Some improvement, but not much.

[elemental]

To update, I am feeling calmer. Instead of being really angry all the time, I am generally calm, and I guess kind of depressed and sad. Sometimes I get triggered off a bit and struggle some, but I am making it through without showing upset outwardly.

My BPD... I don't even know what he is right now because we have had this separation for about 6 weeks now.

He has broken his silent treatment to email complaints to me. Otherwise I am still blocked on the social site. I haven't tried to call him, or go over to his place, as I think it won't end well right now.

He mailed a few times this week. Once to tell me he doesn't want to "deal with" someone who doesn't keep private information private.

That is because I talked to internet woman and I guess I wasn't supposed to respond to her or talk to her and mess up his story to her. Apparantly she told his ex some things and all of this created a massive amount of drama.

I am conflicted. On one hand I can see the common sense of not instigating problems, on the other hand, it hurts my spirit to know that he is denigrating me to people so his ex doesn't get wind of me and start a storm of problems for him, jerking him around over his kids and such. I am sympathetic to him, but I am not sure if I feel ok about being made out as this really terrible person... like this is my "role".

Considering what I have been the recipient of, it's kind of hard for me to accept. Even though it keeps the peace and I know he needs it in that arena desperately. He's sold me out to make himself look like a good guy and me a bad person. At least it feels that way

His other complaints were how insulting and rude I am... .which was the original complaint and reason for giving me the silent treatment. From my end, I kind of thought lying, chasing after internet woman, denigrating me to people, etc, on top of the unresolved old issues... was kind of an unstandable reason for me to let him see my upset.

Anyway, I responded to his first mail with that right now I am focusing on my own self, I was not interested in coming back in and trying to pick back up in the same way we had done it the last 10 times. It was not working, I found the enviroment toxic and I wanted to figure  out more productive ways. I said I love him and miss him and hoped that we could talk soon.

He responded with "hope so".

So I let that go. A couple days went by and he writes again and says he has gotton to the point where every time someone asks for another chance, every time they promise they will do better, all he wants to do is yell and swear at them "the definition of insanity"... which is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

He linked a pretty hostile short youtube link from some newly released video game with the in game character going off the deep end cursing and swearing about "the definition of insanity" which then ends with the character trying to kill some guy. He said this was currently his favorite character.

I could read that in about 10 different ways. I know he is angry, his ex constantly tries to wrangle him back by promising all sorts of things. He has given a lot of himself to that situtaion trying to sort it out and she flat out won't do it. He can't even get his kids out of that house on his own, his ex cuts him off unless he goes THERE, and if he won't come over, she refuses to let his 10 year old daughter call him or email him. And he worries about her all the time.

I don't know if he was trying to be hostile to ME or if he sees me that way. I suspect he does. It feels pretty unfair.

I waited a day and I wrote back "Not a surprising philosophy to develop at a certain point.

Ask me some time about the philosophy you develop after that point."

I was thinking of the acceptance you eventually get to after beating your head against walls until you realize certain things are never going to change. I didn't say that, but it's what I was thinking. It's what I am trying for myself.

Since then, I heard nothing. I guess he was trying to have a little joke with t he response of the youtube video.

From what I can see he is still chasing after internet woman trying to get her to be friends again. I don't like it, it is the number one thing that has triggered me consistently in the last year and led to conflict after conflict. It actually makes me want to just walk away. Then I think why is this such a big deal to me? He is DESPERATE to make clear to me that HE gets to control HIS life. I NEVER had a problem with that. I have a problem with him forcing this on me when he can see I never had a problem with his friends prior and that it has caused considerable hurt to me. REAL HURT.

And his response always is she is his friend and he gets to choose his friends.

In principal I agree... but it's killing my feelings for him. I FEEL cheated on. He knows this. I want to hurt him for it. So I am staying away still and not trying to talk to him when he is not talking to me. I am really hurt and angry still about this. I miss him, love him, am disappointed and angry with him.

And that is what is going on. I don't really know what to do now, except still try to get calmer and heal.

I am learning A LOT about the importance of boundries. It's really helping. I feel safer now.

Advice and comments always welcome. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[CodependentHusband]

I know this is tough for you. Even though it is painful right now, it really sounds like you are doing the right things. Getting in touch with your justified anger is good, for sure. Even better that you are analyzing the "whys" for your anger and the intensity of your anger. Boundaries are important, for sure. Sounds a bit like you are trying to find out what the "dealbreakers" are for you... .Another very important thing. I see my wife idealize other men on occasion... .That's one thing, and it hurts a little; however, she doesn't seem the have regular and frequent communication with these guys. I, of course, take notice of this, but I've found that giving her a LOT more space than I like really seems to help her from feeling like she needs attention from others. I don't fully understand this, and I don't put much effort into trying to understand it to be completely honest.

Keep doing what you are doing. Hopefully he will come around.

[Validation78]

Hi Elemental!

I am so glad to hear that you are feeling better, more calm, and less angry! Relationships with pwBPD are tough, and as you know, our best defense is knowledge, understanding and empathy. I think that the distance between you now, as difficult as it has been, may be your saving grace, as it has allowed you to learn more about BPD, practice the tools, and heal yourself. It's so hard to do when you are face to face with the pwBPD every day.

Just like many of us, you still have issues that you cannot resolve. The ones that still bring up the hurt feelings, the anger. That's alright. It seems that you are accepting the emotions, being mindful of them, and taking the healthy steps to deal with them. Great work elemental! It shows us all how far any of us can go when we practice what we read about here!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[elemental]

Being able to detach and step back has been key for me. Typically if I am not able to do that we end up in a big fight. So awesome, I am so grateful to this site for giving me the tools to be getting into this frame of mind more and more every day. 

He and I had the first truely civil words to each other since early November. We wished each other merry Christmas in a calm and kind way. It seems he has been calming down a lot, too, in the last 2 weeks.

I don't know where we go from here. I thought today about having regular interaction with him, and felt very anxious about it... panicky... .heart pounding and worried.

