Sexual intimacy issues - abuse and BPD/NPD mom

[OZtoAZ]

Hi All,

It's been a while since I've been to these boards---and I'm so grateful that they are still here!  They have been a great help to me in the past.

My mom has undiagnosed BPD (but I am a psychologist and it's glaringly clear!)  She also has many tendencies of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, too.

She was very, very emotionally abusive growing up.  My dad was also a narcissist (which explains their divorce when I was a teen!).  I was also sexually abused by a relative when I was around 13-14.

I am having trouble in my current LT relationship (12 years) with sexual intimacy.  It's come to a head and the relationship is at risk.  He's a GREAT guy, but this has gotten in the way of an otherwise strong relationship.

My issue is that early on in any relationship, I had no significant issues with sex.  I felt like I wanted to please my partner and admittedly, I realize that part of it was so that he would be interested in me/I would meet his approval.  

Once we fell in love (12 yrs ago), the sex tapered off because we became more "in love" and I have always (as I am now realizing) seen sex as sex---and love as love---and yet I have NEVER felt like sex = love, or intimacy.  It always has just felt physical, without any emotional "perks" to it.  My fiance talks about sex as being something that makes you feel love, loved, emotion, and is 100x better than a kiss (to me, a kiss feels like love, but sex does not.)

He makes me feel good during sex, physically. He's kind, gentle, and caring.  No red flags.  I just

don't get the emotional rush from it that apparently most "normal" people do.  Physically, it's like cheesecake---but emotionally, it's the equivalent of knitting.  

The kicker is that when he has asked for/initiated sex, I have felt like saying "no" because I always interpreted sex as something that males expect---and that it's not about loving me, it's about the sex. In reality, I KNOW (and have always known) he loves me. He is very loving.   No doubt.  I just felt like he'd do a Dr. Jeckyl/Mr Hyde when he would ask for sex---because I felt like I trusted him that he loved me... .  but then he would try to initiate sex.  I'd then feel like it was a big bait-and-switch.   His request made me feel like we took 100 steps backwards!  I felt like saying, "I thought you loved me for ME... .  but you just wanted sex."  That's how I felt each time he'd ask.  Yet, I knew in my head that was not what he was doing--but it felt that way.

This has been a theme in my life... .  and I'm curious... .  

How many of you (women, most likely), suffered at the hand of a BPD and/or Narcissistic mother---and now have intimacy issues like what I describe?

I feel like when it comes to people liking me for "my looks" or for "sex" I just want to scream, "I want you to love me for ME, not for looks or sex."

This might also explain some of my overweight issues, too.

I just don't feel any emotional connection during or after sex.  I do after a hug, or kiss, or cuddle---those feel amazing... .  but sex just feels I ate a cookie.  It was good... .  but didn't make me feel any more or less "in love" or connected, with my partner.  He, in contrast, says that that feeling is amazing, and emotional, and powerful.  I feel like an idiot that somehow I missed the memo on having all those powerful emotional feelings.  Again, he says it's like a Kiss x 1000.  Kisses are amazing to me... .  and hugs... .  and cuddling... .  but sex feels like pressure, selfish (on the man's part), and expected.  

Interestingly, I am absolutely beyond embarrassed to ask for sex myself.  I couldn't bring myself to do it---and I am terribly sheepish when I try.  It is the equivalent of running around the block naked.  In other words, I feel mortified to "talk dirty," or ask for sex... .  etc.  I can enjoy it if he initiates, but I am mortified to ask, myself.  

Anyone else have these issues?   I am feeling like the only one out there.  I'm going to therapy, but we're JUST getting to some of the abuse and BPD mom-stuff.  I really appreciate the input from anyone who feels like I do... .  and if so, what you've done (if anything) to feel healthier about it all!  I love my fiance very much.  He's a great guy and I just want to fix myself so we can be healthy!  Thanks!

[LadyLuck]

I haven't had quite the same issues, but I understand the sex/love separation. There are some things to try; for many couples, it's easy to get lost in trying to cross the "finish line", even for people who have never had issues. It's easy for sex to become a game of "going through the motions". Personally, I find eye contact and words of love are very important, and more loving touches around the face. Sometimes even slowing down and trying not to achieve anything but closeness at first can heighten the intimacy and put the love back in lovemaking.

