Anger and forgiveness--your thoughts?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'm currently in a phase of my healing where I am out of the confusion/beating myself up/major sadness into the contently working on myself stage (calling it "dating myself"  ),  and have reached a different place with negotiating my reflective feelings of what happened in my r/s.  I go back and forth between anger at the crap I put up with and was given, at being treated so poorly with resolve to never let it happen again (like many folks, I usually don't with my r/s's, but this one was different) AND forgiving her for her illness.  While neither is 100% "the answer" and each part is valid, my brain's vascillations between these two states and another thread by Angel made me wonder where others are with this.

Are you pissed off at your ex and happy to stay there?

Forgive them for being ill?

Neither?  Both?

[Elsegundo]

I'm currently in a phase of my healing where I am out of the confusion/beating myself up/major sadness into the contently working on myself stage (calling it "dating myself"  ),  and have reached a different place with negotiating my reflective feelings of what happened in my r/s.  I go back and forth between anger at the crap I put up with and was given, at being treated so poorly with resolve to never let it happen again (like many folks, I usually don't with my r/s's, but this one was different) AND forgiving her for her illness.  While neither is 100% "the answer" and each part is valid, my brain's vascillations between these two states and another thread by Angel made me wonder where others are with this.

Are you pissed off at your ex and happy to stay there?

Forgive them for being ill?

Neither?  Both?

[happiness68]

Elsee - great to hear that you're out of the dark place.  Of course you will reflect.  I believe people with BPD reflect too and realise what's happened, but when it's too late.  I feel angry sometimes, but not often.  I've only been out of my relationship for about 2 1/2 months.  I'm not p***ed off at my ex because I feel the way I do.  I feel more angry at myself if anything for letting myself get like that and not realising before that he was suffering from BPD.  Do I forgive him for being ill?  Yes, yes, I do.  I do because I love him.  I now pity him partly, because of what he must be going through.  I believe that people with BPD suffer far more than the nons - they must be in a living hell.  I could be wrong on all this.  It's just my opinion.

I'm currently in a phase of my healing where I am out of the confusion/beating myself up/major sadness into the contently working on myself stage (calling it "dating myself"  ),  and have reached a different place with negotiating my reflective feelings of what happened in my r/s.  I go back and forth between anger at the crap I put up with and was given, at being treated so poorly with resolve to never let it happen again (like many folks, I usually don't with my r/s's, but this one was different) AND forgiving her for her illness.  While neither is 100% "the answer" and each part is valid, my brain's vascillations between these two states and another thread by Angel made me wonder where others are with this.

Are you pissed off at your ex and happy to stay there?

Forgive them for being ill?

Neither?  Both?

[waitaminute]

Sometimes I have imaginary conversations with her in which I'm angry... .  angry that with all the damage our rs caused, she had no respect for the sacrifices that were made for her. And angry that now she will suffer as she pays for the consequences of her behavior.

But I forgive always. In fact she asked for my forgiveness during "closure". And I told her what I had told her several times before about forgiveness... .  It is gift to oneself. Not forgiving is like allowing a worm to eat my soul. Do I forgive her? ... .  Of course I do.

It is unfortunate for her that she views forgiving as a gift to those who she feels wronged her. And so for revenge or just to satisfy her hard heart, she usually withholds forgiveness... .  from her mother, father, sisters, exbfs.

We are from different cultures so I do not know if this different view of forgiveness is cultural or personal. And I recognize that each case is different. I'm in a better place with a normal loving woman since I left Ms BPD. That might play into my willingness to forgive too.

[hithere]

I go back and forth between anger at the crap I put up with... .  AND forgiving her for her illness

Pretty much what you have written above.  But now that I have moved on (I got engaged last month) it is just a happy medium of both of those.  I don't think I can ever completely forgive her or myself because the pain was just too great.  Really it is about focusing on the future, all the good things I have in my life and being thankful I am not stuck in the BPD prison anymore.

[Elsegundo]

It's interesting:  I speny time being mad at myself first for things I did in the r/s and tkaing so much.  I had a hard time getting angry at her BECAUSE of her BPD.  Now, I think it's important for healing to be mad, but not stay there. 

I love the notes on forgiveness, and that being an internal gift.  So true.

I also love the idea of imaginary conversations. 

