Married with kids, an affair, and BPD-like behavior

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

3 years ago i was having an affair. 

I am responsible for that.  I can go into the details if it helps, as they may affect the opinion of people reading this as to whether my wife has BPD at all or is just betrayed and acting as a betrayed person would.  But I will leave it as a simple statement of truth for the moment.

2 years and 7 months ago, she found out about the affair from the husband of the other woman.

Since then, I have been trying to make up for the affair. 

We have gone to 2 counselors together.  I have gone to 2 other counselors.

I believe my wife has BPD.  I think she has always had it but outbursts were largely directed at her ex-husband and toward the kids.  As long as she had an outlet, things were generally ok.

The affair has caused terrible things that happened to her as a child and young adult to resurface.

She became depressed, then abusive, and now i seem to perpetually be in the role of the bad guy with few brief flips back to that of the good guy.

In counseling she expressed intense fear of abandonment based in being molested as a child, literal abandonment by her biological father, rape, a death threat directed toward her by her mother, abandonment by her then ex-husband, and other issues.

At home, she continues to have fits of rage, largely over the affair... .  which is where I am foggy.  I understand why she would have anger toward me.  I do.  I understand why she might never forgive me and possibly even need to end our relationship as husband and wife.  But that is not what she has chosen to do.  Rather, she has become abusive, physically and verbally.  She yells, screams, and cries.  She punches, slaps, and pushes.  She pulls out her own hair, collapses into a heap on the floor and then punches her own chest and thighs.  She has regressed back into an eating disorder she had as a young adult, forcing herself to throw-up.  She has weight control issues and tells me I make her feel worthless.  Her self-esteem is based largely on me.  She has wished for death (not quite the same to me as threatening suicide).  In both cases of counseling, she stopped going when the counselor suggested she needed individual assistance from a counselor and now she tells me it is because I "lied" to th them (I don't think I did... .  though the fog of it all makes it hard for me to tell.


I could go on and on... .  but perhaps that is enough for the moment.  I need help.  Right now I am not in the home.  I am being refused time with my kids.  I know I want to save/fix the relationship but I can't live life as the devil nor can I allow my children to be witness to her abusive behavior any longer.

[thefisherman]

3 years ago i was having an affair. 

I am responsible for that.  I can go into the details if it helps, as they may affect the opinion of people reading this as to whether my wife has BPD at all or is just betrayed and acting as a betrayed person would.  But I will leave it as a simple statement of truth for the moment.

2 years and 7 months ago, she found out about the affair from the husband of the other woman.

Since then, I have been trying to make up for the affair. 

We have gone to 2 counselors together.  I have gone to 2 other counselors.

I believe my wife has BPD.  I think she has always had it but outbursts were largely directed at her ex-husband and toward the kids.  As long as she had an outlet, things were generally ok.

The affair has caused terrible things that happened to her as a child and young adult to resurface.

She became depressed, then abusive, and now i seem to perpetually be in the role of the bad guy with few brief flips back to that of the good guy.

In counseling she expressed intense fear of abandonment based in being molested as a child, literal abandonment by her biological father, rape, a death threat directed toward her by her mother, abandonment by her then ex-husband, and other issues.

At home, she continues to have fits of rage, largely over the affair... .  which is where I am foggy.  I understand why she would have anger toward me.  I do.  I understand why she might never forgive me and possibly even need to end our relationship as husband and wife.  But that is not what she has chosen to do.  Rather, she has become abusive, physically and verbally.  She yells, screams, and cries.  She punches, slaps, and pushes.  She pulls out her own hair, collapses into a heap on the floor and then punches her own chest and thighs.  She has regressed back into an eating disorder she had as a young adult, forcing herself to throw-up.  She has weight control issues and tells me I make her feel worthless.  Her self-esteem is based largely on me.  She has wished for death (not quite the same to me as threatening suicide).  In both cases of counseling, she stopped going when the counselor suggested she needed individual assistance from a counselor and now she tells me it is because I "lied" to th them (I don't think I did... .  though the fog of it all makes it hard for me to tell.


I could go on and on... .  but perhaps that is enough for the moment.  I need help.  Right now I am not in the home.  I am being refused time with my kids.  I know I want to save/fix the relationship but I can't live life as the devil nor can I allow my children to be witness to her abusive behavior any longer.

[Suzn]

Hello thebadguy 

I'm sorry you've going through all of this with your wife.   The behaviors you speak of sound familiar to stories we see here. We can't diagnose your wife but we can offer you some tools to work with to not make things worse.

How long have you been separated? Do you still have your counselor for support?

[DreamGirl]

Hi thebadguy,



I wish your username was different.

I don't know that you're "the bad guy" - even though perhaps you're being made out to be.  

Two and a half years is a long time.  Affairs happen and it is often a coping mechanism in a troubled marriage... .  and your affair did what often happens, it brings the issues in the marriage to the surface.

I'm sorry that your wife is having such a hard time and isn't cooperating with the therapists. It's her own poor coping skills that are now the issue, and you seem dedicated to try and save your marriage.

You've definitely come to the right place to navigate these rough waters - there are so many others who have been in the same place as you and there is a vast amount of knowledge that can help you understand better your wife's behavior along with tools that perhaps can help you alleviate some of the conflict.

How old are the kiddos?

Welcome to our family.  

~DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

How long have you been separated? Do you still have your counselor for support?

