He'll never be "okay."

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

 I used to think metal illness and being around it was like talking to the obviously crazy person mumbling to themself on the corner, but after conversations like these (I've had em too) its more insidous than that.  It can be in the everyday, make no sense kind of things too.  Which is seriously messed up because even the simplest things are get affected.  And if a person can't handle the simplest stuff you know it doesn't bode well for everything else.

So true.  In fact, after waking up one day - ELEVEN years ago - and realizing I was in the middle of complete insanity, I, of course, asked myself "how in the he! did I get here?"

Well, crazy doesn't show up on your doorstep in full blown crazy mode. If it did, none of us would be here!  It's disguised in every day people who can appear very normal and functional on the outside.  Then, little by little, like the growth of a weed, the behaviors surface and they contradict what we've believed to be true about that person.  Next thing you know, you have a full grown weed patch and all of your flowers are dead.

See here I'm thinking about that saying 'we are the company we keep' or 'misery loves company'. It sounds like that used to be true but you've changed so much (and he hasn't) you are no longer willing to be that company. 

And another favorite:  "If you lie down with dogs, you'll get fleas!"  When I was young, I never understood this.  Boy, do I get it now.  Very rarely do you drag someone up to your level, they almost always drag you down to theirs.

Your thread is making me want to do a list of all good things I learned being around a person like this.  I shudder to think if I never got these lessons (even though some were incredibly painful).

I've kept a grateful journal for over a year now.  Every day, I am faithful to list 5 things I am grateful for and MANY of them are good things I have learned as a direct result of being around a person like this.  And yes... .  many of those things I learned were incredibly painful.  I want to make sure I learn it and learn it well because I have no interest in repeating this kind of experience!

[turtle]

 I used to think metal illness and being around it was like talking to the obviously crazy person mumbling to themself on the corner, but after conversations like these (I've had em too) its more insidous than that.  It can be in the everyday, make no sense kind of things too.  Which is seriously messed up because even the simplest things are get affected.  And if a person can't handle the simplest stuff you know it doesn't bode well for everything else.

So true.  In fact, after waking up one day - ELEVEN years ago - and realizing I was in the middle of complete insanity, I, of course, asked myself "how in the he! did I get here?"

Well, crazy doesn't show up on your doorstep in full blown crazy mode. If it did, none of us would be here!  It's disguised in every day people who can appear very normal and functional on the outside.  Then, little by little, like the growth of a weed, the behaviors surface and they contradict what we've believed to be true about that person.  Next thing you know, you have a full grown weed patch and all of your flowers are dead.

See here I'm thinking about that saying 'we are the company we keep' or 'misery loves company'. It sounds like that used to be true but you've changed so much (and he hasn't) you are no longer willing to be that company. 

And another favorite:  "If you lie down with dogs, you'll get fleas!"  When I was young, I never understood this.  Boy, do I get it now.  Very rarely do you drag someone up to your level, they almost always drag you down to theirs.

Your thread is making me want to do a list of all good things I learned being around a person like this.  I shudder to think if I never got these lessons (even though some were incredibly painful).

I've kept a grateful journal for over a year now.  Every day, I am faithful to list 5 things I am grateful for and MANY of them are good things I have learned as a direct result of being around a person like this.  And yes... .  many of those things I learned were incredibly painful.  I want to make sure I learn it and learn it well because I have no interest in repeating this kind of experience!

[myself]

"Wolves in sheeps clothing" is one I come back to with this.

"If it quacks like a duck, etc.", also.

But: If it quacks and walks like a duck, and is also a wolf in sheeps clothing?

That can lead to us being 'frogs in increasingly hotter pots of water'.

"Seeing is believing", though. Good for us, we saw it!

(Grandma also said: ":)on't let the door hit you on the a$$ on your way out".)

[TeaAmongRoses]

Hi Turtle



Long time no see! I'm sorry to hear about the encounter with your ex. Sounded like you handled it very well. Time really helps us forget how awful the past was. You have moved on so successfully. Yet when face to face again (or voice to ear, being that it was on the phone) no doubt brought back a lot of memories.

It is natural to be curious and that's the worst part about no contact - not knowing if the person has grown, changed, moved on.

VERY occasionally I try and find out how my ex is faring but I'm afraid the abusive types don't leave a lot of traces of themselves on the internet so I can't find out other than professionally. I suspect like your ex, my ex has not improved either.

