accountability...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Just curious... .  I know that with BPD most with BPD feel that it's everyone's fault but their own. Accountability goes out the window as it's about playing the "victim". However, in your own experience being the non-BPD, have any one of your friends tried to hold your SO to accountability?

I was living overseas with BPD-wife coming back to the USA. I was tricked/lured back to the USA only to be served divorce papers 5 days after arrival. She posts pics all over Facebook now of this new adulterous relationship... .  there much more details, but EVERYTHING she has done is not only "wrong" to just about anyone with a brain, she is destroying our daughter's life as well. ie: Daughter is begging me to go back overseas so she can come too.  What amazes me is that many of our close mutual friends who know what's going on just don't hold my wife accountable. These are people that we've known for years, done some serious life with, have picked up on things about my wife from time to time, and now all I get is a pat on the back and a sympathetic, "I'm so sorry you are going through this." I'm sorry, but if I saw any one of my friends posting pics on FB with someone other than their SO I'm going to confront you. Not be nasty about it, but sometimes people think they can get away with stuff and not be held accountable. Why is it my job? Because I believe if you truly call someone your friend you love them enough to point out something that can potentially destroy themselves and those around them. Complacency, not wanting to get involved, none of my business mentality... .  how is that truly being a friend?

Now maybe for some of you your SO has everyone fooled with the damage campaign that seems to preceed, but truth always has an ugly way of coming out in the end... .  ALWAYS! So when the truth comes out has there every been a case where friends or family have confronted the BPD and what has been the result?

[spratrbo]

Just curious... .  I know that with BPD most with BPD feel that it's everyone's fault but their own. Accountability goes out the window as it's about playing the "victim". However, in your own experience being the non-BPD, have any one of your friends tried to hold your SO to accountability?

I was living overseas with BPD-wife coming back to the USA. I was tricked/lured back to the USA only to be served divorce papers 5 days after arrival. She posts pics all over Facebook now of this new adulterous relationship... .  there much more details, but EVERYTHING she has done is not only "wrong" to just about anyone with a brain, she is destroying our daughter's life as well. ie: Daughter is begging me to go back overseas so she can come too.  What amazes me is that many of our close mutual friends who know what's going on just don't hold my wife accountable. These are people that we've known for years, done some serious life with, have picked up on things about my wife from time to time, and now all I get is a pat on the back and a sympathetic, "I'm so sorry you are going through this." I'm sorry, but if I saw any one of my friends posting pics on FB with someone other than their SO I'm going to confront you. Not be nasty about it, but sometimes people think they can get away with stuff and not be held accountable. Why is it my job? Because I believe if you truly call someone your friend you love them enough to point out something that can potentially destroy themselves and those around them. Complacency, not wanting to get involved, none of my business mentality... .  how is that truly being a friend?

Now maybe for some of you your SO has everyone fooled with the damage campaign that seems to preceed, but truth always has an ugly way of coming out in the end... .  ALWAYS! So when the truth comes out has there every been a case where friends or family have confronted the BPD and what has been the result?

[hithere]

Friends and family might be afraid of her... .  I know my exBPD's friends and family had a healthy fear.

Beyond that, I don't know.  Most people if they don't know her well are probably not going to condemn her without having more knowledge and even then I think most people are apathetic, they have their own problems and are not looking to take on anyone else's.

[briefcase]

It's a legitimate question, but it's always hard to say why other people do, or don't do, things.  Maybe they want to stay out of it, maybe they are afraid to confront her, maybe they think its for the best that your relationship with her end, maybe they are afraid you two will get back together and they will be left out on a limb.  Hard to say.

It sounds like she has put you through the ringer by luring you back to the U.S. only to serve you and then flaunt a new relationship.  Painful stuff.  What is your plan for going forward? What are your current thoughts on whether you want to try to reconcile, or move forward without her?

 

[tuum est61]

Can any person - spouse, family member, friend - or the legal system for that matter - hold anyone accountable for actions that aren't illegal/criminal?

I used to hope for such accountability enacted by others but after seeing it wasn't happening, it occurred to me just how unfair it is to expect others to carry the burden of MY pwBPD.   If you or your children are being unduly impacted by your SO's BPD, there's only one person that can make the changes to mitigate those impacts - you.  