In mid-november, I had been sleeping downstairs.  She woke me up crying at about 5am telling me she couldn't do it anymore.  She needed me out.  She refused to provide any kind of written custody schedule so I refused to move out (this has been a recurring issue... .  she wants me out and for me to effectively give up the kids while continuing to pay the mortgage and bills).  That night, she was 'surprised' i came home.  She went into a fit of rage - screaming, cursing, spitting at me telling me to get out.  I was firm, calm, and rational.  She flipped it.  She decided she leave and take the kids.  For the moment, I let that happen.  She slapped me across the face somewhere in the middle of packing.  They all went to her parents' (kids are 2.5, 5, 10, and 13... .  13yo is from her previous marraige). 


The next morning, she returned to collect more things and to ask me again to leave.  She said 'if there is any hope for our marriage it needs to begin with you showing some compassion by allowing the kids to be at their home'.  Of course... .  I had been telling her and them the entire time that they are all welcome in our family home at all times (I was hoping for the same curtesy).  I eventually caved.

I stayed with her parents' from mid-November through mid-December.

Then, the flu hit our house.  I returned to the house to take care of my wife and the kids as they all got sick one by one.  I never got it.  I stayed through the holidays.  Things were good.  We were in the same bed again from Mid-december through the end of the year until a friend of mine died.  The funeral was 300 miles away on new year's eve.  I asked her to come.  Her response was that the kids had too much going on.  She felt I needed to go but was at best uneasy about me traveling by myself... .  fearful that it could be a chance to be unfaithful.  I agreed to be accountable and to have one of my other friends vouch for my whereabouts.  He did, but only after the fact.  It was not how she wanted it and even though I was in constant communication, she flipped back to me being the devil.

After she had another temper tantrum  New Year's eve evening (after I drove back from the funeral 3.5 hours away), I am back at her parents' house and have been refused visitation with the kids since.

I have only seen my counselor once since the separation began.  He suggested an ultimatum.  She participate in counseling OR Mediation OR I file for divorce.  She has refused the first two and I have not been willing to execute on the 3rd... .  so I have not followed his advice.  I am not ready/willing to.

[thefisherman]

I am reading how to stop making things worse.

I feel like I am already in control of my reactions.

Here are some examples of where I run into issues.  Any suggestions for changing my behavior would be appreciated:

- If I am sympathetic to her feelings of being mistreated, I am told "you don't feel that way".  She fills in what she thinks my emotions are.  "you hate me"  "you don't find me attractive" "you see no worth in me" (these are things she has said to me). 

My reaction to those statements are things like "I love you" "I think your are beautiful" "I see a lot of value/worth in you and who you are".  Or... .  as an alternative, I say "I am sorry you feel that way.  Those are not my feelings."

I am then told I am being defensive and combative.

It seems like, if I am sympathetic, empathetic, and patient... .  the belittleing, beratement, and projecting never end.  I can listen, sympathize and validate for HOURS... .  or at least try to... .  I have not expereinced a defusion of her upset feelings, only an eventual tantrum, dropped call, slammed door, or physical attack.

What am I doing wrong?

[DreamGirl]

That's a good place to start!

We can only control our part and you're in the right mindset. It's hard to not feel defensive in this - and I think that you are really trying to grasp a better understanding in how these relationships work - and what will and will not work.  

I think that a good place to post these questions is on our Staying Board

And another important must-read: Lessons

What does your own therapist say in regards to the physical part of the conflict - including the threats?

~DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

That's a good place to start!

We can only control our part and you're in the right mindset. It's hard to not feel defensive in this - and I think that you are really trying to grasp a better understanding in how these relationships work - and what will and will not work.  

I know I can only control my part.  I just don't know how to deal with the rest.  I get told I am cold and uncaring when I respond in an even tone to explosions and name calling.  Nothing seems to work consistently.

What does your own therapist say in regards to the physical part of the conflict - including the threats?

~DreamGirl

Multiple therapists have recommended filing police reports when she gets physical.  I am afraid she will try to flip it and say I did something (I do not get physical).  I came close once to filing an order of protection and now she resents that.  I don't know if I am too ashamed or afraid of the possible outcome but I know my threat to call the police is empty.  I have even told her I would need to call an ambulance if she did not stop hurting herself.  I am making empty threats.  I never thought our relationship would be like this and I just know she will hold any real action like that against me and probably consider it the ultimate betrayal.

[thefisherman]

I guess I am hoping someone here can either say "dude... .  she doesn't have BPD" or "that all sounds consistent with BPD". 

This has all just been... .  the most difficult and painful experience of my life.  It only promises to get worse.

[DreamGirl]

 

It is hard and I'm so sorry for where you're at.

I wish that we could diagnose it for you, but we can't - we're just not properly equipped. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so she could have traits but not necessarily be disordered, but needless to say there is definitely some dysfunction going on in your marriage/her.

What did your marriage counselor(s) think?

There are problems definitely apparent here, tbg, and I think it's outside what are average issues in a marriage. You are also experiencing what a lot of us do when facing the breakdown of a marriage. Fear... .  guilt... .  and confliction.

You say you want to salvage the relationship.

I respect that. Marriage is a commitment. What is it that makes you want to do that?

~DG

[thefisherman]

Marriage counselors... .  

#1 asked her to go on anti-depressant medication. 

#2 said she was BPD (after couples sessions and individual counseling)  he referred her to an experienced BPD counselor who was a woman.  Wife refused, said he betrayed her and even though he knew she had abandonment issues, he was trying to abandon her.  (he never used the phrase boarderline or BPD with her... .  only in conversations with me).

