There is no "shoulds" in a relationship with pwBPD?

[Chosen]

uBPDh does stuff for me.  He's not totally lazy or irresponsible.  But in some aspects I think an adult person should be responsible for, he completely fails.  For example:

- when he arrives home from outside he would just let his clothes (dirty, clean, anything) anywhere- on the floor, on top of surfaces.  He wouldn't fold or put anything in the laundry basket, and I'd have no idea whether something should be cleaned or not.  Just 2 days ago he found out that all his trousers were placed on top of a chair, and he blamed me for not hanging them up so they're all wrinkly and now he's got nothing to wear.

- in the same way, he never puts anything away or tidy stuff.  After we're done grocery shopping, he goes into the home and just place the bag on the floor.  If I don't put the stuff away, it's there for a few days.  While that's annoying, it's ok as I know how to tidy groceries.  But he also doesn't tidy his own stuff.  He'd placed them on the floor, everywhere, and he'd refuse to throw away stuff which is obviously of no use (cardboard boxes- he claims we can use it to store stuff yet he never puts anything in the boxes).  I can't just throw away his belongings and most of the time I can't tell whether something is rubbish or not (many things I consider rubbish he refuse to have me throw away). 

I'm not the tidiest person but time and time again I do try to keep the house a little bit more organised.  I don't expect him to participate in the cleaning but his hoarding behaviour means I either throw away all my own stuff to make way for his rubbish, or he needs to slim down his collection of un-useful things.  Is there anybody who has any success in this area?  What’s your advice?  Just to stick it out and do my own share?  Any thoughts welcome, thanks!

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[tryingtogetit]

Well yeah, although we learn that BPDs have the emotional state similar to children, I'd say there's things they should be expected to do.

It probably boils down to limits and boundaries. He over steps a boundary by making you responsible for his personal things (just like he'll make you responsible for his personal feelings).

You do not need to except that responsibility. And it might be good for him when he learns to take on that responsibility. It's not your responsibility to know what clothes are clean or to fold them so make that clear and don't deviate.

There will be different ways to enforce your boundaries. Indeed you coud throw his stuff away but I agree that you might be overstepping a boundary yourself.

But you could first tell him that you need him to clear his stuff and them tell him what you will do if he doesn't. What you could do is stick all things that are unclear to you on one place for him to sort out and that in a weeks time or so you will throw out whatever is still there.

It does sound like he has hoarding tendencies so you prob will want to address this before your house gets taken over by all his mess. Educate yourself about hoarders and learn that you don't want to go there.

Good luck

[laelle]

I generally just wash everything over again.  If its professional office clothes, send him to the laundry to have them cleaned and pressed.  Maybe after he pays a few laundry charges he will take better care of his stuff.  I had the same with my ex who would eat his dinner at his desk and then either leave it there for 3 weeks until I removed it or put it in the sink with food still in it.  I started to just leave it on his desk or tell him that I wont wash the dishes or cook when someone leaves food in the sink.  Not blaming, just a generalized statement.

[itsnotmyfaultanymore]

Hi Chosen, it seems you may be married to my uBPDw... .  the way you describe your pwBPD 

I know for our r/s my pwBPD set the boundary (or should I say broke me like a hourse) around HER laundry very early on - just after we got married (she tossed a brand new cashmere sweater in the laundry hamper and I proceeded to wash and dry it... .  It didn't survive... .    ... .  let me tell you... .  she wasn't happy... .  )

Here are my new rules (I do 90% of the laundry). Things have only recently started to change.

1) If its in the laundry hamper it gets washed - cold water (if it needs dry cleaning... .  I would suggest you NOT put it in the dirty laundry hamper).

2) I will not put her laundry away. I wash and dry - but will not iron or fold. I gently place her laundry in a basket at her side of the bed (where it generally stays).

After I set these new rules in place she asked/demanded changes - all her shirts must be hung to dry. I agreed. I will hang them... .  but I will NOT un-hang them (is she doesn't pull them off the line and fold them... .  then that is where they stay).

As I write my rules down I can say honestly they still seem rather one-sided - I guess this is my co-dependant tendency... .  

[yeeter]

'Shoulds' are an interesting concept.  Even in a relationship with healthy adults, the root of a LOT of conflict is due to preconceived expectations.  As I age, I realize that there are very very few 'shoulds' - simply stylistic preferences.

Dirty dishes, clothes unwashed, etc etc... .  pretty much all stylistic differences (at least up until the point someone is getting ill due to unsanitary practices).

I live with a hoarder.  Its really stressful and to me, a terrible way to live.  But she likes it.  I could argue that she 'should' clean up and let some things go... .  but thats really just my preference (I have known a few hoarders in my life that were very happy to grow old with the style).  The only way I have been able to deal with it:  carve out sections of the house that are 'mine', where I get to keep it the way I like.  A night stand.  A workshop.  A bedroom/office.  The rest I have to 'share' and live with - and if I tried to keep up with organizing all her stuff it would consume me, and I do not want to allow that.

