Married with kids, an affair, and BPD-like behavior

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

No... .  her parents don't know.  I do have some recordings, pictures and stuff she has broken (not of her self-harm mind you).  I have debated telling them.  they know what I did.  They support us trying to get back together.  They don't know what she has done and given their family history, I am a little concerned for what would happen if I shared the fact that I have evidence.

And I guess if I really think through it, I am afraid there would be a major backlash to enforcing boundaries and trying to limit her behavior.  Like getting falsely accused of stuff so she can keep me away from the kids.

[thefisherman]

No... .  her parents don't know.  I do have some recordings, pictures and stuff she has broken (not of her self-harm mind you).  I have debated telling them.  they know what I did.  They support us trying to get back together.  They don't know what she has done and given their family history, I am a little concerned for what would happen if I shared the fact that I have evidence.

And I guess if I really think through it, I am afraid there would be a major backlash to enforcing boundaries and trying to limit her behavior.  Like getting falsely accused of stuff so she can keep me away from the kids.

[Take2]

Well I can totally relate to the concerns/fears you have about enforcing boundaries because it might cause her to falsely accuse you of things and take your kids.

I work with my ex - in close proximity.  I fear that if I ever didn't play by his rules, he would make my life hell.  Of course it is hell there half the time - and that's when he IS accusing me of false things all the time. 

Today, I texted him a link to some article that I knew would interest him.  He reacted by saying that the person in the article was killed by some group of people  I wrote back and said "you don't know that for sure" - and I pointed that out because the actual article said they didn't know who had done it.  After ignoring me for the next hour - he then responded by sending 6 long texts about all the issue at hand, how I might as well have texted him and said what an idiot he is, that I pretty much called him a moron and that this is a prime example of how combative I am.  What ?

I'm combative.  I wasn't even arguing - I sought out an article online and texted to him because I thought he would LIKE it.  And my comment that he didn't know what happened for sure was simply fact from the article - NOT an argument. 

I haven't heard from him since.

I think he's completely lost his mind at this point... .  

[thefisherman]

I feel like a drama king.

Had a long fight today.  Went to watch the littlest while the middlest had swimming lessons.  Stayed after to try to start having a conversation.  it feels a bit like having a pocket full of keys trying to unlock a door you think one of them fits.  That one?  no.  This one?  No.  Try another.  No.

Things weren't improving per se, but they weren't degrading.  Then her ex husband called.  Their daughter (my stepdaugther) is with him this weekend.  They apparently had a 'discipline' issue.  I didn't hear the whole thing but it ammounts to... .  she is using instagram and is seeing a boy who is himself... .  not stable right now.  They had broken up and are apparently back together.  It's a long ridiculous early teen boy/girl relationship.  The jist is this... .  the daughter gets bad grades and it seems to correlate to her involvement with him and with social media (my wife tries incredibly hard to control the peer relationships of my stepdaughter... .  she rebels).  My wife blames me for her daughter being willing to lie to her mother and for putting herself in a relationship with a boy who is emotionally unstable (the incident she points to for this are 1. he put his fist through a sliding glass door when his parents took his phone because he was texting the daughter too much and failing school.  and 2. he went Fatal Attraction on her when she broke it off.  I can not quite fathom how she can SEE that is unhealthy but not recognize her own behaviors).  Now they are back together and she blames me.  My wife's 'tools' that she uses to encourage her daughter to stop the relationship are degrading her, degrading the boy, embarrassing her, and poking, poking poking.

She escalated.  She spit on me... .  started following me spitting on me.  I took out my phone to record.  She stopped.  I put the phone away, she escalated again.  I took the phone back out.

She feels she has no choices.  She either:

1. stays married to me and I make her feel like poop by not "choosing her".  (the worst I do is defend myself or disengage)

2.  She divorces me and loses her kids for some percent of the time (a further fear of hers is that if/when we divorce, I will connect with some woman like the one I had an affair with and let her be in my kids lives as a step parent).

I tell her she has another choice.  She can try to work with me to improve the relationship.  She says she has done all the work she is going to do and it is up to me to fix it.  I tell her it can't work that way.  I can't fix it while she is raging at me.  I don't say this part... .  but the reason it can't work like that is that she fully believes everything I say/do is a lie or done for selfish motives... .  thus... .  no matter what I do, she believes I am not doing anything to repair the damage.  Help.  Please.

[livednlearned]

When I was at a similar point with my ex, people would tell me I was playing with fire. Your choices get so awful, and the tinder box of emotions start to feel scary. I think you are at that point. You become accustomed to the abuse and you are no longer aware how extreme your life has become. I am concerned that you are going to become one of the people here on these boards who have been falsely accused of domestic violence, or sexual molestation.

From out here, that's where it looks like your situation is headed. Some stories here feel worse than others. Yours makes my hairs stand up on end.

So what can you do? Get as much information as you can. Some of what you have posted about your worries and concerns tell me you haven't done your homework as thoroughly as you can. Do you have an L? Ask people on the family law board what to expect, how to find a lawyer who understands BPD, how to prepare, and start making a plan. It doesn't mean you have to follow through -- maybe your wife will get better with intensive therapy, I don't know. But at the very least, get a plan so you can feel less despairing. When things are this stressful, we often go to the dark places and freak ourselves out. You're just spinning wheels when you do that.

I hope the bluntness isn't too off-putting.