Why stay... .  

I know people say 'don't stay for the kids'.  I have 3 amazing kids.  They are absolutely amazing, beautiful, joyful.  I need to be in their lives.  I want them at the center of my life.

She has been the love of my life.  I met her in college 20 years ago.  I loved her the moment I saw her.  She left... .  I still loved her.  she got married, i loved her.  She got divorced, I moved to be with her.

I have lost some/much of that undying enthusiasm over 11 years of marriage.  I know the core is still there.  I think it can be revived.  I definitely owe her my best effort... .  the insanity of the last few years has made giving my best effort extremely difficult and frankly... .  I am confused as to whether I am giving the best I have to give.  The one and only book I have read though all this is 'emotional blackmail... .  when the people in your lives use fear obligation and guilt to manipulate you'.  I feel manipulated.   Sigh... .  I need some real clarity and truth.

[DreamGirl]

Surviving infidelity is hard for couples. I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone who doesn't regulate emotions very well - which it sounds like your wife doesn't.

She's hurt, angry, and taking it out on everyone around her. That's hard on you and hard on the children.

tbg, it's so difficult to be in the spot where you are. You want it to work, but this current state you are in is not working. You can't be married, live at her parents house, and not see your kids.

What are her thoughts about divorce? Have you discussed it?

I know that there is a lot of emotion going on with this - it is 2 1/2 years later since your affair with little progress. Sometimes there needs to be an acceptance that she just doesn't have what it takes to move past it.

Do you think she can?

I know exactly what you're going thru and I know just how difficult this is. 

How are doing today?

[livednlearned]

Multiple therapists have recommended filing police reports when she gets physical.  I am afraid she will try to flip it and say I did something (I do not get physical).  I came close once to filing an order of protection and now she resents that.  I don't know if I am too ashamed or afraid of the possible outcome but I know my threat to call the police is empty.  I have even told her I would need to call an ambulance if she did not stop hurting herself.  I am making empty threats.  I never thought our relationship would be like this and I just know she will hold any real action like that against me and probably consider it the ultimate betrayal.

Hi tbg, (I doubt you really are a bad guy, btw  )

No one can tell you what the best thing is for your situation, just like no one here can confirm that she is BPD. Having said that, you mention that a therapist has diagnosed her. Is there some particular reason you don't think she is BPD? Or some reason you want to believe she is not BPD?

When your wife gets physical, you are both playing with fire. I respect your willingness to stay and work on your marriage, as challenging as it may be. But if you are worried that she might flip the physical violence and accuse you of being the perpetrator, listen to that concern and think through how to protect yourself. There are more ways to do that than just protection orders. Over on the Family Law boards, false allegations of domestic violence are common, and have devastated some members. The consequences can be long-term and expensive and deeply humiliating. One way to protect yourself is to document everything. Journal what happens -- it can make all the difference if you are falsely accused. Some members recommend recording the rages, although I did that with my N/BPDxh and it was terrifying. It sounds like you might feel more safe if you stick to a journal (also, every state treats recording w/o consent different, so you need to look into whether it's ok to do it where you live).

I'm glad you found these boards. I came here feeling as muddled and unclear as you, and with support from friends here, was able to get some real clarity and truth. My situation is somewhat different, but the core experience of coping with BPD is the same, and it can help so much to learn and share with others who have walked this path.

[thefisherman]

tbg, it's so difficult to be in the spot where you are. You want it to work, but this current state you are in is not working. You can't be married, live at her parents house, and not see your kids.

Some people have suggested I move back in.  I know doing that without 'earning' my way back in will immediately shift to a rage event.  At the same time, earning it seems so unclear.  She has been consistent in what she says she wants and also consistent in telling me I am not doing those things (many of which I am doing).  I am thinking me moving back in w/o consent will be the beginning of the end and so I am fearful of finally taking that step.

What are her thoughts about divorce? Have you discussed it?

Aaah yes.  we have discussed.  She feels like no matter what she loses.  She stays with me and accepts me?  She feels rejected and pushed down all the time.  Her common phrase is that I 'push her face in poo' every day I don't fill her head with 'kind words'.  If she divorces me?  She has to share her kids with me.  Which... .  she has been working hard at alienating me from them for quite some time.  For HER the goldilocks position is me living somewhere else, handing her my pay check, and not separating her from the kids for any period of time.

I know that there is a lot of emotion going on with this - it is 2 1/2 years later since your affair with little progress. Sometimes there needs to be an acceptance that she just doesn't have what it takes to move past it.

Do you think she can?

I am not sure.  In some ways, this calls out why i am not 100% sure of the BPD diagnosis.  Is she manipulating me?  YES.  Is she doing it largely by using the kids and raging against me?  YES.  Is she abusive?  YES.  She fears abandonment and views me as all bad much of the time.  Have I met or exceeded what should be expected of someone who has done what I have done?  My own coping mechanisms drive me away from doing what she says she needs.  So I tend to think I have NOT done enough (but I push myself to do exactly what she says she need).  But then, the things she says that are clearly intended to manipulate me make me think that too... .  so what is reality?  When she is quiet... .  man... .  I just want things to stay quiet.  So I stay quiet.  I recognize my behavior triggers and feeds hers but I have really struggled with changing myself. 