What an awful reminder of a terrible chapter in your life. I'm glad he didn't harass you with multiple calls and other stalking behaviors this time. What a nightmare.

Glad to see you reaching out here. It has changed some but a lot is still the same! I see they've added a "man hug" but the puke face and blinking eyes are still great. So many super emoticons for a forum like this.

I'm really impressed, still, by the quality of the people who post. I'm still a big believer that "nons" are some of the most creative, patient, loving, thoughtful and self-aware folks out there.

So good to hear about your resilience and to see a familiar "face" Tea

[turtle]

Hi Tea!



So nice to "see" you!

You know... .  this encounter was just a blip on my radar.  However, if I had learned that he was in my city, I'm sure my reaction would have been much different. There was a moment - a brief moment - in all of this where I thought he was here -- in my city.  THAT was not cool. The primary emotion that I have for him is... .  will always be... .  FEAR.

Because I knew he wasn't in my State, I decided to engage.  I'm not sorry I did it, but I won't do it again.  It's pointless.

You are right... .  the abusive types learn how to live under the radar.  They are masters at it.  I remember so long ago trying to have him served... .  they could never find him... .  yet he could sure find ME!

I'm grateful he didn't start harrassing me too!  I had a couple of days where I was uncertain if he was going to escalate, but he didn't and I'm grateful for that.  And yes... .  it was an awful reminder. I have spent some time reliving certain horrors that I've managed to push to the back of my brain.  It's okay though.  The horrors are there.  They are a part of who I am, but they no longer define me.

Having this encounter made me renew my desire to want to help others (in any way I can) to see that they don't have to live with insanity.  They have a choice to make a better life and if I can do it... .  ANYONE can!

I agree about non's being awesome!  WE ARE!

Nice to "see" your familiar face too!  Thanks for stopping by to say 

[TeaAmongRoses]

Just curious - at what point did you find this board or a supportive network elsewhere? I didn't find it until AFTER we separated the final time. He told me after he had moved away that he identified with BPD. I looked it up and eventually found this forum.

Did you have a supportive network before you separated? Did you know of a label for his disorder while you were together?

How fortunate for others that you've heard a call to help. Congrats on giving back. T

[turtle]

Just curious - at what point did you find this board or a supportive network elsewhere? I didn't find it until AFTER we separated the final time. He told me after he had moved away that he identified with BPD. I looked it up and eventually found this forum.

Did you have a supportive network before you separated? Did you know of a label for his disorder while you were together?

How fortunate for others that you've heard a call to help. Congrats on giving back. T

I didn't find this board until 5 years after we had split.  He had been stalking me very heavily and that's what caused me to keep looking for help for HIM.  I had started seeing a new counselor to help me deal with the stress of dealing with him, and she's the one that threw out the term "borderline personality disorder."  That's when I found this place. It wasn't until I came here that I was able to deal with the stalking.  I hadn't had any luck through the authorities, because they could never find him.  Because of my ignorance, I was actually doing things (unknowingly) that were encouraging him to be so vigilant.  Once I came here, I got some very real feedback on what I was dealing with and it became very clear to me that I had to do things differently -- and that he wouldn't like it!

No... .  I had no label for his disorder while we were together and I never really did get a formal label.  There are many that could fit, so I often refer to it as a "pd du jour."  BPD definitely fits, but I think there are other disorders happening along with it. 

All I know is he is a tortured soul and I can't allow him to torture MY soul ever again. 

[TeaAmongRoses]

Turtle -

What a story you have. Your statement that you had to change your behavior and that he didn't like it. Five years after you split! I know standing my ground has been the hardest to learn but also the mos effective at getting them to stop 'bothering me'. I'm thinking of everyone I've had trouble with who've shown PD tendencies or abusive tendencies. Have to say learning this method now came in handy when I had to relearn again when my highly spirited (stubborn and creative) baby started running me ragged and exasperated. He LOVES the boundaries too once he knows we're standing firm.

Do you remember what specific things you started doing differently as a result of what you were learning (in therapy/on this board/ in books, etc)? My memory is pretty lousy (too many years under too much stress). I'm just curious. A lot of times it seems when we change our actions 'they' get pretty pissed because we're not taking their bait aymore. And boy the name calling, insults, etc can be pretty shocking to witness. It is also kind of empowering to see that we do have influence over what previously felt like nothing could help.

