Can it go Smoothly?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

One more thought- I know Matt and others have recommended she not be allow to stay at our home. Im beginning to agree. It's disruptive to the kids and me. My L can get and order of protection or restraining order in place before she arrives. She struck her mother recently and the police were called. She bit my wrist last time she was back. She is violent at times. I started thinking why should I make arrangements for the kids and me to live somewhere else while she's here at our house alone. She's going to be very angry when she gets served anyway so getting dropped off at a hotel shouldn't make matters much worse. The entire process is going to be dicy... .  

[Jai Yen]

One more thought- I know Matt and others have recommended she not be allow to stay at our home. Im beginning to agree. It's disruptive to the kids and me. My L can get and order of protection or restraining order in place before she arrives. She struck her mother recently and the police were called. She bit my wrist last time she was back. She is violent at times. I started thinking why should I make arrangements for the kids and me to live somewhere else while she's here at our house alone. She's going to be very angry when she gets served anyway so getting dropped off at a hotel shouldn't make matters much worse. The entire process is going to be dicy... .  

[Matt]

If she is in the home - with you, or with the kids, or by herself - she might decide not to leave.  She might decide to accuse you of violence or of something else.  She might provoke a fight.  She might call the police and tell them anything.  These things happen - it happened to me and had a big impact on my life.

If you meet with her in a public place - with a non-family adult third party present - your risk of all this is much, much lower.

So yes, I don't mean to repeat myself, but I would very strongly recommend that you change the locks and not allow her to come into your home.  If the kids want to spend time with her, they can visit her at her hotel, or meet her at the mall, or whatever.  They are old enough to understand if you explain, "Your mom gets very upset sometimes, and that could cause big problems.  I have a friend whose wife got upset when they were home alone, and accused him of assault - the police investigated and found out it wasn't true - but in the meantime it was a huge problem for the whole family.  I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen, by talking with her in a public place.  You guys can visit with her anywhere you want, except here at home."

[Rose1]

And if she trashes the furniture it will be at a hotel, not at your place. Their insurance will cover it - yours probably not.

[Jai Yen]

I'm in total agreement now. I must take measures to prevent both the chance of her just staying at our home - say she is too depressed or whatever and contacting her employer for the semester off. That would really be unacceptable. Also, just how disruptive it would be to have her here. I'll find out from my L today more about how to prevent her from staying here.

[Matt]

In my state, what matters is not whose name is on the mortgage or lease.  What matters is who has been living there.  Since you have been living there and she hasn't, you have a right to be there and she doesn't.

[Jai Yen]

I'm trying to envision her response upon arrival in the airport and a process server servers her the divorce papers. After that she is driven to a hotel because I plan to get a restraining order to prevent her from turning our house upside down literally and figuratively. Should I get her from the airport? I wonder who should do that? I don't the kids to witness this drama. She can see the kids after she settles down. I have several friends who would be willing to go with me to airport. Then after she's served she may freak out... .  Crying and carrying on asking to see her kids etc... .  The drama I'm envisioning is weighing heave on me. The "would if's" are driving me crazy - would if she refuses to leave the airport or to get out of the car etc... .  Obviously, I will not touch her or force her. I suppose the police could be involved. Anyway, tough one. My folks just remind me that that's her problem but I need plans to deal with events like that. Any ideas? Experiences others have had?

[Matt]

Just brainstorming - I didn't have to do this... .  

I would suggest that you put a letter with the documents to be served.  Keep it simple:

"I'm sorry it needed to be done this way but based on my lawyer's advice it's how I had to proceed.

"If you would like to meet with my attorney while you are here, his name is hit_ and his number is hit_.

Of course it will not work for you to stay at the house, but I have checked and found a few good places nearby which have rooms - Hotel 1, phone hit, Hotel 2, phone hit, Hotel 3, phone hit.

"If you would like to spend time with the kids, please let them know and arrange a place where you can do that.  Any weeknight between 6:00 and 8:00, or weekends between 8:00 and 8:00.  I will be glad to drop them off and pick them up."