And somewhere in what she says, I hear her saying she wants her white knight back (me).  And yet, I can not deliver that because I am... .  the bad guy now.

Obviously she see's herself as the victim here.  I don't know if she will ever perceive a change in status.

How are doing today?

Ill-equipped.  I'm not ready for divorce.  I'm not ready to fix it.  I'm not ready to even stop the bleeding.  All I feel ready to do is minimize contact with her because that is the only thing that stops the nastiness.

[thefisherman]

I recognize my behavior triggers and feeds hers but I have really struggled with changing myself. 

When I say this... .  I mean I withdraw from the situation when she rages.  And when she is quiet, I only return slowly.  THAT is what I have strugged with changing about me.  And well... .  I guess my feelings toward her are broken enough right now that I have been struggling to give her the kind words she desires.

[DreamGirl]

I'm not ready for divorce.  I'm not ready to fix it.  I'm not ready to even stop the bleeding.  All I feel ready to do is minimize contact with her because that is the only thing that stops the nastiness.

From this link on our Undecided Board: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/00.htm

Not making a decision is a decision in and of itself. And the longer you wait, often, the worse it becomes.

Why should I chose?

A fire breaks out in your home. You stand before the flames.

“Should I get the fire extinguisher and fight it? Should I grab my photo album and run?”

You stand there - you can't decide. Not making a decision is a decision in and of itself.

OK. It's a very significant decision ~ Do I try to work with my SO and try to rebuild the relationship? Do I move on and make a new life for myself?

The longer you wait - often - the worse it gets. Why? Because most likely your relationship is eroding - and who knows what that may bring. And most likely your psyche is eroding - you feel broken, hurt, trapped.

This guide is designed to help you sort it out. This may take time - and you don't want to rushed - and don't want to prolong it. It's wise to set a time table for yourself.

This isn't easy. Many of us are suffering from some level of depression that arises from long term relationship stress. This is not the blues (that's more of an anxiety), but the emotional weight that affects our ability to see things and think clearly. A person with depression tend to see things worse than they really are.

Our goal is to provide you with the tools and knowledge to begin to make positive changes in your life.  


I feel like you need to get in the right head space. Any chance to talk to a therapist? Perhaps an attorney - or two - just to see where you are at?

No concrete decisions - just some information to help in making a decision.

Your wife wants you to completely sacrifice just about everything (living in your home, your money, your parenting, your privacy) and still, is really angry with you. I don't know that you can keep trying to help her feel better... .  you're running out of things to give her.  

I'm not telling you to leave your wife; I'm not telling you stay - only you can do that. I think that making any decision includes weighing all your options. It also means making sure that you are balanced (both logically and emotionally) when making those decisions - so you are able to move forward.

Time lines really, really helped me in my own situation.

I also encourage to explore the boards (not just this one). The Staying Board has really, really good communication tools, skills on establishing boundaries, and ways to defuse the conflict.

We're all here for you.  

[livednlearned]

Can you forgive yourself for the affair?

It seems like you may need to heal that for yourself first, or separately, so that you can make a clear decision about what's best for you.

I trend toward feeling guilt, even when I don't do something wrong. It seems to be a common trait among people here. As a general rule, nons feel a lot of fear, obligation, and guilt. About everything! Even things not in our control. In your case, you feel guilty about something you did have control over, and it seems like you're allowing that to justify whether or not your wife is accurately diagnosed BPD. Can you see how those things are actually separate? You did something real, AND your wife is BPD. I am guessing you could work with a therapist to discover that many BPD traits and behaviors were there before the affair, and have since escalated and become untenable.

But for what it's worth, there are many people here who have been accused of all kinds of things. The false allegations are breathtaking. And the behavior you describe is similar to the behavior others describe. Perhaps your task is to forgive yourself for the affair so you can see clearly that you are not responsible for her behavior, nor do you deserve to be treated like this.

I am also wondering if you think that you deserve to be punished for having an affair? That's something else a therapist can help you with. Maybe a similar pattern occurred in your family of origin? My therapist used to tell me that I preferred the feeling of being in control about the bad things because the alternative -- having no control -- was too frightening. I thought it was a lot of hooey when she first said that, but I've come to see how true it is.

Forgive yourself for the affair.

[thefisherman]

My family of origin had some similar features but none of the BPD (dad had affairs).  My mom however was a saint and managed to keep me oblivious to it through to the day she died. 

The family of origin discussion happened with both of us with the last therapist we saw together.  That was a good chunk of his approach.  Honestly, it all lined up nicely out of just that discussion.  I come from a rural family who doesn't talk.  She comes from a city family that screamed a lot and she had all manner of trauma as a kid and young adult.  Both fathers' had affairs.  Moms' handled them very differently.  Her parents stayed together, but based largely on her mother holding her hostage with a knife and threatening her adopted dad that if he left, she would die.  My mom quietly asked my dad to leave.  He did.  They didn't divorce initially.  Instead, they reconciled about 5 years later and then finally divorced about 10 years after that (total of 15 years since the initial 'get out' and by that time I was 26).

Can I forgive myself for the affair.  That is a complicated answer.  I think I initially felt guilty for it, was remorseful, beat myself up, but then as time passed and her behavior escalated more and more frequently,  I think the guilt subsided and turned into resentment.  I believe she feels I need to be punished and I have definitely facilitated that to a large extent in my efforts to get past it with her.  That seems to be something she does with me and with her oldest daughter in particular. 