I love him very much, but I guess I am not really there yet.  And I was thinking about internet woman, who he is still clearly wanting to be very good friends with. I don't feel good about that at all, in fact, it I still feel very upset... .hurt, angry, wanting to lash out at him over her... I am ok with my significant other having women friends, but not really CLOSE ones. Mainly because I personally have found that these types of relationships seem to become innapropriate.

Internet woman IS married, but I don't have the impression it is entirely happy, since she seems to accrue internet boyfriends. I don't want MY boyfriend doing that sort of thing. Problem is I can't really TELL if that is what it is, since he doesn't care if she sees us together ( though he complains about me to her) and SHE says "friends, nothing more."

Maybe it really is my problem? Somehow I don't feel like it is since he is willing to lose me over her. At the same time, he has a 12+ year history with his ex, who I think may be a REAL borderline, with him having loads of fleas from her... she is incredibly controlling and manipulative and ruined most of his friendships he ever had. He  has told me how angry and humiliated he feels over it, how she would manipulate and bully and threaten, using the kids, to force him to do things he never wanted to do, or force him to submit to her demands... .I wonder how much of that has to do with me sort of triggering those feelings in him, and him deciding to make this issue over internet woman a hill to die on.

I need him to behave with women, but he is fighting supporting me on the basis of feeling triggered about being controlled and humiliated... he has made statements about no longer being a victim and that he WILL make his own choices. He said he will listen to my thoughts and opinions and then he will decide for himself what he does.

I always respected him on these things and I never felt pushed around until THIS was a problem for me after he cheated, baby, etc.

Is this really MY problem that I need to process through and probably he is just so angry from what has happened with his ex, he is being triggered into fighting me because we are having 2 different needs that are banging up against each other?

Honestly, I really want her GONE, but I am not really sure what to think.

Thoughts, ideas, recommendations and advice are welcome

[Validation78]

Hi Elemental!

Frankly, I do see it as your issue, your boundary, and I happen to agree with this particular boundary. I wouldn't want this sort of thing going on in my relationship either. Yes, it's alright to have friends, even those of the opposite sex, however, there must be boundaries. If you feel that lines have been crossed, and they exceed what you value as appropriate behavior, then, as you know, you must be willing to "die on the hill" as you so aptly say, too! Surely if you are not consistent, the behaviors will continue, and your values and boundary are meaningless to him.

So, if he's willing to die on this hill over this issue, what's you game plan for the future?

Best Wishes,

Val78

[elemental]

I think boundries have been crossed some. On his side, not really on hers. I think she has spent a lot of time confused herself about him. Because they had conflict (caused by him) and she backed way off and told me she had considered him a friend, but he had hurt her and they "were once friends".

She is pretty passive about him as far as I can tell. I think she tends to avoid him, while being polite when he approaches her.

This morning, he did something in her direction again that is counter to us working through the situation. I triggered on it and called him on it. He called me a spy and he desisted the action.

We are back to square one.

What doesn't seem to get through to him, is that PAUSING what he is doing, and working through things with me... would actually get him what he is wanting, which according to him, is to be friends with her... or make effort to restore the friendship. I don't think he will be successful... .but what I need is him to STOP doing these things long enough for me to process through all that has happened.

It's big stuff. Big damaging things. The only thing I asked was for him to stop for a while so I wasn't getting overloaded to the point that I couldn't hold it together. He keeps insisting that nothing he is doing with her is or should be a problem, and that it is all in my head.

I can't even tell wether it is all in my head. I can't tell. I can't sort it through. I am really trying and right now I feel really awful again.  I am in tears.

[elemental]

He said in the past that he felt this was a slippery slope. That what I really wanted was to make him not be friends with her.

Like what his ex did to him over and over.

He is right that I don't want the "friendship"... but not for the reasons he appears to believe. I don't want it because he treated me badly over her.

I was willing to come to terms with it as long as it was kept appropriate.

Also, I felt and still do, that in 5+ years, I never had a problem with any other friendship he had and never said one word until this. Now I trigger every time I see him make a move in her direction. And that is even with the understanding of what he has told me about his own intentions, his own triggers.

I get it in my head, but my feelings don't agree. I have many times requested that he stop on a limited basis and all I hear back is how I am trying to force things on him, control him, how she is innocent and shouldn't suffer OUR problems... and that he fears it simply ends in him not getting to have friends.

No amount of validating, explaining I understand... nothing seems to make him want to stop it. He himself told me that asking him or "forcing" him to stop doesn't change how he feels about it. He wants to do it and that is how he feels and I should just accept it.

And somehow, even though they both insist otherwise... .I really feel massively disrespected, screwed with, and cheated on.

And I ask here if I am screwed up due to what happened in the past or if he really IS being disrespectful, innapropriate in his insistence to the point of destroying our relationship or putting me into such a terrible position that *I* ruin it by being upset about it all the time... .

Do you see,  I feel it is WRONG and terrible and uncaring and CHEATING, but he says it is not, so stop pushing at him and grow up and accept it.


Someone, anyone, give me ideas for a win-win situation...

And if it can't be, then I will end the relationship. I can deal with BPD stuff up to a point, but not where it appears to be require self annhilation to keep it going. It's destroying my life... really, my health is getting bad, my business is getting so little attention it is stalling and my material life is degrading... my heart is breaking... I just started to get stable again and now more of the same.

I can't even TELL if I am just flipping out over nothing or if he is frankly, acting so self entitled he should be left and live without me permanantly. Because I didn't lie or cheat or have extra babies or disregard his needs and feelings in order to persist in damaging actions... .until honestly I just emotionally overloaded from all of the lies, broken agreements, cheating... .


And I don't WANT to be that person who is so devaststed they can't even live a stable life due to all of it going on and on and on.

