It hasn't been a easy weekend

[Chosen]

This past weekend I was feeling pretty hormonal, and really tired, so I slept in quite late on Saturday. 

When I woke up, uBPDh made me lunch.

I have lots of work to do, so I was feeling very tense about having overslept, and after my lunch I got upset and wanted to do my work right away.  So I snapped at him.

Oops.

He went mad.  Much better in the past because he didn't call me names and stuff, but still very black/ white thinking, and began discounting every single thing I've ever done for him.  I was extremely emotional, and I cried and told him I couldn't control myself, I'm sorry, he said he's forgiven me, and I knew that this wouldn't be the end of it.

For the rest of that night, he went on and off complaining about how he has all the responsibility and I have none; how if he ever lost his job I would kick him out of our home, etc.

The hardest bit for me was to let those words get in one ear and out the other, to hear the feelings and not believe in those facts.

Several times I tried to validate his feelings and he would say, “This is not just the way I feel, this is the reality.”  Well, true, to him his feelings are reality. 

Then I would ask him how I can help him feel less upset now?  He would say, “You should respect/ appreciate/ whatever me more in future.”  I would say, “I will try to do that, so you will feel respected/ appreciated/ whatever.”  He would say, “You’re a liar, you’re all talk and no action.”  Then I would be silent and he would say, “See?  Even now you’re indifferent.” 

I would try really, really hard not to JADE, and finally, I calmly said, “I know you are upset and I don’t want to see you upset too, so I asked what I can do to help you feel better now.  I will not make promises about what I will do in future because you will say I’m just all talk.  If you think of something I can do to help you feel better, please tell me and then you will know if I will do it or just talk.”  And then he would go back to, “You should respect/ appreciate/ whatever me more in future.”

Fortunately at some point he shushed me and then he didn’t say anything anymore and the next day he gradually got a bit better (still whiny in the morning but by afternoon he was more cheery).

I just want to say, it is so hard.   The flat is under my name (I inherited it so I didn’t earn it or anything), and I pay all the bills (even though he earns more than me; his rationale is that if I had lived on my own I would be paying all those bills anyway- and somehow he believes he contributes financially to those bills), and I never expected him to pay me anything.  And he goes about all the time saying how if he doesn’t bring home and income I will kick him out and I will not love him?  I know it’s his insecurity talking, but it’s insulting to me too…

Tell me, how do I let go of these words and stop letting them eat me up inside?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[eeyore]

why is it eating you up?  You felt hormonal, you behaved a bit grumpy.  Ok let it go.   We all have bad days even the most perfect people have bad days.  Chalk it up to a bad day. 

On another note.  If you pay all the bills then what does it matter what he brings home for income?  If he lived on his own he'd be paying all his own bills as well.  So why is this a problem in the relationship?

[Chosen]

why is it eating you up?  You felt hormonal, you behaved a bit grumpy.  Ok let it go.   We all have bad days even the most perfect people have bad days.  Chalk it up to a bad day. 

This is not the bit that's eating me up... .  yes I feel bad that I snapped but it happens... .  

On another note.  If you pay all the bills then what does it matter what he brings home for income?  If he lived on his own he'd be paying all his own bills as well.  So why is this a problem in the relationship?

This is not a problem.  I never said anything about him not paying half of the bills, or whatever.  What eats me up is how he keeps saying I'm with him because he supports me financially, and if he doesn't bring home any money I will kick him out. 

When he's saying this I can hardly say, "But I'm with you now, and never ask you to pay the bills.", but it has absolutely no truth.  I know he's saying this because he feels insecure, but it's hard not to question myself and often I feel like asking him in return, “Do you REALLY feel I’m this sort of horrible person who’s only with you for material gain?”  It’s hard not to feel at least a tiny bit bitter that your husband views you that way.

[beachtalks]

How do you not let it eat you up inside?  The same way I do and was suggested: you chalk it up as a bad day.  Tell me, do you ever have good days where you can talk about things openly and calmly?  If so, save this for one of those days.  If he is mentally ill or recovering, you have to give the handicap if you want to make this work.  

   

Sounds like we had very similar weekends.  Sounds like the someones can dish it out, but not take it back.  And sometimes it truly feels like these someone's are picking fights?  Could this be possible though?  Would anyone in their right mind do this?  ... .  er wait, I think I just answered my own question, .  