I watch the daughter react to being berated and her reaction is a lot like mine.  Anger wrapped in remorse.  Does that make sense?  Anger for being treated like that by someone we love.  Remorse more for being punished than for the offense.  In a 13 y/o, it is not very believable.  But what my BPDso wants, is to see or hear emotional pain in they eyes or voice of the person who 'wronged' her.  I realie I am assigning motives.  That is what I perceive.  What does the 13 year old get punished like that for?  One major recurring theme is having a relationship with her father (i am not father in this case).

[livednlearned]

That's a pretty fascinating family of origin match-up! One of the best moments I had in therapy was when my T said I was changing my family script. It's hard to see how we hold ourselves hostage. So much easier to focus on our abusers.

So... .  knowing what you know about the parallels in your FOOs, does that make you think differently about your options?

[thefisherman]

I feel like you need to get in the right head space. Any chance to talk to a therapist? Perhaps an attorney - or two - just to see where you are at?

I have seen 4 therapists.  I still have one I go back to on occasion.  I saw a lawyer once.  He recommended a restraining order.  I didn't file it.  That turned into a fiasco.  but yes... .  i need legal advice from a legitimate resource.

Your wife wants you to completely sacrifice just about everything (living in your home, your money, your parenting, your privacy) and still, is really angry with you. I don't know that you can keep trying to help her feel better... .  you're running out of things to give her.

Yes.  That is how it feels.  Problem is, I have failed (or feel like I have failed) at giving her what she has asked for.  I seem to regularly blame her for this (at least in my own head if not out loud).  She is abusive.  She wants kind words.  I have been having quite a bit of difficulty producing kind words for the woman who is abusive.  Maybe it is a circle.  We occasionally break out of it a little but I fear I am damaged now and can't do what she ultimately wants.

Time lines really, really helped me in my own situation.

Timelines are great for people willing to do what must be done at the deadline.  For as long as I feel like it is my fault that we haven't gotten out of the hole, I may very well not feel like I should pull the trigger so to speak.

[livednlearned]

Time lines really, really helped me in my own situation.

Timelines are great for people willing to do what must be done at the deadline.  For as long as I feel like it is my fault that we haven't gotten out of the hole, I may very well not feel like I should pull the trigger so to speak.

You can also look at it like making a plan with contingencies. One of the things that happens in BPD r/s is that you get sucked into chaotic, whirling vortices that make it hard to function. You have options. For example, you can move back. You can stay where you are and stay married. You can stay where you are and get divorced. You can move elsewhere and get divorced. You can get an attorney and make a plan in case xyz happens. Every one of those has a plan that goes with it, and contingencies. If you set up a timeline that only makes you feel weak, like you failed at yet something else, then create contingencies that allow you to branch.

"If my ex is still doing xyz behavior by Month Year, I will try x."

"If my youngest child does not improve xyz behavior, I will seek therapy for him. If my ex does not support my decision, I will try xyz."

Something like that.

[thefisherman]

I am sure I have made it clear somewhere else in this thread, but I will say it again.  I am currently out of the house at my BPDso's request (very loud, very hysterical, very frightening request) staying at her parents' house. 

I have been calling to speak with the kids every night that I don't see them.  She did finally let me come over to see them (and her) night before last. 

Last night, I called, the oldest answered.  I spoke to her.  Middle child had fallen asleep.  Littlest (2 1/2) said he didn't want to talk on the phone.  Ok.  So I said good bye to the oldest and that was it.  I didn't speak to or ask to speak with my wife.

A couple hours later I got a text asking what I had done that day that would be considered work on our relationship.

I replied saying I have been reading about and working on ways to change how I communicate so I can stop making things worse, as I think that is the place to start.

She replied (another hour later) saying it does not make things better to just ignore her either.  This message was late enough that I didn't see it until this morning.  At which time I tried to use S.E.T.  I think I may have left off the "T" part.

My reply was that I would be more attentive.  Being ignored doesn't feel good.  and I said i was sorry.  There has been no response.  Would there have been a more complete message than the one I gave?

This is a long way and a lot of detail on a tiny exchange to get to an issue I have been struggling with. 

I am presently gun-shy.  I have a lot of trouble engaging unless she gives me some signal that our conversation isn't going to turn into a yelling, name calling, blameing recycled rant. 

I can have empty or business conversations with her easily but she calls this out and gets upset.  (definition of 'empty' or 'business' conversations - empty: "i can't believe they are putting up a new strip mall there.  This area is so over-developed."  business: "I paid that bill... .  or... .  I see there are these kids' events on these days... .  can I help make things easier for you with those?... .  or... .  i was going to go get what I need to finish this project.  Do you need anything?  Are there things higher on your priority list than that project?"

So... .  how do *I* engage first w/o triggering her?  I am frankly afraid to start a conversation about anything without first knowing she is not in a negative space in her own head... .  which she is quite often lately.

What are safe topics that are meaningful?  As a man... .  I have to say, talking on the phone for enjoyment is not really in my repertoire and since comfortable silence does not exist in our relationship at this point... .  what do I do?

[DreamGirl]

So the key in this is that it's not about trying to control yourself in order to control her.

It's where the whole "Walking on Eggshells" analogy comes from - "If I tip-toe around her, she'll not freak out".  It's no way to live and it's OK if she freaks out - it's about not escalating the situation - and there's tools in setting limits so that you can leave/take a time out if she does in fact freak out.