A simple gesture like this might at least let her know that it is not your intent to hurt her.  But be careful not to try to make her feel better - you can't.  Keep your distance (physical and emotional) and look to solve the small, practical problems, like giving her your lawyer's phone number and suggesting nearby hotels.

[livednlearned]

I'm trying to envision her response upon arrival in the airport and a process server servers her the divorce papers. After that she is driven to a hotel because I plan to get a restraining order to prevent her from turning our house upside down literally and figuratively. Should I get her from the airport? I wonder who should do that? I don't the kids to witness this drama. She can see the kids after she settles down. I have several friends who would be willing to go with me to airport. Then after she's served she may freak out... .  Crying and carrying on asking to see her kids etc... .  The drama I'm envisioning is weighing heave on me. The "would if's" are driving me crazy - would if she refuses to leave the airport or to get out of the car etc... .  Obviously, I will not touch her or force her. I suppose the police could be involved. Anyway, tough one. My folks just remind me that that's her problem but I need plans to deal with events like that. Any ideas? Experiences others have had?

I planned my exit for a year. I had a secret storage locker (my L suggested it, in case he trashed the house, or locked me out and I needed things if I had to stay somewhere else), had photocopied all of our important documents, retained an L, and I rented an apartment. I set up a secondary account that had my name on it in case he froze our accounts. N/BPDxh was going to be out of a town for a conference, and my parents were flying out to help me move out while N/BPDx was gone. He knew something was up, and became so severely enraged a week before the plan was supposed to happen that I fled. Fortunately, there was a plan in place. It was a Friday -- I drove to S11's school and picked him up mid-day. I called the police and they escorted me to the house during the day so I could remove my personal belongings. I was able to move into my apartment a week early. I took out half the funds in our shared account. I blocked him from accessing any records, including credit report, in case he tried to find me.

It was awful. I feel sick thinking about it. He came home that day and his wife and son were gone, a total complete unexpected massive slap in the face. I can't believe I did something like that to another person. I even went back 3 weeks later while N/BPDx was at work, and with my parents helping me and a moving company took the rest of my stuff, about half of the furniture. We did it while he was at work, and I finally got my dog (the police wouldn't let me do it when they were in the house because the pets were considered marital property).

How can you make it easier for yourself? I don't know. My guess is that nothing you do will make it any easier. I wrote a letter with the help of my T, and sent that to N/BPDx. It didn't make any difference -- he denied everything and threw it all back in my face. But it gave him something to work with, other than total radio silence and a missing wife and son.

More likely you are dealing with the usual FOG stuff that nons experience, and you're swimming in it right now as you prepare to leave. Now that I'm out, and I see N/BPDx's behavior so clearly, I realize I did the right thing, even if it was an awful way to do it. But I did it because I was afraid of him, and that forced my hand.

It's good that you are playing this through in your head so that you can plan accordingly and protect yourself. Again, I think the element of surprise is actually a compassionate thing to do. It sequesters the violent reaction away from you, and takes some of the venom out of the equation. It's ultimately a protective measure for both of you.

[Jai Yen]

Thank you for sharing your story. I can't imagine the stress you endured! Very scary situation. It sounds like your careful planning paid off.

If I don't take care of serving her right away when she arrives and I allow her to come back home it will get ugly for the kids and me quickly. I refused to talk to her by phone or Skype for about 3 weeks in Dec. I still have a boundary set that we can not discuss emotion stuff until we go to counseling when she's back (just to give her hope). She in her twisted way can't wait to punish me for that my radio silence. I experienced her intense raging in September the last time she was back. She broke into my gmail account and found the intake info for my T which clearly spelled out my desire to divorce. Her rants and rages were bad before but she was relentless. All night screaming at me, trying to hit me, and threatening to hurt herself. I was in utter despair. This combined with the fact that my daughter is afraid of her and is so ready for this to be over gives me clear focus. I'm more concerned about the unexpected. I need to work through the plan very carefully. I have an email from her sis telling me about how she struck her own mother when she was drunk and her mother called the police. Hopefully this is enough proof to get a restraining order in place due to her violent behavior.