I guess I am lucky that my BPDh and I had three good weeks.  He is now acting like I did when I was in my twenties, coming up with reasons to be upset out of seemingly nowhere--stirring up old stuff.  I did this when I was feeling insecure and needed some more attention or reassurance from my partners.  I guess he is extra needy right now, so I will attempt to help that.  (I am glad I came on here tonight).  

[beachtalks]

Ps. My husband also accuses me of using him for money, amongst other accusations (lying, cheating, faking/acting, etc-).  Recently I took it to heart and realized what a gift his financial help is, even though he also spends like mad and doesn't budget (and has put me in the whole).  I am grateful, but probably should show it more.  I need to budget things out on paper for him to see.  Maybe you should too?  Just an idea (a time consuming one I haven't yet done either)... .       Hang in there!

[united for now]

Two questions here

#1) what do you think kept you engaged (participating) in this conflict?

#2) what fears does his belief bring out in you?

[Chosen]

Two questions here

#1) what do you think kept you engaged (participating) in this conflict?

#2) what fears does his belief bring out in you?

1) I don't participate in this type of conflict anymore.  Well, I'm dragged into it but I don't engage in it.  I even tell him I don't seek to change his point of view if this is his belief.  It's just tiring that he bring this money issue ("you never share your money with me while I share everything I have with you" in every conflict he raises... .  and this is just not true.  But I don't argue nor explain, since now I know it's just the way he feels it is.

2) I don’t really feel that it brings up fear in me, for I know what is true and what is not, like I am not using him for money nor am I expecting him to contribute financially.  However, of course it leads to a flicker of doubt in me and sometimes I ask myself if I’m being selfish as he believes I am, or am I just normal.

[yeeter]

A lot of insecurities, which you recognize.   

Just listening to it it seems like validation could be useful.

You never share your money

You will leave me if I dont contribute financially

You should respect and appreciate me more

You are indifferent to me

These are all about his feelings.  For whatever reason, he isnt feeling it and at the overall no doubt isnt feeling loved.

You know it, but :   “Do you REALLY feel I’m this sort of horrible person who’s only with you for material gain?”   Wont really be helpful.  This question is about YOU.  The underlying feelings are about HIM.

It must feel terrible to be living with someone that doesnt respect or appreciate you.  Also, someone that is only interested in you for your financial contribution and is otherwise indifferent.  Dont you think?

[united for now]

Several times I tried to validate his feelings and he would say, “This is not just the way I feel, this is the reality.” Well, true, to him his feelings are reality.

Then I would ask him how I can help him feel less upset now? He would say, “You should respect/appreciate/ whatever me more in future.” I would say, “I will try to do that, so you will feel respected/appreciated/ whatever.” He would say, “You’re a liar, you’re all talk and no action.” Then I would be silent and he would say, “See? Even now you’re indifferent.”   

Something to think about. I may be way off base, in which case just ignore my words and move on. If my words sting a little, then you may wish to spend some time asking yourself why... .  

When i read your words, i get the impression of you chasing after him - for your benefit, trying to get him to to not be mad at you. You are validating to change his emotions cause you don't like how his emotions make you feel. Afraid and insecure and unloved.

Your question on how you could help him was also about you. He was still angry and you were trying to negotiate with him. Again, to stop him from being mad because you didn't feel comfortable with him being mad.

Both of these actions seemed to be more about soothing your own fears and anxiety than about him.

No, you didn't JADE.

And yeah, you tried to validate.

But who was feeling anxious and insecure here?

You - or both of you?

[crazymade]

The money thing--comes up all the time with me and my BPD husband. Here's the deal: we've been living together for four years, and he has worked a total of four months! he drew unemployment for about 9 months while we lived in one state. I worked off and on then. he would always get money from his mom when we needed it. when we had to move to another state two years ago, I have worked almost the whole time, except for five months i drew unemployment. he has my check spent even before I get paid. he knows what we are going to spend the money on. If it's something he wants, there's always money. he will get mad at me for splurging on fast food, my treat to myself for working. We've actually had fights about it. My going out to eat one time a week is breaking us, but not his expenses.  And his mother supplements when necessary.