I don't know what to do or what to think now. disregulated I guess  :'(

[CodependentHusband]

Elemental,

    Yes... .We do get dysregulated. One of the things that helps is to get more emotional distance. That heartbreak you are feeling, in my opinion, is normal and even necessary. I'm almost certain that my wife was having an emotional affair with an old friend of ours earlier this year. Like you, it drove me crazy. I spied on her... .checked her social media account, email, etc. I felt justified in doing so, and I probably was justified; however, it was just making me crazy. In my case, the mutual friend lives about 3 hours away. Not an emminent threat for things to go beyond a certain point without some serious planning on my wife's part, but, then again, there are always other, more accessible, men to have inappropriate friendships with. Ultimately, I saw my wife's bahavior change only after I fully accepted that I have absolutely no control over what she does. If she has ever had a physical affair too, I don't know for sure. In a way, I don't want to know. In another way, it's scary to think about. When I thought about it more though, and I got over all of the emotional hurt, I decided that my love for my wife is unconditional. Could I forgive her for having an affair, especially one that may have never happened? It was making me crazy thinking about all of this, and I continued to detach from my wife emotionally. As a result of the emotional detachment, I also ended up giving her a lot more space than I felt comfortable with. Interestingly enough, when my wife felt less spied upon, she seemed to forget about this other guy. There are no guarantees in life, but you may get the same result. No matter what happens though, you need some emotional buffer. I know this is painful, and I'm sorry you are going through this.

[elemental]

I appreciate your encouraging words and I understand what you mean.

I guess I haven't progressed very far because I tried to talk to him, and JADED, and melted down to some degree.

I got barely any response back and pretty much ignored. I feel so dishreatened and hurt. I was optimistic when we wished each other merry christmas, he called me darling, it seemed we were both calming down... .then he went and did something that he knows for a fact is going to upset me, he's done it before and it's always effected me badly, and I asked him to stop.

He knows I had just begun to calm down. And I reacted badly. I told him it was his choice on what he wants to do, but if he wants my continued presence, then I was asking him to stop.

He stopped, but it is a phyrric success for me. It caused more damage than it cured. I would like to let it go... but how do I? I try to detach, he KNOWS I am trying.

I keep asking myself WHY he would do that when he KNOWS it always presents a really painful challenge to me. And then I remember I am dealing with a mentally ill person or someone who disrespects me so much that he really does think I should accept anything from him.

I don't know how to walk that fine line right now between staying detached enough to ignore it while I am in such a painful state.  I am nearly to the point of throwing in the towel completely and just walking off. I guess I am afraid I mean so little he probably doesn't care if I really am gone.

Internet woman lives 1500 KM away. She has no intention of trying to come near him. It's that he KNOWS he hurt me terribly with the cheating, the lying, the baby, the disrespect... .and the ONLY thing I told him I needed him to stop doing what the internet woman thing for a while... so I could handle things and not get overwhelmed... .I know I can work through things, it's just I trigger off of the disrespect and it SCARES me because I think it just means he didn't learn ANYTHING about acting with love and consideration and respect ... while at the same time he is saying he loves, he is saying he WANTS consideration and respect.

I have never been sure he actually has BPD, he is not diagnosed... .I just never saw these sorts of things in action in real life until I got involved with him. I was seriously so shocked and astounded by his ex's behavior I actually thought I could reason with the lady to get her to stop harrassing me and act decently about his and my relationship.

I feel hopeless. I am just reacting, right? And I need to detach so I can properly think and have strategy and not make things worse?

I spent some time on a couple of infidelity boards, trying to sort through. I feel gutted. Everyone says walk away, this guy has no remorse.

I don't even know. I am starting to feel that disappearing might be for the best since all I seem to do is calm down, we start to interact decently, then BAM, chasing after internet woman.

I know it isn't nice to say it here, because we are all striving for detachment and leaving behind our unproductive actions and thoughts and feelings, but atm, I really want to kick his behind and LEAVE and never go back. Am tired of him asking me to "cooperate" but I don't see HIM doing the same. 

[CodependentHusband]

The way you are feeling makes perfect sense. No doubt about that. Is he capable of feeling remorse? Is he capable of empathy for anyone at any time? I've noticed that my wife seems able to feel empathy for others to such an extent that it appears that she is actually experiencing emotional pain for others with the same intensity. Yet, only very seldom does she demonstrate this with me. It's hard to imagine someone acting like this, and we can understand the disorder to a certain extent, but doing so doesn't do anything to give someone with BPD the capacity to behave in an appropriate manner. I went through many, many cycles with my wife pre-BPD diagnosis where when times were good, I jumped right back into being enmeshed with her and enjoying the high of "being in love." How wonderful it would be to stay in that elevated state. As nons we feel that we could sustain this "in love" feeling, and, who knows, maybe some of us could. Unfortunately, for the pwBPD, there is no way for them to sustain it because the first disappointment they face seems to tear them apart. The non and the pwBPD get their hearts broken over and over and over again by the same person. The only way I've found to get around this is to detach emotionally... .Not all the way, but more than I feel comfortable with. I knew I needed to do this if I was going to leave, but decided to do it before I left because it would make it easier to leave. The irony is that it has now made it easier to stay, and we both seem to have benefitted from not being enmeshed anymore. I'm not sure if any of this helps you or not. I know it hurts.

[elemental]

Ok, help me work through this in my head.

He has expressed remorse at times. Rarely does he apologize, but every once in a while he does, he does it beautifully, and I believe he means it. During those apologies, he shows remorse and empathy.

His statement about this is that it is of such little importance, he thinks it's ridiculous for me to be hurt by it and angry at him for doing it. While from my view, asking him for the time over something that is of such little importance... .why is it a HUGE fight and such a massive difficulty for him to just set it aside for a while while recover from the cheating, lying... .the baby... the drama and hurt his ex created... .I totally understand how his fight with the ex and his guilt and FOG or whatever led to him going back and forth, struggling over his kid and his own feelings of anxiety and failure...

OK. But it all impacted me. It impacts me. I have a lot of capacity, but I have limits.

So I go quiet on her, as Phoebe recommended... .in the interest of keeping things calm... but this is SUCH a huge thing to me, I feel like if I go quiet, he will have considered himself to have "won" by refusing to act on my behalf in a simple and easy way that would have gotton him what he said he wants from me. It's like NO, from his view, I have to ACCEPT this and THEN when I do and act ok about it, THEN we can move on and have the loving and trusting relationship. I don't see that actually coming out of one person FORCING the other to accept something.