[thefisherman]

I am perfectly fine with blunt. 

Financially... .  I will have to get my dad's help to get a lawyer to do anything but do the empty 'free' consultation.  I don't want to do that, but I will.  I make excellent money but my wife has full control of the finances... .  she would know I paid a lawyer.

I am in a weak position in terms of my kids legally because of me leaving the house.  And yes, i can return.  I am weary of that because of the fire you and I both know I am playing with.  But I don't think there is another option if I want to have my kids at least half the time.

And then there is the side of me that doesn't want to do anything that I know she will view as 'against' the relationship... .  which... .  seeing a lawyer... .  to her... .  against the relationship.  Posting on a message board... .  against the relationship.  Seeing a counselor who suggests a restraining order... .  against the relationship.

[Lady31]

I agree - this situation makes my hair stand on end too!

You are not stuck with no options, you just don't like the ones you have.  You have to choose the safety of those kids and yourself.  This woman is way out there - I agree with the comment as well that you are accustomed to the abuse.  This is BAD.

You taking it and crawling around in the dirt while she spits on you will make her spit on you more - not make her stop.  She has no respect for you and thinks you don't have what it takes to pull the trigger.  You allowing her to treat you this way makes her respect you even less, that is why she is not motivated to change anything.  This is not how you "earn" someone's forgiveness or repair the relationship.

REMEMBER - she sure changed her tune real quick when you were about to file an RO.  What she is pulling now is smoke and mirrors, trying to control your mind so much to keep you from putting up boundaries.  YOU CAN FORCE HER TO STOP - you are choosing this.

I would see an L - borrow the money from your dad like you said.

The point of getting her OUT and not taking the kids will most likely require an RO.  I am not sure, but I would guess. An L will tell you what all to document and how to prepare. 

I may be wrong - but prob go something like this:

Start getting things together/document stuff/make plan with L.

Move back into the house.  (She CAN'T physically stop you from this - but need to be prepared to file RO immediately before she does anything.  If she is out of control - bring people WITH YOU. Then let her act like a nut in front of them.)  L will tell you if this is a smart idea, or what order to do this in - but somehow get you back in the house.  Worse case - look at options to rent a place to move kids to and get a RO.  ?  Do whatever it takes.

The judge may even order her to some sort of treatment in order to see the kids if the documentation/evidence is bad enough.

I would think you have 0 chance of things getting better with your current approach.

And yes, getting her out of the house, getting RO if needed, putting up boundaries that stop the toxic craziness & abuse can STILL be part of a plan that is geared to working the marriage out as that is obviously still what you want.

You won't get it like this.  At the VERY least, there has to be a boundary that simply does not allow this type of abusive behavior for your own sanity and protection.  (I still think she needs to be away from the kids though!)  In this scenario, you simply do not go around her or respond to anything abusive.  If she sends abusive messages, don't respond.  If she calls and gets abusive, let her know the boundary and you would love to talk to her when she can calm down and treat you with respect and HANG UP.  If she gives you problems when you come by to pick up the kids - BRING A FRIEND when you pick them up (or her parents if she tries to hide this behaviour from them.)  If you are spending time together and she starts in get up and leave, don't get sucked into her threats.  Leave her sitting there on the floor pulling her hair out or call an ambulance.

Also, haven't the kids seen all that has gone down and mom act psycho and dad stay calm?  If she DID make false allegations against you, I think that would help BUT I would still want a lot of proof.

And how can she stop you from seeing the kids?  There is no RO on you. Bring someone with you and pick them up!  Of course, she will then see she is losing the power and can't control you and could resort at that point to making false allegations against you so you have no power or control yet again.  Which leads me back to... .  

You will MORE likely than not need to get an L and aggressively put this to a halt. 

My prayer is for you to have the strength and courage to stand up against this abusive tyrannt - that is who she is right now.

[livednlearned]

I am in a weak position in terms of my kids legally because of me leaving the house.  

Have you consulted with an L in your state about your situation? I apologize -- I've been following so many stories here I sometimes get the details mixed up!

I had not found this site when I filed for divorce, but I did get a lot of advice from people around me, and for the most part, it was incorrect, including quasi professionals who were well-intentioned but just plain wrong (domestic violence advocates, my therapist, lawyer friends in other states). Nothing wrong with that -- family law is complex. I'm just saying if you haven't talked to a lawyer in your state, you may discover that leaving your home is not going to weaken you legally. There are a thousand things that weaken a case legally, and the key is to minimize them. If you have a good plan and are smart about how you prepare to leave, your wife will be in the weaker position.

I may be wrong, but I think I understand your mentality -- you live with an abuser who scares the crap out of you, and you believe what she says. The antidote to that is to counter that voice with someone who knows how things really work, and someone who is willing to really work for you. My ex is a trial attorney and he told me for years that no judge would give me custody of our child, no one would believe us, he would destroy me in court, blah blah blah, I would live in section 8 housing and on and on. None of that has happened. He said he would petition for full custody of S11 and instead he takes less than the time he is currently offered through a temporary custody order. People with BPD say a lot of things when they feel seriously threatened and abandoned. They know how to push our fear buttons.

For most of us, we know very little about how family courts and family law work, so it's easy for that fear to set on fire in our minds. There is nothing more important at a time like this than paying for expert advice to counter the extreme fear and despair we experience. Beg borrow or steal money to retain a lawyer. For me, it was 5 grand. I had to borrow it from my dad for similar reasons. If you can't get it from him, open a new credit card in your name only and use that.