[Newton]

Hi Elsee     It's a great topic you've raised and I think highlights a key aspect of part how we detach and move forward... .  It was discussed quite recently in a really thought provoking thread here and "forgiveness" seems to be a common theme on L3... .  I hold the opinion that it's a question of semantics... .  

This concept of 'forgiving' our partners does seem a moot point to me... .  the word is a little too emotionally loaded IMO and can sometimes translate to us as perhaps thinking we are letting someone "get away" with their awful treatment of us... .  or once again we are giving our ex's something by forgiving them... .  (haven't we done enough of that!)

My current thinking is that ... .  forgiveness=processing and working through our own emotions of anger, betrayal, guilt, resentment, humiliation, shock, disbelief etc... .  understanding the dynamic of what happened and our role in it... .  then arriving at a point of acceptance (acceptance is about OUR thoughts and feelings).

Acceptance frees us... .  ie/ terrible things happened to me... .  this is how I feel/felt about those events... .  I am now striving to move forward and leave that behind with x,y,z behaviour... .  

For me... .  forgiveness still seems to be focusing on them... .  not us.

Yes, I experienced an ex who was exhibiting behaviour that many would consider to be hallmarks of severe mental illness... .  yes I participated in that relationship, yes being in that dynamic really hurt... .  REALLY hurt, yes I now have a desire to look after myself better and not participate in that relationship anymore... .  

I don't really feel a need to forgive her... .  I just need to work through and let go of my negative feelings about the relationship and accept it for what it was... .  

[Tausk]

Hi Elsee   *

This concept of 'forgiving' our partners does seem a moot point to me... .  the word is a little too emotionally loaded IMO and can sometimes translate to us as perhaps thinking we are letting someone "get away" with their awful treatment of us... .  or once again we are giving our ex's something by forgiving them... .  (haven't we done enough of that!)

My current thinking is that ... .  forgiveness=processing and working through our own emotions of anger, betrayal, guilt, resentment, humiliation, shock, disbelief etc... .  understanding the dynamic of what happened and our role in it... .  then arriving at a point of acceptance (acceptance is about OUR thoughts and feelings).

Acceptance frees us... .  ie/ terrible things happened to me... .  this is how I feel/felt about those events... .  I am now striving to move forward and leave that behind with x,y,z behaviour... .  

For me... .  forgiveness still seems to be focusing on them... .  not us.

I don't really feel a need to forgive her... .  I just need to work through and let go of my negative feelings about the relationship and accept it for what it was... .  

I agree. It's semantics, but forgiveness is difficult.  Poster "2010" has  a really good thread on the destructiveness of forced forgiveness.  But I do need compassion for my ex and the disorder.  Compassion for me means,  the awareness of the limitations due to the disorder, the pain that it causes in her and others, and the desire/wish to do something to ease the suffering.  

I don't forgive my ex because she has never asked for forgiveness.  She has never accepted responsibility.  She has never tried to make any altruistic amends.  She has never apologized.  I know that it's because such actions are beyond the capacity of my ex wBPD.  But nonetheless, unless the above actions are engaged, I don't think I will forgive.  But I try to accept and keep compassion in my heart for her as well all others.  

And my compassion for my ex means that the most positive and benefitial action that I can provide to her is the have NO CONTACT.  It's sad but true.  She can't process the complexities of who we were, so I just need to stay away and hope she finds self awareness (not going to happen) or at least survives (suicide or murder/suicide are more likely.)

But I must forgive myself.   And as I begin to understand the interaction, I realize that it was my shortcomings that were just as responsible for the destruction as my ex's disorder.   I was not a victim.  I was a volunteer.  Resentment, anger, and fear are a triangle of self obession that keeps me in victim mentality, which means I will never grow.  So, I try and replace these with acceptance, love and faith, and choose to look at myself deeply.  I try and remember and recite often, that none of my current pain has anything to do with my ex, what she did, what she is doing... .  It's about me and my shortcomings.

So eventually I will have to ask forgiveness of myself and then I have to spiritually ask forgiveness of my ex for my actions that were destruction.  And then I will be able to forgive myself for not being perfect, and then I can present the real me instead of the false ego to the world.  

this is my goal.

in support

SP

[seeking balance]

Fantastic Topic

Are you pissed off at your ex and happy to stay there?

I did go through a period of this and I think it is a necessary part of healing.  I have suggested to others "take a bath with your anger, feel it".  As long as it is not destructive anger.  Venting needlessly over being wronged or being negative about a mentally ill person only holds onto it - I found getting it out in more physical exercise to be a healthier option.  Eventually, the anger will burst and hurt will be felt - anger is the mask for hurt.