Matt, yes I'll definitely have a letter with the papers. My L plans to write it. She doesn't have many people she can call locally for support. She'll have her computer so she can Skype people in her country. There are options in place if she doesn't play nice- police, mental health evaluations etc... .  None of which helps matters much.

Several years ago I was in San Fran with her at a very nice French restaurant. The kids were back home with my parents. She drank too much and started ranting at me. I was super embarrassed and walked back to the hotel w/o her. She took a cab back about 30 minutes later and got out of the cab and ran at me swing her fists. Again all night in the hotel going nuts. Next day, "Sorry about that. I don't know what got into me." We had lunch, went shopping and watched a movie. I was still numb. For her it was like nothing really happened. That's one of too many incidences that ended similarly. They just don't seem to see it in themselves. I can't wait to be done with that. I guess I am now for all intents and purposes. I refuse to be alone with her again... .  EVER.

[Rose1]

If she lashes out at process servers at the airport, then airport security will take care of it. She probably won't because they often behave when it can go badly against them. Then again your ex has shown she will behave badly in public so who knows. Don't do it yourself - process servers must have experience with this sort of thing and likely know how to handle it, plus are not emotionally involved. She is capable of getting a cab and probably will - maybe to your house so be prepared for that. if that happens, get her to wait outside while you call another cab and take her to a motel -let the cab driver pick her up and don't come out of the house otherwise you are in violation of the protection order too - be prepared for a number of eventualities - have a plan in place and that way at least it should go more smoothly. You can't stop her from acting out and yelling and screaming - you can have her removed - by police if necessary. That might even slow her down somewhat for a while - consequences often do. Take care

[ForeverDad]

Your lawyer can tell you whether it's okay to change the locks.  Or... .  

":)arn, I lost that key again, it was the last one!  Got to call the locksmith, may as well just replace all the locks or re-key them all and make sure every key has stamped 'do not duplicate'."

[Matt]

Your lawyer can tell you whether it's okay to change the locks.  Or... .  

":)arn, I lost that key again, it was the last one!  Got to call the locksmith, may as well just replace all the locks or re-key them all and make sure every key has stamped 'do not duplicate'."

Well it's good to consult with your attorney, but if he doesn't have experience with a person like your wife, put your own safety and your kids' safety first, and legal fine-points second.

And your "safety" includes "safe from being put in jail".

I talked with a criminal defense attorney after getting out of jail - my wife accused me of assault - and he told me, ":)o not be in the same place as her - ever - without a non-family adult third party present."  I remember that specific phrase - "non-family adult third party".  He said if I would not live by that rule I should get another attorney, because he would not take my case.  "I can't keep you out of jail unless you follow that rule.  If you continue to be alone with her, you will go back to jail, and it will be much worse this time."

[livednlearned]

You may want to have the kids stay elsewhere that night, just so they don't have to witness a scene. It's good that they are older and can process things better than if they were little kids, but still. My son saw his dad have an episode, and it's probably going to haunt him for years.

[ForeverDad]

On the other hand, if the kids being elsewhere would leave you alone, that wouldn't be good either, to be there alone without witnesses.  They're nearly adults, they've dealt with her chaos for a long time, a little longer shouldn't be an issue, they may actually be a protection for you.

[livednlearned]

On the other hand, if the kids being elsewhere would leave you alone, that wouldn't be good either, to be there alone without witnesses.  They're nearly adults, they've dealt with her chaos for a long time, a little longer shouldn't be an issue, they may actually be a protection for you.

I respectfully disagree -- kids with BPD parents go through enough. Find another non-family third-party adult to be around, like Matt suggests. Let the kids be kids. That's not drama any child needs to bear witness to.

[ForeverDad]

On the other hand, if the kids being elsewhere would leave you alone, that wouldn't be good either, to be there alone without witnesses.  They're nearly adults, they've dealt with her chaos for a long time, a little longer shouldn't be an issue, they may actually be a protection for you.

I respectfully disagree -- kids with BPD parents go through enough. Find another non-family third-party adult to be around, like Matt suggests. Let the kids be kids. That's not drama any child needs to bear witness to.