When I left, I had only had a consultation with my lawyer. I was getting ready to retain her, and getting ready to move out of the house while my husband was away at a conference. I had been planning my exit for a year based on the advice she gave me at my first consultation. (Create a separate account, get a storage locker, photocopy key documents, have a safety plan, record everything, etc.). One of my biggest concerns was that I might have to flee the house for my safety and leave my son behind. I was worried that my ex could claim I had abandoned S11 and use that against me. My lawyer said over and over, "Safety first. Then you call me."

Read Matt's story on the family law boards. Or ForeverDad's. There are others, too, who waited too long.

You can do this -- it won't be easy, and it will suck for a while, but eventually there will be periods where your head clears and you feel better, and then at some point you realize, hey, I am doing good! You're a good dad and a good person, and you can do this.

[Randi Kreger]

My opinion only, but I would tackle the issue of not seeing your children first, seeing that  they're being taken care of someone not mentally fit to be a mother. I would also suggest changing your name on this board.

[livednlearned]

Building on Randi's good point -- there are laws preventing parents from obstructing relationships between kids and their parents. One of the reasons family law is so aggravating and complex and exasperating is because people like your wife pull emotional blackmail stunts like the one you're experiencing. Then we need laws to help us make sure these kinds of things don't happen. She is preventing you from seeing the kids not because of your relationship with them, but cause of her grief and rage toward you.

If you retain an L and start to involve professionals, your situation is going to improve. Her rage is going to increase, but your situation is going to improve.

The difference is significant.

[thefisherman]

I hear the advice.  I am taking the day, stepping back, trying to evaluate the situation.

I have not contacted her today.  I am angry about how the contact went yesterday. 

Now she is trying to contact me (she just texted... .  I have not replied yet).  I know she is upset I am not pursuing her.  I want to act and react in a healthy adult way.  Unfortunately, this has not been a healthy adult relationship for a long, long time.  So I don't know if staying quiet is a healthy adult reaction.  Thoughts?

For the benefit of context, here's the text.

"So... .  nothing?  nothing at all... another day to add onto all of the other ones before. 0% time.  thoughts. words. actions, invested into "fixing" the mess u have made."

[Matt]

Seems like several big, complicated issues.  Lots of good feedback from others here, including some members who have been through similar stuff... .  

Here's my attempt to break it down:

* The affair.  I think it was wrong, and it would be hurtful to anyone, especially someone with her background.  You've acknowledged that it was wrong, you've committed to be faithful and you've kept that commitment for more than two years.  And you've spent time in counseling with her.  That's about all you can do.  By continuing to use it against you, it's pretty clear she is not interested in moving forward.  I think you should move forward without her;  that is, forgive yourself and not let it be used against you any more.

For example, what if you set a boundary:  "I will not listen to more talk about the affair.  If you bring it up, the conversation is over."  Then maintain that boundary - walk away.

You might also want to figure out the best way to talk with each kid about the affair - at least the older ones.  Take away your wife's power by getting it out in the open.  "I made a bad mistake three years ago.  I was seeing a woman.  That was wrong, and I stopped, and apologized to your mom, and I haven't done it again."

* The relationship.  I've never told anyone that I think they should end their marriage, but frankly this isn't going to get better unless she gets the help she needs, and that is entirely beyond your control, and very unlikely.  You need to accept that this relationship is toxic and probably always will be.  Quit telling yourself that the kids would be hurt by a divorce - that's true, but probably much less than they are being hurt by how things are now.  My kids have done much, much better since I created a Mom-free zone for them.  Like night and day.  For you, the sooner you accept that the relationship is toxic, and create a "Mrs. Fisherman-free zone" for yourself, the sooner you'll begin to heal, and every aspect of your life will get better.

* Does she have BPD?  Who knows.  In the divorce process, it may be possible for you both to be evaluated by an objective instrument like the MMPI-2;  that's the only real way to answer this question.  But it's not the key question.  What's key is her patterns of behavior.  You have described them vividly.  They will not change, except they'll probably get worse if you continue to feed the disease (which is what you are doing by accepting her aggressive behavior).

* Danger.  This is the biggest point I think.  You are at high risk right now - physical injury, or more likely arrest.  Your situation mirrors my own around 2006.  I also thought - and often said - "We will never get a divorce."  I believed that the marriage could be fixed, and that it was my obligation to do whatever I could til I found a solution.  I realized I was wrong in jail after my wife physically attacked me and then accused me of assault.

You may think that if she attacks you, you have nothing to fear from the police.  You are wrong.  The police assume that the man is the attacker, although women attack men just as often as men attack women.  They assume that removing you from the home will mean everybody is safe, although women actually harm men as often as men harm women - the idea that because we're bigger and stronger we're the main source of danger is false, because women are more likely to pick up an object.

You may think that if you did nothing wrong you won't be arrested.  That is false, as my own case showed.  The police found solid evidence that proved my wife was lying, and put it in their report, which was issued a few weeks later.  But their procedures still required them to arrest me and charge me with ":)omestic violence - assault".  That's what it says if you look up my name online - the arrest record can never be sealed, purged, or expunged.  So any potential employer can see that.  I haven't had a full-time job since that happened - nobody will give me an interview with that on my record.