I may not be making sense here, I don't know. I already have to accept that what he did, the horrible way he handled things, from the frying pan to the fire, the baby, etc, these are BIG things to me... .and I ask him to cut  me some slack... .and that is the thing he WONT do.

Was I wrong or just ineffective , to tell him look you can do what you want, I respect that. I will not be here though if it continues because I can't stay stable under these conditions. I mean it. I can't be here. He already saw 6 weeks of me not being close and not trying to work things out over THE SAME EXACT THING. He just saw 14 MONTHS of me backing away, upset, in tears, freaking out because I was afraid. I was asking him to chill out on this woman even BEFORE I found out about the baby.

I don't see how I can actually be there under these conditions. Do I seem like I am not understanding? From an outside view, does it appear he is making this a big issue simply because needing him NOT to be doing it put him in the state of forcing it on me?


Am I giving up taking care of myself if I accept it. I am to the point I would almost rather DIE than take it. This is actually a BIGGER issue to me than the baby. The baby is HARD to accept, but it isnt NEAR the issue as having this forced on me is.

I am confusing myself the more I talk. How can I be JADEing myself to the point I cant even think straight now   

[almost789]

Sounds like your in the triangle, playing the victim. Get out of the triangle, painful as it may be. Which is more painful, staying in or getting out? He has made it clear he will not give up internet woman, he doesn't think its a big deal despite how that makes you feel. You have to decide, accept his relationship with her or not. It doesn't sound to me like you can accept it. Be true to yourself first. He doesn't matter more than you, does he?  

I was in a similar situation and believed I loved him so I could handle the online playing as he says it was "nothing" they don't mean anything to him. Well, I couldn't handle it, I tried. I couldn't.

[elemental]

He insists it is nothing. He doesn't bat an eye at going around with me in front of her. She doesn't appear to care at all, she distanced herself. 

I never saw him try this at any other woman ever.

I am sorry you went through that. I know how much it hurts. 

It's another disappointment. I thought we were starting to understand each other for real, I actually considered these past few weeks that he would likely do it some more and what my reaction would be. I thought he would take longer to do it... its not ok with me. He stopped the action, but I know he wants to do it. I would like to say that I try to stop doing things he tells me he feels hurt by. He won't stop.

I am going to go silent with him again and not try to talk to him. As long as he is doing this, I will not try to repair the relationship or talk to him.

I guess if he wants to repair it, he will need to let me know he is on board for it and willing to work TOGETHER, rather than ME working to overcome his actions while he CONTINUES them.

It can't be done. So it seems I am like Codependenthusband in the distancing. If my BPD will stop on his own while I ignore him, wonderful. If he jumps in with both feet, then good luck to him pestering internet woman into prioritizing HIM over her own doctor husband, her own medical practice, her OTHER online boyfriends AND overcoming her apparant aversion to interacting with him much.

I guess that will all happen now that I am not a problem.

It's 2:33 PM where I am and this is MY boundry.

[CodependentHusband]

Was I wrong or just ineffective , to tell him look you can do what you want, I respect that. I will not be here though if it continues because I can't stay stable under these conditions. I mean it. I can't be here. He already saw 6 weeks of me not being close and not trying to work things out over THE SAME EXACT THING. He just saw 14 MONTHS of me backing away, upset, in tears, freaking out because I was afraid. I was asking him to chill out on this woman even BEFORE I found out about the baby.

I don't see how I can actually be there under these conditions. Do I seem like I am not understanding? From an outside view, does it appear he is making this a big issue simply because needing him NOT to be doing it put him in the state of forcing it on me?

You are NOT wrong in any sense of the word when it comes to how you feel about this. If you are trying to measure your effectiveness by him changing, that's where the problem arises in my opinion. We don't have to approve of what they do, and we do NOT have to be around it either. It's our own personal choices with how we want to live our lives that we have to be true to in order to he happy.

He's done some terrible things when it comes to building a healthy relationship based on trust. He doesn't deserve your trust right now, no doubt about that. The problem I had with this though when my wife was having the emotional affair is that I finally realized that there isn't a thing in the world that I can do about what she does.  Yes, they act impulsively, up to and including in some cases, with inappropriate relationships. Those actions are taken in many cases out of an impusive attempt to make themselves feel better. It never works though, because that feeling of emptiness comes back for someone with BPD. They come back every once in a while with what seems like a heartfelt apology, and they make promises to change. I believe that they do feel remorse at that particular point in time, but the promises, well, unfortunately, they can't be relied upon in most cases. The BPD makes them live only in the present. Truely and fully accepting a person with BPD (flaws and all) is, in my opinion, a necessary step in order for you to heal. That's true for someone who wants to stay or leave. He did things you don't approve of. He did things that you would never do. Do you love him unconditionally? It's okay either way, and for me, I didn't know the answer to that question until I had gone through all of the grieving stages over the loss of what I though my marriage to my dBPDw would be like. We, as nons, can't tie our own happiness to the actions of others, especially those with a mental illness. True acceptance comes only after much pain, but, unlike the alternative of pleading for change from someone who isn't fully capable of chage, there comes relief in the form of clarity. We're going to make more sound decisions when the pain is behind us. That decision may ultimately be to leave, but at least it is easier to leave after you have detached emotionally and accepted the way that they are behaving.

[almost789]

Mine was with the "internet" pornography and the like, chatting up with women he doesn't even know, getting pictures, things like that. When it started cutting into MY time, I left him. I tried to accept that it was nothing, just porn. This was his drug and used to regulate stress and other emotions. Once I found out he was BPD and they act out sometimes in this way, then I tried to get back and accept it, deal with it. But in the end I decided I can't really deal with it. It's not me, it doesn't make me happy and I will never be able to accept the silent treatment or the internet women that cut into my time and attention.

[elemental]

Probably I am still in a state of grief and I am mistaken to try and interact when my attachment to a loving outcome is so strong.

Right now I don't know what else to do except back away again. He didn't want to talk about it. I asked to talk and he ignored me.

From what I can tell, this morning his action was possibly based on her other very close male ( read this guy is in love with her ) doing public things to show his care for her... and I think it made my BPD so jealous he decided to make his presence felt. That is I think he was triggered into action. And he thought I wouldn't see it... which is where the spy thing comes from. I am sad to say he undermined my trust more that he did something he knows will upset me because he thought I could not see it. What else is he doing that I am not actually seeing?