[turtle]

The one thing I changed that had the most impact and the most lasting impact was going NO CONTACT.  It is so contrary to my make up to do something like that - especially when someone is begging to be acknowledged.  It was hard.  SO HARD and it felt so wrong.

Of course, I had been told to do this by the Police, but it was sort of a flippant suggestion.  I would always say "okay," but then the barrage of calls would start. The Police weren't around to deal with 67 missed calls over a 3-4 hour period, or a voice mail box constantly filled with messages of begging, pleading, suicide threats, I love you's, I'll do anything... blah, blah, blah... .  which always turned into expletives, name calling, threats to harm me, etc., then of course right back to the begging, pleading, etc. It was exhausting and I didn't have a clue what to do!

Don't get me wrong... .  I'm grateful for the Police, but I think they deal with this kind of crap so much that it's just like saying "good morning."  They don't really notice that they have someone in front of them who is terrified and frozen like a deer in the headlights. And... .  I should have pressed charges for the incident in 11/01 and I didn't. That was the biggest mistake I've ever made (other than getting involved with him in the first place.)  Had I pressed charges, crazyx likely would have been in prison, and no longer free to do this kind of crap.  And at a minimum, had there been a record of that incident, I think the Police would have treated all of this very differently. 

Anyway... .  I would eventually give in and talk to crazyx because it seemed to help. Back then, I had no clue that is wasn't "helping," but it was actually harming... .  it was harming HIM and ME. It was clear to me that he needed help -- it was NOT clear to me that he didn't really WANT to be helped and that any help he got could not come from me, nor could it include me.

I was definitely afraid of him, but I hadn't yet realized that there was NOTHING I could do for him. Even though he had been physically violent with me, I still just didn't get it. I hadn't wrapped my brain around the idea that he was truly insane. I mean, I knew something was "off," but before I came here and started reading the stories of others and then telling my own, I just didn't have a clue what I was really dealing with.

After I went No Contact, things got worse. As you say... .  he got VERY pissed that I was no longer taking the bait.  So many things happened as a result of me going no contact that I can't even remember them anymore, but I do remember a few. I came home from work one day and things in my house had been moved. I moved nine times in 5 years because of him.  I knew enough to know that I didn't want him to know where I lived!  This happened after move #7. And... .  he wasn't even living in my State.  So... .  I knew I still had a serious problem!

There are many other instances like the one above that were so, so stressful.  Knowing that someone who is dangerous has found you is so unnerving.

I'm glad you're making boundaries with that high spirited baby.  It's good for you and it's definitely good for HIM!  I'm now a huge believer in boundaries!

It is also kind of empowering to see that we do have influence over what previously felt like nothing could help.

I totally agree with this!

[TeaAmongRoses]

I came home from work one day and things in my house had been moved.

I'm soo sorry! What an unnerving and horrible thing.

As far as my son, it is funny because I don't know how much of this stuff is genetic - but I am a little cautious with him just to be sure (he will be three in a few months). He is a relative from my husband's family. Ours was his 4th foster care placement family (all in the family) and that was at age 11 months. I know enough to realize that attachment issues are at the heart of a lot of PD, so I've been on alert with him for that kind of stuff. Fortunately he is very securely attached to us and never showed any attachement issues, at least not yet. The other thing is that PD runs in my hubby's family. They are unfortunately the anti-social types and his birth dad is also violent (and has fathered another 10 kids by other moms). So . . . I'm just being really cautious to teach him how to respect others and deal with not getting his needs met always. Like you, I'm committed to trying to make the world a better place BUILDING on the unfortunate experiences I've had.

Just a quick story from today. So, my hubby starts work at 6 a.m. and as often as possible takes our son to daycare first. That means a pretty early start. We haven't insisted he give up all bottles (his teethare healthy, he brushes, doesn't take sweened drinks in a bottle most of the time, and I figure if they can breast feed a bit for comfor as they get older, why can't they have a bottle for comfort too? once and a while).But, we do try and limit them. So this morning it was very early and of course he was sleepy. He started to whine when I told him just a sippy cup this morning with milk (no bottle).He tried to convince me to give him a bottle with just water, and when that didn't work,I offered him a blankie for comfort. That diverted his attention for abit while he got on his shoes and coat. Then he spotted some grahm crackers on the counter. He asked for those and was given to him. He held onto that cracher proudly. We were both proud of him for finding an alternative that we all found appropriate and without whining or crying. These little negotiations I think build a sense of control for him but also working appropriately within a group. I just realy want to help him become a sensitive, self assured, respectful functional person. I know it isn't all in my control as his mom, but I want to do my part. I could talk about him all day. I'm so in love. It is sickening!    