I know why she's resentful! I definitely am. Why am I always broke when he has a way to have money? And why should she share her money, when she's paying all the bills already? Why is she the selfish one?

Sorry, this is a subject that really hits home with me and is a big source of resentment that i have to work on daily.

[beachtalks]

United for Now,

Can you give an example of how she could have applied JADE in this situation?  I was up all night reading the lessons but somehow missed this one.  Thanks   

I agree with what you are saying about being truly empathetic.  I think in this situation there are many dynamics to think about, and it would be hard to approach just one topic/issue at a time. 

[Rockylove]

the money thing seems to be a control issue.  I get it all the time.  I only stay with him as long as he pays for everything.  Yeah... .  ok.  I'm the only one working.  Yes, he has money in retirement accounts that I don't.  I think that he uses that against me because he knows that it's a sore subject.  It's almost as though he wants me to gripe about him not working... .  but I won't.  He worked way too many hours for way too many years and I don't begrudge him time off now that he's older.  He does understand that, but seems he just has to push that button anyway. 

On the up side... .  he realized (just 2 days ago) that I'm in a position of financial stability and I don't NEED his money... .  I'm here because I love him and I want to be with him.  He's changed his tune and I didn't have to say a thing

[united for now]

Beach

She did a good thing in "not" JADE'ing  

JADE

~Justify

~Attack

~Defend

~Explain

we don't want to JADE, since it makes things worse. It is a form of invalidation. The workshops on invalidation can help with this concept.

[Chosen]

UFN,

You're right- what he said didn't make me feel good, and of course I don't want to feel like such a useless wife, who can't even help her husband feel loved!  So yes, it triggers my own sense of self too.  But I know it's pointless to address it to him and I tried my best to make HIM the centre of that conversation instead of "so now you're saying I'm bad"?

But while I know (logically speaking) that it's about him, not me, so I don't outright try to change his emotions, (I've actually asked him before, "What can I do to help you feel loved?" - not that he gave any answer to that), I don't know how to say it out in the way he could feel it.

Do you have any suggestions as to what I could've said to help him?  Cos this happens quite often, I'm sure it will be quite useful next time... .  

[beachtalks]

I would recommend you just try listening and meeting the spoken needs: you say he wants to be appreciated for his financial contributions, that he wants you to share everything with him like he does you, and he wants to be respected... .    How can you express these things he has asked for?

     Here are some ideas, which you may already do:

     You can brag about him to your friends/family.  You can start putting things in both of your names, legally, and maybe consider having him participate in the bills and budgeting.  Doing this has been scary for me, but I just started to share all with my BPDh because I finally realized that A. he shares all with me and B. he has been fully invested, and believes this is how marriages should be--with trust--and I finally decided to jump on board.  The result of my efforts have actually caused me to fall in even deeper love with him.  Doing things for him, finding ways to become closer... .  it is like love serum.  The more I invest, the more I feel.  He sees I am making attempts to please him on his terms and he is really touched by it.

     You can also start making more decisions together, consulting him before you make purchases, and planning together.  It will probably mean a lot to him and make him realize his importance more-so.

     I think actions speak louder than words when it comes to love, unless, of course, someone is writing brilliant poetry 

[Chosen]

Thanks beachtalks for your suggestions.  He has mentioned before that I don't discuss things with him, so now I've made an effort to discuss things with him before going ahead... .  of course, I don't expect him to appreciate (which he hasn't so far, he probably hasn't even noticed... .  he just kind of thinks that's the way it should have been anyway).

But financially speaking, it is difficult to "share" as we have very different concepts- while I agree with sharing (joint accounts, paying for each other's stuff etc.), he has on several occasions believe that I should transfer a major part of my savings to him (to his own bank account, not a joint one) because he's better with managing money (like he would be better at investing, etc).  This is my boundary and I do not believe in this.  I don't even believe this is benefitial.  However, he doesn't want to hear about this whole joint account thing and uses this often to tell me how selfish I am- my money is my money, while his is mine (even though I would never ask him to deposit money into my account, even if I were better at investments). 