I don't see any option except to accept he isn't working with me, and to distance myself. I really don't like being in tears. Over half my day is gone because I spent it being upset and crying and feeling scared and angry.

I don't think I love him unconditionally RIGHT NOW because he apparantly has no limits on what he is willing to do that is hurtful, damaging, etc. I can love him, but this is damaging to me at this point, so reasonably, I have to protect myself from damage.

I really love him, I think he is reacting and badly unstable right now. But it's like standing next to a beached whale while it is trying to flip itself back into the water. I am just going to get squished by him if I don't move out of harm's way.

I already know I can't make myself stand there and take the risk of more harm when he is doing this.

I guess he will slap me around for the last email I sent. Or ignore me. I feel really upset and maybe I am being avoidant, but I probably won't look at that email account for a few days.

[almost789]

You sound like I was a few weeks ago. I was very confused in the past months, mostly I believe because of him! Him saying yeah, he wants to be friends and even said at one time so glad "we are back together" but then continuing his hurtful behavior, silent treatment, internet playing. I was confused, I thought getting back together to be friends meant we were going to get back together and I would be his center of attention again and him mine and everything would go back to the way it was, or at least work toward working it out or issues and trying to improve as a couple in a relationship. However, I think his impression was I'm taking him back and I am just going to accept everything and he could continue to do whatever he wanted and still have me too. We weren't on the same page.

[elemental]

I told him last week I was focusing on my own life and that I was worrying about what I do and not trying to manage how he lives his life.

Possibly he took that to mean I was detaching from his actions (agreeing what he does is not something I will comment on) and let go of it and work on us being together.

Not once has the idea of us just being friends really hit the table. It's a love relationship, it's always a love relationship. We get some calm and pretty soon its all love. I can't handle this right now though and be detached AND present.

It's driving me out of the situation.

I can tell you... .if it was a choice between having him on board with me working with me ( like he says he wants me to do for him) as opposed to persuing a friendship RIGHT now that I knew was making him mistrust me and and he said he was finding a bad trigger and hurtful... .I would be setting aside the one sided friendship and addressing with him until he made clear to me he was ok with my persisting in trying to convince the friend to really be friends with me again. In a nutshell, situation would never have gone to this extreme in the first place because I actually care more for him than for some guy who is trying to avoid me.

[patientandclear]

I guess I am afraid I mean so little he probably doesn't care if I really am gone.

If this is the case, you don't want to continue the r/s, do you?  So no point in living in fear about this.  You might as well find out.

Internet woman lives 1500 KM away. She has no intention of trying to come near him.

I don't think this is the point.  Emotional infidelity still counts and it still hurts.  Given what has gone on in your r/s you are completely reasonable to see this as an indicator of whether he is going to take care of your feelings and respect your boundaries.  On which, more below.

atm, I really want to kick his behind and LEAVE and never go back. Am tired of him asking me to "cooperate" but I don't see HIM doing the same. 

I think it is super important to see that you do have that choice. You can stop.  If it would feel better to stop, you should stop.  You get to choose.

I told him it was his choice on what he wants to do, but if he wants my continued presence, then I was asking him to stop.

That is a perfectly articulated boundary.  And one that makes complete sense.

Here's the thing: you need to mean it!  Don't waffle!  You set it out there.  He stopped.  That is NOT a phyrric victory.  You need to not telegraph to him now that you didn't really mean it, or maybe he really can continue what you'd identified as problematic contact with internet woman and you'll stick around.  This is important.  You need to mean what you say about this.

The non-BPD love of my life cut off contact with me 22 years ago because he cheated on his girlfriend with me and decided to commit to her, and it hurt her for him to have continued contact with me.  It was a big sacrifice for him.  We were really really close.  We loved each other deeply.  He still cut contact with me, explaining it in exactly these terms.  I miss him like crazy.  But I've always respected and understood his decision.  When you love someone, you need not to do things that undermine their security and confidence in you and in the relationship.

You are asking your partner to do something similar, though I bet internet woman is not as central a figure in his life as my former bf was in mine and vice versa.  Don't hesitate to ask this or make it your condition to continue in the r/s.  You deserve to feel safe & be able to relax.  You won't be able to if he is continually demonstrating how little he cares about your feelings.

[elemental]

. Interestingly enough, when my wife felt less spied upon, she seemed to forget about this other guy. There are no guarantees in life, but you may get the same result. No matter what happens though, you need some emotional buffer. I know this is painful, and I'm sorry you are going through this.

I wanted to respond to this.

He plays an MMORG with her. I also play this MMORG. Except these days I am playing it less and less due to how it triggers me off on bad feelings.

He met internet woman in this game. She was in this group with his friend, this guy he is no longer friends with due to his friend being in love with internet woman and the friend getting angry that my BPD was pretty much chasing her around... so I heard. I am not over in that group so I piece things together from a few different sources.

So my guy ended up on voice comms talking to her a lot while we were in game. I wouldn't be able to see this. So they develop a friendship where he really dumps on her all of the things that have happened with us. And my BPD gets on this social site making friends with his guy friend there and then internet woman asked to be friends and he agreed ( and we had  problems for 6 month over her prior so I was pretty upset this was going further) then my BPD ex pounced on internet woman asking to be friends on the site and boy does it all get icky from there.

Meantime as all of this is going down, I lose a sister, I find out about the baby, my mother appears to be dying... .and to my BPD I am saying look I have enough that is hard to deal with please STOP this drama and stuff with internet woman. Because he was getting into arguments with her and his other game friend. My BPD gets rejected by them, unfriending goes back and forth all over, the male game friend is having big hissies over my BPD getting too close to internet woman... .they are all spatting back and forth... and I am saying to my BPD ENOUGH ALREADY. leave those people alone, and stop the drama.

Well he wouldn't. he was being rotton to them for ditching him, he was being rotton to me for flying apart, and he was making it a THEM versus ME and how I had better shape up or ELSE. And I was thinking my mother is dying and I am shattered and this GARBAGE is in my face. And he is the origin of the infection.