Forgive them for being ill?

this was  bit easier for me - I had read the book The Shack and a component is about forgiveness.  I had a hard time forgiving friends that didn't "pick my side" though.  And I was quite pissed at God for a bit also.

Once I accepted mental illness, I was able to let go of the destructive acts by ex for the most part.

Neither?  Both?

What I can say these days is that I still have moments of hurt - typically this is when I may feel lonely or scared.  Anger is a buffer for other hard feelings - and it serves a good purpose.

Peace,

SB

[Newton]

Hi SP  ... .  is it possible you could pm me the link for the 2010 post you referred to re: "forced forgiveness"... .  I've read most, but that one appears to have eluded me ... .  I imagine, as per the norm... .  it will have jaw dropping insight!

I hope I'm staying relatively close to the original thread topic here of "forgiveness" (If not can a red badged sheriff please inform otherwise and move it)... .    ... .  so a question to you... .  

"... .  none of my current pain has anything to do with my ex"... .  really?

[johnnyonthespot]

I appreicated Newton's observations on forgiveness vs acceptance.

Personally I beleive I am already accepting of the broken relationship, and of all that happened... .  but I definitely do not forgive her. And although I am not angry in my day-to-day life, when I conduct imaginary conversations with her I am still very angry.

And even though I've learned about her disorsder (or collection of traits), it doesn't help my anger. If anything, it augments it. Because there is treatment, and because people do get better if so motivated.

Not all wounds are self-inflicted. Depending on the depth of the wound, and personae of the victim, forgiveness may not always be possible.

[spaceace]

I am angry at myself for allowing this separation to happen again. What I mean is, in May we separated, and we did little together to heal the break, and did nothing towards working on the marriage. It feels like I merely convinced her to come back, and she did, only to experience her leave again in November.

I am angry at myself because I was afraid back in May to push too hard and get real answers why we split in the first place. I was just happy we were working on getting back together.

If there is anything to be angry about and forgive, I think it's within myself. I need to forgive myself and stop beating the you know what out of myself because I honestly loved, trusted and believed my wife as we started our journey together again.

I jumped back in to it with eyes wide shut. How can I really blame her for my actions or be mad at her for my actions? And what can I forgive her for doing to me? I was pretty confident in May she has udBPD traits. And I did little to either work with her, or do something to progress our marriage and really address our issues, and there is little to hold her accountable for. She is now behaving the same way she always has from what I can tell.

[Tausk]

I try to remember that anger is an emotion.  It is neither good nor bad.  No judgement, it just is.  It's how i respond to anger that determines whether I am in recovery or in the disorder.   So I try to use my anger to remember how destructive the interaction truly was, and how I'll never permit that type of abuse to me again.  And I use that anger to fuel change in myself and to force myself into self reflection.   And I use the anger to insure that I keep NO Contact.

But I have to process the anger eventually, or I will just stay in that mode.  We all know of people who are addicted to anger and use it continuously as a tool to avoid self awareness and self responsibility.  My favorite is anger at the cops because they pulled me over for drunk driving.  The logic there is similar to my anger with my ex for recycling me for endless number of times.  It's not her fault.  It's all she knows.  I'm the one who supposedly doesn't have a disorder.  I'm supposed to be a "non."  I should have said "no" at the third, or fourth, or fifth... .  umpteenth transgression.

When I look honestly at my actions and responsibility, then the anger turns inward.  But then I do my best at working at the other parts of recovery.  And then I can begin to ask for forgiveness of my self.  I ask forgiveness of myself now.  And I can ask that now because I know that my pain is due to my shortcomings from my core wounds.  

Basically:

Why did I choose to be with someone disordered.  Why did I accept abuse.  Why did I go back for more and more a more.  Why didn't I get out.  Why can't I let go.  Why do I ruminate and still have arguments and fantasies that she'll get better.  Why am i scared that my happiness is dependent on her?   Why don't I think that I deserve better?  Why did I trust my heart and soul to a person whose behavior is equivalent to that of a sociopath?

When I look at my core wounds and start healing them, then the answers to the above "whys" start to become clear.  And then my pain and anger can start to dissipate.  