The only good way to avoid going to jail and having DV on your public record forever is to never - never - never be in the same place as her, without a non-family adult third party present every minute.  If the non-family adult third party goes to the bathroom, you go too - don't remain where she is for a second, or she can use that time to accuse you of something, and you will go to jail.  (Even with the police record proving she lied, it still took 2 months and $5,000 to get the charges dropped, by the way.  Plus 16 hours of hard time.)

If you go to jail, you can't help your kids.  Your custody case will be toast.  Your career might be affected.  Your mug shot will be on the internet.  People won't trust your story - "If he didn't do anything wrong why was he arrested?".

Job one is to talk to a family law attorney and a criminal defense attorney - not the same person.  Find out your options.  Find out how best to avoid arrest without weakening your case.  (Moving out would be best to avoid arrest, but might weaken your custody case, for example.)  Talk to as many attorneys as you can - you don't have to give one a retainer til you're sure.

If you're not sure about divorce, you don't have to file for divorce, but make sure you have a court-established schedule for the kids - at least half their time with you - or you'll be playing a losing hand.

Document everything.  Only communicate with her by e-mail - no phone or face-to-face communications.

Accept that the relationship is toxic and probably has to go.  Focus on what's best for the kids, which is probably as much time with you as possible and as little unsupervised time with Mom as possible.

When you are ready to go into the legal stuff, you can do that on our Family Law board.  Nobody here can give legal advice but we can share what we've learned.

With all due respect to other members who are still focused on making their relationships work, I would suggest you stay off the "Staying" and "Undecided" boards here - they will only confuse you.  This woman is dangerous.  Your goal should not be to live with the scorpion but to protect yourself and your kids from it.

[PrettyPlease]

Hi fisherman,

I've read your story and like the other posters I'm seriously concerned. After your posting of the text of your wife's last message I felt a need to say something. Her text was eerily like things my uBPDexg/f used to say to me, before we parted ways.

However Matt has said almost all of what I had brewing in me (and better than I could, and much more besides), but I want to add this, which comes from my own experience. I'm new here and have been reading on the site for a month. Several of the Lesson boards hit me like a hammer, and I realized that I had experienced as many as 3 major painful relationships with uBPD people over several decades, two of which are still ongoing (although at a distance). The question then was put to me by a friend: am I doing something to attract this?

I then read the 10 myths we tell ourselves that keep us stuck, and these may be useful to you if you haven't already read them.

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm

One of them (#9) seemed obviously something that contributed to my continuing in the stuck r/s states, and three or four other myths, though less obvious, I eventually realized I was believing also (each myth has a corresponding thread where they are discussed in detail by posters; links are at the bottom of that first article).

After reading all 10 myths and their discussions, I realized something that is well-understood by many of the posters on this site: that any relationship is a dance that has limited steps. Each partner in the dance is contributing. For the dance to continue both must play their parts, very limited parts, or the dance falls apart. And like many here I was trained in my FOO in the part that is called 'enabler', or 'caretaker', and in many cases that part hooks almost seamlessly with the dance-steps that a BPD person requires.

But we can't change them. We can only change ourselves. So learning about myself as caretaker was the key to stopping the dance. I've already instituted some of the detaching tools explained elsewhere on this site, and almost immediately there was a change for the better in both my uBPD relationships, and hence my life.

I know your situation is hugely more dangerous and complicated, but I believe part of the overall pattern may be the same.

Good luck.

PP

[Lady31]

I agree with everything Matt said! Very well written and concise - and right on the money!

I purposefully check in to the site to see if there are any updates on your situation since this thread started.

I pray you realize how serious this could be for you and act as soon as possible!

[thefisherman]

made an appt. w/ counselor to identify appropriate legal help.

Question... .  what possibilities OTHER than BPD are there for my wife's behavior related to me and the affair?

Self-harm + eating disorder

Physical abuse

Verbal abuse

Destruction of property

Eating disorder

Black/White thinking

[Cardinals in Flight]

I agree with everything Matt said! Very well written and concise - and right on the money!

I purposefully check in to the site to see if there are any updates on your situation since this thread started.

I pray you realize how serious this could be for you and act as soon as possible!

Me too!  I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but do you have a post office box? Somewhere you can get necessary mail without her knowledge?  Just a thought... .  

Hang tough

CiF

[DreamGirl]

made an appt. w/ counselor to identify appropriate legal help.

Question... .  what possibilities OTHER than BPD are there for my wife's behavior related to me and the affair?

Self-harm + eating disorder

Physical abuse

Verbal abuse

Destruction of property

Eating disorder

Black/White thinking

Is it important to you what the diagnosis is? I see a lot of behavior, regardless of it being a manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder, that you are "allowing" because you admit that you screwed up (by having an affair).

thefisherman, I've been to marriage counseling for infidelity (his).

I was allocated about two sessions focusing on the validation I needed that I had, in fact, been betrayed... .  and how I was a 'victim' of his choice. I was deeply wounded and I was dealing with it as someone who had been traumatized - with a hypervigilance to it. My husband had caused a lot of pain and he needed to acknowledge that. And he did.

But then came the hard part.

The moment when I had to admit to how I helped in contributing to the breakdown of my marriage. The lack of intimacy that I helped create was what was creating the problems in my marriage - the affair was simply a poor coping skill on my husband's part.