So my question is the same as briefcase's  - what actions will you take to take care of yourself and your daughter?

[spratrbo]

Well after a 2 hour conversation tonight with a mutual friend of mine and my wife I can answer what I am thinking of doing, but just going to wait a little bit before I go pulling the trigger.

In that conversation we spoke about the future and what I was going to do. Let me also back up a little and also explain that I was finally able to reach my daughter that I haven't spoken to in 2 weeks... .  I suspect my wife was withholding her from me. BTW she's almost 17. She is BEGGING me to go back to Australia and make a place for us. I am inclined to do this, but I am also afraid for her. 12 years ago we (wife, daughter and I) watched wife's mother "go nuts" as she built up this idea that we were going to take her granddaughter away from her when daughter finally graduated. We questioned her saying, "What are you talking about? Ofcourse you will see her... .  " but in-law built it up in her mind. (BTW- now that I recognize BPD I believe wife's mother has this as well.) As that final year progressed things got much worse to the point where we had to cut her off as she put the Kung-Foo grip on us. I am now watching my wife do the same to our daughter putting a tight grip on her because she knows in a year when daughter turns 18, my wife will no longer have control. So what she has been doing lately is lay so much guilt on our daughter... .  we're still over a year away, so I fear that even if I were to leave back for Australia, my daughter would be left here defenseless with everything getting much worse. The courts are not able to do a thing at this point and even my attorney is saying my daughter has no rights at this stage.  So I'm in a tough place... .  daughter wants me to go back now so she can finish school there, but I don't think I can legally. But if I stay my daughter will be crushed here between the school system which she is unhappy with and my wife. But if I go, I don't see my wife will releasing her, and then daughter's self-esteem is crushed.  While I could technically get a replacement passport for my daughter and we could both go, I'm not comfortable with the message this sends to my daughter.  So it's a very difficult place I am in.

As far as our friend holding wife accountable... she told me tonight she has tried to walk very carefully around her knowing a confrontation might cut all lines of communication. But lately when wife has called friend, wife ALWAYS talks about what is going on with her life, is almost frantic, doesn't allow friend to really interject, and then ends conversation. I'm finding this is typical of BPD.

Friend tonight feels I should go back to Australia... .  I am inclined to as I know I can recover financially much much quicker there. Plus I was happier there. But I am not comfortable just leaving my daughter back in the USA even if my daughter is insisting on me going back. I think she will get swallowed up by her mother with guilt and while she wants to go back now, would not come back to AU for the sake of pleasing her mother. My intention for my meeting with her tomorrow is to finally break it to her I believe her mother to have BPD. I have the book "Understanding the Borderline Mother" and hope she will read it. She doesn't know who her mother is anymore. Is all this a good idea? Any thoughts on how to put it to my daughter?

Our mutual friend seems to think that if I resolve the chaos by handing her the divorce and basically going away, by re establishing myself and being that solid foundation she seems to think my wife will eventually come back around after her adulterous relationship crashes. I said I think it will be easier to move on and find another guy than come back to me even if we've been together 14 years, because to come back to me would force her to deal with herself. And BPD people very rarely do that. Plus I keep hearing that absence make the heart grow colder in these people... not fonder. I don't know... .  friend reminded me that over a year ago wife was crying in her car talking about how much she loved me. And maybe the saving grace is I am our daughter's father. I just don't know. Any thoughts?

[tuum est61]

Could you clarify how it is that your daughter is nearly 17, yet you and your W have been together for 14 years?  

[thefisherman]

If you haven't already, get a lawyer.  Most have free consultations.  Ask for them to lay out a plan of how to proceed.  Identify what is most important to you.  Have reasonable expectations.  The "status quo" is the most likely outcome in terms of custody.  Pick one and get moving quickly.

Things that seem important to me:

Was the move to the US intended to be permanent?  Documents to support otherwise?

Where is/was your daughter last registered for school? 

How long was she in school in AU vs US?