I hear you.  Good, just don't be alone, it's too easy for you to be framed, attacked - or conned/guilted to relax your guard and weaken your new boundaries.

[Matt]

If it was me, I would continue to live where I'm living, and the kids would continue to live with me.  There is no need for that to change, even for one night.

I'd get the locks changed, and I wouldn't pay a lawyer to give me his opinion on that subject.  If she comes to your house and causes problems - and if you go to jail as a result - will the lawyer have to deal with all that chaos?

I'd either get a temporary restraining order, or at least let the other party know that she is not to come to my home - period.  If she comes anyway, I would call the police without any hesitation or negotiation.

It's long past time to dance around these issues.  She is not safe to be around, so you should communicate with her through your lawyer, or by e-mail.  If there is a need to talk to her directly, it should be in a public place, with a non-family adult third party present.  (But if you think about it, there probably isn't any need to have any face-to-face contact with her.)

[Jai Yen]

Changing the locks is no problem. She doesn't have a key anyway - not that I'm aware of - but I'll still get them changed. Small price to pay to make sure.

I haven't heard from my L yet about the restraining order etc... .  I'll do everything in my power, lawfully, to make sure she doesn't stay here with the kids. Also, I will not have the kids witness her getting served in airport and brought to a hotel. I'm not clear on the bring her to a hotel process yet but I absolutely will not be alone with her. I have a number of friends who can help. She knows them so that might be an issue. Maybe better to have "others" handle it. I do not know. All the various ways she can respond are weighing on mind as but after she's served it won't matter as much. She'll likely cry and carry on. She may refuse to be taken to a hotel and demand to see the kids. There must be a tactful way to handle this process. Even after she's taken to a hotel the uncertainty will continue. I'll have a letter from my L explaining the situation etc... .  But I don't know how she'll react. Get drunk and have the hotel management call the police? She'll have jet lag but when she's in her special state of mind all beats are off - she find this strange energy. Will she take a cab to our home? Of course, if she does that I'll simply call the police w/o hesitation. The kids will just wait in their rooms. They've witnessed all sorts of crazy stuff through the years and I've educated them in as clinical of a way about their mother's condition. Anyway, it's going to happen. The unknown is just that. I'll prepare as much as I can.

[Matt]

Some hotels - especially the ones near a big airport - have a free shuttle from the airport to the hotel.  It's not your job to figure this out for her, but it would be thoughtful to check that out and maybe provide her with a list of options.

She is intelligent and educated - she's managing to travel internationally without help - so she will figure it all out.

[Rose1]

I agree - it's not a good idea to arrange to drive her to a hotel. Shuttle buses are wonderful and if all else fails, a taxi which she can organise.  Shuttle is much cheaper. That's how people travel internationally, you go through customs and get on with it.

I have another perspective on children seeing bad behaviour - it's to some extent age related. My D saw her father smash dishes and threatened suicide at age 10 (she doesn't remember the suicide threat) and we left the house - this is not a great memory for her but happened so quickly it was unavoidable.

On the other hand she saw and dealt with some of his bad behaviour from the age of 18 or so up (now D27) and seeing coping behaviour, boundaries and how these things can be handled was very beneficial for her - she ended up using some of the strategies herself. At 18 she went on a trip with her BPDf backpacking and had great boundaries -her rule was no talk about me or her relationship with her grandparents. Firm boundary. We talked about exit plans and how to get back from overseas on her own if necessary, made sure she had her tickets (he wanted to keep them), travel insurance, passport and itinerary. She picked the backpackers and did all the research because he would have had them in some of the all night party places and she didn't want to do that. Overall the training was very good for her.

He over the next couple of years ranted and raved to her, threatened suicide, continually put me down at every opportunity and she learned how to deal with that behaviour very well - she said she would call an ambulance because she had seen me do the same thing successfully. Don't forget the kids will have a relationship with the BPD parent much longer than we will and need to learn coping skills. The BPD parent will eventually act out just as badly with the children as they do with us.  Currently D27 is NC with her father because of the way he and his current w have behaved over the last 4 year - he seems to be dis-regulating and getting worse and his wife appears to be stirring things up for whatever reason - threatened to call the police on D27 last time she went up there. The behaviour is the behaviour and they will see it as it deteriorates and will need help with coping skills.