[Eeoye1]

WOW.  It was like reading my own thoughts.  I totally get this.  I am really new to this site and this was one of the first posts I read.  Sex = sex... .  love is seperate... or different.  I often find myself thinking when the bad thoughts float around my mind, when I think about past relationships that they lead me to believe 'they' (past boyfriends) only wanted me for sex.  That I have never been loved in my whole life, but I know I have. 

First, you have a great guy there... who sounds really understanding.  Thats awesome.  A kiss times a thousand is a great analogy. 

If you have experienced sexual abuse in your life this could be the root of this.  With the behavior of your mother compounding the feeings of being used.  If you did and if you were a child or a pre-teen it can result in a split in the idea of love and sex.  It sounds like you have completly split them in your mind.  Sex is being used.  Period.

I would suggest if you had been abused to try and explore that with your therapist, and hopefully you have a female therapist.  I'm not saying a man can't understand but its a bit smoother with a female.  Less embarrassing. (oh wait, I just realized I'm assuming youre female... sorry )  Anyway... same sex therapy for sexual abuse is advised.  It helps.  If you werent abused sexually directly, maybe your mother was?  I know mothers with BPD often discuss matters that are... .  innappropriate.  I know from experience.  Maybe the whole idea of sex became warped in your mind? 

Initiating sex is difficult, I know that!  What if they say NO!  It would be crushing.  Its a need... .  a question of what YOU want and children of people with BPD have their needs neglected.  Totally get it.

If you have explored exposure to sexual abuse maybe you didnt go far enough.  I was abused sexually and have intermittantly had to go back to it during therapy many times.  Certain situations have proved difficult and it crops up. 

But you are not alone.  I hear ya.  Sucks.  But it sounds like you have a good guy, who is patient and kind.  Another idea is... .  hmm... .  well... how can I say this... .  'self help'?  hehe.  Visualization is a proven technique.   

Anyway hope I helped feel youre not so alone.

M~

[Eeoye1]

Oh gosh I'm sorry, I did read the whole post, I wanted to re-check what I thought you said about sexual abuse and scanned your post, sorry. 

[Satori]

I'm pretty sure my mother is borderline, and I have similar feelings. I definitely have a libido, but I am very, very uncomfortable with sex and to be honest would just rather take care of any sexual feelings quickly in a dark room by myself, without anyone having to know, and then go take a very hot shower to wash it all off. I hope that doesn't sound crass. It feels very sad and lonely and icky.

Like you, I cannot ask for sex -- how humiliating! My husband went through a major depression during which he did not want sex for three and a half years, and I tolerated it without saying anything about it for two years.

I know something is horribly wrong, but I don't know what. I did feel violated by my mother and it did feel sexual, although as far as I know there was no sexual abuse. I've tried to figure out what it was about our relationship that felt so sexualized. Certainly she told me some very inappropriate things and I was bothered by the fact that she showed no modesty, wearing very skimpy clothes, walking around naked, undressing in front of me, etc. It feels pretty creepy and gross even typing this out.

[oliveihavenone]

I feel very similar.  Have a Ubpm with N tendencies but a codependent father.  I guess I had blocked this because I remember now being SO repulsed, but mom would walk around the house with nothing on bottom. Exposing herself on a nightly basis.  I'm married but feel absolutely no love from sex.  It's sex only and feel like its only for the guy.  Husband has complained jokingly before that I don't like to be touched.  He's right sometimes.  I remember ALWAYS being repulsed by my mothers touch.  But I was never sexually abused.  Thought provoking topic for me. Thanks.

[Rosegirl39]

I also have never liked being touched by my BPD mom.  It really bothers me.  

I never understood why.  I definitely have intimacy/sex issues with my husband that I am working on. Luckily he is very patient and things are improving. Maybe we feel this way because of being exposed to inappropriate things as children?  I don't remember any sexual abuse but I for sure witnessed and was told some things that I shouldn't have seen or heard.  It feels good to not be alone in this.

[OZtoAZ]

These posts are all soo immensely helpful!  Thank you SO much for writing.  Keep writing... .  it truly helps me understand what others are going through.

I apologize this is short tonight---and that I haven't written before today.  I was out sick with the flu for a week, and then I had to travel cross-country this week as there has been a death in the family. 