It's just ENDLESS. Internet woman and the other guy go off together all the time. They don't WANT my BPD tagging along, so they evade him. And... .

haha I just realize how ridiculous this all is, writing it out.

omg. you guys must think I am the world's biggest dope to get so upset by all of this stupidity.

All I wanted was for him to STOP and lets have some darned peace. I swear he must be addicted to drama the way he keeps holding a match to the gasoline.

Probably the best thing to do is to back off, smile blandly and stay out of the way as he pesters internet woman to the final showdown of her kicking his butt away from her.

Please validate me that this might happen

[elemental]

Patience, we cross posted. He already told me negotiation over no contact with internet woman is off the table. She stays.

I haven't really tested him on this yet.

He did stop. If he wants to continue, his choice.  I really don't want to be around. Problem is, he never STICKS to what he is saying he is doing. He will go awhile then cause a problem and then create a massive drama then break the agreements on the basis we are broken up and then we got back together, so agreements are off.

Dunno what to do except leave.


Also what he stopped doing was what he was doing today. He still is on her social page. I can see her page. I can see his, he has me blocked on the IM but I can see his page. I want all of it to stop. But today, I simply told him it was up to him, he can do what he wants, but if he wants me there, then what he was doing today he needs to stop doing. He stopped doing what he was doing today and called me a spy. I didn't respond to the spy accusation.  This doesn't actually address the broad problem of his obvious intention to continue persuing at her. It's just a matter of time before he does more or hides it better.

[CodependentHusband]

Please validate me that this might happen

Ouch! THAT is a big ole' mess. It's actually not silly at all... .I can see why you are hurt by all of this. You know, backing off is all well and good, I think, but we have to be careful. I didn't back off with the intention of making my wife change. I backed off because witnessing this through spying was, a. Making ME miserable and feeling like I was unappreciated, and b. Adding to all of the chaos my wife was creating because she is mentally ill. My discovery was that as a by-product, I genuinely DID feel better about her friendship with this person who lives 200 miles away, even if it did seem inappropriate at times, AND, after she stopped feeling so smothered by me she changed.

[elemental]

I don't know what to say to him now.

I feel gutted. Trying to move away from victimhood, but I think today I hit a patch of infection and it is processing out.  I am really listening to all of you and hearing your experience with your wife is helping me think.

I don't want to argue with him. He and I had an agreement about the game and the social site: he would stay off posting things on her page, keep her off his page as a friend, and he would not play alone with her in the game. He has repeatedly instigated arguments, some  have left my head spinning because I don't even know what he is on about... .then when I get upset he "breaks up" and once he calms down, he is back and wanting to be together EXCEPT he says we broke up and the agreements are no longer in effect even if we are together again. Then it sets me off  because I fail to understand how hard a time he is having not hitting that "like" button... .

He would be ecstatic if I let the whole matter of her drop. He has been fighting me tooth and nail for over a year over it. And of course in my mind if he is scheming and fighting it so hard, at the complete cost of trust and our relationship, then I probably DO have something to be concerned about... .where if when I expressed concern if he had said, hey babe, i dont care about her and then he SHOWED he didnt, I would have entirely let it go.

Maybe you are just stronger than me.

[CodependentHusband]

Maybe you are just stronger than me.

No, I don't think I'm stronger than you at all. In fact, maybe I give up easier than you... .have LESS fight in me than you. I think we all have different things that we will and will not accept. It is a part of us that makes us each our own individual. Frankly, when I stopped spying on her, I had given up on my marriage in many ways. It was like a great weight had been lifted to me because I was fighting against it for months on end... .hoping that she would change, and trying to make her change. It was too emotionally draining for me to sustain. I share my experience with you only because it worked for me... .Giving more space helped BOTH me and my wife. Will she ever do it again? She might... .Will I find out about it? Most likely I will if it progresses to a certain point. I still love her, but I can't live my life in constant fear of being abandoned by her. It's a choice I made, and, yes, it wasn't done withouy anxiety and pain along the way, but it has worked out better than I expected. I really hope that you can find out what's going to work for you as well. A one size fits all approach just doesn;t work with relationships. I realize that, but there are some similarities between relationships with pwBPD, and sometimes what worked for one will work for others.

I understand your pain, and we are all here for you.

[elemental]

I am afraid to let go of it.  :'( :'(

It is scaring me. He already had the affair, went back to his ex, had the baby, etc.

I am afraid if I shrug and say "whatever" he will further view it as permission from me that these things are ok. I am scared of walking around the house and all I hear is the wind in the cedars and the little birds. I think I lost my mind then, for months.

Is ignoring it telling him it's ok and it's ok to do and hurt me and make me a ghost again. It is really scaring me.

[patientandclear]

I am afraid to let go of it.  :'( :'(

It is scaring me. He already had the affair, went back to his ex, had the baby, etc.

I am afraid if I shrug and say "whatever" he will further view it as permission from me that these things are ok. I am scared of walking around the house and all I hear is the wind in the cedars and the little birds. I think I lost my mind then, for months.

Is ignoring it telling him it's ok and it's ok to do and hurt me and make me a ghost again. It is really scaring me.

Elemental.  What you wrote here really moves me.  I really identify with it.  It sounds to me like you feel scared of being alone -- both if you leave, and if you stay.  Making you a ghost though is something he did within the relationship, right?  By not caring that he is hurting you?

I think living in a relationship where someone is knowingly hurting you in a place where they have already hurt you, and refuses to stop, is incredibly damaging to your sense of self and your sense of your own value.  One way or another, I hope you will draw a line and not let that happen.

I think the approach you took to the particular thing he did today with IW is the right one.  Saying "you do what you want.  But if you want to be with me, X isn't going to work, I can't accept X."

What if you tried, as the value for X, "interactions with IW or any other person that echo your prior infidelity in our relationship and result in my feeling fearful that you will put someone else ahead of us again?"

That's a true description of what you need not to have happen in this r/s for you to feel OK, it sounds like.  But it isn't a list of specific behaviors.  It puts the burden on him to think.  To see things from your perspective.

