Boundaries... what are they and how do they work

[Being Mindful]

Dear Being Mindful,

You say you enforced your boundaries. How did you enforce them? Are there two steps? (In the first one you create the boundary, in the second one you enforce it?)

Survive

Hi Survive,

Yes, everytime my boundary is being challenged, I enforce it. See my previous example which is a bit long (sorry). If I am being verbally abused, I remove myself. If she is blaming me, I remove myself. If I feel threatened or afraid for my well-being, I will remove myself or call 911 depending on the circumstances. I enforce the boundary when it is being challenged. If she becomes physical, I call 911.

While my boundary is being challenged, I state my value, the action I am taking and assure her that we can come back another time when it is appropriate... .  appropriate time could be; when calm, when I'm done with work. It all depends on the boundary value. The enforcement is always the same, consistent in my action otherwise she will learn that she can break it again and again. This is why it is important to understand your boundaries very well, so that you protect them ALWAYS.

Once I determine I had to define, understand and enforce my boundaries, it became very easy for me. Almost immediately, I felt an internal peace, a shift of power, I felt strong like I was finding myself after years of suffering and pain. It was very difficult for her and in fact she got worse initially. I took that as a sign that something was working and not that I should back off.

For reasons I don't completely understand boundaries was my first step that created change in me such that I could then work on other skills like validation.

Is everything great, no. She still has major challenges, but we see a change for the better in our relationship and that she is functioning at a better place... .  and so are we.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Survive2012]

Thanks very much, Being Mindful. Now it is clear.

Thanks a lot for your help.

I just see that I HAD boudaries and that, one after the other, I lost them.

The situation is worse now.

I find myself in trouble as my husband said I was too hard when I had boundaries. This is why I lost them. Now, is it too late? Can I start them again?

I had the boundary that, when my son insulted me, I would not let him my computer.

Have a good evening,

Survive

[lbjnltx]

It is never too late to set boundaries.

Think carefully before you set a boundary... .  what are the possible consequences that you will have to deal with?  are you willing to protect your boundary no matter what?

Having the boundary that you won't listen to insults is a good boundary to have.

How does denying access to the computer protect you and your boundary?  Are they closely related?  Tying unrelated consequences to defending your boundaries may cause confusion or water down the value you are trying to protect.  Remember, the boundaries are about you and defending them is what you can do ... .  what you have the power to control... .  self.

If you are looking for ways to motivate your son to regulate his emotions that is good. Positive reinforcement is more effective than negative consequences... .  that is a different subject all together.

[Being Mindful]

I'll add to what lbj said... .  my boundaries both what they are and how I protect them are all about me and protecting my values and my relationships. They are not about my d. either in trying to punish her (take away the computer) or to control her behavior. Although over time, she has learned that I have value based boundaries. Together, we have a healthier relationship.

I think one misconception on boundaries is that we tend to confuse them with contracts. Contracts that have consequences in attempt to hold them accountable and change behavior. That is not boundaries.

Keep focus that boundaries are all about you. Isn't that nice? Doesn't that make you feel good that thru these you can take care of yourself, you can exit when you determine that your boundary has been crossed? And through all of this, you can find a healthier, stronger you and have a better relationship? 

Your questions are good. Keep asking them. It is generating good information here.

[qcarolr]

How would the above boundary protect the relationship?

In my situation ... .  when raged at and verbally abused I would initially react negatively, become unsure of what to say or how to say it, say something hurtful and the situation would escalate.  From these situations I began to develop an anxiety disorder and would walk on eggshells.  The safe space and assurance that boundaries created gave me a place to be calm, choose how to respond instead of react, and not cause escalation/damage to the relationship further. 

As time went on I learned skills (using SET, validation)that keep me engaged w/an emotionally dysregulated person longer so that I can help her work towards wisemind.  Over time trust was built and now she and I can converse about anything and everything in constructive ways partly due to me and partly due to her having skills too.

Did my boundary change? No... .  I just don't feel that my emotional stability is threatened any longer.  The boundary is still in place should I feel that way again.  This boundary protects our relationship.

Sounds like figuring out boundaries around being emotionally or physically abused is a primary value. It is for me too. What is different in the past few months so this is working so much better in my household? I have had this value, and tried boundaries with it for a long time with little success? Even though I still react emotionally at first, I can walk away and walk back, sit down, remain quiety, let DD speak her piece no matter how loud. Then things get quiet and then we can actually talk.

Am I more consistent in my responses? Yes, though not perfect.

Did things get worse before they got better? Yes, much worse for everyone.

Am I better managing my bipolar II disorder, so can better maintain a calmer self? Yes, went back on my meds and have increased them last spring.