[Rockylove]

I'm laughing so hard right now that tears are streaming!  I've joked about writing a book "Not All Flat Surfaces Are Created Equal" because to him, every flat surface is an opportunity to plop something on!  I can't stand the clutter and like to keep flat surfaces clear of piles of stuff.  Just an example... .  We're still in the process of moving into our house and haven't unpacked the boxes of books, but every book case is full... .  of his crap!  

He has 2 chests of drawers, a dresser, the under dresser for the waterbed and 2 closets full of clothes (2 boxes of unpacked clothes as well) and there are piles of clothes on the floor on his side of our room.  I'm not even going to venture a guess as to the last time he wore MOST of it! 

I don't completely understand hoarding because I long ago released myself from the obligation of keeping unwanted and unnecessary items.  I don't have the attachment to "stuff" that he does and we've talked about that.  Interestingly enough, during one of his recent rages he made a ridiculous remark about a washing machine that I'd bought which was for US.  In an email he said "i don't want to use that washer you bought because i have one and it would be taking advantage of your washer, and i really need one of my own so that i'll have some washer security for when you leave me for someone better."  

yup... .  we have 2 clothes washers in the basement!  Good grief!  

He piles things on top of other things then can't find anything he's looking for.  Geez... .  go figure!  But I'm not responsible for finding his stuff and he'll ask me if I've seen something but other than giving him a response, I don't make a move to help him find it.  He's gotten much better about not cluttering the kitchen table and if he doesn't put anything on my desk because he knows that certain "flat surfaces" are just off limits to his clutter.  

Point is that I see that some of this need to keep every scrap of paper, etc is laziness... .  but some of it is the need to hold on to "things" out of fear.  He's respectful of my boundaries and that is very important to me.  I may not understand his fear, but I'm sure that at some point more information will surface about that as well.  

[angel1]

Yes Indeed.

Mine does alot of things in and around the house and for me also.

... .  but the qualifier is this.   Only what he decides to do and only when he decides to do it.    

It doesn't matter how long a day I work everything is my responsibility UNLESS he decides to help.

It didn't used to be this way.   He used to help with things... .  cook meals, clean.    

If I go to work and the house/dishes are a mess and trash overflowing, that is what I come home too.   There is no part of him that looks at that and thinks - hey, I was home all day long and could have taken care of some of this for her.  

Nope, his agenda for the day is busy with his things and he has told me multiple times,  'I work all day long, I just don't go to work'    And yes he does do things... .  just not what HAS to be done.

[yeeter]

And yes he does do things... .  just not what HAS to be done.

How does anyone determine what 'HAS' to be done?

How many 'HAVE TO's, are not really?

[angel1]

hmm

Well for me, it depends on the comfort level of the people living in the house.

My partner is a neat freak... .  everything in it's place.  He just doesn't want to put it there. 

Some things are 'have to be dones' like feeding children, animals, cleanliness so someone doesn't get sick.  Others are personal choice.

I am have periods of untidyness.  Just to tired to get to it.   Eventually I'll face a rage cause he can't find something.

He'll slam some doors and make the house uncomfortable if I haven't gone to the store and there are no cookies to eat.

Example:  I cleaned the house by myself for six hours last week.   Then I stopped to make a sandwich.   I left the onion on the counter... .  maybe 15 minutes or so while I ate.    Suddenly he is there... .  what is that onion doing on the counter?

... .  now this is from a man who drops empty packets onto the floor for me to pick up when he is in a mood.   Who can't even close the bread wrapper... .  

Once again, I think "why do I do this".   In the past a past life, I went a month without cleaning to teach my then teenagers what happened when "mum just stopped".   I worked well.  Point made.

Of course I tried it this time.   Rage.

Now each time I have a choice.   Rage, slamming doors, uncomfortable atmospher or just get it done and be done with it.

Right now I am thinking through alot of things... .  but this is not a situation overlooked just sidelined for the moment.

[yeeter]

Now each time I have a choice.   Rage, slamming doors, uncomfortable atmospher or just get it done and be done with it.

So really, this is doing something a certain way, in order to avoid a rage.

We have all done this.  Sometimes its worth it (little things), sometimes its not.  And if too many are piled on it becomes too much and we are just walking on egg shells all the time.

My T used to challenge me a lot on these things... .  so what if he rages?  What if you still didnt do it?  Lots of tools here on how to deal with a rage - letting them happen and managing through them is part of the long term work of a 'stayer'.

[yeeter]

Point is that I see that some of this need to keep every scrap of paper, etc is laziness... .  but some of it is the need to hold on to "things" out of fear.  He's respectful of my boundaries and that is very important to me.  

I may not understand his fear, but I'm sure that at some point more information will surface about that as well.  

