ideal - a little about my needs but more about theirs.  As parents, even when the kids are adults, we need to put their needs at least a little higher than ours.

[joanlee]

Thanks for the thoughts, Matt... .  my motive here is just to have them understand it. I don't think they've ever heard of it. But hearing it from me might sound too critical. I think of how it's helped me to put a finger on this thing, and I'd hope it would do the same for them, but I don't know. I don't want to badmouth my BPD ex, but I think after living this way thru their whole lives, and the way we left it (I just left, finally, NC), I have some 'splaining' to do. Not sure how to approach it. Maybe they already know everything and don't need me to point things out.

[GaGrl]

Our adult children are all aware of their mother's issues... .  their willingness to put a name on it and/or deal with it varies. My DH and I support each of his children wherever they are at any given time. None have taken our advice to seek counseling... .  so frustrating