Will write more soon... .  but thank you for writing

[rescuenomore]

Hi OZtoAZ,

I can definitely relate to your story. In fact just a couple of days ago my husband and I were arguing about sex and his need to have it and my indifference and refusal.  It's not that I don't want it, sometimes it is like knitting, and I go through the motions but then he says it feels like I did it because I was 'forced'.  Other times I feel like I really just need more cuddles and loving instead.  I think my issue is related to intimacy and fear of it.  We've been together 10 years and have children but I push him away because I fear being hurt/lied to/manipulated etc.  Not that he does any of these things but my mother did and I guess I am trained to expect it of others.  A lot of times I say no, even when I probably would enjoy it, to create distance, I think.

I also have difficulty initiating sex when I am in the mood.  I have even found myself avoiding eye contact with my husband when I do feel like it.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe because I don't know what to do or I don't want to be vulnerable and be rejected.  Sometimes I just wait hoping he'll ask me.  I tend to put on the 'nothing affects me act'.  He has said in the past that during an argument I can seem quite cold, but the truth is it is just a protection mechanism after years of dealing with my uBPDm, and years of being punished if I expressed my true feelings.  I tend to fall back into that 'switching off' coping mechanism, which I guess includes sex, although I am getting better at trying not to.  Or just allowing myself some breathing space first.

My uBPDm also talked about sex as a kind of 'dirty' act.  She was quite liberated but would always go on about how men just use women for sex and treat them like sexual objects.  She tends to paint men black.  I have these tapes playing in my head and I've found it hard to just relax and enjoy myself during sex.  Like I'm on the lookout for some kind of ill treatment. Sure in the beginning things are great, and lots of that dutch courage helped !  But sometimes I feel like whenever my husband cuddles me it's never just a cuddle for cuddles sake, it's to initiate sex and I feel used.  And if he says anything about me looking sexy I feel really irritated because 'he just wants sex'... but then when he doesn't I feel unattractive.  Poor guy can't win!

[WrongWoman]

This has been a theme in my life... .  and I'm curious... .  

How many of you (women, most likely), suffered at the hand of a BPD and/or Narcissistic mother---and now have intimacy issues like what I describe?

This remains THE single biggest artifact of my upbringing by my uBPD mother.  She allowed me to be abused as a child by multiple men, always putting them and her "need" to hang onto them above any needs I might have had to be protected and safe.  I've spent years unraveling this in therapy, and I've reconciled most of it.

However, I am in a very loving marriage of 31 years and it has plagued me/us our whole married life.  The very beginning was very much as you describe the beginning of your relationship, but it waned fairly quickly.  I've had little interest or emotional attachment to sex.  Beyond some of the PTSD issues that I've dealt with, it's just not that interesting to me.  Physically = cheesecake, emotionally = knitting sounds just about right, especially as I have no interest in knitting ;-)

I began therapy again about two years ago to work on this very issue.  I love my husband and want him to know I love and adore him.  It makes me sad that I feel like something was robbed from me that cannot be replaced.  I am nearly 50 and he is nearly 60, but it seems like this is something we can perhaps still salvage.  We are both physically active and healthy.  He has never made demands on me, and frankly, I don't know if that has enabled me to not give much in this arena, or afforded me some peace.  Perhaps a little of both.

In any case, it has gotten better.  I find that when we spend time together, I can do quite well.  It's not something I can pull off on the fly, however.  He has busy times with his work and very slow times and during his very slow times, our frequency increases because our time spent together in general increases. 

Sex always feels like a risk to me.  I don't know why exactly, although there a dozen things I could look to for answers.  But when I am feeling safe (not just physically, but emotionally as well), I am more like to take risks, if that makes any sense.

[OZtoAZ]

These responses are just SOO helpful and validating to me.  I cannnnot tell you how much I appreciate the courage of those who are responding to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences.  I welcome each and every one of them that I am reading.

I started naming individual posters to say how much your posts of helped---and then I realized that I was including everyone!  So, EVERYONE... .  you really hit the nail on the head and thank you for these comments.  SO helpful in knowing I'm not the only one!

Anyone else is still welcome to reply. Apparently there are a number of us who really struggle with this important aspect of being a child of a BPD... .  and trying to have meaningful intimacy with our spouses, partners, SO's, etc.