Ultimately being able to salvage my marriage took a lot of work on my husband's part and my part. My husband also wouldn't live like you are - taking all the blame. That was his boundary, he would admit to screwing up. He would comply with complete transparency (offering details, severing the relationship with his mistress, access to all phone records, emails, facebook, etc). However, he would not live his life being punished for the mistake he made... .  that was unhealthy for our entire family. Him, me, and our children.

It's been going on three years, thefisherman. At some point it isn't so much about the fact that you cheated on your wife, it starts to be about how she just couldn't get over it.

I don't think you want to live your life like this. Your wife gets to make "her decision" which seems to be that she is content with your current state of living. You are not OK with it.

Waiting on her to "come around" isn't really working for you.

It's time to perhaps move forward in a direction where you get to make some limits and she gets to decide whether or not she wants to comply.   Your own therapist can help you come up with some ideas on how you are willing to live your life - and how you are not willing to live your life.  Example: A therapeutic separation where you live separately and both of you attend individual counseling along with marriage counseling.  You only date each other and you work on rebuilding trust in the marriage.

You're stagnant here, tfm, and it's not fair to you - or your wife.

Yes, she's been traumatized and that is a really hard place to be. I know. However, it's time she start dealing with that trauma or it's time to move on.

BPD or not.

[Take2]

I have to admit it... .  I too keep checking this one... .    really worried about you and your kids... .   

[livednlearned]

do you have a post office box? Somewhere you can get necessary mail without her knowledge?  Just a thought... .  

Good idea. I did the same thing. It was my first step.

[thefisherman]

It was a relatively eventless night.  Left work early to go care for the kids while my wife took the oldest (my stepdaughter) to a school function.  I am at least a convenient baby sitter.  I find it a little frustrating that she says even something as clear as that, isn't a 'gesture of sincere caring or concern for her'.  Apparently I just did it to get the time with the kids (her words).

I have some internal conflict.  I LIKE not being in the same house as my wife.  I am so much lighter in that regard.  Miss the kids.  Do not miss the stress, tension, and anxiety.  Not one bit.  It is interesting to see when she is calm or not present how often they will come to me for affection.  Each of them, even the 5 y/o who starts telling me 'mom hates you' any time she yells.  It is rather reassuring.  I have been made to feel incompetent with regard to my parenting skills.  I am a good parent.  Not a perfect house keeper, but a good parent.  One thing that frustrates me... .  where I am typically more lax than my wife.  I am frustrated by the fact that her rules for the kids, her mode of discipline are stuck in my head.  I need to work on that.  Althought... .  as I think through it, I try to keep them in compliance so they don't get in trouble with her.

I am starting to feel a bit of guilt over the possibility that I may prefer to separate.  I feel bad for failing to keep my kids' home a happy one.  I cringe at the notion of splitting holidays, birthdays, weekends.

Why do I want to know what it is, if it isn't BPD?  Because the kids are going to have to live with it their whole lives.  It may lessen when I am not in the picture.  But they will still have to work with her and survive.  I need to be able to give them skills.  And I have more than just a passing interest.  My degree is in psychology.  Anyway... .  

[Take2]

I have some internal conflict.  I LIKE not being in the same house as my wife. 

I am starting to feel a bit of guilt over the possibility that I may prefer to separate.  I feel bad for failing to keep my kids' home a happy one. 

Of course you like living without your wife.  She is a very, very troubled person. 

It's really hard to believe that these kids are in a happy household with the way things are with you and your wife... .  and from what you have written, it's very hard to believe that they are in a happy household with her anywhere around.  I know she is their mother but she is wildly abusive.  You will do your kids and yourself a huge favor, in my opinion, by making a home that is a safe, loving environment without abuse... .   

[thefisherman]

I had about a 10 minute breakthrough today.  Well... .  it lasted about 10 minutes for me.  Not sure if it really ever felt like a breakthrough to her.

I had texted something nice this morning.  She texted back something nice a couple hours later... .  frankly out of character... .  a 1 in a 10000 sort of comment from her.  I accepted it for about 10 minutes and then asked her if that message was meant for me.  Back to the dark side with me.  I don't think I have mentioned anywhere in here that I have good reason to think she is having an emotional affair and has been for quite some time.  She has mistakenly texted me before when it was intended for her male friend.  That message was harmless, though pointed to them getting to know eachother awfully well.  I have left it alone.  She got pretty worked up just over me asking if her message was meant for me.  I don't think I could fathom what it would be like if I said "you have been texting this guy at all hours of the day and night.  You have been deleting texts between you.  I believe you are having at least an emotional affair. 

[Cardinals in Flight]

Maybe as part of your gathering information for your 'case', you could begin to look at your cell phone bills really closely for patterns? Then keep them for your records.  Just a thought

CiF

[livednlearned]

I had about a 10 minute breakthrough today.  Well... .  it lasted about 10 minutes for me.  Not sure if it really ever felt like a breakthrough to her.

I had texted something nice this morning.  She texted back something nice a couple hours later... .  frankly out of character... .  a 1 in a 10000 sort of comment from her.  I accepted it for about 10 minutes and then asked her if that message was meant for me.  Back to the dark side with me.  I don't think I have mentioned anywhere in here that I have good reason to think she is having an emotional affair and has been for quite some time.  She has mistakenly texted me before when it was intended for her male friend.  That message was harmless, though pointed to them getting to know eachother awfully well.  I have left it alone.  She got pretty worked up just over me asking if her message was meant for me.  I don't think I could fathom what it would be like if I said "you have been texting this guy at all hours of the day and night.  You have been deleting texts between you.  I believe you are having at least an emotional affair. 