For my wife, there are a combination of dynamics involved.  First is this very very strong value of 'frugality' - the impulse to save anything and everything that might have some potential 'use'.  Then combined, is a deep emotional association with these items.  Any thing that our children have ever drew, painted, scribbled.  And some fear... .  record keeping from the beginning of time (what if she 'needs' one of these old scraps of paper with something documented).  And finally memories/honor.  A lot of items, there is deep association with her childhood or parts of her family.  If anything was ever owned or used by a family member, such as her grandmother, it would be dishonorable to dispose of it because she loved and honored that individual, so treat her material items the same (no matter if it is a 70 year old broken spatula - its all the same).

So combine all these and its easy to see how it can quickly build up and overwhelm her, which then puts her in gridlock to doing anything about it.

And more importantly, none of these battles are ones I can fight for her.  She has to decide how important it is on her own... .  and the piece that is hard to swallow at first is, that these items are more overwhelming (I could say more important) to her than her own marriage.  So yep, I am a lower priority than holding on to all this stuff.  Just reality.  I have to adapt and make choices for my own self based on this reality - continual nagging doesnt do either of us any good.

[Chosen]

I tend to agree that they hold on to stuff due to fear- I have been told before that the mess they create probably reflect their inner turmoil, which I suppose is a reasonable way to explain this too.

The problem is, when there is a bit of "rubbish" (in my mind), like that fan he broke the other time when he was raging, I would ask him every once in a while whether it should be thrown away, he would say no, it has to be fixed, but he never takes any action to fix it.  It seems like there are only 2 choices for me: A) Take it to be fixed so it's no longer rubbish and it can be used (although I think it's really broken), B) Just leave it there for him to sort out (which is what I've been doing).

Neither choice seems good.  One will make me feel resentful because I'm taking up too much, and the other just makes a mess... .  is there really a third choice?

Oh... .  by the way, last night we went grocery shopping again.  When we went him he was expecting me to tidy the table.  I was putting away the groceries.  He asked me, "Why can't you just clean the table?  You can just leave the groceries in the bag on the floor."  Oh well   somebody's gotta put them away right?

[tryingtogetit]

Overall I think there's a common theme here.

All posters on this thread seem to:

- do more household chores than their BPD

- face rage if these chores aren't done according to the BPD's standards

- feel there's no choice but to accept when the BPD fails to our standards

This raises the question that seems the root of this board:

"Why do we put up with that?"

In practical terms: why do some of us (me included) go out of their way to make sure the BPD has clothes cleaned and ready if they actually make it harder (not putting things in the basket) to do so?

Why do we take sole responsibility for things they can do as well (clean the table, put away groceries)

Why do let them clog up our homes (and lives) with their stuff, hang ups?

Most likely the answer to all these is: we're afraid for them

[united for now]

Should is an evaluative belief that changes depending on the situation and individual. In essence, as Yeeter said, there are few complete "shoulds" in our lives - everything is relative.

To go along with that, it's important to recognize that it is easy to fall into the enabling role where we do more than we feel we "should" and feel resentment. This is our unhealthy part of the dance, our need to step in, help, take over, have things a certain way, feel impatience towards how slow/poor someone else is doing something.

Our fear of being raged upon is also a factor, in that we know what will tick them off (dirty clothes, dinner not on time, being late, chewing our food too loudly) so we then tend to put up with some pretty horrible stuff to avoid ragephobia


solutions

Determine your core values (I have to have "this". This will help you prioritize what you can and can't put up with.

Figure out how you can help get your loved one more involved, ie giving them some choices (would you rather put the groceries away or clear off the table?).

Give them a some sort of limit (time - the items located here will be moved into the garage in X days) or create your own personal zone (this room/area is mine).

Refuse to take responsibility. They can try to shift it onto you, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up (ie, play DUMB - "I'm not sure honey".

[waverider]

i have exactly the same issue. No amount of boundaries is going to change that bottom lin emindset which I believed is based on the following.

Is this an uninteresting background task without lots of praise to be received? No>> no value in it, low return for me>>:)ont do it

Is this a generous gift giving special thing with expected thanks, praise and general brownie points? Yes>>  High value return for me >>do it. (Also get to throw it back as a look what I did for you recently ace= extra double bonus value points)


Its not doing things to be helpful that is important, it is being seen to be generous and receiving praise that is important

[tryingtogetit]

united, i really liked you're ragephobia link!

Also, totally agree that we're generally so enabling, we do need to decide what we're responsible for and what not and stick with that.

Also recognise what you write waverider. Wanted to add that my pwBPD has a clear idea about the social status of chores. 'Mopping the floor is just humiliating' (guess that's I am supposed to feel while mopping?). Cleaning certain things it too gross (but good enough for me?).

And feelings of being looked down upon while doing day-today things. Again, it'll fall on me.

Do get a sense that there's a power element to it all... .