I think that you're doing the right thing. By using SET, you're stopping the cycle of conflict, not necessarily fixing all the problems in your marriage.

For what it's worth, I think what your'e doing is starting to work.  

For a pwBPD, they're feelings become they're facts. So when she feels you are ignoring her = you are ignoring her.

I think you did well in your reply - no answer is better then the one that tells you that you're a heartless jerk, right? You validated her rather then invalidating her by saying "I don't ignore you" and then point all the times you didn't. A pwBPD tends to live in the feeling of the moment right now, so she might have felt that you ignored her when you called and didn't talk to her and just the kiddos.  :)id you ignore her?  Not really... .  but you're sorry that she felt that way, you don't like to be ignored either.

I think that it's also learning to detach from outcomes. If you want to talk to your wife when you call, that's OK.  If she's not in the mood or wants to pick a fight? Then you can deal with that - or maybe discuss (while she's calm) that you want to perhaps try friendly chat before you go to bed, that way you both don't have to think about a loaded discussion and not sleep because of it.

This initial process might have you doing a lot of validating (rather then defending) simply to just stop the constant arguing. We argue because we want to be heard - and we want to be right. That's what validation is about - saying "you have every right to feel the way you do".

Because she does in fact have every right to her feelings - even when it doesn't always make a whole lot of sense to us.

In all this spare time of yours, do you have access to a library or book store? You might see if you can find a copy of:

Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder

[It's Kreger's follow up book to Stop Walking on Eggshells - and much better.]

I know this is hard, tbg, and you do seem better today. Any chance that you can get in to see your therapist? It's OK to go against his advice when he's telling you that you should make an ultimatum. He won't be disappointed in you and will support you wherever you're at in whatever direction you want to go. Part of this is getting into a healthy state of mind to make good, balanced decisions. No one better then a skilled professional to help guide you in that.

When I was muddling thru marriage counseling, I flip-flopped about 27 times on whether or not I was comitted to making it work. I had an individual counselor as well who was there to help me in my own mental health. I even saw my GP to make sure my physical health was OK as well. To me, it was like surgery - having a team of Dr's attending to each different need.

You don't have to be alone in this. I promise.

 

~DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

I get the response that I am the heartless jerk often enough including this evening.

This time because I did not announce loudly enough that a phone call was my sister.  The incident by itself sounds crazy.  it is the context of the last 3 years that makes it less crazy.  i am struggling with that.  I don't know if that is too much for her to ask for or within reason.  It is what she says she needs so I guess I need to decide whether I am willing and able to provide that level of 'transparency' or not. 

I feel a bit like a yo-yo.

I did her a favor by taking off work this afternoon to either care for a sick kid or take four 5 y/o's on a field trip.  It wasn't decided until I got there.  When I got there, it was evident she wanted me to go on the field trip and I did.  I had no awareness of the need until 7am today and I still made it happen.  When it was done, i said thank you and I appreciated being asked.  Positive reinforcement for doing her a favor.  (I never said i was doing her a favor)

She flips it and says I wasn't doing her any favors.  I was being selfish.  And not only does she say I was not doing her any favors but I wasn't even doing it for the 5 year old.  She tells me I was doing it for me so I could look like a good dad.

I let that all roll off me in the moment.  I was supportive and empathetic to the best of my ability.  I can't say it went all that well.  she tells me it seems quite forced.  And it is but I stuck to it.

Somewhere between being screamed at, having my stuff thrown out of the house into the snow and being told to leave my wife and kids and go to my in-laws' house on new year's eve after returning from a funeral 300 miles away and being refused access to my kids for the following week, I am supposed to give her kind words, be beyond transparent, and make her feel chosen and I am supposed to figure out the difference between giving her space (she asked for me to sleep elsewhere) and ignoring her. 

But not only do I have to be transparent but I have to volunteer all of the desired information without being asked questions.  Because if I am answering questions, I may be lying but if I say it without being asked, I am telling the truth (her words).  She won't ask who called.  She won't ask what the conversation was about.  And I am supposed to announce it repeatedly in case she didn't hear it the first time.

I am frustrated and back back my in-laws.

As a parting shot, the 5 year old I took on the field trip says "mom hates you dad" when i am trying to give him a hug to leave.

I am mostly just ranting.   Someone can tell me to suck it up now.

[thefisherman]

Feeling a bit bonkers this evening.    I have been out and then in and now out of the house at the request of my wife for the last nearly two months.  4 weeks out, 2+ weeks in, and now 11 days out again.

The reason given is that I make her feel worthless.

This takes me away from my kids (and my wife) and my home.

I don't think she is going to file for divorce anytime soon.  She probably won't period, if I stay out of the house.  This is working wonderfully for her.  It does not work for me for many reasons that would probably be obvious to anyone with kids.

I am contemplating going back to stay.

I think that could trigger a lot of things.  Rage.  Physical attack.  Most likely is her leaving and taking the kids.  Effectively swapping places.  If she has done any 'prep work'.  She could immediately file for divorce.

That is my biggest fear right now.  Now so much getting divorced but having the 'status quo' be her with the kids and me not. 

I think my counselor would tell me to move back in.  I am trying to figure out if I am under/over thinking this.  Help?

[thefisherman]

Now so much getting divorced but having the 'status quo' be her with the kids and me not. 

Apparently cant type... .  that should say "not so much getting divorced but having the 'status quo' be:

her with the kids.

me without."