[bpdspell]

I'm currently in a phase of my healing where I am out of the confusion/beating myself up/major sadness into the contently working on myself stage (calling it "dating myself"  ),  and have reached a different place with negotiating my reflective feelings of what happened in my r/s.  I go back and forth between anger at the crap I put up with and was given, at being treated so poorly with resolve to never let it happen again (like many folks, I usually don't with my r/s's, but this one was different) AND forgiving her for her illness.  While neither is 100% "the answer" and each part is valid, my brain's vascillations between these two states and another thread by Angel made me wonder where others are with this.

Are you pissed off at your ex and happy to stay there?

Forgive them for being ill?

Neither?  Both?

Anger is usually a mask for hurt and pain. When we've experienced injustice anger seems to be the face that we are most comfortable with. But for quality emotional health it better serves us to take the mask off when we're ready. When you decide to explore what lies beneath the mask I believe is where the opportunity for true healing to begin.

Your feelings of vacillation are quite normal. It may sound cliche but eventually time will help to settle your mixed emotions, thoughts and angst about what you've experienced in this BPD relationship.

Everyone is different in terms of anger and forgiveness and forgiveness means many things to different people.

I see anger and rage as a prison trap. It keeps you stuck in a narrow abyss of mistrust, discomfort and trapped in heavy weighing emotional baggage.

As for forgiveness I couldn't forgive my ex until I forgave the original source of pain: my mother. My ex was an emotional replica of my mother and facing the hurtful shameful parts of my childhood that I'd been avoiding my entire life released me from the rage I felt towards my BPDexbf. It took about a year and a half for me. Again forgiveness it isn't a race to the finish line it's a gradual process of letting go and surrendering to the hope that the past could have been any different.

I also forgive my ex in terms of compassion because he's sick. In my case I take into consideration all that he had to go through to survive as a child with drug addicted neglectful and bone selfish narcissistic parents. They abandoned him to get HIGH. They spent their money on drugs and alcohol. My ex often had to be fed by neighbors in order to not go hungry. My BPDexbf was also sexually molested by adult women. His parents never protected him and he practically raised himself. No. BPD is not an excuse to treat someone cruel but I can forgive my ex because his childhood was literally the pits.

Yes. The ex treated me pretty badly in the devaluation phase but after a while holding on to the victim role proved to be very damaging to my psyche. I was victimized during that phase but I am not a victim!

Forgiveness lastly but most importantly is the gift you give to yourself. I forgave myself for not being a better judge of character, I forgive myself for accepting my ex's poor treatment of me. I forgive myself for not loving and respecting myself. I forgive myself for believing that it was the job of others to love me to wholeness.

Spell

[Elsegundo]

Oh, Spell.  How I find resonance and comfort in a few things you said.  I actually think my ex is a like my mother and wounds from childhood too! Incidentally, when I started the break up process w ex, I found I needed to distance myself from my mom too.  I initially thought it was bc ex and I talked about making a family, whereupon I thought about the hurts subjected to my siblings and I and I got upset that a mother would allow those things to occur.  For many years I thought my mom did the best she could go, and knew to do better than what she had, but my anger has come later (similar to my pattern w ex). 

I also love your statements if forgiveness.  Especially that your last line, forgiving yourself for having someone else try to make you whole. Aaaaaa-mennnnnn!  Yes, in the positive there-for-oneself way, and yes! For the self that knows it has to be whole on its own. 

[Elsegundo]

And also, SB and SP and spaceace, and actually each person who has replied--thank you!  Finding resonance and nuggets on forgiveness and anger that are making my spirit feel a sense of healing. 

[myself]

Some anger, mostly sadness. Watching the plans and dreams fade out while still in love. While hurting very deeply, too. I'm a pretty forgiving person and I sure proved it during all of our recycles. I meant it each time, I just wasn't thinking as clearly as I could have, needing to watch out for myself more. Meaning: What is best for Me. Without that, any relationship I'm in will add my extra share of problems. Coming through what I have been recently? I'm not angry at either one of us, and I've forgiven us both as well.

[wheredidugo]

Being angry only holds you in that unwanted, unhappy spot longer. Forgive them, for your own sake. I believe that the person suffering with BPD probably suffers worse than the nons. You are now out of that situation, they are not and might never be. Forgiving them will help you to move on. Also, forgive yourself.

"Wrong me once, shame on you. Wrong me twice, shame on me."