[DreamGirl]

I have always struggled when it came to sex and love (from a little... .  to a lot).  I was also molested as a child and my father had Narcississtic tendecies - mostly in the fact that he kinda ignored the fact that he had children.  

I also think I went the other way - I was overly sexual and had blurry lines when it came to connecting with men thru sex thinking it was love (even if for a night). I was a promiscuous little thing and pregnant by the time I was 17.

Do you think shame plays a role in your struggles?

It does for me. A lot.  

Intimacy can be hard for me. And vulnerability. Just thinking it about makes the fear rise.

However, they are two factors that are really important characterstics in helping a marriage/relationship thrive.

I reference this article a lot:  

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

It discusses how BPD mothers struggle in different aspects of the mother/child attachment - and the sidebar discusses different characteristics that become apparent in the adulthood of children with BPD mothers:

1. Adults shamed as children are afraid of vulnerability and fear of exposure of the self

... .  

3. Adults shamed as children fear intimacy and tend to avoid real commitment in relationships. These adults frequently express the feeling that one foot is out of the door prepared to run.

... .  

11. Adults shamed as children often feel ugly, flawed and imperfect. These feelings regarding self may lead to focus on clothing and make-up in an attempt to hide flaws in personal appearance and self.

Jane Middleton-Moz

It think for me, thinking "well, hey it makes sense why I'm struggling here", helps me strengthen those parts of myself that need strengthening (not fixed, because I'm not broken!).

Have you considered some type of marriage/relationship counseling? It really helps to work on intimacy issues - I loved the small little tasks my husband and I were required to do to help us in this arena.

You're in this together - you and your fiance.

Learning new skills to strengthen this part of your relationship can actually be kinda fun - and sometimes hard when you're facing the FOO issues. But even your fiance understanding this about you can help the relationship.

I highly recommend it.  

[rescuenomore]

DreamGirl, thanks for that link.  I think I've read it before but it's amazing to look at it again (especially the ones you highlighted) and to feel like it was written for me !  Especially no 3.  Will definitely bookmark this one.

And thanks OZtoAZ for having the courage to start the thread.  It's been very thought provoking and validating for me also.

[Satori]

I just read an article on the development of sexuality that made me think of this thread. It was interesting on many different levels and also gave me some insight into how some of us came to have this problem with sexuality. I'd like to post a link to it and have not seen any rule that I can't -- moderator? For now I'll go ahead and post the link and hope that's okay. It's a fairly long article, but easy to read and well worth it, I thought.

www.recoverypath.ca/UserFiles/File/Acquring%20tastes.pdf

[thespacebetween]

The kicker is that when he has asked for/initiated sex, I have felt like saying "no" because I always interpreted sex as something that males expect---and that it's not about loving me, it's about the sex. In reality, I KNOW (and have always known) he loves me. He is very loving.   No doubt.  I just felt like he'd do a Dr. Jeckyl/Mr Hyde when he would ask for sex---because I felt like I trusted him that he loved me... .  but then he would try to initiate sex.  I'd then feel like it was a big bait-and-switch.   His request made me feel like we took 100 steps backwards!  I felt like saying, "I thought you loved me for ME... .  but you just wanted sex."  That's how I felt each time he'd ask.  Yet, I knew in my head that was not what he was doing--but it felt that way.

I feel like 100%.     I always have.  I always felt used for sex, always, and yet if I REALLY think about it, the men did not make me feel that way.   My husband has cheated on me in the past and that made it even more of an issue in our relationship.  We have had sex all of a handful of times in the last 4 yrs since his affairs.   

But even before him. I had issues. I found sex enjoyable, I wanted it, but never for the emotional connection. I find it hard to believe there IS an emotional connection, and if a man told me there was, I would assume he was lying.

And my story as far as my mom is similar... .  BPD with tons of narcisstic traits.

[thespacebetween]

I know something is horribly wrong, but I don't know what. I did feel violated by my mother and it did feel sexual, although as far as I know there was no sexual abuse. I've tried to figure out what it was about our relationship that felt so sexualized. Certainly she told me some very inappropriate things and I was bothered by the fact that she showed no modesty, wearing very skimpy clothes, walking around naked, undressing in front of me, etc. It feels pretty creepy and gross even typing this out.

I had the same thing, feel the same exact way.