Did it help that I took a break from the physical presence when DD had crossed this boundary in front of gd7 when she was 4? I got restraining order to keep DD away. Calling police did not seem to be making a difference. She always came back from ER psych eval within a few hours with increased sense of power over us.

We allowed DD to return to our home when she chose to get out of meth intense r/s with homeless bf/protector (a 20 month r/s). We chose to set limits on raging behaviors but with few other expectations. She could smoke pot with her medical mj license and drink her malt liquor - both legal - as long as not effecting anyone else in the house. Immeditate responses to raging - police, ER with psych eval.; limits on contact with gd (ie. no unsupervised time; being taken out of neighborhood by dh or myself and dropped on the street.

DD has been under court monitoring since end of Feb arrest for DUI - not doing anything more intense than pot Feb-Oct, not doing even pot now and fro 24 - 48 months conviction for DWAI. Court can put her in jail for violation of probation for one year. She does not want to go to jail - taking risks with her probation are hers alone.

Many of her extreme rages in past 10 years I believe were driven by cocaine or meth. I have been able to listen to some 'confessions' from her, without judgement, in the past couple months that have confirmed some of my guesses. She has great pride in stopping the cocaine on her own and not returning to it in Mar 2007 when 8 week pregnancy confirmed (she had lots of cocaine related problems with her menstrual cycle and thought she could not get pregnant). Now she even wants to stop cigs. - she has tried replacing pot with more nicotine and it is making her sick  She is actually trying to get what she needs with rx meds from mental health center. Point of this ramble:  :)D is in a more stable state of being past 10 months so she is open to learning, to questioning herself, to listening, to responding not reacting. She has been moving in this direction since Jun2011 when she returned home - but was still an occasional meth user IMHO due to raging episodes prior to the DUI arrest in Feb.

So I think when I detached from her, yet stayed connected in limited ways at first, I was able to help myself. As I was able to practice - model - better ways of coping for her, she was able to respond to me instead of react. This has been a gradual process starting with dropping the RO after 6 months in 2010. I am in awe of the changes in all of us in our household, including bf"M". For real  change to stick, it every single member of our household has had to make changes in how we interact, think, and treat each other.


lbj can say things with so many fewer words  I think I am trying to illustrate the same message.

qcr  

[Survive2012]

Thank you Ibj, Being Mindful and Qcr!

It's getting clearer: no contracts, nothing to do with 15yo son permission or not to use something etc.

Certainly, the boundary to walk away when abused is a vital one.

Which other boundaries do you have that are linked to your safety?

Thanks so much for helping!

 

Survive

[heronbird]

I think it is important for our boundaries to be as few as possible, also very consistent is important too, I notice pwBPD thrive on structure, even though you would hardly believe it.

One day, last year, dd had new bf, we had heard he was a druggie and lots or worrying things about him, never met him, dd rings us, says she wants to borrow £10, dh said shed have to come home for it as we hadnt seen her for ages. She came home and she was off her head, she couldnt walk, she kept bumping into door frames and falling down the stairs, her speech was slurred, this new bf was sitting upstairs in her bedroom while she was downstairs going mad for this money, she was shouting at us and we told her she couldnt go out in the state she was in as it was dangerous, this one time dh decided to stand in front of door and insist she didnt go out.


Eventually she started hitting and kicking him, we eventually had to let her go, but dh followed her and called the police, we wanted her to go to A&E the police called an ambulance but there were none so none would come , so in desperation we had her arrested for kicking her dad.

This was the worse thing we ever did, we should of just let her go, we were trying to enforce our boundaries and this is how it all went wrong, she could of ended up never speaking to us again and she would of had good reason, The Police were not geared up to take her and they kept her in a cell and were horrible to her, even worse than at A&E. I was so upset, it was the worse outcome. I wish we had just let her go.

Boundaries are a minefield and there is a fine line as with most things with BPD

[lbjnltx]

I think it is important for our boundaries to be as few as possible, also very consistent is important too, I notice pwBPD thrive on structure, even though you would hardly believe it.

I agree heronbird.  If we carefully examine our long list of "boundaries" we usually find that within that list there are really only a few that can be covered seperatly.

Eventually she started hitting and kicking him, we eventually had to let her go, but dh followed her and called the police, we wanted her to go to A&E the police called an ambulance but there were none so none would come , so in desperation we had her arrested for kicking her dad.

This was the worse thing we ever did, we should of just let her go, we were trying to enforce our boundaries and this is how it all went wrong, she could of ended up never speaking to us again and she would of had good reason, The Police were not geared up to take her and they kept her in a cell and were horrible to her, even worse than at A&E. I was so upset, it was the worse outcome. I wish we had just let her go.