Well, that would fit with this whole business of projection that seems to go hand in hand with BPD.

If you found out yes, she was texting Some Guy 200 times a day, what would you do with this information? Would it help absolve you of your guilt? Would it make it easier to leave?

[thefisherman]

I know she is texting with this guy a lot.  I would say at least 10 messages each way every day.  I think that is probably very conservative.  I would be surprised if it is not twice that.

What would it do for me to understand the content of that relationship?

It would help me believe that I have done what I can do.  Why does it do that?  I have been wrangling with how to pursue her in a way that would let her reconcile our relationship for herself such that we can reconnect and move forward, as difficult as that may be. 

If she has connected in significant ways with another man, that lets me know that she is rejecting my attempts, quite likely, for reasons other than what she has communicated... .  which are basically that I am an awful person in her eyes. 

I do not doubt I am an awful person in her eyes, but her involvement with the other man gives me a reason for her cold shoulder OTHER THAN me not trying hard enough.

Crazy?  Maybe.    you asked. 

[DreamGirl]

thefisherman,

I'm a little bit confused as to what you want your marriage to look like. I see issue after issue piling up here - and you sending her a text back asking if her nice text was meant for you was not conducive of you wanting to reduce the conflict.   

I see a lot of unclear boundaries in your marriage. Infidelity perhaps being a consequence of those blurry lines as to what relationships with the opposite sex are allowed to look like in your marriage.

You are allowing her to have this relationship in secret hoping that she figures it out.

Not fair to you and it certainly is not going to help your marriage. Sorry, it's just not.

If you are interested in having a marriage where other women and men are allowed in - why not be in an open marriage? Take monogamy off the table?

- DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

I agree my text didn't help.  I wanted to know the answer but I could have/should have crafted it in a different way.  Perhaps say something ELSE nice and see if she responds.  I guess i expected a response and... yes.  I do this sort of thing often.  I am not intending/wanting to perpetuate conflict or cause further hurt feelings... .  but I do sometimes by being direct and asking the question I really want to ask instead of taking a nuanced approach.

Her relationship with the other man is not in secret.  Well... .  she doesn't think it is a secret.  I know who he is.  I know they text.  She knows I know.  The discrepancy is that I also know she deletes texts between them.  She, on one hand says she has nothing to hide and on the other hand hides things.

I have not pushed it because I believe there is no physical aspect to their relationship and I feel like the pot calling the kettle black.

I am realizing in the last few days (starting with me questioning who the text was meant for) that I think there is something more than innocent friendship there.  And I suspect her defensive response to my question communicates she knows there is more to it as well.

Given that revelation, while i do not think there is a reason in the world that she should be abusive like she has been... .  I better understand her motivation to demonize me.  BPD or not-BPD?  I think BPD.  I think she has found someone new to put on a pedestal so she can keep me in the dungeon.

None of this sounds anything like a marriage I want.  I will not live in the dungeon forever.  I won't stay in a marriage that entails more than 2 adults.  I recognize the irony and hypocrisy of ME saying that.

I am perhaps delusional.  I am definitely numb to the situation. 

Perhaps the rest of the world see’s no point in thinking about it any further.  For people outside, it is cut and dried.  For me, I am scared.  I am unsure.  I know what divorce means, better than most.  I have experienced it through my wife’s 1st divorce.  I feel inadequate to handle the situation but perfectly fit to analyze it.

[DreamGirl]

So here you are.

Do you want the marriage to work?

Or do you stay because you're afraid of divorce?

You've made both statements.

In this thread.

I see you fluctuating between this guy who desperately loves his wife and feels really bad for a mistake he made... .  to this guy who doesn't really like his wife very much because she doesn't treat him very well.

The "rest of the world" doesn't matter.

Personally, I don't really care which direction you go, I'll support you either way.  

I want you to make the decision to get yourself healthy and learn to be OK with whatever direction this relationship goes. I just want you to pick the direction and then stick to it. Right now, you're kinda stuck in this purgatory where you're doing a lot of contemplating... .  and fluctuating between feeling sorry for yourself, feeling sorry for your wife and being really mad at yourself and being really mad at your wife.

If you want to work on your marriage, you need to establish boundaries. Limits based on your values. I think a good one to start with is opposite sex relationships. "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, PhD is a really, really good place to figure out these kinds of definitions of what you allow/don't allow in your marriage and why it's not healthy to outsource this kind of "intimacy".  Intimacy is letting people into the sacred spaces of ourselves and every time she is talking intimately with her "friend", it causes you and her more and more disconnect.    

I also like Matt's suggestion about not talking about the affair anymore. Dead horse. Beaten.

I get that she's upset, but at this point - 2 1/2 years later - it is now her issue to deal with. It is not yours to fix, you did your part and will continue doing it (transparency and rebuilding trust). An individual counselor to help her deal with the trauma and the grief is what she needs, not you turning yourself inside out to prove your faithfulness.

Even if you don't want to work on your marriage, you still need to establish different kinds of boundaries for yourself and what's happening with your kiddos.

You feel powerless because you feel like you have no choice.

But you do have a choice.