[armsreach]

I was pissed off. For a long time. This was a few years ago, before I knew anything about a PD, all I knew was that I was pissed off. I got to a place where I wasn't so angry anymore, and really was only in the relationship "for the kids."  I went through the motions, but began to emotionally separate from the r/s.  After a couple of major blowouts with my stbxh (uBPD), I found out more about BPD and pd in general. I have learned a lot and mostly just feel sad now. I am mourning what I thought we had together, what I thought could have been, and feeling sad for the scared little boy inside of him who can't/won't even try to get help or talk to a professional. But, I am learning a lot about myself too, which is good. I learned I cannot save him, and I am not obligated to take care of him.  My anger is almost all gone. I've forgiven him and am working on forgiving myself.

Great topic, btw!

[just me.]

I think this is a good topic, and it's something that continues to be prominent in my miserable situation with my exBPDw (NC is not a possibility because we have two little children).

Like others, though, I do not necessarily agree with the term "forgiveness" in this context.  To me, the dichotomy is this:

1)  The exPWBPD can be viewed as sick - and their actions therefore must be judged outside of the context of what we basically consider morality and decency.

2)  The exPWBPD can be viewed just as a person - in which case their actions may very well be beyond reprehensible, and utterly infuriating.

I feel as though "forgiveness" applies to neither of these perspectives.  In the first case, it's like saying you "forgive" your cat for being a cat (rather than the dog you wanted).  In the second case, they typically don't do or say any of the things that would ever warrant your forgiveness... .  and to simply "forgive" their mistreatment of you is almost a discredit to your understanding that you deserved better.

I presently go back and forth between the two, which confuses my exBPDw and makes co-parenting difficult.  The challenge I face is not to forgive her, but to someday see her as sick (rather than detestable) all the time.  I know it's true... .  but still, to experience a real human being more awful and hurtful than even seems possible seems to inevitably generate anger.  I don't know if I'll ever overcome that.  Gosh, I hope so.

[SeekerofTruth]

Still dazed and confused.  Mainly fearful of my own response of not being my best, or limited in some regard due to my own inner contagion.

Some compassion at times.  When "compassion" became an operative word, I began to get better, because I knew in order to have authentic compassion for someone suffering... .  you need to come from a place of inner compassion for yourself as well.  That's when the light switched on.

anger---hidden underneath, with lots of love on top--- but comes out with a "firmness" and "serious" tone when the BS begins... .  needing to learn how to soften, be gentle... .  say in gently.  Be nice. UGG

HATE--- coming out, alone late at night, over the holidays... .  allowed my self to say it and express it to the walls and in the mirror (and see what my face on rage looks like--- trust me, I wouldn't mess with that dude)

Forgiveness... .  (tabled for now) ah like piano said... .  getting to ACCEPTANCE of it all... .  is where I will be seeking my liberation and empowerment.

[birdlady]

This question of forgiveness makes me think.  First, forgiveness is a matter of the will, not the heart IMO.  So being willing to forgive is the first step.  It is okay if the feelings aren't there. Don't force the feelings.  But if you want to forgive and are willing to forgive, do it for your own sake, not for theirs.

Here's my story and where i am in the forgiveness. In my case my stbexh has a replacement he is in love with.  I was dumped for her.  I know for an absolute fact that she willingly and knowingly dated another woman's husband. I pray for them and forgive them so that the anger doesn't fester and destroy me.  I do not do it for them because it is clear that they care not a whit about my feelings.  They have not apologized, nor asked for forgiveness.  As long as I got out of my stbexh's life and cleared the way for their "true love", that's all that matters to them.  So anything I forgive is strictly for me.

I still have feelings.  I still feel some anger, and i still feel some hurt.  I will honor those feelings and let them subside in their own time.  I'm still grieving the loss of the pets and of some things I had to leave behind.  I still grieve the pain of being tossed aside like a piece of garbage.  I accept the things that hurt and am giving myself permission to feel with the intent to heal. 

I am NC except through attorneys.  He sometimes emails me.  I blocked both of them on Facebook.  I intend to never see him or the house we shared for so many years again.  That seems strange in one way but I believe it is for the best.

So forgiveness is just part of moving on.  I need to move on and build a life that he is not a part of.  I don't miss the drunken tirades, the physical abuse, or always being wrong no matter how hard I tried.  Forgiveness?  In the light of the way I was treated, I probably should be thanking them for freeing me from my abuser.