Boundaries are a minefield and there is a fine line as with most things with BPD

This is a difficult situation to find oneself in and a good example of why it is so important to have well thought out boundaries.  The question I possed earlier

"are we willing to defend our boundary no matter what" becomes important.

If heronbird had the boundary of "If you become verbally abusive I will leave" would this situation have ever occurred?  If her d is not living at home and her boundary was "If you become verbally abusive towards me you will leave" would this situation have turned out differently?  heronbird found out that defending this boundary with police intervention was too costly for her family.  This is where fear and guilt come into the situation.  heronbird, in retrospect would have let her d go rather than hold her accountable for the physical abuse.  The situation became about punishment rather than protecting her boundary... .  that is how I see it... .  perhaps you see it differently heronbird.  At the point that the decision was made to try to protect her daughter from herself by not allowing her to leave the lines of the boundary became skewed by concern for her d's safety over concern for her/dh's safety.  This is not an easy situation!

A lot of unintended consequences came from the decision to call for help... .  is this anyones' fault?  How much we allow the consequences of our children't choices to come to them is up to each of us to decide.  Was heronbirds' daughter aware of the boundary in advance?  Was she aware that the police would be called if physical abuse occurred?  In a state of drug induced confusion would it have mattered to her d?  Is that relevant?

It is my opinion that to hold someone accountable for respecting my boundaries that person needs to know what my boundaries are.  My boundaries would remain in tact no matter the other person's state of mind.  Our BPDkids need to know that there are consequences for their behaviors... intended and unintended... .  they own them either way.  Do we have the strength and courage to let those consequences come to them?

This is the hardest part of parenting a child with mental illness.  My overall philosphy is that there are lessons to be learned for our kids if we are willing to allow them to come.  It is all so hard!

[Survive2012]

Dear Ibjnitx,

Thank you. Your posts are so important.

I understand why there must be very few boundaries: they must be at the very top of our priority list for survival. It's just like if there is an earthquake and you can only chose one thing to take with you while escaping: you take the most important one.

Therefore, the boundary of "when verbally or physically abused I walk away" seems to me the most precious one to keep and defend no matter what happens next.

I'll have this one and that's it.

And you are right also with the lessons to be learned by our kids.

Have a good day  

Survive

[Thursday]

Hello all and Happy New Year to everyone!

This is such an important discussion.

Survivor, I so identify with your plight in trying to understand what these unfamiliar terms mean, in tying to figure out what to do with a child who is simply NOT doing well.

When first encountering my dBPDSD21 when she was a younger teen, I was at first floored and taken aback at her behavior but certainly had no idea of how to go about interacting with her so I was constantly making mistakes. My mistakes were made worse by my assumption that what was wrong with her was simply bad behavior due to inconsistent, inattentive parenting and over permissiveness due to the family situation (Mom dx with cancer when SD was 7-8 and sick for the next five years, died when SD was 12-13)

A punitive response to my SDs behavior had hardly any impact on her. I've found she can be incredibly tolerant of deprivation AND she will stop at nothing to obtain what she truly feels entitled to- which then evolved sneakiness, lying, theft and an overall worsening of behavior.

And in the process so much damage is done. She lacks the empathy needed to fully "understand" what her behavior does to others. Boundaries are there, amoung other reasons, to protect me from her lack of empathy. My boundaries with my SD, in a very real way, allow us a relationship where she is not given free reign to do further damage. The past is the past, she has been forgiven but I am mindful of what has already transpired as I would be foolish to assume great changes have been made without evidence of such. In other words, today is a new day.

I really need a place to be with her without resentment and hurt and my boundaries free me to have that. My boundaries cut away the confusion of how to act when she crosses them. example- SD has a potty mouth. I prefer that she not f-bomb around me but my boundary about this is for out in public. I don't want to be at a table with her at a restaurant with people around us offended at her language. I've explained to her why it bothers me, I've offered to remind her if she makes a mistake and she knows I'll leave the situation if she continues. It may sound iike this is about her behavior. It is, however, for me. It makes me so uncomfortable to be in this situation because I have empathy for the other people. I can't enjoy myself if this is going on and don't want to be helpless to endure the situation because I can't control her behavior. So, I have a plan for getting myself out of the situation. And she knows exactly what that is.

The natural consequence of my boundary is that SD doesn't like to eat by herself in a restaurant and will have to do so if she choses not to clean up her language. Since she has successfully cleaned up her language in the past I know she can do so and I try to be a cheerleader for her as regards this... .  (I'm so proud of you when you are able to eat a meal and share conversation when you don't cuss! That shows maturity! Your stories are so cute, especially without the f-bombs! You know how uncomfortable it makes me when you curse in public and you didn't and that makes me feel so special, thank you for that!)