[crazymade]

they've given some good suggestions i may try. i feel i may have came off a bit nasty yesterday, but like i said, money is something my BPD SO fight about all the time. I feel I make enough to pay all the bills and maybe have a little bit left over, but he always finds a way to spend it. He's not working, hasn't worked in two years. stays home, drinks beer, and plays video games all day. doesn't drive, due to the drinking, doesn't cook, and now he won't clean since we (I) got a cat. says the cat is dirty and it's mine so i should do the majority of the cleaning up. last night, after i got home from work, i had to go grocery shopping, came home and ate, smoked a couple of cigarettes, cleaned the bathroom and the litter, and then did the dishes. he did dust yesterday though.

I understand where Chosen is coming from. What's his is his, and what's mine is his. There is no balance. And when we fight, and he tells me to leave, everything is his, even if I was there and bought it. Or the cell phone he spent money on without asking me, and he was worried I'd be mad about it. last time we fought, he said his mother bought that for us. I reminded him about him worrying that i'd be mad when we bought it, he worried about a fight over it. He got quiet then and didn't say a word. The lease is in my name, even though he lies and tries to tell me it's not. When I called him on the lie he got angry and reminded me that even if i have this, i wouldn't keep it because he has the car and i need the car to go to work. Well, he wrecked my car two years ago (he was drunk and interfered with my driving by grabbing the wheel). Granted he got a settlement from the accident and used it to buy another car (since my insurance didn't cover it), that he put in my name. I feel it's my car. But, he feels it's HIS car. Everything is his, and he gets very defensive about it. he says i'm bad with money, yet he is the one who has my check spent before I even get it. I had a house I paid for and paid bills for 8 years before I got back together with him.

I make $1600 a month, $700/month rent, utilities included. That leaves $900 a month, $225 a week, and yet we are always broke, and he borrows money from his mom. We don't buy anything fancy. I buy Dollar General generics for personal care and the dollar store. We smoke cigarettes, but we buy tobacco and roll, which is much cheaper, about $20 a week. yes, i do get 2 or 3 packs of my own cigarettes, which I love to have, and the rest of my check is spent on gas, groceries and him (mostly beer and whatever HE wants). There's nothing left. where does it ALL go? And i'm really frustrated!

How then, do we deal with these situations? When we love them so much, but they take EVERYTHING from us?  My feeling is he does this so I don't have the means to be financially stable and leave him. Not that I would, but this absolutely guarantees that I can't.

[yeeter]

How then, do we deal with these situations? When we love them so much, but they take EVERYTHING from us? 

I will take a shot at this and preface it by saying I also fail to implement, but:

They only take as much from us, as we allow them to.

(again, I fail at putting down the boundaries I 'want'... .  .but at the same time know therein lies the answer)

[elemental]

I don't know if very many of you read my recent threads, but this issue came up with my BPD and it wasn't even real money, but funds in an online game. And he said he made his choice nearly 4 years ago in our relationship that he was not committing long term because I had hysterics for 2-3 days over him spending just a tiny bit of it.

Well, it wasn't a tiny bit, it was a 15  minute conversation asking him to be more careful with accounting. And I had the chat logs on MSN to prove it.


The point was, with him, at least, is that the emotional impact of what I now realize was his feeling shamed and triggering over issues from his past, in reaction to my request to manage the money better... .  was he built up this big ugly construct with me demonized... .  in order to support the emotional blow he felt. And he was unable to face his feelings.

As a result, he has held this against me for years and he claims this grudge has influenced his perception of my value to him. So he has treated me carelessly, therebye compounding our troubles in ways that have really devastated my life. In my confusion and desperation to prove myself worthy again, I allowed it.

Now I know better, so i respond differently.

Anyway, I wonder what all of you can do to engage your non working partners back into contributing. From what I can see, all of them are fussing basically because of the shame they feel for taking advantage of you and are PROJECTING.

Don't let yourself be taken advantage of, first you deserve not to be and secondly it is feeding into their shame and making your relationships worse.

Just my own thoughts.

[TeaAmongRoses]

It's just tiring that he bring this money issue ("you never share your money with me while I share everything I have with you" in every conflict he raises... .  and this is just not true.  But I don't argue nor explain, since now I know it's just the way he feels it is.

Ouch! I feel like I can really relate to your weekend experience and argument.