[Take2]

Maybe I missed something in the prior messages, but I wanted to respond but I need to go give my own almost-5-year old a bath - but your therapist would tell you to move back IN?   What you are going through sounds gut wrenching.  I am so sorry to read about the contact (and lack thereof) you have with your kids right now... .  and of course you know that a 5 year old will say things without thought to what it really means to an adult... .   

If you are living with her parents, they are obviously supportive of you - do they know or understand what is going on with your wife?  (again I apologize if you have addressed this and I didn't get that far).  Do you have other support - friends?  your family? 

I know how badly you need to be with your kids.  I wish I had better advise on how to handle things - but honestly it sounds like you ARE doing the best you can possibly do in this situation.  I hope you can find peace, at least tonight, to be able to relax and give yourself a break... .     

I will read your background in the morning.  I wish you well... .  

[thefisherman]

who's ready for the longest background post ever?

The most critical background... .  well there is a lot and I know I have not covered all of it in any thread here.

The short version:

What I have done wrong:

3 years ago I had an affair.  She found out 2yrs 8 mos ago.

I did this.  It was an awful thing to do. 

I would understand if she needed to divorce me over it.  She has not wanted to do that.

I believe she had BPD before the affair. 

At the beginning of our marriage, she mostly painted her ex-husband and his new wife as the bad guys.

It began with saying that her then 4yo daughter from that marriage was being sexually assaulted by his new wife's 5yo girl.  Did it happen?  I don't know.  What I do know, is that before the new wife, he had not been enforcing his visitation b/c of how the relationship with my wife and his daughter had been going.  His new wife 'encouraged' him to keep her overnight and 'take' what was rightly his per the parenting plan.  The two of them have had a high conflict relationship for as long as I have known about it.  We are now 11+ years removed and their relationship is still high conflict. 

All the while, her anger/hurt would periodically be pointed at me for doing nothing of consequence, but I am a good fisherman.  Any time the witch came out, I was exactly who she was looking for.

Things got worse and worse as years passed.  She started taking it out on her daughter too.  We had kids.  She would get angry with the oldest (the child from her first marriage).  I would protect ours.  One night, her ex calls and says she needs to stop abusing their daughter.  Gave examples of things she had told him.  They sounded plausible to me.  She denied.

I had the affair.  She found out.  She was righteously angry with me but said she wanted to work it out.  We started in counseling.  My wife set it up.

She got angry every time we went.  I started dreading the car rides there.

After 5-6 times, the counselor suggests she go on anti-depressants.  She interpreted this as the counselor telling her SHE had done something wrong.  She exploded in the session and ran out.  That was the end of that counselor (my wife would not go back).  I went a few more times by myself, then stopped b/c my wife "didn't want me telling lies to another woman" (the counselor).

Time passes, she doesn't get less angry she gets more angry.  She starts withholding children.  Being verbally abusive.  Name calling.  Breaking things.  Hurting herself.  Left bruises on her chest and thighs on multiple occasions.  Ripped out chunks of her own hair.   Somewhere in here, she throws a candle jar into the wall, destroys a metal trash can.

She had been yelling and screaming in front of the kids but she decided to bring the conflict out in the open after about 5 months.  She throws our wedding portrait out a 2nd story window in front of the kids.  They run out in the snow to retrieve it.  My oldest hides it in her room.  She breaks pictures in frames, rips apart kids stuffed animals I had given her that she had since given to the kids, rips apart our marriage certificate and ‘frames’ a picture of the other woman that she had printed from the internet and waits for me to come home, then burns it in our kitchen.

I tell her I am going to start seeing a counselor again.  I start looking, find a woman who is qualified.  She flips.  Doesn’t want me seeing a female counselor.  I find a man.  He won’t see couples.  This is fine by me but my wife doesn’t want me seeing someone and “twisting him with my side of the story”.   I see him once, about 45 minutes in after describing what I did and what has happened in our marriage, he suggests I read ‘walking on eggshells’ and start learning about BPD.  I find another counselor who WILL see both of us.  We both go.  After a few sessions, he suggests we work with him individually.  He see’s her a couple times, me a couple times.  We talk about our backgrounds and goals.  We come back together.  He tells me she has a strong fear of abandonment that predates me.  She agrees.   In an individual session with me, he tells me she has BPD and he wants to refer her to a woman counselor who specializes in it.  He tells me not to mention BPD to her or why he was going to refer her, but he wanted me to know so I can support the suggestion.  He suggests the new counselor to her.  She explodes.  She refuses to see him again.  She refuses to go to any counselor.  Says he knew she feared abandonment and then abandoned her.  I keep going.  He starts pointing me to books on BPD. 

She continues having breakdowns.  Ripping out hair, hitting herself.  I tell her she would benefit from professional help.  She gets up off the floor and slaps me on the chest and shoving me across the room until I am up against the wall.

Things get worse.  Screaming, yelling, crying most nights.  Only getting 3-4 hours of sleep b/c she is ranting and raging most nights.  She sleeps in while I get up and take the school age kids to school and go to work.  Every holiday is a disaster as if every normal day were not bad enough.  Nothing I do helps.

One day, about a year and 4 months after she found out, she truly flips.  Breaks dishes, breaks pictures and smashes the broken glass on the floor in her bare feet.  She tosses a wooden train table…scares the life out of the littlest of the kids (as if all of this so far hasn’t).  She hits me.  Slaps me.  Pushes me.  Spits in my face.  Chases me around the house spitting on me and at me.   Counselor suggests I see a lawyer and file a restraining order. 