IMO if your kids see their mother turn up uninvited, making a scene and you have prepared for it and handle it as well as possible - don't let her in, call the police, then that is just as likely to send a good message to older children. Sorry LNL - I know your son will have some scars from his younger years, it pains me to see that in my kids too, but I'm pretty impressed with their ability to deal with things and set boundaries at a much younger age than I did.

Rose

[livednlearned]

Sorry LNL - I know your son will have some scars from his younger years, it pains me to see that in my kids too, but I'm pretty impressed with their ability to deal with things and set boundaries at a much younger age than I did.

Yeah, it's a knee-jerk reaction  I agree with you that we teach kids how to deal with these things, and they need the skills. Like you say, they'll continue to have r/s with their BPD parent long after we are over here on the boards dealing with them in other ways (waves to the judge).

But you make an important point -- best to tell them what is about to go down. Give them a choice if possible. "Your mother is flying home and I am serving her divorce papers at the airport. She will be staying at a hotel and might come here and make a scene. I am going to stay, and the locks will be changed. If you want to stay here, cool. I'm the grown up and have a plan if she acts out. If not, and you'd rather not be here, let's think of a good place where you will feel comfortable."

That's a similar way of teaching them another set of useful tools. Making choices and having boundaries.

[Matt]

That's a similar way of teaching them another set of useful tools. Making choices and having boundaries.

Yeah, a whole bunch of good tools.

Having a practical plan, staying calm, dealing with reality not fantasy, etc.

They should also be able to see that the chaos is coming from Mom and the solutions are coming from Dad.

[Jai Yen]

Thanks all excellent insight. I'm keeping my kids posted on developments. I feel the same way regarding them developing coping skills and setting boundaries. My D17 is already doing that by refusing to discuss our marriage or me with her mother. My son is getting closer. I've encourage them both to sign up on this site as they can see that many, many families deal with similar situations with BPD family members... .  

[ForeverDad]

For various reasons the forum had to develop a rule over the years that minors can't post, just so you know.  Since the boards are anonymous I don't know of a way to limit registering and reading if ages aren't declared.  It's entirely possible that some of our 'lurking' members who never post are minors, we'll never know.

[Jai Yen]

Oh, I didn't realize that. My D17 has looked at the site. Not sure if she registered. I can see both sides on that issue. My D17 is capable of understanding the dynamics of BPD (w/NPD traits) etc... .  To some, adults even, this stuff can be really disturbing. Member must be 18 if guessing. I'm going to get the Walking on Eggshells book for my kids after this storm of events passes. Are there other resources to help teens to better understand DPs and learn coping skills?

[Matt]

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" is an excellent place to start.

One of the authors, Randi Kreger, founded this community, by the way, though she is not here much now.

[theodore]

I gave my d16.5 advanced warning that I was divorcing her mom.  I explained it in a "matter-of-fact" way and arranged for d16.5 to spend the weekend at a friend's house.  I also called my local police department and clued them in.

[Jai Yen]

I will definitely let the kids know what is going to happen when their mother arrives. Great idea to let the police know too. My L said she'll have the restraining order in place before my STBX arrives. I'm relieved. I also agree with others that it is not my responsibility to get her from the airport. She'll get served and get a letter from my L. My L's letter will inform her of what is going on and that we want to cooperate. I'm not sure if I'll arrange a hotel for her or leave that up to her. Ideally, she gets a hotel and finds her own attorney soon after arrival. My L's letter may recommend L's that are good at settling. Not my deal if she freaks and gets thrown in jail or the hospital or just returns to her home country. I understand none of that need be of great concern to me. I'm not responsible. Anyway, I'm liking the idea of not getting her with a friend at the airport- it likely would violate the restraining order anyway... .  and lead cause more problems... .