And it gives him fair warning that, if what he does makes you feel cruddy about yourself, you aren't sticking around.  Which is what we all need to be conveying to anyone we are engaged with.

[elemental]

Thank you Patience, it is exactly that.

We had moved, my son and I, just after BPD ran off in July 2010.

The house we moved to was a family property. Huge old thing with 14 rooms, most of them empty. I didn't have enough furniture to even come close to filling it. It needed a lot of renovations, but it was free and needed someone living there.

I ended up just pacing through all of these rooms for a couple of months. It was a really strange time in my life. Family history, this big old house.

BPD just wrote to me telling me "You’re against me. Facts speak for themselves. I consider you like VBIED who can blow up at  second"

VBIED is an explosive device. He is basically telling me off for getting upset with his action this morning. Apparantly he continues to only focus on my upset and not the reasons for it. He knows why. This is the typical deflection I get.

My response, yes, he is right, I get upset. I am working on ways to handle the upset in a productive way for us.

I repeated my boundry: I respect that you can choose your own course of action, I cannot be present under certain courses of action.

I am trying very hard to not present ultimatums or it as a threat, but I am really clear inside myself. He can do what he wants. If what he wants to do are things he already knows are scary or hurtful to me... .then I will withdraw. I said it helps us to be respectful and supportive of each other. I would like that, but I respect his autonomy not to be.

I hope I said all that right.  English is not his first language, but he has a strong enough grasp of it to be really hurtful with his words. :/

[almost789]

Not once has the idea of us just being friends really hit the table. It's a love relationship, it's always a love relationship. We get some calm and pretty soon its all love. I can't handle this right now though and be detached AND present.

Hi Elemental,

Let me clarify. I said friends, but not "just" friends. We were friends and lovers.

I was his friend, he was mine. We both loved each other, he told me he loved me when I broke up with him, but he understood why I felt the way I did. I tried to overlook his actions because I learned about BPD and I believed him when he said the playing around on the internet didn't mean anything to him. He said he could care less about any of them. In the begining when I first suspected this, this is what he said. I'll stop, it doesn't mean anything. What I found was he couldn't stop. He had an addiction. He never admitted it , really. But intuition and other facts told me he was doing this. What I found is the more I spyed, the more I confronted and tried to make him stop, the more he started calling me paranoid, crazy and jealous and my anger outbursts, like yours, were considered by him to be unacceptable. So, like you, I tried to back off, not let it bother me. My mind told me I can do this, my heart and emotions did something completely opposite. I freaked everytime. This is when I decided, I can't overlook it. This doesn't make me happy.

What I believe is, I was triggering his abandonment reaction in telling him if he didn't stop I would leave. And so he did it more. I triggered him, he triggered me. In a normal relationship, telling someone, this makes me unhappy and if you continue I will leave. This works sometimes in a normal relationship. Not usually in BPD relationships. You are wanting him to understand how this hurst you however, that is empathy,  and the ability to empathise in a person with BPD is very little and next to nothing when they are dysregulated, its all about them. Not you.

Honestly, since he has told you he's not going to stop his relationship with this woman. I wouldn't expect that you can make him change because of your feelings. In fact, hes already said hes not. You have to be the one to change. Accept or don't accept, but waffling in between in tortuous to your self esteem and will begin to effect you in ways you won't even know until one day you will look at yourself and say, where did I go? Where's the Me I used to know?

[elemental]

Almost, I am sad you experienced this, too. It's so hurtful and maddening. Scary, like they are having an affair, but you don't really know.

I think a lot of my paranoia is associated with his past affair and the continued presence of his ex and the baby aggrivating the pain and anger I feel. It's like it can never just go away and I am always faced with this and if I am with him, I always will be. I know at some point I have to integrate this and be at peace over it or leave.

This online woman appears to be not interested, but he refuses at this point to consistently adhere to agreements.

I asked him why he did what he did the other day... why break our agreement. He said basically he was tired of restrictions and feeling controlled, and he WANTED to.

So there we go, like your ex boyfriend, my attention and upset appear to be pumping energy into him for doing this.

Because of my sensitivities and my past with him, I can't honestly tell if he is actually fighting this in some ways because of HIS past of letting himself be controlled and the resulting damage to his life and the humiliation he feels from it, or if he really has feelings for this woman. He says all it is is *friends* and her and her in- game boyfriend really do not want him around.

He appears to trail after them in the game, though, I am not able to tell how much real interaction is happening.

Everytime I try to give him a boundry, I hear a new accusation posed as a statement really of how he "sees" me.

I understand he is actually saying this is how he *feels*.

So he feels I am out of control.

He feels I am insane ( email I woke up to this morning)

He feels I will explode at any moment.

He feels I talk too much.

He feels tired of me.

Well to be point blank honest, I have done all of those things, the the insanity thing... I guess I may look crazy after a certain point :/

We basically ended up in a state of conflict as soon as I confronted him over the broken agreement. His accusations of my explosive nature began at that point, along with baiting and taunting.

Even though I have been here a while, I made the error of replying to his mail. It was a bad idea. I tried to validate his feelings without agreeing. This did not work. He refused a response until I logged into my social site account. Since I haven't blocked him there, and the site shows when you are logged in, he could see when I did and he sent me a mail "STOP SPYING for f**k's sake!"

I have friends on that site.

He was so heated at me, I felt humiliated and deactivated my account. I don't feel like being there with his accusations, his ex stalking me, and internet woman around.

And he actually seems to feel that my being there is generating conflict. Don't be there, don't look at anything he is doing there. He says I go looking for problems, see what he does and I get upset. He is right in a way. I do see some things and I really don't like them. His ex creates massive drama over me... and honestly I feel railroaded out of there. The conflict right now just isn't worth it to me. The same thing happened on facebook a few years ago. I guess I can revisit being on the sites at a later date. Feels bad though.

After he sent me the insanity email this morning, he sent another one.

In it he told me that "if you want to know who destroyed the relationship, it was you."

Then he told me why he feels that.

In August 2009 we were playing that online game very closely together. We had an ingame financial account.

Now this is going to sound a bit odd.