You are choosing your situation. Right now. You are taking part in it every step of the way. You are in fact caught up in this "dungeon"... .  except there is not really a dragon keeping you from walking up the dungeon steps to wherever it is that you want to go.

It's in your hands in what direction to go.

The same way that it's in her hands which direction she wants to go.

Check out this link:   The Bridge

~DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

So here you are.

Do you want the marriage to work?

Yes.

Or do you stay because you're afraid of divorce?

Yes.

I see you fluctuating between this guy who desperately loves his wife and feels really bad for a mistake he made... .  to this guy who doesn't really like his wife very much because she doesn't treat him very well.

I do love my wife.  I do feel bad for my mistakes.  I do not like the abuse and I resent it.

Personally, I don't really care which direction you go, I'll support you either way. 

Thank you.

I want you to make the decision to get yourself healthy and learn to be OK with whatever direction this relationship goes. I just want you to pick the direction and then stick to it. Right now, you're kinda stuck in this purgatory where you're doing a lot of contemplating... .  and fluctuating between feeling sorry for yourself, feeling sorry for your wife and being really mad at yourself and being really mad at your wife.

I will not be ok with continued abuse.  It is difficult to love a person and be abused by them.  That is why you see me keep trying to find a way to make the abuse stop…by changing me or by changing her (and I realize only she can change her…but yes…I keep wanting to show her things that may sway her to change herself).  And yes, I keep trying to show her things that say “I love you” so she can perhaps be ok with me…and yes…I recognize that is me saying I want to change her.  

If you want to work on your marriage, you need to establish boundaries. Limits based on your values. I think a good one to start with is opposite sex relationships. "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, PhD is a really, really good place to figure out these kinds of definitions of what you allow/don't allow in your marriage and why it's not healthy to outsource this kind of "intimacy".  Intimacy is letting people into the sacred spaces of ourselves and every time she is talking intimately with her "friend", it causes you and her more and more disconnect.   

Boundaries I would like: No yelling.  No hitting (not each other, not the kids).  No breaking stuff (not even food).   Relationship with lawyer needs to end (I hesitate on this…because I don’t know if the content is crossing into inappropriate territory.  I do not want to control who she is friends with.)

I also like Matt's suggestion about not talking about the affair anymore. Dead horse. Beaten.

I get that she's upset, but at this point - 2 1/2 years later - it is now her issue to deal with. It is not yours to fix, you did your part and will continue doing it (transparency and rebuilding trust). An individual counselor to help her deal with the trauma and the grief is what she needs, not you turning yourself inside out to prove your faithfulness.

I would like to give her one more opportunity to address it verbally, get out whatever she needs to get out and then yes.  Dead horse. If she needs to re-address the affair itself, then she can write a letter but should not expect a response.  Not sure if that is too harsh. 

Even if you don't want to work on your marriage, you still need to establish different kinds of boundaries for yourself and what's happening with your kiddos.

You feel powerless because you feel like you have no choice.

But you do have a choice.

This is the scary part to me.  I have asked for those boundaries before.  She has refused them all.  Even when I had threatened the restraining order…she eventually went back to everything that I needed to stop.   In terms of ‘the bridge’…yes…she refuses to make it possible to save her.  My version of the bridge is more difficult because it feels to me a little like I pushed her off the bridge and THEN held on tight.

You are choosing your situation. Right now. You are taking part in it every step of the way. You are in fact caught up in this "dungeon"... .  except there is not really a dragon keeping you from walking up the dungeon steps to wherever it is that you want to go.   It's in your hands in what direction to go.

True that I am choosing my situation.    I have been trying to make the decisions that keep my marriage intact.  I am trying to not worry about myself.  I am not always succeeding. 

Check out this link:   The Bridge

Like I said…I feel a bit like I pushed her.   Struggling with that.

[Matt]

I have asked for those boundaries before.  She has refused them all.  Even when I had threatened the restraining order…she eventually went back to everything that I needed to stop.

You don't "ask for" boundaries.  You don't threaten them.  You don't negotiate them.  You don't debate them.

You set boundaries, and maintain them.

"If you do X, I will do Y."

One I had to figure out was, "If you speak inappropriately to me on the phone - raging, accusing, blaming, complaining, etc. - I will hang up."  It took me a long time to actually do this, but once I got my act together, I only had to do it a few times.  I win either way - if she quit speaking inappropriately to me on the phone, great.  If not, I just don't talk to her on the phone anymore.  (She quit trashing me on the phone, pretty much.  I haven't had to hang up on her in a long time now.  But then we rarely talk on the phone... .  )

I didn't even ever say those words to her.  I just did it.  I made the decision, and the next time she started in, I hung up, and when she called back, I didn't pick up.  We were done.  A few weeks later it happened again, and I maintained my boundary again.  She's smart, so I'm sure she saw what was happening, and she changed her behavior.  If she hadn't, we just wouldn't talk on the phone anymore.

In your case, you get to decide what those boundaries will be.  You can also decide whether you say them, or just do them.  You decide how you will be treated, just like I decided how I will be spoken to on the phone.

I am trying to not worry about myself.  I am not always succeeding.

You have it backwards.  You need to put yourself first - you can't take care of anyone else if you're not OK.  And the kids second.  The marriage makes sense only if it is good for you and for the kids.  (And my opinion is - very strongly - from what you've told us, this marriage is not good for anyone.  But of course yours is the judgment that counts.)