I see the lawyer.  He agrees, points me to the paperwork.  I go to the court house.  I call her.  I tell her what I am doing.  I tell her I do not want to do that but the physical violence and screaming has to stop.  In the face of such a thing, she agrees.  Has no real choice.  She resents the notion of a restraining order, still holds it against me that I wanted to do it and ‘was willing to’.  She insists that I stop seeing the counselor who suggested I get a restraining order.  Says he is poisoning me against her.  But she is level for a while.  Things are a little better for a few months.  Then they start getting worse again.  In anger, she hits me with a 40 pound backpack.  Leaves bruises on my ribs. 

Things have all blurred together so much.  At one point, when we were still seeing the last counselor, I would wake up fearful that she was going to kill me in my sleep.  This made her mad.

This past summer, she started punching and slapping me.  I picked up the phone to call 911, she slapped it out of my hand and continued punching me.  Then, collapsed on the floor and started clawing at her thighs and punching her chest and thighs, then hitting her head on the floor.  The next day, she has scabs from the clawing, bruises all over her thighs, chest and forehead.  I have bruises on my chest from where she punched me.   On a later date, this past summer, she locked me in the basement before work (I work…she doesn’t).  Granted…there is a sliding glass door in the basement.  Dress shoes, rain, mud.  I refused to go that way.  She started shoving photos she printed of the other woman under the door.  Copies of the email her husband sent her (that’s how she found out…her husband…which, I don’t blame him for that. )  Remember…this is more than 2 years after she found out.  I have a key to the door.  There is a chain on it.  I unlock the door, but she has chained it.  She pushes a knife through the opening.  I jump back initially, thinking she was trying to stab me but she says “take it!  Push it into my chest!”  I say no.  She says “TAKE IT!”  it is for effect….very effective.  Scared the life out of me.

I have no doubt I am leaving out a LOT.  The children are used to the rages, the cursing, and instability.  They are not surprised to see her throwing my clothes out the window or the front door.  That has happened at least half a dozen times.  Remove my clothes from the closet, throw them on the floor in the basement.  Throw them outside.  Move them back.  Throw them out again.  I won’t say they expect it, but they are not surprised when it happens.  In all of these, I am calm until she starts physically attacking me.  Then I have to get away from it.  I do get upset when she brings my mom into the conversation.  But I recognize she will say anything to hurt me. 

In calm moments, she asks for:

-   Kind words

-   To be chosen

-   To be taken out on dates.

In the beginning…the 1st year after the affair…I was happy to do these things.  I just needed to feel physically secure and not be yelled at.  That was too much.

And …well now I have spent my evening writing this down.  I know I am leaving stuff out.  Leaving out how I trigger her, no doubt.  Leaving out some of the things she has done, for sure.  Leaving out some of the stuff that screams BPD!  But…maybe it is screaming something else too.

What I know now, is that I have made a mistake (not just the affair…letting her remove me from the house, 2.5 years after she found out about the affair. 

[Lady31]

Oh my goodness.

This is REALLY bad.  SERIOUS.  I would check the laws where you live.

You need to record (video too if possible) this stuff!  This is dangerous, she could snap and hurt you.  Also, she could easily blame you for all this self harm. 

This is not healthy for your kids.  I would document everything possible - then get with your L and see if you can remove HER from the house and have her stay with her parents.

This doesn't mean the relationship has to be over - but if you don't set boundaries at this point your relationship has very little hope of getting better any other way. (Notice she got it together for a bit after threatening the RO - shows she can control herself.  She just thinks you will do nothing at this point and she can run all over you.)

The bottom line is - you have the power to stop this cycle the way it is.  Your kids need you to, even if you don't do it for yourself.

I would move back in (have another room you can sleep in/put lock on door?) - record all her craziness and already be ready to go file the RO.

She knows if anyone else gets wind of this that she looks way out there.  That is one reason she doesn't want you getting any validation from counselors.

[Take2]

Wow... .    thebadguy I am so so sorry for what you have been through and what you are still going through... .   

That is so unbelievably sad.  And truly kills me for your children.  I agree with what Lady31 said about finding out about having her removed from the house.  She is so abusive - those kids need it to stop.  YOU need it to stop. 

Listen, no one is perfect.  Yes you had an affair.  You are not perfect but you sound like a saint at this point for staying in this r/s... .    Forgive yourself for the affair.  She is beating you up plenty, physically and emotionally.  Don't do it to yourself also. 

Are her parents aware of all of this behavior?  they would have to be right?  If possible, can you enlist their help to get her away from those kids so that you can provide them with a stable home environment?  You can still work on your r/s if that's what you want, but honestly I think you need to do something to get your kids out of there... .    I know how terrible that sounds - trust me - I'm a mom!  But ugh.  And it's because of my own little girl that it breaks my heart what yours are going through... .   

This has been a long road for you - and you will clearly have a long road ahead but you can do this.  You are obviously very strong.  Stay strong and show your kids and yourself what is inside you... .  

[thefisherman]

It feels a lot less simple than what you are saying.  Don't get me wrong.  I know what you are saying is not simple.  Nothing is simple, of course.  I am pulled in two directions and they seem in conflict with eachother.  How can setting those boundaries possibly be on the same path as saving the relationship or making up for the affair?  It feels a bit like I would be blackmailing her with the children. 

All that aside, how do I keep her from taking the kids if she decides she needs to leave?