[DogDancer]

OZtoAZ hello,

I am new to the boards, 46, mother with dxBPD deceased since I was 28, but with long-term effects on me and the the dynamics with my younger brothers. Oh, and dad is a recovering alcoholic. Whew! Quite a loaded deck we have.

Anyway, I have had intimacy problems -- a near lack of sexual interaction with my partner. However... .  as a surviver of BPD, I don't feel like this is me or my issue per se. I think it's that *he* suffered sexual molestation by his scout leader at 11, and has never healed from it.

I noticed that you are a sexual abuse survivor, too. I have no professional credential to back up what i am going to say, however... .  I have a strong feeling that it's probably *more* the sexual abuse that is stymieing you with your partner and connecting love/sex than it is your BPD mother. I could be wrong. And certainly, the likely situation where she invalidated you constantly didn't help with your self-esteem or healthy development on any level or area. HOWEVER... .  one of my dxBPD mother's MAIN harping points and obsessions with me was trying to prevent me from being sexual... .  with anyone... before marriage. Why? Because she had been and felt lousy about it, and was no longer feeling safe in her marriage since dad was unfaithful once. For which is punished him for the next FOURTEEN YEARS before they finally divorced. However, she had also been sexual as a teenager in the late 1950s, sneaking out of her house to meet a forbidden love (Af-Am no less!), so... .  this was a HUGE controlling point and obsession for her with me. She was really intrusive with me while I was in my teen years about sexuality as a result.

Amazingly, I am comfortable with sex and feelings, but, my partner for many years is not. We've never overcome this, and our relationship is platonic, devoid of sex now, which is causing major unhappiness. Perhaps a final break is on the horizon. The sexual chemistry was never strong between us, despite both of us being attractive people. I really *don't* think this is all -- or  mostly me -- and I don't think that it has much to do with my BPD mother. I really have come to believe that it has to do with his molestation; he's started but stopped therapy because his therapist was strongly pushing him to talk to his FOO about it to help heal, and he hasn't been able to take that step.

SO... .  I can't say for sure with you, but as a psychologist, you must now how damaging and disruptive that sexual abuse can be... .  I am fairly certain you must have worked on this already, perhaps extensively with your own T. BUT... .  maybe it's not resolved. Maybe you're ready to dive back in.

Whatever the case, I wish peace to you and continued healing,

DogDancer

[justine1984]

OZtoAZ, I must begin with saying that I am in fact a very sexual person, however I do understand where you're coming from and I can relate to it. For a very long time in my life I too have linked sex to being used, and moreover - having sex to just being a slut. There, I said it. The combination between that and having a huge libido led to huge guilt and beating myself up and feeling humiliated. It was a long journey for me until I could see that sex is normal, that wanting, asking for sex doesn't mean being a slut and that sex can exist without love or a relationship and I don't need to feel guilt for it.

What lead to this? First I was sexually abused at a very young age (I barely remember the moment, but I shed some light on it with the help of my T, I didn't even realize it was abuse before). Besides that I feel like my mom has in some way sexually abused me, if that makes any sense (I am a girl). She used to walk around the house naked in front of me and demanded the same lack of modesty of me as well. She became upset when I would cover myself up if she surprised me while changing clothes, so I quickly learned that I must not cover because she can get really mad - however, I felt humiliated and forced every time. She told me very inappropriate things at a very early age. She was so curious about what I am feeling and what guy I am attracted to, and whether I masturbate or not and a lot of other private things when I was a teenager. I didn't consciously feel the intrusion, but I had a dream once where she would kiss me with the tongue like a guy. It totally grossed me out and now I know this was my subconscious telling me I was abused.

Right now I can say I have some sexual disfunctions myself. In order for me to enjoy sex, there must be some element of humiliation. The same type of humiliation that I dread in real life and that I would kill to escape from.

I guess our childhood experiences take their tolls on us in different ways. You are not alone at all.

[mosaicbird]

My uBPDm also talked about sex as a kind of 'dirty' act.  She was quite liberated but would always go on about how men just use women for sex and treat them like sexual objects.  She tends to paint men black. 

Wow! That sounds just like my mother. I struggled with a lot of sex related shame issues in my early adulthood... .  it took me years to pull myself out from under her influence about sex, to stop feeling this deep sense of shame about sexual desire and intimacy. I still struggle with connecting emotion to sex, though, and relate to what some of you are saying about difficulties with intimate eye contact (vulnerability?).