Does your wife work?  Does she make a decent living? (support)

Do you want to reconcile from the affair?  (proceed w/ the divorce as though the divorce is what will happen regardless)

A custody order can be filed BEFORE divorce is settled.  That seems to me to be the only hope of getting your daughter to finish school in AU.

You may already be talking to a therapist about all this.  If not, find one... .  hopefully familiar with BPD and affairs.  There's a discussion board on the website talkaboutmarriage.com on handling affairs.  (People there referred me here)  I think they could help you better wrap your head around handling the affair and fixing/ending your marriage.  The BPD plays into it for sure but it seems to me your daughter and the disposition of your marriage are bigger than just the BPD.

They will suggest you confront the other man in some fashion. Maybe he is married too?  Contact his wife... .  be as kind as possible but she should know if she doesn't.   If not, maybe he has a mother who would be very disappointed?  I know that may sound mean, but they both are in a fog.  Someone needs to show them reality.  Is your wife's father still alive?  What is your wife's relationship with him?  Maybe he can help?  If she is openly posting information about the other man, I would expect you can track him down very quickly. You know the situation best, perhaps you contact him directly?   It seems likely to me that the affair was ongoing before she filed for divorce.  And I do not think she has shared that relationship with her lawyer... .  he would tell her to END IT until after the divorce is final. Collect and save EVERYTHING you can.  Don't make angry posts to her facebook page... .  just collect info.  Print everything and give your lawyer a copy.  Give the other man's wife/mom a copy.   My point is, there are things you can do to encourage the affair to end and protect yourself.  Affairs don't usually affect divorce very much other than the people involved in the affair not wanting the information to come out.  And it should end.  You are still married.

Good luck.

[spratrbo]

 tuum est61:  The difference in age and relationship is because my daughter is biologically from my wife's first marriage. However I have been in her life since she was 2 and LEGALLY she is mine. I have gone through the process of getting the biological father clipped and LEGALLY I am her father. Meaning, on her birth certificate I am it, so there is absolutely no question as to what rights I have.

thebagguy:  I was lured here with the intention of reconciliation. I have all the emails that make it plainly clear. I sold everything to come back and paid a lot of money to do so. Now my wife is wanting all that money plus some more, to which there is none left. As far as the affair goes... .  I know exactly who this is and have known him for years. It is an old HS friend and have met him from time to time. I also believe he is the one that co-signed the lease with my wife as we just got through bankruptcy. There is no way she could do it on her own. I also have emails from a counselor she was seeing asking if we had money for a psychiatrist as my wife, ":)oesn't have a grasp of reality."   As far as my wife's parents go... .  father is completely detached (part of the BPD causes) and mother, who I believe is ALSO BPD!, is encouraging this adulterous relationship. It's pretty sick! And my daughter is ready to cut them all off from the crazyness. I finally got to speak with her yesterday for the first time in a month and she is BEGGING me to just take her back to Australia. She wants out.

We were in AU for 3 years. And technically my daughter is still an AU resident as she hasn't been here for 6 months. Wife works and makes good money. Reconcile... .  yes, but with the condition she gets help big time.

[thefisherman]

There is something amiss here.

Your daughter wants to be with you.  She is 17.  Why don't you go get her?  Whether you are in Australia or not... .  go get her.

[spratrbo]

My daughter is with her mother right now and going to school... .  begrudgingly. Because 18 is the age of consent in the state we are, and because my daughter doesn't turn 18 until a year from this month, in a way she is technically stuck. And what I just explained to her yesterday, based on what I saw her grandmother do years ago, it's going to get worse the closer we get to her 18th b-day as her mother's fear of abandonment sets in. However if we were able to get to AU mother would have no recourse as the age of adulthood is 17 there.

As far as confronting this guy... .  I have thought about it, but I also am thinking it could create a very bad scenario. Write this guy's mother? Maybe... .  but the whole family could in turn say "he's an adult and has to deal with his own consequences." And my wife's mother is THRILLED for this adulterous relationship as it means her daughter and granddaughter are near since the guy she's having this relationship is from the same po-dunk small town. It's an UNREAL and sick amount of selfishness. And in the meantime I watch my daughter's self esteem slowly diminish with her mother in denial.