[TeaAmongRoses]

The one thing I changed that had the most impact and the most lasting impact was going NO CONTACT.  It is so contrary to my make up to do something like that - especially when someone is begging to be acknowledged.  It was hard.  SO HARD and it felt so wrong.

I LOVE how you remember not only how hard it was but how wrong it felt. So often what we must do is SOO incredibly counter intuitivive. Good for you for learning it. And yes, a good reminder to all to FILE CHARGES! I called the police once each on both of my exs and that was a huge wake-up call to them that I was serious. It really helped and getting the authorities involved when you are dealing with someone dangerous is very very smart. I'm sorry that didn't fully work out for you but maybe your story will inspire someone else to be able to.

[turtle]

I LOVE how you remember not only how hard it was but how wrong it felt. So often what we must do is SOO incredibly counter intuitivive. Good for you for learning it. And yes, a good reminder to all to FILE CHARGES! I called the police once each on both of my exs and that was a huge wake-up call to them that I was serious. It really helped and getting the authorities involved when you are dealing with someone dangerous is very very smart. I'm sorry that didn't fully work out for you but maybe your story will inspire someone else to be able to.

I hope my story does inspire someone else to FILE CHARGES! I called the Police on crazyx A LOT, but I never filed charges.  When that happens, it sends a message to the perpetrator that you don't mean it - that as soon as the Police leave, they can continue with their shenannigans - and they don't give one whit about the Police.  The Police mean NOTHING to them, so unless you press charges, you render the Police helpless.  It also sends a message to the Police that you aren't serious and that you are wasting their time.

When we are in the midst of this insanity, I don't think we realize how serious it can be, nor do we fully accept how far a mentally ill person will go!  I have no doubt that given the right circumstances, he would have killed me.  And it would have happened in a flash.

Before my involvement with the Police was over, I did have a conversation with a cop who hooked me up with a DV counselor.  That same cop also encouraged me to take self defense classes... .  which I did.

I'm so, so grateful that this is no longer my life.  Reliving all of this fills me with immense gratitude!

[thinkingthinking]

Thank you so much for sharing your story. 

I'm divorcing my BPDh of 22 years, and constantly question whether he is ever going to be able to function on his own.  I'm practically sunk emotionally and financially, but still worry about him and wonder if he will ever get better.

Your comment (below) just hits so close to home!

His "state" makes me sad. He will never be "okay." EVER.  And in that sadness... .  I am glad I saved myself.  He nearly ruined me financially and had I stayed, he would have killed me.  If not physically - mentally and emotionally.

At some point, we really do just have to let go and seek our own happiness.  Working on that... .  

[turtle]

At some point, we really do just have to let go and seek our own happiness.  Working on that... .  

Hi Kim0914!

It's a difficult process, but you can do it!  22 years is a long time to live in dysfunction!

Chances are, your husband won't ever be better than he is now and that is a hard pill to swallow when you've invested so much in him!

When I finally got out of the relationship, I wasn't even thinking about my happiness. In fact, I didn't even have a clue what happiness was anymore, I just wanted to survive... .  and I knew I couldn't do that as long as I stayed in the insanity.   

Hang in there!

Glad you're here!  You will find great support here!

turtle

[turtle]

As far as my son, it is funny because I don't know how much of this stuff is genetic - but I am a little cautious with him just to be sure (he will be three in a few months). He is a relative from my husband's family. Ours was his 4th foster care placement family (all in the family) and that was at age 11 months. I know enough to realize that attachment issues are at the heart of a lot of PD, so I've been on alert with him for that kind of stuff. Fortunately he is very securely attached to us and never showed any attachement issues, at least not yet. The other thing is that PD runs in my hubby's family. They are unfortunately the anti-social types and his birth dad is also violent (and has fathered another 10 kids by other moms). So . . . I'm just being really cautious to teach him how to respect others and deal with not getting his needs met always. Like you, I'm committed to trying to make the world a better place BUILDING on the unfortunate experiences I've had.