I feel like I've been in one of those crazy arguments a million times.

Here's what I'm hearing though: it sounds like he's projecting. You pay all the bills yet he accuses you of only wanting him for his money. Um, maybe he only wants you for your money? My xBPDh definitely exploited me financially. Projection is a thing BPDs do. It isn't fun, but when you know about it, it makes a lot more sense.

The trouble is that he did it when you were weak - you were upset because you overslept for work and were stressed. That means that you would have a harder time thinking rationally.

Last night my nonBPDh flared up at me because I contradicted his command to our two year old son to not drink pop. He started catastrophizing that one day he will tell our son he needs to get a job and I'll give him 20 dollars instead. On and on for 30 minutes until he calmed down and I could explain my reasoning for allowing him to have pop. Then he was upset because I always "win" arguments. I said "well, if you would just talk to me, instead of getting so upset and catastrophizing, then it wouldn't become an arugument and there wouldn't be winners and losers".A lightbulb came on that he was contributing to the argument. Usually he just is overcome by emotion and thinks I don't care about him, yada yada.

My point in bringing this up is that I still get into these arguments. However, with a nonBPDh we can resolve it and get to a point where it isn't about just emotions, it is also about the facts. With my exBPDh it never got to talking about reality because it was always just about his feelings and everything that was wrong with me. I like that now in my marriage we can talk things through and deal with reality (eventually).  There may be a lot of emotions in the meantime, which is definitely annoying and time consuming and is becomming intolerable to me to have these big conflicts all the time. However, just being on this board is helping me not to react emotionally when he gets upset. Now I validate him more quickly and then when the air clears, I explain myself. I feel for you, chosen. You have a tough spot here. Tea

[Chosen]

Anyway, I wonder what all of you can do to engage your non working partners back into contributing. From what I can see, all of them are fussing basically because of the shame they feel for taking advantage of you and are PROJECTING.

Don't let yourself be taken advantage of, first you deserve not to be and secondly it is feeding into their shame and making your relationships worse.

Time and time again we see these issues about material possessions and/or money with our pwBPDs raised on here, and there never seems to be a good way of re-engaging them into contributing.  That said, my H does contribute in some bits, but of course I can never make it seem like it's his responsibility.  That also means I cannot completely rely on him to do that share because he can just take it away when he feels like it.

Many members have suggested that the best way is to do what we have to (sadly, many times including shared bills and other things that will affect both of you), but to let the pwBPD’s own responsibility remain their own.  Like my H, he didn’t file his taxes for a whole year, I just let him be, as I won’t be the person paying his tax bill, so if there’s a penalty incurred the burden won’t be on me. 

Of course, that leads to trouble sometimes as pwBPDs are good blamers and sometimes my H would blame me for not doing things for him, even though these things are solely his responsibility and he’s an adult capable of doing things by himself.

[coworkerfriend]

Chosen - Wow - I could relate to this thread on so many levels.  UFN's words ring true to me - I spend too much time and energy trying to get him not to be mad.  I have some fear and anxiety about this relationship  and at times his words play right into those.

The feelings that have been depressing him are money, health and work.  In all those areas, I think things are moving in a positive direction.  I can't make him feel differently about those things.  He has to do that.

I have to let go of his words and moods. 

[beachtalks]

I see.  I really think writing out the budget so both of you can see what is happening.  If you need to keep things separate, I do understand.  So far, my BPDSO doesn't have a debit card.  He would lose it or use it up fast.  He doesn't "save."  But, I can't infantalize him.  That will not work either.  He is going to have to learn to budget and save.  And so am I.  There is no other way around it.  Our relationship needs to be equal, and not caretaker.  I tried being the caretaker role to some extent and I just don't think the dynamics work for a marriage, BPD or not.  When I am in control of all of the finances, he assumes we have more money than we do and gets mad when I deny him.  If we share the responsibility, than the blame no longer falls on me.   

I have made a lot of changes for this relationship, and I need the same out of him.

What do you guys think?

[briefcase]

Then I would ask him how I can help him feel less upset now?  He would say, “You should respect/ appreciate/ whatever me more in future.”  I would say, “I will try to do that, so you will feel respected/ appreciated/ whatever.”  He would say, “You’re a liar, you’re all talk and no action.”  Then I would be silent and he would say, “See?  Even now you’re indifferent.” 