My SD is a real sucker for the above and I can do this for her... .  and for me it feels so much better to say uplifting and positive things than to wring my hands as she dysregulates and f-bombs even more until the gray-haired lady at the neighboring table gets up and comes to our table and tells SD she is a disgusting person and they are moving so her grandchild doesn't have to hear her foul-language, with a nasty  glare at me for "raising" such a beast!

Hope this discussion continues!

Thursday

[lbjnltx]

Wonderful post Thursday!  I like how you explain how your boundaries protect the relationship.

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Survive2012]

Thanks, Thursday,

Another step in learning.

This explains well. It isn't "against" her behavior, it is "for" your relationship!

Thanks so much. You are very helpful!

 Survive

[qcarolr]

A punitive response to my SDs behavior had hardly any impact on her. I've found she can be incredibly tolerant of deprivation AND she will stop at nothing to obtain what she truly feels entitled to- which then evolved sneakiness, lying, theft and an overall worsening of behavior.

Thursday - this so applies to my DD. When we evicted her with RO we believed this would motivate her to get into a program to get off the street. Nothing we were doing was making things "better". She endured an extreme level of deprivation and just basic grossness. Yet, in some way she found herself out there and I see her using these extreme experiences in positive ways with herself and her friends now. ie. she would make a great intake counselor for a recovery or homeless shelter situation - she has developed great compassion. And she is able to set needed boudnaries for herself.

I know this is not everyone's experience - our kids are each a unique mix of genetics and life experineces.

It is my opinion that to hold someone accountable for respecting my boundaries that person needs to know what my boundaries are.  My boundaries would remain in tact no matter the other person's state of mind.  Our BPDkids need to know that there are consequences for their behaviors... intended and unintended... .  they own them either way.  Do we have the strength and courage to let those consequences come to them?

This is the hardest part of parenting a child with mental illness.  My overall philosphy is that there are lessons to be learned for our kids if we are willing to allow them to come.  It is all so hard!

I have learned to be more direct with DD about what is important to me and how I plan to protect this. In the past I just walked away, usually in tears, and avoided the issue - made myself into the victim giving her so much power as the persecutor.

I also realize that her being out of our house was needed for me to get out of the way of her learning from her choices. I was always thinking she could not do it on her own - the guilt driven "i have to do this for her" after all the years of advocating for her in school with her learning disability.

It is easy to get really confused. This is a great topic - so much wisdom here.


gd is begging for my attention - gotta go for now.

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

Thanks, Thursday,

Another step in learning.

This explains well. It isn't "against" her behavior, it is "for" your relationship!

Thanks so much. You are very helpful!

 Survive

Well said Survive!

[frustratedmom]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

[Thursday]

frustratedmom,

I no longer have expectations for the sort of relationship with my SD that would involve the same directness and  honesty I enjoy in my other relationships. It would be nice but I am merely hopeful rather than waiting for this to happen.

SD no longer lives with us but she does give the impression that she wants to maintain a pleasant relationship with me and her father.

Lip service validation... .  ugh... .  I see what you mean in it's stark reality.

None of it is easy, some of it is unpalateable, most of it is unnatural. A lot of it hurts like H3LL.

thursday

[pattyt]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

True... .  so true.

[qcarolr]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

Even with things better with my DD26, she still wants things on her terms. She just doesn't get that from me. I have few expectations for my DD other than she maintain self-control in our house and for her to leave or go to her room if she cannot. She is gone at least half the days during the week including the nights.  You are so right about the desire for a 'relationship based on true honesty' being difficult, if not impossible. If this fantasy has crept into my replies on this post - I apologize.

Sometimes my boundaries do maintain seperation. That is a major consequence. And DD keeps reaching back out to contact again. I am getting better and better an not contacting her when she is gone. And being here for her at MY convenience, not hers.

I cannot imagine the pain for those whose children turn away and never reach out for you again. They have set their own rigid boundaries it seems. Oh the pain of this - brings tears to my eyes and an ache in my heart. This is a risk that is always there for many here.

Hope I am not rattling around in a circle today. qcr  

[Being Mindful]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

Dear FM,

Just something to think about in my experience... .  

My d has not lived at home for over a year and my boundaries still work. I don't like or accept her lifestyle, yet my boundaries still work to keep the relationship in tact. My d. can threaten no contact and I have learned that I cannot control this. Still my boundaries protect me and protect the relationship. In fact, my boundaries have helped to continue learning and growing within our relationship and has allowed her to grow.

Because boundaries have been so valuable, it breaks my heart that you have not experienced the same. They were a tough concept initially for me and I thought no way could one thing be so helpful. Those of us that have had the positive experience could try to help. Is there something we could do to help you out? My heart breaks for you in this regard.

Being Mindful