Just a quick story from today. So, my hubby starts work at 6 a.m. and as often as possible takes our son to daycare first. That means a pretty early start. We haven't insisted he give up all bottles (his teethare healthy, he brushes, doesn't take sweened drinks in a bottle most of the time, and I figure if they can breast feed a bit for comfor as they get older, why can't they have a bottle for comfort too? once and a while).But, we do try and limit them. So this morning it was very early and of course he was sleepy. He started to whine when I told him just a sippy cup this morning with milk (no bottle).He tried to convince me to give him a bottle with just water, and when that didn't work,I offered him a blankie for comfort. That diverted his attention for abit while he got on his shoes and coat. Then he spotted some grahm crackers on the counter. He asked for those and was given to him. He held onto that cracher proudly. We were both proud of him for finding an alternative that we all found appropriate and without whining or crying. These little negotiations I think build a sense of control for him but also working appropriately within a group. I just realy want to help him become a sensitive, self assured, respectful functional person. I know it isn't all in my control as his mom, but I want to do my part. I could talk about him all day. I'm so in love. It is sickening!    

Tea --- Somehow, I missed this post of yours.  What an amazing job you are doing with your little boy!  I'm so glad you are using the knowledge you have about mental disorders to aid you in raising this precious little child!

And what a gift you're giving him.  And being so in love is NOT sickening.  This is AWESOME!

[AllyCat7]

Hi turtle!

Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds harrowing! I feel like I can relate, as I dealt with a BPD rager, but, only for two years, although he has been stalking me for the last two years (not as bad as yours was, though). I understand what you are feeling when you finish dealing with him. I recall many conversations, after which I could literally feel my blood boiling and knew my blood pressure had gone up by probably 20 points. I used to throw my phone at the wall or on the floor after having finally ended phone calls with him. And then I would be so stressed that I would lay in bed just decompressing for at least 2 hours (which sucked considering our convos would usually go late into the night). He nearly ruined my completion of my Masters program and I let myself miss out on many opportunities due to him.

But like you, I'm not resentful. I feel sorry for him. I don't love him, though. It's hard to love the externalizers/ragers once things are over. They spew so much venom and do so much permanent damage. They think that just because they have not physically harmed someone that they have the right to be forgiven and accepted again with open arms. And we are too nice to let them, which they take advantage of. I'm glad you finally put your foot down. Like you, I didn't know how to deal with the stalking. He's still sort of doing it, although he denies it. I got a random call on my birthday in November (after 3 mos no contact). I stupidly answered, knowing it may be him, and it was. We had an ok convo. He followed it up with some emails. He had been begging me to meet up with him for several months since he moved into my city to be near me (after we broke up and I was repulsed by the thought of him... .  what an idiot). Anyway, I struck a deal with him. I told him I'd meet up with him if he promised never to contact me again. He has kept to his side of the bargain. I stupidly wished him a happy bday in December, after which he tried to reignite things, I declined, he spewed more venom. I have him blocked on cell phone and FB now. I plan on changing my number soon, too. I'm going to keep email lines open, though, because I feel that giving him that venue will give him less of a challenge--and be more likely to leave me alone. I told him this, too, but said to only email me in emergencies. So far, he hasn't initiated much.

Someone on another board once said that once you establish a deep connection with a BPD, they will be in your life forever. Once I read that, I realized that it may be true. I guess that's another thing we have to apply "radical acceptance" towards. It kind of sucks because it makes one feel so powerless--that we can't control who can be in our lives. But I guess it's a small price to pay for not having to live with that mess on a daily basis. It's so tricky dealing with them, though. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Anyway, sorry again for what you had to go through. I feel some of your pain (but definitely not the full extent). And also thanks for your advice. I'll keep it in mind in case mine decides to pull any more tricks in the future.

I have another BPDbf (on/off again) I'm dealing with, too... .  an internalizer/waif. I must say, they are just as crazy-making, but definitely more lovable. He has done his share of damage (cheating, lying), but he has never uttered a mean word to me in the last two years I've known him. Even if we stay as just friends or NC, I will always love him. They are crazy little angels, whereas the externalizers/ragers are crazy little devils . I hope to move on from both and find a normal little angel in the future :-)