This jumps off the page.  I lived this for many years.  Boy, did I ever try to "fix" my wife's emotions, especially the anger.  And she was happy to play the role of the victim, agreeing that I had control over her emotions and feelings.  No surprise, I wasn't ever quite able to fix her emotions, but it sure wasn't for lack of effort.   

The next time, try to remember that his feelings belong to him.  Stick with validation, and don't try to fix his anger/hurt feelings. 

Him:  You would kick me to the curb if I didn't bring home a paycheck. You don't ever appreciate me for anything else.

You:  I can see you are really upset.

Him: Well, duh!  Of course I am because you only see me as a meal ticket and never do anything nice for me!  I'm just not that kind of person, I always do nice things for you and its hard when that's always a one way street!

You: Well, anyone would feel upset if they felt completely unappreciated.  That has to be hard feeling that way.

Him:  It's not the way I FEEL.  You are doing this to me.

You:  I can tell you are upset.  It must be hard for you to be with me if that's how you feel. 

At some point, you may need to take a time out if the barrage continues.  Let him know that you hear him, but don't try to fix his emotional state, or engage him on the "facts" that he claims are causing his feelings.  Leave that to him.  At some point you can discuss specific issues later when its calm, using SET or DEARMAN as appropriate. 

   

You: I want to make sure you know how much I appreciate you.  You sure seemed upset yesterday when you said I only think of you as a paycheck, it sounded like you were really hurting.  I really do appreciate all that you do, it was sweet of you to make lunch the other day.  Did something happen that made you feel unappreciated?

 


     

[daylily]

Hi Chosen,

I also get accused frequently of being "all talk, no action."  I think maybe there's a grain of truth to that, and I think UFN hit the nail on the head when she said:

When i read your words, i get the impression of you chasing after him - for your benefit, trying to get him to to not be mad at you. You are validating to change his emotions cause you don't like how his emotions make you feel. Afraid and insecure and unloved.

Your question on how you could help him was also about you. He was still angry and you were trying to negotiate with him. Again, to stop him from being mad because you didn't feel comfortable with him being mad.

Both of these actions seemed to be more about soothing your own fears and anxiety than about him.

I think that, in the moment, I feel so insecure and devastated that my H, someone I want to love and appreciate me, thinks that I am a bad person in some respect (for me, the "hot buttons" are "bad wife" and "bad mother", that I say I'll do X, Y or Z to make him feel better, in an attempt to stop MY pain and change his mind about me.  Later, I don't follow through, because things between us have smoothed over somewhat, and, by then, I resent him for the things he does and says that hurt me.  Perhaps empathy is the key, because if I am truly feeling empathy for him, I will say what I mean and follow through, while at the same time knowing that I'm not the bad person he says I am and that this is his illness talking.  But that's hard enough when I'm feeling emotionally strong.  If I'm hormonal, tired, stressed, etc., it's soo hard to feel empathy and to view his comments through the "he's mentally ill" glasses.  I think you just had one of those moments.  You're human, after all!   

  Daylily

[united for now]

Very well said daylilly 

[Chosen]

Thanks so much UFN and daylili!  Yes I had one of those days when I'm really short on patience (actually it has never been my strength, but living with a pwBPD has trained me in this aspect).  I'm glad I'm less in the FOG now, and having lost my temper I don't feel like it's the end of the world (it did, at that moment- but then again, I was not my normal self).

It's the hardest when what they say have some truth in it, and you're right, daylily, sometimes I also sound really sincere in saying something (because I really meant it at that moment) then later on things got better and I don't give 100% in following that through.  It's a good reminder now that you've put it like that (I mean hearing this from a non point of view and not just my H)... .  

That said, it's not all bad, as in the past, my H would be verbally abusive, calling me every bad name under the sun; now he just has very black/white point of views (which are exagerrations of the truths) but he didn't say insulting things to me.  That's certainly an improvement.

[daylily]

It's that kernel of truth that is their deadliest weapon and our Achilles heel!  I've said before that it might be easier to be in a relationship with someone who is less "functional" because I could easily dismiss his accusations as being the rants of a mentally ill person.