In that account there was in game money. The majority of it was mine. We both had access to it and he had control of some of my assets. Essentially I was producing an item that he would then take and sell for me. I could have done it myself, but he wanted to help me. So the money from the sales, he would deposit into the shared account.

Over a period of 5 months prior to August, he spent 40% of my income.

This is a bit convuluted, so please bear with me.

When he was married to his ex, he had a good job. However the city they lived in at that time was very expensive. The rental costs are so high, his salary would not cover it. So his ex's parent provided for nearly 10 years a rent free apartment. His ex family holds a lot of real estate. So that is where he lived with his ex and small daughter.

During that time he was married, he was thrown out numerous times. His apartment keys taken from him. He was taunted and humiliated over it, told he was failing to provide and essentially this was leveraged against him to force him to do things he would not normally want to do or agree with.

So here we were. He was overspending and I knew what he had been through. I  was afraid to say anything for fear of triggering him and humiliating him. So this went on and on until it got to the point where I kind of felt it was becoming a trust issue, which is very important to me.

He had already violated my trust 3 months prior by insisting on going on a week long vacation with his ex and his daughter, something we had conflict over. The statement from him being that he is the child's father and he is NOT involved with his ex and his ex created massive dramas and his time with his daughter gets limited. He said should he deprive his child of a vacation with him out of the city just because I wanted to be selfish, immature and insult him with my lack of trust?

Well, honestly I DID think so. At the time I actually didn't understand how terrible and ugly his ex could be and how bad it could get. I had no experience of these things and my take was pretty straightforward.

It did effect me as a huge breach of trust though. This was followed up with him in a terrible state when he came back. He was all over the place and looked to be fracturing. We were living together at the time and he was all over the place emotionally. Well he disappeared for 4 days. I couldn't find him anywhere. It was really upsetting. Then I came home from work after 4 days and he was back. Not only was he back, he had changed the locks on the doors and locked me out. It took an hour of pleading at the door before he opened it up and let me in.

He finally said at the time that he didn't believe he could keep it together due to the stress of his ex against me and he panicked and thought if he drove me away I would be better off.

Well I didn't leave. I calmed and reassured him that I was not going anywhere and for him to relax, we could work through together.

I said that, but I felt really traumatized. The vacation and the attempt to lock me out really scared me. Suddenly I felt really scared of him leaving and I was very anxious and insecure.

To connect this to the in game financial account... .all this time the money was going and I was scared to set him off, but eventually I felt compelled to try and gain control of the situation.

So I tried to talk to him. As carefully as I could, I told him he was over spending. And I said also that I had been feeling anxious and insecure.

The resulting drama was epic. He was at first calm, then became angry and sarcastic, accusing me of calling him a thief. He was rude and threatened to leave. He said he would give up access to the funds so that he would never have to have another accusation again. On and on. I was desperately trying to calm him and reassure him, saying I was only asking him to be more attentive to accounting. It took hours to calm him down and for him to stop the threats to leave and for me being sneered at and bullied. It was worse than I thought it would be and I was scared to say anymore.

After all, the money wasn't real. We dropped conversation over it after about a day and it was not mentioned again. He did remove his access and he never touched any of it again until we broke up, at which point he stole most of my in game assets and ran off with them. 

So today he told me that this event was how I destroyed our relationship. He said it was my hysteria over the money. That it went on for days and days, and he decided ALMOST 4 YEARS AGO that living with me for the rest of his life might be a nightmare.

Then he said "discuss".

I was near speechless. Near. However, I was in luck. I guess. At the time this discussion over the game money happened, he was on a business trip. So all of the conversation was on MSN. I still have the computer and I went and found the chat logs and forwarded them to him.

In the logs you can see what I said, what he said, how long the discussion was. So basically you see me incredibly careful and polite, directing the discussion from the money aspect very quickly to a calm and clear and polite statement over my feelings about his vacation and the effect of being locked out of our house on me. The conversation happened on one day. And the person who was having hysterics was him. He was all over the place, rude, mean, sarcastic, threatening.

Along with the chat log, I sent him a mail saying, here you can see how upset you were, I understand you were triggering and I am sorry you felt so hurt and upset, in no way did I ever intend that for you and I remember what you told me about what had happened to you in the past. I am sad you were hurt and I know how hurt and sad you are over those things.

He wrote back after a while and he said, "I was clearly very upset."

And he apologized. He said " I am sorry for all of it. Everything."

I said I was sorry too. And after that, I haven't heard any more.

I don't know what to do now. I feel really sad. I don't know how to fix more. We had a lot of conflict and both of us are badly hurt and very angry. He is gone on another business trip until January 8. I don't intend to attempt contact. I don't know if he will.

Maybe it's just best to let it lie. I would gladly work with him, but I am getting the feeling he is in such despair and upset he won't ever want to try. He certainly doen't want to try right now. I am not even sure I can stay calm if there are stressors. And I am pretty sure there will be stressors.

Whew. I wrote a book. My thanks to anyone here who wades through it all and has advice or wants to comment.

[kl315]

Wow. Again, I don't even know what to say except that maybe I have it a lot better than I thought I did. It sounds like sending the old messages actually forced him to acknowledge reality, and he was sorry for it. That's probably a good thing, but based on what he said, he is probably also terribly ashamed of his behavior and his incorrect perception of the incident. Maybe being ashamed of his behavior isn't a total negative... .it IS shameful, after all. But being ashamed may well force him to go silent while he either works through it, or buries it and shifts the blame back to you.

It sounds like you need a good long break to distance yourself from the drama, dishonesty and emotional turmoil. Don't beat yourself up for acting a little nutty or not being able to react to every episode with the utmost of calm and validation. He's really put you through the ringer and you can only take so much without losing it once in a while. After reading through your posts it seems that you two are caught in a cycle of push/pull and triggering. If you're strong enough to step out and away from it, it will eventually fizzle out on it's own and he will either recognize his part in it, or not.

I'm so sorry for all of your troubles. You've put up with more than anyone should have to and stuck by a man who most anyone else would have given up on long ago... .it's just very sad that he can't or won't appreciate the gifts you continually give him.