Many of us have tried to make things better by putting the other party's needs first.  That doesn't work.  You can't meet her needs, no matter what you do, because her problem is between her ears, and you can't fix that.  Putting her needs ahead of your own, and the kids', means nobody's needs will be met.

It's on her to get the help she needs.  Til she does that, she will be deeply unhappy.  You can either work on meeting your own needs, and the kids' needs, or you can continue in this dysfunctional situation that isn't good for anybody.

[DreamGirl]

Building on what Matt said - boundaries are about us. It's not telling others how to act but more about how we live our values and protect those values.

From our Boundary Workshop:

Upholding our values and independence

Values.   A healthy relationship is sometimes described as an “inter-dependent” relationship of two “independent” people. Regardless of the type of relationship, we all come to it with values that we intend to honor and defend regardless of the nature of the relationship - these are known as core values or independent values - this is what defines us.  

We also have values that we are prepared to mold and adapt as we blend with the other person in the relationship - these become inter-dependent values - this is how we grow together.

Having a healthy relationship takes a great deal of self awareness and knowing:

• which values are independent, core values to be upheld by us and defended (in a constructive way, of course), and

• which values are more open for compromise or replacement based on our blending with and building a relationship with another person (partner, friend, relative).

Independent core values    Identify and live your personal values!  Independent core values determine our decisions and guide our lives. It's important that we stay true to them- they should be clearly reflected in the life choices we make.  Those who value their individuality take responsibility, are self-reliant and act with self-respect. Those who value truthfulness cannot bring themselves to tell a lie. Those who value family or friendship sacrifice their personal interests for the good of others. Those who value goodness cannot bring themselves to do something they know is wrong. We express values in our relations with other people when we are loyal, reliable, honest, generous, trusting, trustworthy, feel a sense of responsibility for family, friends, co-workers, our organization, community or country.

Be realistic    Being realistic about values is important. If we have an unusually large number of uncompromisable independent values / core values, we may be too dogmatic to have a relationship with very many people. At the same time, if we have so few independent values, or such a weak commitment to them, we will then be "undefined" to ourselves and to others. When that happens, the only values that matter are those of others. The latter is common in codependent or enmeshed relationships.


Boundaries    Boundaries are how we define our values to others.   A boundary is nothing more than the outer perimeters of our independent core values -  it's like a fence  - anything inside the boundary is consistent with our core values and anything outside the boundary is not.  For example, if your independent core value is "always to be respectful of others" a boundary question might be "would abruptly walking out of the room when someone says something offensive be inside or outside of your definition of this value?"  It's not always obvious - we all see things differently.  As you can quickly see, with values, we have a significant responsibility to lead, educate and inform others - we must walk the walk, have effective communication and be consistent.

There are three types of boundaries:

~ Physical boundaries help us determine who may touch us and under what circumstances.

~ Mental boundaries give us the freedom to have our own thoughts and opinions.

~ Emotional boundaries help us deal with our own emotions and disengage from the harmful, manipulative emotions of others.


Defending Boundaries   Even when we live our values responsibly,  we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves.   Counter-intuitive, I know.  <1> Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  :)o we need to change one?  <2> Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  :)o we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

We also need to look at all the options(s) we have to available to us to help us navigate back and stay true to our value.  I use the plural form of option because just saying "no" and taking timeout is not enough. Yes, it helps greatly in the moment, but if we are in a value hostile environment, we need to look at all the ways we can address that.

Having values empowers us and motivates others.

I listen to the points of view of others and take them seriously

I treat everybody with respect

I am always supportive of family and friends

I am totally honest in all my dealings with others

... .  and I expect that same.

Defending boundaries (without values) tends to be shallow, reactive, and confrontational

I will not tolerate you getting in my face (stated aggressively)

If you do things I don't like, I will respond by doing things that are equally distressing to you

You weren't there when I needed you, so I wasn't there when you need me

Etc.

thefisherman, I know that our feelings are always valid. It's the best kept secret that I learned to communicating in every one of my relationships. We all have a right to feel however we feel no matter what others think we should feel.  

You feel responsible for your wife's unraveling due to your affair and that's a hard place to be. I also think that is common in marriages that are trying to recover from an affair. Guilt is a very powerful emotion, an it's taking ahold over all logic and reason in this.

You didn't push her of that proverbial bridge.

She jumped.

She is making a choice not to deal with these problems in your marriage and expecting you to do it for her. It is just not how it works.  

You can't fix it for her and the only thing you can change about this unhealthy dynamic is to change how you deal with things.

The hard truth: If you wait for her to change and realize that you are a good husband despite a mistake you made, you're going to be waiting a really long time. She doesn't have the skill set.

You effect the change in the relationship by developing your own skill set in dealing with her and the issues she presents. You live by your own values and you establish boundaries (and adhere to them all the time) because you deserve it - not because you want her to be someone she's not and act the way you want her to act.

The Staying Board has senior members who are absolutely AMAZING at setting boundaries and learning to communicate with your wife in a more productive way. The one time that you used the SET technique worked pretty well in that it defused the conflict and helped both of you stay calm. That's a good place to be.

I hope this helps you. I know that you are really struggling.

I think you that you are doing all the right things (a counselor and legal advice) and it's really hard to stay grounded when our emotions run so high.  



~DreamGirl